Rush of Agony needs a rework

OnGodiDoDis

Yes, the title is correct. I will begin by stating something I've been saying for years and it must be held as the foundation for all non-class skills and proc sets: auxiliary skills and proc sets should never, ever be better than, or outperform, class skills.

With this in mind allow me to introduce skills that have been phased out by "pull" sets: DK Standard, DK Chains, Warden Portal. The offensive viability of Warden Portal in PvP is highly arguable. Regardless, these skills are no longer an option for PvP builds.

This set has become the new Dark Convergence, but worse. Why is it worse? It's worse because it doesn't have a telecast effect on the ground that allows players to react. It's worse because it doesn't apply Crowd Control immunity. It's worse because it can be chained. Rolling away from the first pull means nothing when you're going to get pulled right back by another Rush of Agony. Ball groups know this, hence why they have multiple users of the set. If this sets was meant to counter ball groups...let me tell you something.

The underlying problem here is not the set itself. The problem is that Pulls do not grant CC immunity. However, until that is fixed, this set will remain a problem. In the interim, it needs to be adjusted to allow for counterplay. At the moment, it has zero. Once again, like Caluurion's, this set can only be exploited by one class: Nightblade. No other class has the damage potential while using this set. I'm not calling for a NB nerf, I'm calling for an adjustment that prevents NBs from exploiting it while we wait for a true fix. Perhaps add a longer window between the gap-closer and the pull. Perhaps add a cap to the amount of people pulled. Perhaps reduce the range, or the damage. Add a red circle to the pull area. Prevent the user from using skills for one second after proc'ing. Do something. There are so many things that can be done to dwindle down the complete dominance of this set in PvP.

Just like Dark Convergence, it also has amazing defensive capabilities. Someone can proc it on people that are focusing an ally and prevent them from effectively bursting down the ally. Proc and Cloak. Proc and Cloak. Proc and Cloak. That's the name of the game. Wasn't the reason for the Arctic Blast nerf because the stun was instant and unpredictable? Doesn't this sound like Rush of Agony? Doesn't it deserve the same treatment? I think it does.

SkaraMinoc

It's an S-tier set for sure but I don't think it's getting nerfed. The set has been out for almost 2 years and survived the patch where Dark Convergence and Hrothgar's Chill got nerfed. They added Nibenay Bay Battlereeve which is a good sometimes a counter to Rush of Agony. So I think they're content with where things are at.

CameraBeardThePirate

There's no reason for this set to break one of the golden rules of this game.

Not applying CC immunity is asinine. No, Nibenay is not a "counter" to the set when well-exectuted bombs will deal more than enough damage to kill you even through the shield.

SkaraMinoc

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Not applying CC immunity is asinine. No, Nibenay is not a "counter" to the set when well-exectuted bombs will deal more than enough damage to kill you even through the shield.

It can stop the chain reaction of Vicious Death and Plaguebreak, especially on smaller pulls.

If Rush of Agony applied Crowd Control Immunity then players would just run out of it. This already happens when Fear/Streak doesn't work and players avoid all the damage. The set would need a built-in stun or something.

If ZOS wants less bombers then adding CC Immunity to Rush of Agony would be one way of doing it. But it doesn't seem like ZOS wants that. They want bombing to be accessible and while they haven't communicated it, you could make the assumption that they want large groups of players to die for performance reasons.

CameraBeardThePirate

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Not applying CC immunity is asinine. No, Nibenay is not a "counter" to the set when well-exectuted bombs will deal more than enough damage to kill you even through the shield.

If Rush of Agony applied Crowd Control Immunity then players would just run out of it. This already happens when Fear/Streak doesn't work and players avoid all the damage. The set would need a built-in stun or something

Cool, then add a stun. There simply shouldn't be a set that breaks a rule as big as CC immunity.

Also, Nibenay's cooldown is almost twice as long as RoA's. See that a target is getting shielded by Nibenay? Neat, I'll just pull em again on my next cooldown.

SkaraMinoc

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Not applying CC immunity is asinine. No, Nibenay is not a "counter" to the set when well-exectuted bombs will deal more than enough damage to kill you even through the shield.

If Rush of Agony applied Crowd Control Immunity then players would just run out of it. This already happens when Fear/Streak doesn't work and players avoid all the damage. The set would need a built-in stun or something

Also, Nibenay's cooldown is almost twice as long as RoA's. See that a target is getting shielded by Nibenay? Neat, I'll just pull em again on my next cooldown.

Yeah that's true. I updated the wording in my comment up above from "a good counter" to "sometimes a counter"

React

They absolutely should make it stun. It's a cool set for small scale/outnumbered for sure, and I use it personally pretty much any time I group up on my NB. That said, the fact that it breaks the core rules of combat by pulling without a stun is absurd. The proc itself hits insanely hard and I've seen 10k+ hits on some players, it doesn't need the added functionality of allowing you to double CC with it.

RetPing

RoA is a beloved crutch of many ball groups and since ESO combat team showed many time they love that kind of gameplay they will never change this totally broken set.

A set that does't follow estabilished game mechanics should have never seen the light.
When you see that the combat team introdsuce sets like this you know, in my opinion, that they are totally out of touch with their game.
As I said this is my opinion, it's not in any form bashing.

Turtle_Bot

If they don't want to give it the same cooldown/immunity as stuns, at the bare minimum give it a cooldown on targets of its pull.

By adding "enemies can only be pulled by Rush of Agony once every X seconds" (similar cooldown to what they added to plague, SitS and other sets), you can at least prevent the entire ping pong effect multiple instances of this set is producing (the same ping pong effect that all the outrage over dark convergence was originally about).

Freilauftomate

Playing in a big group should make new players feel safer and stronger while there is a big war going on around them. Groups and guilds should be able to show and teach them what's happening. But with the constant downsizing of everything related to Cyrodiil, we already have a situation where new players do not feel welcome in groups anymore. Because they always get blamed for blowing up everyone else around them when they die.

Sets like vicious death, plaguebreak, dark convergence, rush of agony etc. combined with cp like occult overload and skills that get stronger the more players they hit used to be tools in extremely outnumbered fights. They made sense. But we don't have those big fights anymore.

Now you could either change the whole game, to make it better suited for smaller numbers, or you could fix performance and bring back the numbers this game was designed for.

I prefer the 2nd option. And i hate thinking about the first one.

Freilauftomate

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Perhaps add a cap to the amount of people pulled.

I thought it only pulls 6 players?

Theignson

The whole "Pull-stun/fear-bomb" meta is so old.

You have packs of 12 , all they do is run around until they have ulti, then bomb. Boring, boring, boring

In heavy combat you can be pulled from way outside the apparent circle, so you have no warning and little recourse.

Due to no cc Immunity, they can pull you, you block/walk out, you get double pulled.

At the least they should make the ground effect show (like it does for dark convergence).

OnGodiDoDis

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Not applying CC immunity is asinine. No, Nibenay is not a "counter" to the set when well-exectuted bombs will deal more than enough damage to kill you even through the shield.

It can stop the chain reaction of Vicious Death and Plaguebreak, especially on smaller pulls.

If Rush of Agony applied Crowd Control Immunity then players would just run out of it. This already happens when Fear/Streak doesn't work and players avoid all the damage. The set would need a built-in stun or something.

If ZOS wants less bombers then adding CC Immunity to Rush of Agony would be one way of doing it. But it doesn't seem like ZOS wants that. They want bombing to be accessible and while they haven't communicated it, you could make the assumption that they want large groups of players to die for performance reasons.

Yes, that last part is true. We've known that for a long time. It became apparent with the patch that introduced PB and DC and even the op Occult Overload passive. However, giving a set that much power is unhealthy for the game. It is possible to have bomb groups without such sets if ZoS just made better bombing skills. There are ultimates and skills with the potential to thrive in that area but they don't get the attention they deserve. The goal here is to have skills be the main character and have the sets be auxiliary options, not requirements.

Bushido2513

Theignson wrote: »

The whole "Pull-stun/fear-bomb" meta is so old.

You have packs of 12 , all they do is run around until they have ulti, then bomb. Boring, boring, boring

In heavy combat you can be pulled from way outside the apparent circle, so you have no warning and little recourse.

Due to no cc Immunity, they can pull you, you block/walk out, you get double pulled.

At the least they should make the ground effect show (like it does for dark convergence).

Happened to me just recently. I was what seemed to be far outside any pull radius then in comes a gap closer on someone that I didn't even see and it was downhill after the double pull.

So currently you can't really stand a safe distance because it can be cut at any time by a gap closer

OnGodiDoDis

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

The whole "Pull-stun/fear-bomb" meta is so old.

You have packs of 12 , all they do is run around until they have ulti, then bomb. Boring, boring, boring

In heavy combat you can be pulled from way outside the apparent circle, so you have no warning and little recourse.

Due to no cc Immunity, they can pull you, you block/walk out, you get double pulled.

At the least they should make the ground effect show (like it does for dark convergence).

Happened to me just recently. I was what seemed to be far outside any pull radius then in comes a gap closer on someone that I didn't even see and it was downhill after the double pull.

So currently you can't really stand a safe distance because it can be cut at any time by a gap closer

It's also a guaranteed hit if you get pulled, and you WILL get pulled. The damage is no joke either, I've seen procs hit harder than ultimates on just myself since the damage doesn't depend on the number of people hit. It's like Caluurion's all over again, but worse. It's always either the necro or the NB that cause problems. If they made classes less reliable on sets we wouldn't have these problems.

CameraBeardThePirate

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

The whole "Pull-stun/fear-bomb" meta is so old.

You have packs of 12 , all they do is run around until they have ulti, then bomb. Boring, boring, boring

In heavy combat you can be pulled from way outside the apparent circle, so you have no warning and little recourse.

Due to no cc Immunity, they can pull you, you block/walk out, you get double pulled.

At the least they should make the ground effect show (like it does for dark convergence).

Happened to me just recently. I was what seemed to be far outside any pull radius then in comes a gap closer on someone that I didn't even see and it was downhill after the double pull.

So currently you can't really stand a safe distance because it can be cut at any time by a gap closer

It's also a guaranteed hit if you get pulled, and you WILL get pulled. The damage is no joke either, I've seen procs hit harder than ultimates on just myself since the damage doesn't depend on the number of people hit. It's like Caluurion's all over again, but worse. It's always either the necro or the NB that cause problems. If they made classes less reliable on sets we wouldn't have these problems.

Necro? Lol dude ain't no one running necro in PvP these days.

OnGodiDoDis

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

The whole "Pull-stun/fear-bomb" meta is so old.

You have packs of 12 , all they do is run around until they have ulti, then bomb. Boring, boring, boring

In heavy combat you can be pulled from way outside the apparent circle, so you have no warning and little recourse.

Due to no cc Immunity, they can pull you, you block/walk out, you get double pulled.

At the least they should make the ground effect show (like it does for dark convergence).

Happened to me just recently. I was what seemed to be far outside any pull radius then in comes a gap closer on someone that I didn't even see and it was downhill after the double pull.

So currently you can't really stand a safe distance because it can be cut at any time by a gap closer

It's also a guaranteed hit if you get pulled, and you WILL get pulled. The damage is no joke either, I've seen procs hit harder than ultimates on just myself since the damage doesn't depend on the number of people hit. It's like Caluurion's all over again, but worse. It's always either the necro or the NB that cause problems. If they made classes less reliable on sets we wouldn't have these problems.

Necro? Lol dude ain't no one running necro in PvP these days.

I didn't say anyone was. I said that necro and nbs have always been the center of all the problems. This is due to their AoE potential (pre harmony nerf for necro), but this is irrelevant.

OnGodiDoDis

Freilauftomate wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Perhaps add a cap to the amount of people pulled.

I thought it only pulls 6 players?

It doesn't have a cap

OnGodiDoDis

I would like to mention that the introduction of such sets need to be met with more resistance from the PvP community for our own sake. The devs are getting too comfortable making these ridiculous sets with rule-defying mechanics such as not applying CC immunity. Next, we got a set that ignores Battle Spirit (Nibenay). What rule is the next set going to ignore?

DrNukenstein

I consider the CC immunity rule to be a golden rule. What is a golden rule? Well according to the Oxford dictionary it means this:

gold·en rule
/ˌɡōld(ə)n ˈro͞ol/
noun
a basic principle that should always be followed to ensure success in general or in a particular activity.

This definition can be interpreted as meaning "a rule that has no exceptions". Even skillful interrupts are subject to this golden rule of CC immunity. No way should a proc be the exception. It's AOE damage tool tip is high enough to carry the value of the proc without breaking the CC rule.

OnGodiDoDis

Bomb groups can still be viable (in the correct way) if phased-out skills got the attention they need. DK Standard was a trademark ultimate in the olden days with its AoE pull ability. It was powerful. It was necessary. It was just awesome to witness. The necro armor pull has so much potential as well, so does the warden portal (with a little tweaking). Pulling enemies is a powerful ability that needs to be reserved for powerful skills such as ultimates (which take time to obtain). There is zero reason for a set to offer ultimate-like abilities every few seconds, yet alone to allow any class to have such an ability. Pulls were something unique to the DK. Imagine if every class was allowed to cloak on command like a NB because of a set, and now imagine it was more powerful than cloak. Say the cloak didn't break when the user took damage. Nonsense, isn’t it? Why equip cloak in the first place when a set does a better job? This is exactly the state of the game right now and it has turned the game dull. ESO is not supposed to be a game where sets do all the work.

ItsNotLiving

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

It's an S-tier set for sure but I don't think it's getting nerfed. The set has been out for almost 2 years and survived the patch where Dark Convergence and Hrothgar's Chill got nerfed. They added Nibenay Bay Battlereeve which is a good sometimes a counter to Rush of Agony. So I think they're content with where things are at.

Personally, Rush of Agony feels fun and I'd be unhappy if they nerfed it.

A moment of silence for our fallen brother Hrothgar’s Chill. Rest in Peace.

OnGodiDoDis

DrNukenstein wrote: »

I consider the CC immunity rule to be a golden rule. What is a golden rule? Well according to the Oxford dictionary it means this:

gold·en rule
/ˌɡōld(ə)n ˈro͞ol/
noun
a basic principle that should always be followed to ensure success in general or in a particular activity.

This definition can be interpreted as meaning "a rule that has no exceptions". Even skillful interrupts are subject to this golden rule of CC immunity. No way should a proc be the exception. It's AOE damage tool tip is high enough to carry the value of the proc without breaking the CC rule.

Yes, the RoA tooltip needs to have a scaling modifier. It's no different than Caluurion's without it (close to imposible to avoid). Except it's worse because it does AoE damage.

OnGodiDoDis

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

It's an S-tier set for sure but I don't think it's getting nerfed. The set has been out for almost 2 years and survived the patch where Dark Convergence and Hrothgar's Chill got nerfed. They added Nibenay Bay Battlereeve which is a good sometimes a counter to Rush of Agony. So I think they're content with where things are at.

A set should not be the answer to a broken set. It creates unnecessary loops (using a set to protect yourself from another set) and forces everyone to use those sets, which is against the original vision of the game. I say "original" because it's clear the current vision is for everyone to use the same sets or die. Sets should compliment and extend the effectiveness of our builds, not dictate how we play. There's no better option than RoA right now. It's so good that even non NBs are using it, though not as effectively. All they need is the pull even if they can't capitalize off the pull themselves.