Is there really any benefit to playing stamina over magicka?

SmellyUnlimited · January 11

I’ve gone through the classes, and looked at other write ups folks on the boards have done. It seems like there’s really no benefit to running a stamina class in PvE over their magicka counterpart. Take the Nightblade. Magicka version has far more survivability with shields/lifesteal, and more utility with their in-class AoE applying minor maim, major expedition, and group heals through Siphon Soul and sap. Stamblade on the other hand has low if any survivability by comparison, has to fight up close and personal, and the damage is arguably the same or even less than a Magblade. Even if their damage was slightly more, it’s still so many detriments comparatively.

How can Stamina classes make up these differences? Can they? Or are you, by picking the stam version, just accepting that you’ll likely not survive fights as much and not provide as much utility?

Uvi_AUT · January 11

Running, Blocking, Sneaking and Dodging uses Stamina. You simply dont run out of those as fast on a Stamchar.

SaffronCitrusflower · January 11

It's all hybrid now. Resource management means that any strong build will do both stam and mag skills, although mostly magic skills are overall stronger I think.

WrathOfInnos · January 11

There are a couple of builds that encourage stamina. Arcanist is the top example, as Cephaliarc’s Flail is the best class spammable and always costs stamina. Stam Arcanist also has the advantage of Fulminating Rune costing Magicka, while Mag Arcanist’s rune costs stamina and leads to unmanageable stamina drain (along with flail, barbed trap, cloak, etc.).

Sorcerer is another build that hits higher peaks on Stamina builds. This is primarily due to the skill “Bound Armaments” which increases the stamina pool by 8%, and therefore increases all skill damage for stam builds without helping mag builds. Stam Sorc also synergizes well with stamina skills like Rapid Strikes, especially when using the Maelstrom Greatsword on the back bar. Magicka sorcerer lacks a good spammable, and most just hard cast Crystal Fragments (which works ok on a dummy, but not so good in difficult content that requires blocking/dodging).

El_Borracho · January 11

I'll second what @WrathOfInnos said about Arcanist and Stam Sorc. I would add Stam Necro to the mix, but the gap between the magicka version is not big and I prefer stamina over magicka for Necro. I don't know why you would play Arcanist as magicka. I end up slotting and using skills like Reconstructive Domain or Cruxweaver Armor on my back bar because those cost magicka so they don't take away from my stamina damage resource. At the same time I run daggers on the front bar and the VMA Inferno on the back because I've found that maximizes damage output and resources.

The builds I've gone magicka over stamina on are Magplar, Magblade, and Mag DK, but even the Mag DK is a hybrid. As for Magplar and Magblade, they also run daggers on the front bar, but several of their class skills with magicka are superior to their stamina counterpart. For instance, Merciless Resolve gives more damage than Relentless Focus, Puncturing Sweeps heal while Jabs do not, and of course Radiant Oppression versus nothing from the stamina side. Some would counter that Jabs give Major Brutality/Major Sorcery but you can make up for that with Degeneration instead of Harness Magicka.

SmellyUnlimited · January 11

It just seems strange that certain magicka classes significantly outperform their stamina counterpart, and vice-versa. I’m also approaching this from a solo vs. group dynamic, where magicka vastly outperforms stamina in solo content from my experience.

Hybridization has changed certain skill use, but in PvE there still is very much a “stamina or magicka” identity. At some point, you have to pick the larger resource pool, so you’ll end up with one or the other realistically. I’ve tried slotting concealed weapon over surprise attack on a stamblade, and I just don’t have the resource sustain to keep it up. I just wish there was equal parts survivability and utility to both stamina and magicka variations, but except for a few stamina outliers, it seems magicka still reigns supreme.

MudcrabAttack · January 11

I remember my first time swapping from stamblade to magblade years ago, trying out annulment, sap essence, swallow soul, and immediately ripping through VMA no death with hardly any effort, like it was suddenly easy mode. It felt like I was playing the game all wrong until then, but the DPS felt noticeably lower when I got back into groups.

I’m back to playing stamblade though, sometimes an archer, sometimes melee. When reaving blows was added to the game it seemed to offer just enough extra self healing, and maybe being more familiar with all the dungeons and trial mechanics I haven’t really had much to complain about lately

Necrotech_Master · January 11

i feel like stam characters are easier to play and deal more dmg

that being said i have some mag characters too, but they usually either feel more complex to play or less effective than my stam characters

most characters can be designed as a focus on either setup, but as noted sustain is a big thing

if you are running medium armor, your going to have significantly better stam sustain than mag sustain

OtarTheMad · January 12

Pretty much what everyone said here but I’ll add this:

If a classes offensive abilities are sub-par or just flat out suck, stamina can replace those better than magicka can.

I’m weird, I prefer magicka over stamina but I am not an endgamer. If I was I would probably go stamina.

fred4 · January 12

@SmellyUnlimited, you seem to be a solo PvE nightblade. Sure. I'd be a magblade. The thing is, when people talk about stamina being better, they usually talk about the trial meta, whether they are conscious of it, or not. There's a simple reason for that. Veteran trials are the most competitive form of PvE with the most player coordination required. This stuff actually matters, there. The trial meta is the best known and documented form of PvE. Solo play, on the other hand, completely flies under the radar. People often, falsely IMO, use trial builds for solo play or, at least, they IMO lean too far in that direction. And by "people" I mean new players or those that are not deeply versed in buildcrafting. I think many such players are overwhelmed and look for the single armor set / class / race combination that will do them for a while, or they are simply not interested in buildcrafting at all. The content that's most fully explored, for which people make spreadsheets, for which you can clearly say X is better than Y in some cases, is trials. Since new players look for these clear judgements, they end up with trial or close to trial builds when, IMO, they shouldn't. This is exacerbated by the fact that experienced players, Alcast and the like, may very well steamroll all content, or certainly the solo arenas, with such builds. However that doesn't mean those builds are good for you, or that they are the best for soloing all soloable content.

Sure, content creators may also provide solo builds, but there's more scope for individuality here, because the content, including vMA and vVateshran, is simply not as hard as a hardmode trial, nor does it require you to fit in with what your tanks, healers and the other DDs are doing. As a consequence I find that the things that truly work well in solo play, the kind of solo play that pushes beyond the solo arenas, is relatively underexplored.

You're right about magicka builds typically having better self-healing. Nightblade and templar are both prime examples of that, since they heal from their spammables, although I find nightblade the squishier of the two with directly equivalent builds. On the other hand, the stamina equivalent of a magplar is arguably a Master's 2H Brawler build, specifically a sorc, and that beats the crap out of both magplar and magblade in terms of survivability, albeit at the expense of single target damage. When it come to stamina, you have to know your weapon skills and their corresponding arena weapons. They play a greater role with stamina than with magicka builds. Brawler gives you massive shielding. A lot of dual-wield skills heal you from damage. The latter just aren't as good as the class skills that magicka builds have, but they're there.

When it comes to trials, things are different. Magicka classes typically wear light armor for the sustain. This gives you crit % (good) and penetration (questionable). On it's own, in solo play, or in PvP, the penetration is actually very good. In trial groups, however, tanks typically provide as much as 14K all the way up to 18.2K, e.g. full penetration, on an hypothetical Arcanist tank. This mainly has to do with the availability of Crimson Oath Rive, a meta tanking set for the main tank. Magicka builds, other than heavy attack builds, are typically stuck with light armor, which they need for the sustain. However, in a modern trial group, the penetration bonus provided by that armor can partially or fully go to waste. The weapon / spell damage from medium armor, on the other hand, does not. There is no cap on it.

Then there's Arcanist. That class can switch the resource for the same morph of some skills, based on the largest resource pool. However, in keeping with the theory that you need stamina for core combat, e.g. for blocking, dodging, sprinting, and so on, stamina morphs are generally some 20%, or so, cheaper than magicka morphs. Aside from Flail being the preferred spammable between Fatecarvers, the preceding fact also makes stamina Arcanists inherently cheaper to run than magicka in a trial context. You simply use less core combat resources, there, than in other content, especially in those boss fights that are little more than trial dummy parses. Cheaper skills mean you can invest more into damage elsewhere in the build. This is one of the reasons that makes stamina Arcanist the preferred flavor of that class.

kojou · January 12

One uses a resource that has a green bar, and the other uses a resource that has a blue bar. Damage-wise, its pretty much the same, and I find that it is best to use a mix of both so you don't put too much pressure on your blue bar or your green bar.

Zodiarkslayer · January 13

For pure Solo PvE, there is arguably only a small difference between Mag and Stam. And it derives from your armor weight choice.

Hello! Hybridization, anyone?

The question is always: How do you want to play it?

The question about Nightblade is ridiculous, because you would use almost the same abilities for damage and survivability on both Stam and Mag Blade and use the almost identical mixture of Stam and Mag morphs.
MagBlade just has a damage advantage because of +8%MaxMagicka and Major Berserk. That is why most players stack into Magicka. Even if they at the same time stack into stamina regeneration to sustain their stamina consumption, because they use mostly stamina abilities.

It's basically the counterpart to what @WrathOfInnos says about the StamSorc. Some classes have a clear damage or survivability advantage on one side of the tracks, but not the other. That can be due to passives or overloaded abilities like Cephaliarchs Flail or Puncturing Sweeps.

On the other hand, I see no structual difference between Mag and Stam DK. StamDK has more Weapon Damage, but MagDK has more pen and crit. But is that really the case?
These are stats that differ mostly because of your set and armor weight choice and not because you have integrally different abilities. And both have the minor brutality buff, meaning both will have their abilities' damage scale off weapon damage stat. It will always be higher than spell damage.
The rotations are also pretty much identical.

Hybridization, yeah!

Mesite · January 13

I like to fight with a magical staff. It feels more like a traditional mage, but like Otar, I don't do endgame. At the moment I use the cephaliarc flail on my magicka arcanist and don't have sustain problems, but I'm not sure what effect it's having on my DPS compared to if I'd chosen the other morph.

Sakiri · January 16

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

There are a couple of builds that encourage stamina. Arcanist is the top example, as Cephaliarc’s Flail is the best class spammable and always costs stamina. Stam Arcanist also has the advantage of Fulminating Rune costing Magicka, while Mag Arcanist’s rune costs stamina and leads to unmanageable stamina drain (along with flail, barbed trap, cloak, etc.).

Sorcerer is another build that hits higher peaks on Stamina builds. This is primarily due to the skill “Bound Armaments” which increases the stamina pool by 8%, and therefore increases all skill damage for stam builds without helping mag builds. Stam Sorc also synergizes well with stamina skills like Rapid Strikes, especially when using the Maelstrom Greatsword on the back bar. Magicka sorcerer lacks a good spammable, and most just hard cast Crystal Fragments (which works ok on a dummy, but not so good in difficult content that requires blocking/dodging).

My sorc doesn't use frags. But I'm running an oakensoul ha build.

Nihilr · January 16

My husband does my character builds for me, but his recipe for characters is:

Magicka main? Have at least 1 major heal or buff ability from a Stamina morph.

Stamina main? Have at least 1 major heal or buff ability from a Magicka morph.

His logic; If you aren't using a resource pool, you aren't at your maximum capabilities for survival.

edit: He also only makes us play with Oakensoul builds too, because we hate weapon swapping. It's gimmicky and our controllers have to be replaced once a year already. We do bash-cancels for our animation cancelling. Wish we didn't have to either.

So far it's worked great for me too. We like to do content together without groups, so our survivability is pretty good, other than "1-hit kills" that ocassionally still get me on unexperienced dungeons or in PvP ganks. 😅

IZZEFlameLash · January 18

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i feel like stam characters are easier to play and deal more dmg

that being said i have some mag characters too, but they usually either feel more complex to play or less effective than my stam characters

most characters can be designed as a focus on either setup, but as noted sustain is a big thing

if you are running medium armor, your going to have significantly better stam sustain than mag sustain

Agreed. In general, stam specs almost always deal more damage.

yadibroz · January 18

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

There are a couple of builds that encourage stamina. Arcanist is the top example, as Cephaliarc’s Flail is the best class spammable and always costs stamina. Stam Arcanist also has the advantage of Fulminating Rune costing Magicka, while Mag Arcanist’s rune costs stamina and leads to unmanageable stamina drain (along with flail, barbed trap, cloak, etc.).

Sorcerer is another build that hits higher peaks on Stamina builds. This is primarily due to the skill “Bound Armaments” which increases the stamina pool by 8%, and therefore increases all skill damage for stam builds without helping mag builds. Stam Sorc also synergizes well with stamina skills like Rapid Strikes, especially when using the Maelstrom Greatsword on the back bar. Magicka sorcerer lacks a good spammable, and most just hard cast Crystal Fragments (which works ok on a dummy, but not so good in difficult content that requires blocking/dodging).

Is Bound Armaments good, never try it on stamina?

yadibroz · January 18

Sakiri wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

There are a couple of builds that encourage stamina. Arcanist is the top example, as Cephaliarc’s Flail is the best class spammable and always costs stamina. Stam Arcanist also has the advantage of Fulminating Rune costing Magicka, while Mag Arcanist’s rune costs stamina and leads to unmanageable stamina drain (along with flail, barbed trap, cloak, etc.).

Sorcerer is another build that hits higher peaks on Stamina builds. This is primarily due to the skill “Bound Armaments” which increases the stamina pool by 8%, and therefore increases all skill damage for stam builds without helping mag builds. Stam Sorc also synergizes well with stamina skills like Rapid Strikes, especially when using the Maelstrom Greatsword on the back bar. Magicka sorcerer lacks a good spammable, and most just hard cast Crystal Fragments (which works ok on a dummy, but not so good in difficult content that requires blocking/dodging).

My sorc doesn't use frags. But I'm running an oakensoul ha build.

What sets

ADarklore · January 18

They really need to do the Arcanist treatment to the other classes. Let skills be based on "max" or "min" resource.

Elsonso · January 18

ADarklore wrote: »

They really need to do the Arcanist treatment to the other classes. Let skills be based on "max" or "min" resource.

My magic user Arcanist has all points in Stamina.

Homogenization is a wonderful thing. I don't need to care where I put attributes.

CameraBeardThePirate · January 18

ADarklore wrote: »

They really need to do the Arcanist treatment to the other classes. Let skills be based on "max" or "min" resource.

I kinda disagree.

Only a handful of Arcanist's skills have a dynamic cost. This has the unfortunate effect of making Stamina Arcanist WAY easier to sustain than Magicka Arcanist - all of the abilities that don't dynamically scale cost Magicka, and many Arcanist abilities are extremely expensive. If you go max mag, you have to really go all in on max stat + sustain in order to not have sustain issues.

Other classes would likely see similar issues arise.

I'd much rather have what we have now. Having to balance your abilities with your sustain is probably the only cool part about how hybridization was implemented.

SmellyUnlimited · January 18

Is Bound Armaments good, never try it on stamina?[/quote]

I use it as a flex spot, but generally it’s pretty good. 8% stam, can be used after 5 attacks for a lower burst type of merciless resolve, and also has passives from the Daedric skill like for having it slotted on your bar. Limited room on bars for stam sorc since they have so many good tools you want to have barred (Hurricane, Crit surge, dark deal), then your weapon skills if running 2Hander like Carve, Reverse Slice, and Wrecking blow (or stampede if using a maelstrom 2Hander).

Running solo it’s even worse, since you basically need to slot caltrops too to get major breach.

moo_2021 · January 18

stamina attacks are much cooler! I love jumping and knocking a trash group with my giant hammer with bomb going off at the same time, leaving corpses everywhere.

magic attacks are just not fun, no matter what parsing or scoreboard says.

El_Borracho · January 18

yadibroz wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

There are a couple of builds that encourage stamina. Arcanist is the top example, as Cephaliarc’s Flail is the best class spammable and always costs stamina. Stam Arcanist also has the advantage of Fulminating Rune costing Magicka, while Mag Arcanist’s rune costs stamina and leads to unmanageable stamina drain (along with flail, barbed trap, cloak, etc.).

Sorcerer is another build that hits higher peaks on Stamina builds. This is primarily due to the skill “Bound Armaments” which increases the stamina pool by 8%, and therefore increases all skill damage for stam builds without helping mag builds. Stam Sorc also synergizes well with stamina skills like Rapid Strikes, especially when using the Maelstrom Greatsword on the back bar. Magicka sorcerer lacks a good spammable, and most just hard cast Crystal Fragments (which works ok on a dummy, but not so good in difficult content that requires blocking/dodging).

Is Bound Armaments good, never try it on stamina?

Yes, they are good. Run it in PVE and PVP.

yadibroz · January 18

El_Borracho wrote: »

yadibroz wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

There are a couple of builds that encourage stamina. Arcanist is the top example, as Cephaliarc’s Flail is the best class spammable and always costs stamina. Stam Arcanist also has the advantage of Fulminating Rune costing Magicka, while Mag Arcanist’s rune costs stamina and leads to unmanageable stamina drain (along with flail, barbed trap, cloak, etc.).

Sorcerer is another build that hits higher peaks on Stamina builds. This is primarily due to the skill “Bound Armaments” which increases the stamina pool by 8%, and therefore increases all skill damage for stam builds without helping mag builds. Stam Sorc also synergizes well with stamina skills like Rapid Strikes, especially when using the Maelstrom Greatsword on the back bar. Magicka sorcerer lacks a good spammable, and most just hard cast Crystal Fragments (which works ok on a dummy, but not so good in difficult content that requires blocking/dodging).

Is Bound Armaments good, never try it on stamina?

Yes, they are good. Run it in PVE and PVP.

I'm a magic sorcerer which never try it with stamina sorcerer and never try magic night blade so I wanna ask you which of the two version for both class is better for pve and pvp?

El_Borracho · January 18

yadibroz wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

yadibroz wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

There are a couple of builds that encourage stamina. Arcanist is the top example, as Cephaliarc’s Flail is the best class spammable and always costs stamina. Stam Arcanist also has the advantage of Fulminating Rune costing Magicka, while Mag Arcanist’s rune costs stamina and leads to unmanageable stamina drain (along with flail, barbed trap, cloak, etc.).

Sorcerer is another build that hits higher peaks on Stamina builds. This is primarily due to the skill “Bound Armaments” which increases the stamina pool by 8%, and therefore increases all skill damage for stam builds without helping mag builds. Stam Sorc also synergizes well with stamina skills like Rapid Strikes, especially when using the Maelstrom Greatsword on the back bar. Magicka sorcerer lacks a good spammable, and most just hard cast Crystal Fragments (which works ok on a dummy, but not so good in difficult content that requires blocking/dodging).

Is Bound Armaments good, never try it on stamina?

Yes, they are good. Run it in PVE and PVP.

I'm a magic sorcerer which never try it with stamina sorcerer and never try magic night blade so I wanna ask you which of the two version for both class is better for pve and pvp?

I would say a magblade is superior to a stamblade. Easier to play and the magicka morphs are better. Sorcs are a little different. In my opinion, a stam sorc is superior to a mag sorc, but an Oakensorc (one bar mag sorc with Oakensoul ring) is comparable to a stam sorc, and may outperform a stam sorc, if you aren't strong on your rotation.

Stx · January 19

Over the years, they have homogenized the two resource pools to be almost the exact same thing. It’s basically green magicka and blue magicka, and you pick whichever one has better class skill morphs, because usually there is a clear winner. Obviously if you are attached to a certain weapon type that will also have a big impact on your chosen resource too.

Mesite · January 19

I found controlling a magicka nightblade easier on PC with a mouse as I need to strafe. Stamina nightblade is better /easier on Xbox using the controller.

I didn't think it would make any difference.

Uvi_AUT · January 20

ADarklore wrote: »

They really need to do the Arcanist treatment to the other classes. Let skills be based on "max" or "min" resource.

The major downside is that Arcanist only has one style of gameplay. Stamina or Magicka uses exactly the same skills and exactly the same Gear. Thats really boring choice-wise.