We need Tank balancing...

Rektadon

[img]https://us.v-cdn.net/5020507/uploads/editor/5f/4ug62kpst6q2.png[/img This is 4 hits. this guy took out 7 of us in 4 hits with a dark convergence set. For reference cleave and its morphs have a base dmg of 1742. My self was on pack leader wolf with Phys resistance of 24k/1.4k crit resistance. no debuffs were applied at the time. That dmg in one cleave was boosted 869% of its base against my 24k resistance.. , Which also means based on the current system you're one shotting mages, and you don't need a healer since your own heals are going off of your same offensive stats... I cant scale Damage mitigation this same way..[/img]

Rektadon

Rektadon

I had to rescale the original image for some reason so i apologize guys.

React

The masters 2h scales up in damage significantly for each target it hits. He pulled you in with a volcanic rune to proc dark convergence, and landed several cleaves on your entire group.

This is exactly what the two sets are designed to do - kill clumps of players who are stacking too closely and not paying enough attention.

Honestly, both your crit resist and physical resist are far too low for the current PVP meta. You want to run at least 6 pieces of impen on your gear (and a reinforced heavy chest) if you don't have rallying cry or transmutation in your group. Generally it's good to be as close to 3300 crit resist as possible, as that is 50% crit damage reduction, which is the base crit damage modifier for all players.

Rektadon

React wrote: »

The masters 2h scales up in damage significantly for each target it hits. He pulled you in with a volcanic rune to proc dark convergence, and landed several cleaves on your entire group.

This is exactly what the two sets are designed to do - kill clumps of players who are stacking too closely and not paying enough attention.

Honestly, both your crit resist and physical resist are far too low for the current PVP meta. You want to run at least 6 pieces of impen on your gear (and a reinforced heavy chest) if you don't have rallying cry or transmutation in your group. Generally it's good to be as close to 3300 crit resist as possible, as that is 50% crit damage reduction, which is the base crit damage modifier for all players.

I wasn't on my tank set in this scenario i was on a stamina wolf with some focus on resistance. My issue is that dmg output is with only one person. if 2 people had that same set up that would have been impossible for anyone to survive. regardless. even in a situation with max out blocking which caps at 73% mitigation im taking 4088 dmg with an additional 9k resistance would drop that to 3.3k while blocking, in that scenario i wouldnt have gotten the opportunity to block which means at max resistance you're looking at 12.2k dmg a hit. with 33k hp that's 3 hits instead of 2 if im unable to get a heal in. He took out 7 in that ambush with no debuffs. You're not tanking 7 ppl with builds like this on the opposite end of the spectrum. over 2/3rds of the max allowable resistance should not be too low for anything in a balanced game. If that was multiple people i wouldn't be posting, but it was one guy 4 hits, 37k dmg against over 2/3s maximum allowable resistance in a 3 sec interaction, which means i only mitigated 2/3rds of his allowable dmg plus 25% of his critical. im not upset at the dmg output hes a dps and should be doing dmg. im upset that a tank cant be as viable in their role in the same scenerio as a dps in its role.

React

Rektadon wrote: »

React wrote: »

The masters 2h scales up in damage significantly for each target it hits. He pulled you in with a volcanic rune to proc dark convergence, and landed several cleaves on your entire group.

This is exactly what the two sets are designed to do - kill clumps of players who are stacking too closely and not paying enough attention.

Honestly, both your crit resist and physical resist are far too low for the current PVP meta. You want to run at least 6 pieces of impen on your gear (and a reinforced heavy chest) if you don't have rallying cry or transmutation in your group. Generally it's good to be as close to 3300 crit resist as possible, as that is 50% crit damage reduction, which is the base crit damage modifier for all players.

I wasn't on my tank set in this scenario i was on a stamina wolf with some focus on resistance. My issue is that dmg output is with only one person. if 2 people had that same set up that would have been impossible for anyone to survive. regardless. even in a situation with max out blocking which caps at 73% mitigation im taking 4088 dmg with an additional 9k resistance would drop that to 3.3k while blocking, in that scenario i wouldnt have gotten the opportunity to block which means at max resistance you're looking at 12.2k dmg a hit. with 33k hp that's 3 hits instead of 2 if im unable to get a heal in. He took out 7 in that ambush with no debuffs. You're not tanking 7 ppl with builds like this on the opposite end of the spectrum. over 2/3rds of the max allowable resistance should not be too low for anything in a balanced game. If that was multiple people i wouldn't be posting, but it was one guy 4 hits, 37k dmg against over 2/3s maximum allowable resistance in a 3 sec interaction, which means i only mitigated 2/3rds of his allowable dmg plus 25% of his critical. im not upset at the dmg output hes a dps and should be doing dmg. im upset that a tank cant be as viable in their role in the same scenerio as a dps in its role.

All you had to do was block the dark convergence pull. It has a massive AOE indicator and a distinct sound effect, and cleave has an extremely small radius. This is just an example of the sets doing exactly what they're intended to do.

Necrotech_Master

24k resist is pretty low in pvp honestly

on my NB i use for pvp, i have at least 13k penetration, without any debuffs on the target, that alone is ignoring ~50% of your current armor

just because you have no debuffs on you, theres no way to tell what the opponents self buffs (for dmg) and their penetration is at

also you mention the base dmg of cleave is like 1700 something, thats usually less than half of the tooltip i see on that skill for my dps toons (usually closer to 4-5k on tooltip), and not taking into account the master bonus, which is +1500 dmg per target it hits (if its only hitting you, that would still add +1500 dmg on to that, more targets = more dmg, i think it caps at 6 targets which is +9000 dmg on top of whatever their base tooltip was for the skill)

so if they were built for pure dmg, and hitting 6 targets, they could easily get a dmg hit of nearly 16-18k dmg before it rolls for crit

24k armor is only about 2/3 of the max for mitigation cap, so your probably only getting about 30% dmg mitigation from armor, if they were at 14k pen, you would only be getting effective armor of 10k, bringing the mitigation down to like 16% dmg mitigation, which would be hardly affecting the incoming dmg (probably why you were sitting hits of 13-15k from cleave)

Rektadon

React wrote: »

Rektadon wrote: »

React wrote: »

The masters 2h scales up in damage significantly for each target it hits. He pulled you in with a volcanic rune to proc dark convergence, and landed several cleaves on your entire group.

This is exactly what the two sets are designed to do - kill clumps of players who are stacking too closely and not paying enough attention.

Honestly, both your crit resist and physical resist are far too low for the current PVP meta. You want to run at least 6 pieces of impen on your gear (and a reinforced heavy chest) if you don't have rallying cry or transmutation in your group. Generally it's good to be as close to 3300 crit resist as possible, as that is 50% crit damage reduction, which is the base crit damage modifier for all players.

I wasn't on my tank set in this scenario i was on a stamina wolf with some focus on resistance. My issue is that dmg output is with only one person. if 2 people had that same set up that would have been impossible for anyone to survive. regardless. even in a situation with max out blocking which caps at 73% mitigation im taking 4088 dmg with an additional 9k resistance would drop that to 3.3k while blocking, in that scenario i wouldnt have gotten the opportunity to block which means at max resistance you're looking at 12.2k dmg a hit. with 33k hp that's 3 hits instead of 2 if im unable to get a heal in. He took out 7 in that ambush with no debuffs. You're not tanking 7 ppl with builds like this on the opposite end of the spectrum. over 2/3rds of the max allowable resistance should not be too low for anything in a balanced game. If that was multiple people i wouldn't be posting, but it was one guy 4 hits, 37k dmg against over 2/3s maximum allowable resistance in a 3 sec interaction, which means i only mitigated 2/3rds of his allowable dmg plus 25% of his critical. im not upset at the dmg output hes a dps and should be doing dmg. im upset that a tank cant be as viable in their role in the same scenerio as a dps in its role.

All you had to do was block the dark convergence pull. It has a massive AOE indicator and a distinct sound effect, and cleave has an extremely small radius. This is just an example of the sets doing exactly what they're intended to do.

im not disagreeing with you, maybe more context would help. this was IC. Which means you lose alot from dying . they had 20 man group. 1 player did this. and yes you are correct it did exactly what it was supposed to do. I only believe those numbers are unfair, because on the opposite end of the spectrum crunching the numbers in that entire scenario with block dmg would have dropped to 15k dmg total in 4 hits blocking with 33k hp and 1 or 2 others from the team i would be taken out (as a tank) at its peak a DPS can take out over half a squad of individuals. and its peak a tank can hold for a few moments longer against a meta dps build and a few moments longer against 2-3 dps players with decent builds. this is not balanced.

Rektadon

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

24k resist is pretty low in pvp honestly

on my NB i use for pvp, i have at least 13k penetration, without any debuffs on the target, that alone is ignoring ~50% of your current armor

just because you have no debuffs on you, theres no way to tell what the opponents self buffs (for dmg) and their penetration is at

also you mention the base dmg of cleave is like 1700 something, thats usually less than half of the tooltip i see on that skill for my dps toons (usually closer to 4-5k on tooltip), and not taking into account the master bonus, which is +1500 dmg per target it hits (if its only hitting you, that would still add +1500 dmg on to that, more targets = more dmg, i think it caps at 6 targets which is +9000 dmg on top of whatever their base tooltip was for the skill)

so if they were built for pure dmg, and hitting 6 targets, they could easily get a dmg hit of nearly 16-18k dmg before it rolls for crit

24k armor is only about 2/3 of the max for mitigation cap, so your probably only getting about 30% dmg mitigation from armor, if they were at 14k pen, you would only be getting effective armor of 10k, bringing the mitigation down to like 16% dmg mitigation, which would be hardly affecting the incoming dmg (probably why you were sitting hits of 13-15k from cleave)

Yes all of this is anti tank because you really don't need 13k penetration in the current meta to knock off 20-25k hp on a mage or melee main. and that's exactly the point my mitigation is maxed at about 40-50% at max resistance. there is nothing i can do to change my max outside of blocking. and all of this come with negative effects like movement penalty and stamina recovery lock. so if 6 enemies were built for pure dmg and i am build for pure defense i will survive slightly longer than the other 5 that died when i should be able to mitigate at peak in that same manner.

Necrotech_Master

Rektadon wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

24k resist is pretty low in pvp honestly

on my NB i use for pvp, i have at least 13k penetration, without any debuffs on the target, that alone is ignoring ~50% of your current armor

just because you have no debuffs on you, theres no way to tell what the opponents self buffs (for dmg) and their penetration is at

also you mention the base dmg of cleave is like 1700 something, thats usually less than half of the tooltip i see on that skill for my dps toons (usually closer to 4-5k on tooltip), and not taking into account the master bonus, which is +1500 dmg per target it hits (if its only hitting you, that would still add +1500 dmg on to that, more targets = more dmg, i think it caps at 6 targets which is +9000 dmg on top of whatever their base tooltip was for the skill)

so if they were built for pure dmg, and hitting 6 targets, they could easily get a dmg hit of nearly 16-18k dmg before it rolls for crit

24k armor is only about 2/3 of the max for mitigation cap, so your probably only getting about 30% dmg mitigation from armor, if they were at 14k pen, you would only be getting effective armor of 10k, bringing the mitigation down to like 16% dmg mitigation, which would be hardly affecting the incoming dmg (probably why you were sitting hits of 13-15k from cleave)

Yes all of this is anti tank because you really don't need 13k penetration in the current meta to knock off 20-25k hp on a mage or melee main. and that's exactly the point my mitigation is maxed at about 40-50% at max resistance. there is nothing i can do to change my max outside of blocking. and all of this come with negative effects like movement penalty and stamina recovery lock. so if 6 enemies were built for pure dmg and i am build for pure defense i will survive slightly longer than the other 5 that died when i should be able to mitigate at peak in that same manner.

mitigation is maxed out at 33k armor or 50% mitigation, you only have 24k armor, or about 2/3 of the armor resist cap (or about 36% mitigation), so your not getting the max resistance, and in fact its probably significantly less if anyone was running pen, 10-13k pen is a pretty avg number for a pvp dps, and is usually higher if that person was also running balorgh (i have seen some people report pen as high as 25k with full balorgh buff active)

Rektadon

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Rektadon wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

24k resist is pretty low in pvp honestly

on my NB i use for pvp, i have at least 13k penetration, without any debuffs on the target, that alone is ignoring ~50% of your current armor

just because you have no debuffs on you, theres no way to tell what the opponents self buffs (for dmg) and their penetration is at

also you mention the base dmg of cleave is like 1700 something, thats usually less than half of the tooltip i see on that skill for my dps toons (usually closer to 4-5k on tooltip), and not taking into account the master bonus, which is +1500 dmg per target it hits (if its only hitting you, that would still add +1500 dmg on to that, more targets = more dmg, i think it caps at 6 targets which is +9000 dmg on top of whatever their base tooltip was for the skill)

so if they were built for pure dmg, and hitting 6 targets, they could easily get a dmg hit of nearly 16-18k dmg before it rolls for crit

24k armor is only about 2/3 of the max for mitigation cap, so your probably only getting about 30% dmg mitigation from armor, if they were at 14k pen, you would only be getting effective armor of 10k, bringing the mitigation down to like 16% dmg mitigation, which would be hardly affecting the incoming dmg (probably why you were sitting hits of 13-15k from cleave)

Yes all of this is anti tank because you really don't need 13k penetration in the current meta to knock off 20-25k hp on a mage or melee main. and that's exactly the point my mitigation is maxed at about 40-50% at max resistance. there is nothing i can do to change my max outside of blocking. and all of this come with negative effects like movement penalty and stamina recovery lock. so if 6 enemies were built for pure dmg and i am build for pure defense i will survive slightly longer than the other 5 that died when i should be able to mitigate at peak in that same manner.

mitigation is maxed out at 33k armor or 50% mitigation, you only have 24k armor, or about 2/3 of the armor resist cap (or about 36% mitigation), so your not getting the max resistance, and in fact its probably significantly less if anyone was running pen, 10-13k pen is a pretty avg number for a pvp dps, and is usually higher if that person was also running balorgh (i have seen some people report pen as high as 25k with full balorgh buff active)

youre one hundred percent correct in your numbers. this wasnt a tank build it was a medium armor wolf build with some resistance focus for sustain. Youre expressing the exact issue. there is no Pen resistance for tanks. had i fallen into the same trap at full resistance based on the numbers my mitigation would have dropped that number to 12.2k dmg at max resistance. with 33k hp thats still a 3 hit kill. on top of this being IC and they had a 20 man team. 1 person pure dps can take out 7 individuals. but with this meta and build 1 person pure defense cannot mitigate or hope to mitigate 1 let alone 7 dps players. this isnt balance.

Necrotech_Master

there are 2 counters to penetration: more armor, and flat mitigations

more armor directly counters pen (why a lot of tanks have closer to 40k armor to ignore breach debuffs)

flat mitigations are calculated separated, and there is no hard counter for those except being able to remove the debuff

so major protection is giving you the equivalent of about 6600 armor that cannot be penetrated, however with flat mitigations those do have diminishing returns and not directly additive (so major + minor protection doesnt give exactly 15% dmg mitigation for example)

CameraBeardThePirate

Rektadon wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Rektadon wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

24k resist is pretty low in pvp honestly

on my NB i use for pvp, i have at least 13k penetration, without any debuffs on the target, that alone is ignoring ~50% of your current armor

just because you have no debuffs on you, theres no way to tell what the opponents self buffs (for dmg) and their penetration is at

also you mention the base dmg of cleave is like 1700 something, thats usually less than half of the tooltip i see on that skill for my dps toons (usually closer to 4-5k on tooltip), and not taking into account the master bonus, which is +1500 dmg per target it hits (if its only hitting you, that would still add +1500 dmg on to that, more targets = more dmg, i think it caps at 6 targets which is +9000 dmg on top of whatever their base tooltip was for the skill)

so if they were built for pure dmg, and hitting 6 targets, they could easily get a dmg hit of nearly 16-18k dmg before it rolls for crit

24k armor is only about 2/3 of the max for mitigation cap, so your probably only getting about 30% dmg mitigation from armor, if they were at 14k pen, you would only be getting effective armor of 10k, bringing the mitigation down to like 16% dmg mitigation, which would be hardly affecting the incoming dmg (probably why you were sitting hits of 13-15k from cleave)

Yes all of this is anti tank because you really don't need 13k penetration in the current meta to knock off 20-25k hp on a mage or melee main. and that's exactly the point my mitigation is maxed at about 40-50% at max resistance. there is nothing i can do to change my max outside of blocking. and all of this come with negative effects like movement penalty and stamina recovery lock. so if 6 enemies were built for pure dmg and i am build for pure defense i will survive slightly longer than the other 5 that died when i should be able to mitigate at peak in that same manner.

mitigation is maxed out at 33k armor or 50% mitigation, you only have 24k armor, or about 2/3 of the armor resist cap (or about 36% mitigation), so your not getting the max resistance, and in fact its probably significantly less if anyone was running pen, 10-13k pen is a pretty avg number for a pvp dps, and is usually higher if that person was also running balorgh (i have seen some people report pen as high as 25k with full balorgh buff active)

youre one hundred percent correct in your numbers. this wasnt a tank build it was a medium armor wolf build with some resistance focus for sustain. Youre expressing the exact issue. there is no Pen resistance for tanks. had i fallen into the same trap at full resistance based on the numbers my mitigation would have dropped that number to 12.2k dmg at max resistance. with 33k hp thats still a 3 hit kill. on top of this being IC and they had a 20 man team. 1 person pure dps can take out 7 individuals. but with this meta and build 1 person pure defense cannot mitigate or hope to mitigate 1 let alone 7 dps players. this isnt balance.

Armor is literally the counter/resistance to Pen. They're the same stat, just inverse.

And again, as React said, you could've negated all of the damage by simply blocking Dark Convergence and not getting pulled.

Sluggy

So your argument really doesn't sound like it's against tanks it sounds like it's against ballgroups. You said it was a twenty person group? There's your problem. With a well-equipped raid of twelve you can easily gain 10k weapon and spell damage, 60% crit chance. Max crit damage. And still have 40k hp and soft-capped armor. Simply put, if even one person in that group knows how to press three buttons in sequence you are as good as dead.