Make healing scale with -only- max resources.

PuddingZebra · January 31

As the title suggests, Make any healing effect scale with your highest max resource. Similar to how healing proc-sets currently scale.

The goal here is to make builds diverse again.
Currently it's way too effective to just stack HP and high weapon dmg/spell dmg. Changing all healing to scale from max resources would incentivice players to build more balanced setups.
Actually having to choose between offense and defense, rather than the all-in-one package that HP and weapon/spell dmg currently provide.

To achieve this, I think there also has to be a pass at current HP-scaling heals or shields (i.e. polar wind/arctic wind, dark cloak, Arcanist and sorc shields)
In my opinion, changing the scaling on those abilities to follow the same ruling as any other heal, especially now with defile/vitality changes on the horizon, would make it way more consistent.

Jestir · January 31

Heals tend to scale with HP because they are intended for PvE tanks

If you saying only max stam/mag scaling then it's an awful idea

PuddingZebra · January 31

Bleakz wrote: »

Heals tend to scale with HP because they are intended for PvE tanks

If you saying only max stam/mag scaling then it's an awful idea

Fair point. I just feel like in most PvE activities requiring a tank, you'll also have a healer.
My main issue is that currently most builds do everything (DPS/Tanking/healing) by just stacking HP and wep/spell damage.
If tanks in pve have to focus on self-healing, then what's the healer doing?

Soarora · January 31

PuddingZebra wrote: »

Bleakz wrote: »

Heals tend to scale with HP because they are intended for PvE tanks

If you saying only max stam/mag scaling then it's an awful idea

Fair point. I just feel like in most PvE activities requiring a tank, you'll also have a healer.
My main issue is that currently most builds do everything (DPS/Tanking/healing) by just stacking HP and wep/spell damage.
If tanks in pve have to focus on self-healing, then what's the healer doing?

Healer is nonexistent (3dps run) or may be focused on the DPS. They still do need to heal the tank but with the amount of health tanks have it helps for a healer to have assistance. I think what’d help PvP is just make polar wind not heal anyone else. A tank isn’t a healer.

PuddingZebra · January 31

Soarora wrote: »

PuddingZebra wrote: »

Bleakz wrote: »

Heals tend to scale with HP because they are intended for PvE tanks

If you saying only max stam/mag scaling then it's an awful idea

Fair point. I just feel like in most PvE activities requiring a tank, you'll also have a healer.
My main issue is that currently most builds do everything (DPS/Tanking/healing) by just stacking HP and wep/spell damage.
If tanks in pve have to focus on self-healing, then what's the healer doing?

Healer is nonexistent (3dps run) or may be focused on the DPS. They still do need to heal the tank but with the amount of health tanks have it helps for a healer to have assistance. I think what’d help PvP is just make polar wind not heal anyone else. A tank isn’t a healer.

Doesn't that sound like an issue though? the fact healers are not needed?

Soarora · January 31

PuddingZebra wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

PuddingZebra wrote: »

Bleakz wrote: »

Heals tend to scale with HP because they are intended for PvE tanks

If you saying only max stam/mag scaling then it's an awful idea

Fair point. I just feel like in most PvE activities requiring a tank, you'll also have a healer.
My main issue is that currently most builds do everything (DPS/Tanking/healing) by just stacking HP and wep/spell damage.
If tanks in pve have to focus on self-healing, then what's the healer doing?

Healer is nonexistent (3dps run) or may be focused on the DPS. They still do need to heal the tank but with the amount of health tanks have it helps for a healer to have assistance. I think what’d help PvP is just make polar wind not heal anyone else. A tank isn’t a healer.

Doesn't that sound like an issue though? the fact healers are not needed?

It is but taking away a tank’s ability to heal themselves wouldn’t bring healers back. Would just use shields or use heals anyways. Places where there’s enough damage that healing is really necessary its more common to have a healer. Like ERE HM last boss cone, or first boss healcheck. I can heal myself through it sometimes but a healer really helps.

Jestir · January 31

PuddingZebra wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

PuddingZebra wrote: »

Bleakz wrote: »

Heals tend to scale with HP because they are intended for PvE tanks

If you saying only max stam/mag scaling then it's an awful idea

Fair point. I just feel like in most PvE activities requiring a tank, you'll also have a healer.
My main issue is that currently most builds do everything (DPS/Tanking/healing) by just stacking HP and wep/spell damage.
If tanks in pve have to focus on self-healing, then what's the healer doing?

Healer is nonexistent (3dps run) or may be focused on the DPS. They still do need to heal the tank but with the amount of health tanks have it helps for a healer to have assistance. I think what’d help PvP is just make polar wind not heal anyone else. A tank isn’t a healer.

Doesn't that sound like an issue though? the fact healers are not needed?

It's kinda why the role being called "healer" in ESO is kinda wrong, their primary role is as a "support" providing buffs, healing is incredibly easy with how the game is built and in easier content as long as no one stands in stupid obviously, a dedicated healer just isn't needed

Palumtra · January 31

The group brings 1-2 resto staves with the 2 HoT heals , 1 burst heal from class for self and your healing needs are pretty much covered, depending on the content and setup you might want dispel which you can get from alliance tree. As a tank you have Overflowing Altar from Undaunted that practically costs nothingh and, adds minor lifesteal and heals for a flat 2/3rd max HP with the synergy. The rest can be easly covered with HoTs and 1-2 sustain skils from class. It also helps if the group is rolling out of damage circles for sure.
Self sustain isn't a problem for most tanks anyway, obviously Dk is in the best spot because of the luxurious kit is posseses towards tanking.

AcadianPaladin · February 1

Yes, yes. Let's nerf tanks and healers. . . because we have too many of them and not enough dd's?

Who cares if one player can do it all? That's called solo play and it is massively popular. I spend about 95% of my time solo so I have to tank, heal and do damage. If you try too hard to force a trinity role, you will alienate and risk losing a large number of solo players.

Nihilr · February 1

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Yes, yes. Let's nerf tanks and healers. . . because we have too many of them and not enough dd's?

Who cares if one player can do it all? That's called solo play and it is massively popular. I spend about 95% of my time solo so I have to tank, heal and do damage. If you try too hard to force a trinity role, you will alienate and risk losing a large number of solo players.

No I think the point is that it keeps solo players from being jack of all trades in PvP, it's sorta broken. Like if you have healing+defense+damage you should do 80% of all 3 compared to someone focused all on one or 90% of 2 only.

The rest of the game can easily be scaled to account for the trinity rebalance. And for players who want to minmax, they can, and it'll be more challenging, but the game can still be balanced mostly towards those who want to be jack of all trades (the 80%'ers).

bar_boss_A · February 1

changing heals to scale with max res only (health included) will not be a nerf to healers and tanks in pvE, as they have an abundance of their respective resource (tanks health/ healer magicka). It would be a nerf to PvP self heals as this is the only game mode ppl are running with ~10k max res and thus would drastically reduce the amounts of HoTs being useful/potent enough to use.

BejaProphet · February 2

This would be yet another punch in the gut for PvE tanks for the sake of PvP. We tanks have to be able to survive without a healer.

They need to be willing to have abilities function differently in the two types of play. We can’t take anymore tank nerfs because PvP balance.

valenwood_vegan · February 2

Fix the problem in pvp then. No matter what they do someone will be back here tomorrow demanding that something else be reworked and nerfed because pvp. Balance it separately already. Stop messing with the rest of the game. There is such a thing as solo arenas and solo play and this does require builds that can do it all.

Braffin · February 2

PuddingZebra wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

PuddingZebra wrote: »

Bleakz wrote: »

Heals tend to scale with HP because they are intended for PvE tanks

If you saying only max stam/mag scaling then it's an awful idea

Fair point. I just feel like in most PvE activities requiring a tank, you'll also have a healer.
My main issue is that currently most builds do everything (DPS/Tanking/healing) by just stacking HP and wep/spell damage.
If tanks in pve have to focus on self-healing, then what's the healer doing?

Healer is nonexistent (3dps run) or may be focused on the DPS. They still do need to heal the tank but with the amount of health tanks have it helps for a healer to have assistance. I think what’d help PvP is just make polar wind not heal anyone else. A tank isn’t a healer.

Doesn't that sound like an issue though? the fact healers are not needed?

Healers are needed tho.

Sure, actual dedicated healing isn't required most of the time (was always the case in eso), but healers are important for providing buffs to the whole group, debuffing the enemies, helping out with doing dps and of course emergency healing if something goes south.

Eso provides fast-paced combat for it's playerbase (if you don't only cheese around in overland/normal mode but play a difficulty fitting your skill) and honestly, I never heard one of our healers complain, that there is nothing to do for them when playing challenging content like vet hm trials.

Braffin · February 2

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

If you try too hard to force a trinity role, you will alienate and risk losing a large number of solo players.

Just to add: Not only solo players would be alienated by enforced trinity roles. A lot of group players in eso specifically prefer this game above other mmos for the freedom of choice regarding builds and role distribution.

Playing traditional roles should always be possible, if the group decides to do so, but never mandatory. No need for taking away options, as playing traditional is already possible.

Derka · February 2

BejaProphet wrote: »

We tanks have to be able to survive without a healer.

Why? It's PvE. Find a healer for your group.

BejaProphet · February 3

Derka wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

We tanks have to be able to survive without a healer.

Why? It's PvE. Find a healer for your group.

Said like somebody without tanking experience. But ok, here is the first three reasons that come to mind.

1.). Healers die. Today I random group finder’d unhallowed grave on HM. Healer went down about eight times having never seen the fight. I never did. At one point it was just me. I revived a player and we rallied to get HM clear.

2.). Some mechanics split the group and DD’s have less chance to survive so they get the heals.

3.). When using random group finder, DD’s often select healer to avoid wait time and so the group has no healer.

A successful tank in ESO must be able to keep themselves alive. I WANT a healer. It makes my life tremendously easier. But I can’t afford to NEED a healer. And I dang sure don’t need to loose it for the sake of PvP when no matter what you change those elite guys are just going to find the next broken thing and then the forums will be crying about that. You have no idea how many times PvE tanks have been nerfed the past decade because of crying that people were to hard to kill In Cyrodiil.

sneakymitchell · February 3

Only reason to run medium is cause of getting more boost to heal. Light armor is fine and most burst heals comes from magic. Well till scribing clmes

Zodiarkslayer · February 3

Another point where PvE and PvP are incompatible.

In PvE healing is fine. You need to be versatile as a healer/support. And the self healing is a requirement for most players. As they are experiencing ESO SOLO.

In PvP there is no serious punishing mechanism to health and armor stacking. The problem lies there.

Avran_Sylt · February 5

Why not make Spell Resistance reduce non-potion healing received in PvP land?

edward_frigidhands · February 7

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Another point where PvE and PvP are incompatible.

In PvE healing is fine. You need to be versatile as a healer/support. And the self healing is a requirement for most players. As they are experiencing ESO SOLO.

In PvP there is no serious punishing mechanism to health and armor stacking. The problem lies there.

The punishment is your damage suffers.

Same as any other part of the game.

Damage in a standard Cyrodil battle is so high that a balance of health, armor and damage is necessary to succeed.

Unfortunately this will means that damage is missing in those select few small scale engagements and tower pvp that the game is not balanced around (and should not).

PvP is just like any other part of the game. You make choices that affect how you play and the same applies to your opponent.

Unfortunately choices have consequences and result in you being better at some things and worse at others.

This should not be such a difficult thing to understand.

xylena_lazarow · February 7

This would be a terrible change for solo/pug/zerg PvP, further widening the gap between groups with dedicated healers and everyone else. Players need self sustain, trying to force the "trinity" onto open world PvP would completely kill it.

Tyrant_Tim · February 13

I’ve been saying for forever that this is the answer.

Back in the day heals used to scale more heavily with your max resource, and as a result, people would invest more into those than health.

Tanks should not be able to heal and do damage.
Healers should not be able to tank and do damage.
Damage Dealers should not be able to tank and heal.

When you have players capable of doing all three of these simultaneously, it invalidates other roles, and creates never-ending fights, or extremely slanted ones, never in-between.

Players should be proficient at one role, decent at another, and lacking the third, and that is the only way there will ever be balance in ESO.

edward_frigidhands · February 14

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Tanks should not be able to heal and do damage.

Healers should not be able to tank and do damage.

Damage Dealers should not be able to tank and heal.

When you have players capable of doing all three of these simultaneously, it invalidates other roles, and creates never-ending fights, or extremely slanted ones, never in-between.

None of this is happening though. Tanks are unable to heal others (unless you are referencing a specific ability or unintended set interaction here) or do damage, healers are unable to tank or do damage and damage dealers are unable to heal or tank.

What is happening is that people are making choices the game allows them to make. Damage dealers are able to sacrifice damage stats and abilities, healers sacrifice healing abilities and stats and tanks sacrifice survivability. They do these in order to be able to be better at other things.

Yes this creates hybrid builds at times that sometimes work very well for certain situations like small scale 1vX or tower PvP against people who have not built in a balanced way themselves.

What is happening is that the game allows you to build the character you want by sacrificing the things you are willing to in favor of things you would like.

What you are asking for is an elimination of this system of choice simply because (in my opinion) you are running into builds in small scale PvP where there is ample Line Of Sight that don't result in an instant resolution or victory.

That is not what ESO or ESO PvP is about. The game is not balanced around small scale 1vX line of sight PvP and it is not balanced around tower engagements in Cyro. Nor should it be.

The game is balanced around something simpler like building the character you want based on the character/playstyle fantasy that you have in mind for a specific toon.

Are there times when this doesn't work well? Yes. The ballgroups we see running around having both healing and mobility employing line of sight to survive is one such example. The solution is not throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

I think a good solution would be something along the lines of having both Stamina and Magicka provide bonuses to damage but Stamina contributing to mobility and Magicka being the only stat contributing to healing. Health based heals do not normally heal others and are more a part of the Tank survivability kit like block or damage mitigation. Health based heals that heal others should be changed to be brought in line with other Tank survivability tools.

moderatelyfatman · February 29

PuddingZebra wrote: »

As the title suggests, Make any healing effect scale with your highest max resource. Similar to how healing proc-sets currently scale.

The goal here is to make builds diverse again.
Currently it's way too effective to just stack HP and high weapon dmg/spell dmg. Changing all healing to scale from max resources would incentivice players to build more balanced setups.
Actually having to choose between offense and defense, rather than the all-in-one package that HP and weapon/spell dmg currently provide.

To achieve this, I think there also has to be a pass at current HP-scaling heals or shields (i.e. polar wind/arctic wind, dark cloak, Arcanist and sorc shields)
In my opinion, changing the scaling on those abilities to follow the same ruling as any other heal, especially now with defile/vitality changes on the horizon, would make it way more consistent.

Why not just increase the cost of these skills to prevent tanks from spamming the abilities?

Jestir · March 1

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

PuddingZebra wrote: »

As the title suggests, Make any healing effect scale with your highest max resource. Similar to how healing proc-sets currently scale.

The goal here is to make builds diverse again.
Currently it's way too effective to just stack HP and high weapon dmg/spell dmg. Changing all healing to scale from max resources would incentivice players to build more balanced setups.
Actually having to choose between offense and defense, rather than the all-in-one package that HP and weapon/spell dmg currently provide.

To achieve this, I think there also has to be a pass at current HP-scaling heals or shields (i.e. polar wind/arctic wind, dark cloak, Arcanist and sorc shields)
In my opinion, changing the scaling on those abilities to follow the same ruling as any other heal, especially now with defile/vitality changes on the horizon, would make it way more consistent.

Why not just increase the cost of these skills to prevent tanks from spamming the abilities?

Or something revolutionary like say a short cool down for certain skills when battle spirit is active

universal_wrath · March 5

Jestir wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

PuddingZebra wrote: »

As the title suggests, Make any healing effect scale with your highest max resource. Similar to how healing proc-sets currently scale.

The goal here is to make builds diverse again.
Currently it's way too effective to just stack HP and high weapon dmg/spell dmg. Changing all healing to scale from max resources would incentivice players to build more balanced setups.
Actually having to choose between offense and defense, rather than the all-in-one package that HP and weapon/spell dmg currently provide.

To achieve this, I think there also has to be a pass at current HP-scaling heals or shields (i.e. polar wind/arctic wind, dark cloak, Arcanist and sorc shields)
In my opinion, changing the scaling on those abilities to follow the same ruling as any other heal, especially now with defile/vitality changes on the horizon, would make it way more consistent.

Why not just increase the cost of these skills to prevent tanks from spamming the abilities?

Or something revolutionary like say a short cool down for certain skills when battle spirit is active

No please, this will make will furthur induce people to build more tanky to be avle to survive said cool down.

I suggest like what OP said, dmg skills use weapon/spell dmg, regular healing abilities use max stamin/magicka, and tank healing use max health to scale the power of said skills.

If you want to mix and match stats for skills, you can tweak that skills in a way so they have diminshing returns if you rely solely on one stat while ignoring the other stat like how sorcerers use max magicka only to boost their shields.

bachpain · March 6

All of the PVE vs PVE arguments could be fixed with the implementation of being only while battle spirit is active.

moo_2021 · March 7

what should shield scale with?

the1andonlyskwex · March 7

universal_wrath wrote: »

Jestir wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

PuddingZebra wrote: »

As the title suggests, Make any healing effect scale with your highest max resource. Similar to how healing proc-sets currently scale.

The goal here is to make builds diverse again.
Currently it's way too effective to just stack HP and high weapon dmg/spell dmg. Changing all healing to scale from max resources would incentivice players to build more balanced setups.
Actually having to choose between offense and defense, rather than the all-in-one package that HP and weapon/spell dmg currently provide.

To achieve this, I think there also has to be a pass at current HP-scaling heals or shields (i.e. polar wind/arctic wind, dark cloak, Arcanist and sorc shields)
In my opinion, changing the scaling on those abilities to follow the same ruling as any other heal, especially now with defile/vitality changes on the horizon, would make it way more consistent.

Why not just increase the cost of these skills to prevent tanks from spamming the abilities?

Or something revolutionary like say a short cool down for certain skills when battle spirit is active

No please, this will make will furthur induce people to build more tanky to be avle to survive said cool down.

I suggest like what OP said, dmg skills use weapon/spell dmg, regular healing abilities use max stamin/magicka, and tank healing use max health to scale the power of said skills.

If you want to mix and match stats for skills, you can tweak that skills in a way so they have diminshing returns if you rely solely on one stat while ignoring the other stat like how sorcerers use max magicka only to boost their shields.

Heals that scale with max health are a way bigger problem in PvP than heals that scale with damage stats. Building for tanking and building for healing need to be separate or every fight turns into a stalemate.

universal_wrath · March 7

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

Jestir wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

PuddingZebra wrote: »

As the title suggests, Make any healing effect scale with your highest max resource. Similar to how healing proc-sets currently scale.

The goal here is to make builds diverse again.
Currently it's way too effective to just stack HP and high weapon dmg/spell dmg. Changing all healing to scale from max resources would incentivice players to build more balanced setups.
Actually having to choose between offense and defense, rather than the all-in-one package that HP and weapon/spell dmg currently provide.

To achieve this, I think there also has to be a pass at current HP-scaling heals or shields (i.e. polar wind/arctic wind, dark cloak, Arcanist and sorc shields)
In my opinion, changing the scaling on those abilities to follow the same ruling as any other heal, especially now with defile/vitality changes on the horizon, would make it way more consistent.

Why not just increase the cost of these skills to prevent tanks from spamming the abilities?

Or something revolutionary like say a short cool down for certain skills when battle spirit is active

No please, this will make will furthur induce people to build more tanky to be avle to survive said cool down.

I suggest like what OP said, dmg skills use weapon/spell dmg, regular healing abilities use max stamin/magicka, and tank healing use max health to scale the power of said skills.

If you want to mix and match stats for skills, you can tweak that skills in a way so they have diminshing returns if you rely solely on one stat while ignoring the other stat like how sorcerers use max magicka only to boost their shields.

Heals that scale with max health are a way bigger problem in PvP than heals that scale with damage stats. Building for tanking and building for healing need to be separate or every fight turns into a stalemate.

It shouldn't be a problem with caping max HP heal to something like 30-35% of missing health or like remove max HP burst heals and make them hots.