Need AI to moderate the forum

Elowen_Starveil

Vulkunne wrote: »

Right so you as a developer are part of the cycle however a developer role is perhaps not best suited to collect information straight from the customer. Obviously, developers cannot suit everyone, not at all. However, there's a difference between that fact and between obstructing the customer from sharing their input as their role requires. The developer cannot accommodate every feature, the customer can share their opinion with this understanding.

I have a degree in engineering, but my whole career has revolved around building software for the engineers I work with, to help them do their jobs. I am intimately familiar with what the software needs to do, and how it can be written to assist, and not get in the way, because I AM a customer. Similarly, I have a very hard time believing that the devs on ANY game do not also PLAY it, and know -- first-hand -- all the frustrations that everyone has.

Elowen_Starveil

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

1. AI implementation would require either Vanilla to build in functionality or another software that works with Vanilla to build in the webhooks.

I might have been cheeky in suggesting it actually be AI, and automatic. ;-)

Ragnarok0130

JanTanhide wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

I wish ZOS would implement AI on the forum to do just one thing: prevent people from posting comments to the effect of "the developers do not care" or "they don't understand." Just grey out the submit button when that sentiment is expressed. Maybe relabel it with "start over!" As a full-time, full-stack developer in web applications and Windows applications for 30 years, this comment makes me recoil every time I see it. Trust me, there is no one who is more aware of whatever it is you are complaining about than the developers, and to suggest otherwise is denigrating. Comments here get actioned for the slightest of slights, and yet people are allowed to bash on the developers of the game they love enough to come here and argue about it. I just don't get it. The devs have an internal backlog of stuff to get through, including new expansions, new features, bug fixes, balance patches, and infrastructure upgrades and reorganizations. You can complain about your particular pet issue not getting enough attention, but there's only so much they can do at one time, and there's a whole bunch of stuff going on that you either can't see or will never notice. It's just unfair to make it personal the way a lot of people seem to do.

There is already massive censorship. What's next, getting approval before posting a comment by a "Moderator"?

Maybe this suggestion is the OP's attempt to try to make the short list to become a forum moderator. I've seen all sorts of these types of attempts over the years in other game forums and they tend to follow a pattern. Either way I find the OP's suggestion to be way out of line, unneeded, and it would kill the ESO forums.

Elowen_Starveil

A whooole bunch of people here have conflated me asking, "Please don't try to tell me that the devs 'do not care' or 'do not understand,' when it's obvious that they must," with the notion that I think it's inappropriate to complain about anything. I'm not clear why anyone would get that from what I wrote. I thought I was being pretty clear. By all means, go ham with the criticism. But to lay your criticisms at the feet of the developers as though they just want to make a buck and go home, and don't care about the player experience, or that they're ignorant of whatever it is you're all complaining about, just seems ridiculous to me. If I was the target of such comments, it would make me mad, because I try very hard to make my software a pleasure to use. Honestly, what part of my initial post led people to think I want to "censor all criticism?" I'm lost.

Elsonso

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Right so you as a developer are part of the cycle however a developer role is perhaps not best suited to collect information straight from the customer. Obviously, developers cannot suit everyone, not at all. However, there's a difference between that fact and between obstructing the customer from sharing their input as their role requires. The developer cannot accommodate every feature, the customer can share their opinion with this understanding.

I have a degree in engineering, but my whole career has revolved around building software for the engineers I work with, to help them do their jobs. I am intimately familiar with what the software needs to do, and how it can be written to assist, and not get in the way, because I AM a customer. Similarly, I have a very hard time believing that the devs on ANY game do not also PLAY it, and know -- first-hand -- all the frustrations that everyone has.

ZOS devs do play the game.

Elowen_Starveil

Amottica wrote: »

I do not think Zenimax takes issue with threads or comments saying Zenimax does not care or does not understand as long as it does not include bashing. If the thread provides feedback that is constructive vs just a rant it is much more likely to get noticed.

I guess that's my problem, right there. I consider "the devs don't care/understand" to be bashing. And most comments which resort to this sort of rhetoric aren't being very constructive.

Syldras

I can agree that the tone could be friendlier sometimes. Saying "We don't have the impression our criticism is taken seriously enough" or "It's frustrating that a bigger bug that has been reported regularly hasn't been fixed after several months" (like the one with Azandar and Ayleid wells that blocks the achievement that grants his special perk...) sounds different than something along the lines of "They don't listen to us anyway!"

A word filter is no solution, though. It doesn't change the sentiment of the users. If they're frustrated, they remain frustrated. Of course they could reword their message to sound friendlier, but changing the forum software for that?!

Also, ZOS made clear that this type of criticism is no problem for them. If it were, they would already delete these kinds of forum posts. They don't. I don't understand why someone else would tell them to do that. It's their decision what they allow in the forums, no one else's.

CrazyKitty

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

I wish ZOS would implement AI on the forum to do just one thing: prevent people from posting comments to the effect of "the developers do not care" or "they don't understand." Just grey out the submit button when that sentiment is expressed. Maybe relabel it with "start over!" As a full-time, full-stack developer in web applications and Windows applications for 30 years, this comment makes me recoil every time I see it. Trust me, there is no one who is more aware of whatever it is you are complaining about than the developers, and to suggest otherwise is denigrating. Comments here get actioned for the slightest of slights, and yet people are allowed to bash on the developers of the game they love enough to come here and argue about it. I just don't get it. The devs have an internal backlog of stuff to get through, including new expansions, new features, bug fixes, balance patches, and infrastructure upgrades and reorganizations. You can complain about your particular pet issue not getting enough attention, but there's only so much they can do at one time, and there's a whole bunch of stuff going on that you either can't see or will never notice. It's just unfair to make it personal the way a lot of people seem to do.

Why on earth would anyone want AI to be their censor? Good grief.

NeuroticPixels

TaSheen wrote: »

NeuroticPixels wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

[snip]
Edit for context: the above snipped content was a cheeky response to the insinuation that there is an overabundance of censorship.

Wait… did the moderator add that “edit for context”? Because if so, that’s amazing. Seriously. I want more of this. Short lil tidbits somewhat explaining why things got snipped/edited/removed. ❤️

The only edit tag is from Panderbander. I don't think it was a mod.

☹️

Amottica

Panderbander wrote: »

Trier_Sero wrote: »

There is already overabundance of censorship on this forum, don't need anymore.

Plus, negative feedback, if constructive, is always a good thing.
Devs aren't some kind of superior beings that know better than everybody else.

[snip]
Edit for context: the above snipped content was a cheeky response to the insinuation that there is an overabundance of censorship.

For real though, echo chambers where everyone just pats each other on the back don't help anyone involved. If someone is upset at a game there's usually a reason for it.

[edited for trolling]

This forum is far from an echo chamber. The posts that bash, bait, troll, etc, are what gets removed. There is a big difference between providing well-thought-out constructive critic or feedback vs just going off on the devs and such.

Freelancer_ESO

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Right so you as a developer are part of the cycle however a developer role is perhaps not best suited to collect information straight from the customer. Obviously, developers cannot suit everyone, not at all. However, there's a difference between that fact and between obstructing the customer from sharing their input as their role requires. The developer cannot accommodate every feature, the customer can share their opinion with this understanding.

I have a degree in engineering, but my whole career has revolved around building software for the engineers I work with, to help them do their jobs. I am intimately familiar with what the software needs to do, and how it can be written to assist, and not get in the way, because I AM a customer. Similarly, I have a very hard time believing that the devs on ANY game do not also PLAY it, and know -- first-hand -- all the frustrations that everyone has.

Different users have different resources and different backgrounds that will impact how they experience software even if they are doing the same thing which leads to people experiencing different frustrations.

TaSheen

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

I have a degree in engineering, but my whole career has revolved around building software for the engineers I work with, to help them do their jobs. I am intimately familiar with what the software needs to do, and how it can be written to assist, and not get in the way, because I AM a customer. Similarly, I have a very hard time believing that the devs on ANY game do not also PLAY it, and know -- first-hand -- all the frustrations that everyone has.

Eh, so.... is your engineering degree in any way at all congruent with game design and implementation?

No?

Well.... hmmm. I know engineers who have ZERO to do with game design and implementation. In fact.... they really have no use for "silly games". I think they do what they believe is something of value - and for them, games are not even on the radar....

Elowen_Starveil

TaSheen wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

I have a degree in engineering, but my whole career has revolved around building software for the engineers I work with, to help them do their jobs. I am intimately familiar with what the software needs to do, and how it can be written to assist, and not get in the way, because I AM a customer. Similarly, I have a very hard time believing that the devs on ANY game do not also PLAY it, and know -- first-hand -- all the frustrations that everyone has.

Eh, so.... is your engineering degree in any way at all congruent with game design and implementation?

No?

Well.... hmmm. I know engineers who have ZERO to do with game design and implementation. In fact.... they really have no use for "silly games". I think they do what they believe is something of value - and for them, games are not even on the radar....

I know engineers who don't game too, but you can't convince me that people working in gaming think its silly. There's too much grind in this industry for someone who disdains gaming to stick around for very long. They will find employment in other industries. I'm convinced that people who work on video games -- especially a long-running MMO -- engineers, designers, or otherwise -- are very much into them and, therefore, I think they'd be offended at the notion that they "don't care," or "don't understand."

ClowdyAllDay

my suspicion is AI was employed to moderate the forums and took them down for half a day but this is entirely conjecture on my part.

Four_Fingers

I don't think people get upset at the technical types, the disdain is more reserved for the suits and bean counters that bottleneck the creative and tech types.

Syldras

ClowdyAllDay wrote: »

my suspicion is AI was employed to moderate the forums and took them down for half a day but this is entirely conjecture on my part.

So you think because someone mentions AI phrase filters in this thread the people at Vanilla Forums, who haven't even read this, have suddenly implemented it?

Elowen_Starveil

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Right so you as a developer are part of the cycle however a developer role is perhaps not best suited to collect information straight from the customer. Obviously, developers cannot suit everyone, not at all. However, there's a difference between that fact and between obstructing the customer from sharing their input as their role requires. The developer cannot accommodate every feature, the customer can share their opinion with this understanding.

I have a degree in engineering, but my whole career has revolved around building software for the engineers I work with, to help them do their jobs. I am intimately familiar with what the software needs to do, and how it can be written to assist, and not get in the way, because I AM a customer. Similarly, I have a very hard time believing that the devs on ANY game do not also PLAY it, and know -- first-hand -- all the frustrations that everyone has.

Different users have different resources and different backgrounds that will impact how they experience software even if they are doing the same thing which leads to people experiencing different frustrations.

That doesn't invalidate my point. As a developer, if a user tells me that something isn't working like they want it to, I can 1) tell them that they need to change how they're trying to use my software, or 2) change my software to work the way they want it to, or 3) plan a modification that gets put on backlog, where it will probably atrophy from neglect. Outcome 3 is by far the most likely scenario. All of software engineering is like this. But the fact that the request is never gotten to, because of superseding pressures and demands, does NOT mean that I "don't care" or that I "don't understand" what the user wants, and I would take offense if someone had requested something, and was going around telling people either of those things about me. I care and understand very much. I believe anyone working on this game is in the same boat.

SilverBride

I agree with the OP. I don't know about using an AI to do the job, but posts that bash ZoS and the developers should not be allowed.

Accusing them of not caring, and being incompetent, and only caring about getting money from the players happen way too frequently and in my opinion should not just be overlooked. Besides being insulting to the people that put a lot of work into developing this game for us to enjoy, they are not the least bit constructive.

There are better ways to express discontent than resorting to insults. That doesn't accomplish anything.

Vulkunne

SilverBride wrote: »

I agree with the OP. I don't know about using an AI to do the job, but posts that bash ZoS and the developers should not be allowed.

Accusing them of not caring, and being incompetent, and only caring about getting money from the players happen way too frequently and in my opinion should not just be overlooked. Besides being insulting to the people that put a lot of work into developing this game for us to enjoy, they are not the least bit constructive.

There are better ways to express discontent than resorting to insults. That doesn't accomplish anything.

@SilverBride

“To know who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize” - Voltaire (maybe)

Syldras

I'm wondering why some people want to tell ZOS what they are supposed to censor/remove in their forums (especially as they've made their point clear - one mod even gave a statement in this very thread). Do you also go to other people's house parties and tell them what things they should allow to discuss in their own home and what not?

ClowdyAllDay

Syldras wrote: »

ClowdyAllDay wrote: »

my suspicion is AI was employed to moderate the forums and took them down for half a day but this is entirely conjecture on my part.

So you think because someone mentions AI phrase filters in this thread the people at Vanilla Forums, who haven't even read this, have suddenly implemented it?

sigh

SilverBride

Syldras wrote: »

I'm wondering why some people want to tell ZOS what they are supposed to censor/remove in their forums (especially as they've made their point clear - one mod even gave a statement in this very thread). Do you also go to other people's house parties and tell them what things they should allow to discuss in their own home and what not?

Bashing is already a violation of the forum guidelines.

What if someone went to a party and overheard all the guests bashing the host and saying they don't care about their guests because they didn't serve the right food or play the right music etc.. Would that be acceptable?

[Edited to clarify]

Freelancer_ESO

Vulkunne wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I agree with the OP. I don't know about using an AI to do the job, but posts that bash ZoS and the developers should not be allowed.

Accusing them of not caring, and being incompetent, and only caring about getting money from the players happen way too frequently and in my opinion should not just be overlooked. Besides being insulting to the people that put a lot of work into developing this game for us to enjoy, they are not the least bit constructive.

There are better ways to express discontent than resorting to insults. That doesn't accomplish anything.

@SilverBride

“To know who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize” - Voltaire (maybe)

I'm pretty sure that the quote is not Voltaire

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL1N2UE2LM/

Syldras

SilverBride wrote: »

Besides bashing being a violation of the forum guidelines,

...whose interpretation is up to ZOS.

SilverBride wrote: »

it is completely non-constructive.

I agree with that. It's still up to ZOS though, what they allow in their forums.

SilverBride wrote: »

What if someone went to a party and overheard all the guests bashing the host and saying they don't care about their guests because they didn't serve the right food or play the right music etc.. Would that be acceptable?

If the host says they are okay with that and don't want to change anything, you continue to tell them they should put a stop to it?

SilverBride

Syldras wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

What if someone went to a party and overheard all the guests bashing the host and saying they don't care about their guests because they didn't serve the right food or play the right music etc.. Would that be acceptable?

If the host says they are okay with that and don't want to change anything, you continue to tell them they should put a stop to it?

If I was that unhappy with the food and music at a party I would just excuse myself and not accept any more invitations to their future parties. I would not keep going back and insulting them.

Also, the forum guidelines already consider bashing a violation, so it's expected that this would not be allowed.

ClowdyAllDay

SilverBride wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

What if someone went to a party and overheard all the guests bashing the host and saying they don't care about their guests because they didn't serve the right food or play the right music etc.. Would that be acceptable?

If the host says they are okay with that and don't want to change anything, you continue to tell them they should put a stop to it?

If I was that unhappy with the food and music at a party I would just excuse myself and not accept any more invitations to their future parties. I would not keep going back and insulting them.

Also, the forum guidelines already consider bashing a violation, so it's expected that this would not be allowed.

ok but that's you. we should not all be required to behave according to your value system esp when and if even zos says we dont have to?

SilverBride

ClowdyAllDay wrote: »

...we should not all be required to behave according to your value system esp when and if even zos says we dont have to?

It's not my value system. It's in the form guidelines.

Syldras

SilverBride wrote: »

If I was that unhappy with the food and music at a party I would just excuse myself and not accept any more invitations to their future parties. I would not keep going back and insulting them.

I wouldn't either, and I also wouldn't be that tolerant with guests insulting me - I'd show them the door. But that doesn't change anything about the fact that this forum is ZOS' property, they make the rules, they have the last word. We are guests here, we should respect how ZOS handles these accusations. Community manager Kevin wrote that ZOS will do nothing against these kind of posts, so I accept that. It doesn't matter if I'd do it differently or if I cannot understand why they make this decision, it's just none of my business.

SilverBride

Syldras wrote: »

Community manager Kevin wrote that ZOS will do nothing against these kind of posts, so I accept that.

That is not what I understood from his post. I read that they welcome feedback as long as it's constructive. Nowhere does it say that bashing will not be moderated.

@ZOS_Kevin Will you please clarify?

Amottica

SilverBride wrote: »

ClowdyAllDay wrote: »

...we should not all be required to behave according to your value system esp when and if even zos says we dont have to?

It's not my value system. It's in the form guidelines.

True. Bashing and Baiting are both violations according to the forum rules Zenimax has posted. Being this is a private forum Zenimax can both determine what the rules are and define their meaning.