Can we talk about the fact that the current meta is killing the game?

Ren_TheRedFox · January 24

Ever since we got all the fancy arena weapons and monster sets (Vateshran ice staff, master dual wield, balorghs, and many other weapons), there is literally no class identity anymore. Every other player in PvP has both weapons equipped and there is no way to get away with it unless you use the same setup. I've literally tried other setups to counter them, but most of the time you spend either removing all DoTs or healing yourself. Don't even get me started on all the 40k+ tanks in PvP with unlimited damage and 0 damage taken .... Seriously... what's going on here? Has everyone given up on their skills and become a meta bot that just follows the meta and has no creativity?

Pixiepumpkin · January 24

Sadly, your post will not get the exposure it deserves. I imagine this will be moved to the PVP forums soon.

This is what I dislike about ESO pvp, its not about skill, its about cheese builds and its hard to read the playfield and counter opponents. There is no cat and mouse.

In wow, I always knew how to counter whatever class I was facing. Visually I could tell what the class was, and after a mild engagement I could tell what tree they were. This always helped me do well in that PVP setting.

In ESO, there is little to no what to tell what you are up against, and most of the time its some cheese build.

Watch a WOW arena tournament. The announcers can call out what is about to happen, or what spell someone should have used to counter XYZ...its interesting stuff. You can't do that in ESO, there is no way to predict what your enemy is using and therefore no way to counter.

ESO pvp is just so bland because of this. I never understood the fascination.

El_Borracho · January 24

Well, this is what you get when there are constant demands to nerf whatever is currently effective. Oh, the irony.

The better route would be to demand other sets and classes get buffed to counter the meta-du-jour. Like when werewolves were viable, templars did more than spam Jesus beam, sorcs wore more than a magic ring, and necros didn't do their best imitation of corpses. But that would lead to more kills in PVP, by [GASP] players who don't commit their entire lives to playing PVP. Wearing proc sets, no less! Which really, really, really upsets the PVP world.

exoib · January 24

it is what it is, I've done a post before on this and the "undeath" passive killing the essence of PvP and reason people don't participate

karthrag_inak · January 24

Man, this one has heard of so many things 'killing the game' over the past 10 years that he has become convinced this game has more lives than a whole clowder of khajiit.

Yes, a clowder.

Pixiepumpkin · January 24

^
To be fair, the PVP population is not healthy, not in comparision to ESO's contemporaries.
Secondly, I'd argue the overall population is not as healthy as advertised. I was in queue for 47 minutes last night on a level 17 tank for a random dungeon with 1 DPS party member.

You mean to tell me that there is no one running dungeons sub 50 during prime time hours who need a tank?

ya....not buying it.

LadyLavina · January 24

@Ren_TheRedFox ohai, y u no like pvp tanks?

I kid of course, as you and i discussed this is basically why i gave up on that dps dk very quickly lol

ItsNotLiving · January 24

Deleting the undeath passive and removing hybridization (even if it’s through battle spirit) would help the game immensely. Proc sets aren’t as bad when half of them are mag and half are stam you could at least limit them then.

itsfatbass · January 24

Elder Bland Online; this hybridization has a bigger impact on PvP, but has made PvE pretty boring too. Build diversity? Nope you've got about 5 sets to choose from and they can be used on either mag or stam setups. The arcanist certainly brought some new skills diversity to the game, but they're still stuck wearing the same 5 sets. So much for play it your way I guess.

Ren_TheRedFox · January 24

it's just sad tbh literally everyone's running the same setup ... at this point it feels as much boring as parsing down a target dummy

Tandor · January 24

karthrag_inak wrote: »

<snip>. Man, this one has heard of so many things 'killing the game' over the past 10 years <snip>

And it always turns out to be just about PvP...

Then PvPers complain when it gets moved to the PvP forum...

OsUfi · January 24

Tandor wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

<snip>. Man, this one has heard of so many things 'killing the game' over the past 10 years <snip>

And it always turns out to be just about PvP...

Then PvPers complain when it gets moved to the PvP forum...

Utter rubbish. The PvErs have their fair share of "killing the game" threads.

El_Borracho · January 24

OsUfi wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

<snip>. Man, this one has heard of so many things 'killing the game' over the past 10 years <snip>

And it always turns out to be just about PvP...

Then PvPers complain when it gets moved to the PvP forum...

Utter rubbish. The PvErs have their fair share of "killing the game" threads.

You mean the handful of people who get angry when another player's DPS is higher than their own DPS? Those usually get shut down because the volume of mocking replies they receive.

And the outrageous demands from PVE peeps are for MORE sets to use, not to continually destroy effective ones. Would be nice if Balorgh was useful in some way in PVE. Will never happen, but that's not because PVEers are against it. Kind of like when Zaan was a solid PVE option, until those PVEers complained...

Tannus15 · January 24

PVE asks for buffs
PVP asks for nerfs

ZhuJiuyin · January 25

Tannus15 wrote: »

PVE asks for buffs
PVP asks for nerfs

I think we are asking for the same thing: diversity and balance
But both are bad now.

Ilumia · January 25

I know it's probably too complex, buy I still wish pve and pvp were seperated into two different things in terms of balancing. Then two different ways teams could work on how to make skills, gears and stuff suited/balanced and fun for their respective category without fear of breaking the other game mode.

IncultaWolf · January 25

exoib wrote: »

it is what it is, I've done a post before on this and the "undeath" passive killing the essence of PvP and reason people don't participate

Undeath in my opinion is the #1 cause of all these issues in pvp, free unique 30% mitigation with basically zero drawbacks, sustain is so easy to get and the fire damage taken isn't noticeable. It's literally a requirement on any competitive pvp build now to be a vampire stage 3. And people only have vamp for this one overtuned passive alone. So much for build diversity..

francesinhalover · January 25

Killing pvp*

Eso , you could remove pvp and the game would still be full of players. Maybe even more.

Vampire needs a rework tho

katanagirl1 · January 25

IncultaWolf wrote: »

exoib wrote: »

it is what it is, I've done a post before on this and the "undeath" passive killing the essence of PvP and reason people don't participate

Undeath in my opinion is the #1 cause of all these issues in pvp, free unique 30% mitigation with basically zero drawbacks, sustain is so easy to get and the fire damage taken isn't noticeable. It's literally a requirement on any competitive pvp build now to be a vampire stage 3. And people only have vamp for this one overtuned passive alone. So much for build diversity..

This must be why I struggle with my dk in Cyro. I don’t want anything to do with vampire stuff.

Vulkunne · January 25

IncultaWolf wrote: »

exoib wrote: »

it is what it is, I've done a post before on this and the "undeath" passive killing the essence of PvP and reason people don't participate

Undeath in my opinion is the #1 cause of all these issues in pvp, free unique 30% mitigation with basically zero drawbacks, sustain is so easy to get and the fire damage taken isn't noticeable. It's literally a requirement on any competitive pvp build now to be a vampire stage 3. And people only have vamp for this one overtuned passive alone. So much for build diversity..

So about undeath... its something but I think if you run the numbers, it may not actually help as much as it might seem to. Personally, I'd rather have unmitigated Health Recovery, which Battle Spirit now cuts that in half. And then WW form seems to experience lots of problems, I've gotten locked into WW form several times during BGs and it sucked.

But Vamp does seem to noticeably take more damage from fire artillery damage and even with undeath, if there's no healing you're still going to die fast. I've just seen this happen way too many times and I really don't think undeath comes even close to making up for lack of health recovery. Or greater health recovery, I know depending on vamp level you can get a cut of it but not the same as the full deal.

Arcanasx · January 25

Vulkunne wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

exoib wrote: »

it is what it is, I've done a post before on this and the "undeath" passive killing the essence of PvP and reason people don't participate

Undeath in my opinion is the #1 cause of all these issues in pvp, free unique 30% mitigation with basically zero drawbacks, sustain is so easy to get and the fire damage taken isn't noticeable. It's literally a requirement on any competitive pvp build now to be a vampire stage 3. And people only have vamp for this one overtuned passive alone. So much for build diversity..

I'd rather have unmitigated Health Recovery, which Battle Spirit now cuts that in half.

This is one of the reasons why undeath is as strong as it is right now...investing into health recovery is inefficient as it gets cut in half for PvP.

StaticWave · January 25

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

Ever since we got all the fancy arena weapons and monster sets (Vateshran ice staff, master dual wield, balorghs, and many other weapons), there is literally no class identity anymore. Every other player in PvP has both weapons equipped and there is no way to get away with it unless you use the same setup. I've literally tried other setups to counter them, but most of the time you spend either removing all DoTs or healing yourself. Don't even get me started on all the 40k+ tanks in PvP with unlimited damage and 0 damage taken .... Seriously... what's going on here? Has everyone given up on their skills and become a meta bot that just follows the meta and has no creativity?

It's not that everyone has given up on their skills and become a meta bot. People naturally will want to min-max everything and find the best build. Back then, each class had a specific BiS build. Now, every class runs the same BiS build. Theorycrafting has become so stale because no other option can come close to these in terms of effectiveness and ease of use. Why would you run Impregnable Armor and Briarheart when Rallying Cry does both for only 5 gear slots? Why would you run Venomous Smite when Master DW or Vate Ice do the same and only require 2 gear slot.

Hybridization added to the problem to some degree, but I think the lack of usable sets is still the main factor. ZOS has nerfed old sets and never updated them to fit the new meta. They could simply change a few numbers on those sets and we would instantly see more diversity, but that hasn't been done for how long now?

Ren_TheRedFox · January 25

Hybridisation literally destroyed any kind of balance in this game .... I was making a build yesterday and was like "Oh wait I need to increase my weapon damage to get a higher tooltip" and realised again ... wait hybridisation exists ... no reason to worry about that anymore .... literally biggest mistake in the history of eso to give us the hybridisation ...

olsborg · January 25

Cant agree more.

ArchMikem · January 25

katanagirl1 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

exoib wrote: »

it is what it is, I've done a post before on this and the "undeath" passive killing the essence of PvP and reason people don't participate

Undeath in my opinion is the #1 cause of all these issues in pvp, free unique 30% mitigation with basically zero drawbacks, sustain is so easy to get and the fire damage taken isn't noticeable. It's literally a requirement on any competitive pvp build now to be a vampire stage 3. And people only have vamp for this one overtuned passive alone. So much for build diversity..

This must be why I struggle with my dk in Cyro. I don’t want anything to do with vampire stuff.

My StamDK is "trying" to be a DoT Build. Masters Dual Wield, Swamp Raider, and Deadly Strike. Yet for some reason even with 17k resists unbuffed I get hit HARD, my self healing is terrible, my Health pool is terrible, and my sustain is terrible. I tried building for damage and I ended up an extreme glass cannon that somehow still doesn't even hurt most of those Meta builds running around 1vXing everyone.

This thread brings me some ease knowing there are more than me seeing the disease (yes, I'm calling it a disease at this point) that has infected PvP. There is NO "play your own way" in this game. You either copy the Meta builds and be a part of the problem where at least you're winning, or you build how you want, and watch yourself get steamrolled by seemingly untouchable, invincible players. Players that SOMEHOW over mitigate your attacks, spam self heals, never run out of resources, and hit like trucks all at once. This is what drives players away from PvP, they don't want to deal with this. They see these insurmountable odds and they log off frustrated and angry, then you have the full-time PvPers wondering where the food went.

Tyrant_Tim · January 25

ArchMikem wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

exoib wrote: »

it is what it is, I've done a post before on this and the "undeath" passive killing the essence of PvP and reason people don't participate

Undeath in my opinion is the #1 cause of all these issues in pvp, free unique 30% mitigation with basically zero drawbacks, sustain is so easy to get and the fire damage taken isn't noticeable. It's literally a requirement on any competitive pvp build now to be a vampire stage 3. And people only have vamp for this one overtuned passive alone. So much for build diversity..

This must be why I struggle with my dk in Cyro. I don’t want anything to do with vampire stuff.

My StamDK is "trying" to be a DoT Build. Masters Dual Wield, Swamp Raider, and Deadly Strike. Yet for some reason even with 17k resists unbuffed I get hit HARD, my self healing is terrible, my Health pool is terrible, and my sustain is terrible. I tried building for damage and I ended up an extreme glass cannon that somehow still doesn't even hurt most of those Meta builds running around 1vXing everyone.

Try Dragon’s Appetite with Essence Thief instead of Deadly and Raider, you’ll have much better results.

Most sets in the game look great on paper for certain builds but do absolutely nothing, and the problem with your build is you’re trying to multiply small numbers with Deadly, which results in slightly larger small numbers, and Swamp Raider provides nothing for your healing or your damage on your DK ultimates.

ArchMikem · January 25

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

exoib wrote: »

it is what it is, I've done a post before on this and the "undeath" passive killing the essence of PvP and reason people don't participate

Undeath in my opinion is the #1 cause of all these issues in pvp, free unique 30% mitigation with basically zero drawbacks, sustain is so easy to get and the fire damage taken isn't noticeable. It's literally a requirement on any competitive pvp build now to be a vampire stage 3. And people only have vamp for this one overtuned passive alone. So much for build diversity..

This must be why I struggle with my dk in Cyro. I don’t want anything to do with vampire stuff.

My StamDK is "trying" to be a DoT Build. Masters Dual Wield, Swamp Raider, and Deadly Strike. Yet for some reason even with 17k resists unbuffed I get hit HARD, my self healing is terrible, my Health pool is terrible, and my sustain is terrible. I tried building for damage and I ended up an extreme glass cannon that somehow still doesn't even hurt most of those Meta builds running around 1vXing everyone.

Try Dragon’s Appetite with Essence Thief instead of Deadly and Raider, you’ll have much better results.

Most sets in the game look great on paper for certain builds but do absolutely nothing, and the problem with your build is you’re trying to multiply small numbers with Deadly, which results in slightly larger small numbers, and Swamp Raider provides nothing for your healing or your damage on your DK ultimates.

I've seen others suggest the same sets before, and I think that perfectly proves the OP's point in this thread funnily enough.

Tyrant_Tim · January 25

Here’s to hoping Update 41 finally adds a weapon/spell damage multiplier for Master’s and Vateshran’s instead of the flat damage they do regardless.

Honestly, every arena weapon other than Restoration Staves and Sword and Shield should follow suit.

Kalle_Demos · January 25

El_Borracho wrote: »

Well, this is what you get when there are constant demands to nerf whatever is currently effective. Oh, the irony.

The better route would be to demand other sets and classes get buffed to counter the meta-du-jour. Like when werewolves were viable, templars did more than spam Jesus beam, sorcs wore more than a magic ring, and necros didn't do their best imitation of corpses. But that would lead to more kills in PVP, by [GASP] players who don't commit their entire lives to playing PVP. Wearing proc sets, no less! Which really, really, really upsets the PVP world.

RoxyPhoenix · January 25

-Imagine ESO pvp as a vast forest jungle. You got hundreds, if not thousands of plant species living in it, all specially adapted to their role in this ecosystem. Some exceed at retaining water, some at gathering light, some thrive at more rocky terrain and some in swampy mud pockets, they all co-exist because they are all good at what they do.
- Now imagine you cut all the big trees cus they take most of the light, then you take away all the smaller trees cus there are to many of them, and then you get rid of bushes and ferns cus they obstruct the terrain. After that its time for moss and forest litter to go cus they consume too much water, and you keep doing that with every species only because it has a distinctive advantage over others.
- You are left now with only a few, selected superplants that can survive in set conditions. There is no bio-diversity, there is no forest. All in the name of BALANCE. - welcome to ESO pvp.

Trejgon · January 25

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

^
Secondly, I'd argue the overall population is not as healthy as advertised. I was in queue for 47 minutes last night on a level 17 tank for a random dungeon with 1 DPS party member.

You mean to tell me that there is no one running dungeons sub 50 during prime time hours who need a tank?

ya....not buying it.

Last time I checked there was a known issue with RND MM that it would get stuck if you queue in a group with a tank or healer as the group leader. I am not aware of ZOS ever fixing that one.

Additionally some time ago there was also an issue with RND MM completely dying, and being unable to make any teams from anything else than full party, but I'd imagine if that was not yet fixed we'd see much much more complaints about that on forums and reddit, so I guess that particular issue was fixed?