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Can something be done about Rez spam?

React
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This behavior is becoming increasingly more common. Players build these unkillable tanks with 50k-60k HP, and do nothing but spam resurrect people.

There is no counterplay to this. You can't kill them, and there is no consequence for them when you interrupt them - in fact they get rewarded because they receive CC immunity after being bashed, which prevents you from following up with a stun. They'll just sit there endlessly spamming rez on anybody that dies, and there is nothing you can do about it.

Resurrection should have some sort of penalty for being interrupted. For example, if you attempt to rez someone and you get interrupted, there should be a cooldown of something like 15 seconds until you're able to attempt a rez again. You also should not receive CC immunity when you are interrupted while resurrecting a player in PVP. There is no reason you should be rewarded for being interrupted performing an action that costs you no resources.

We've already got cooldowns on camps of 5 minutes per player, this behavior is similarly impactful and has no cooldown or counterplay whatsoever.

I bashed this person 37 times.

https://youtu.be/mtndHQfFh_E
Edited by React on January 9, 2024 7:30PM
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  • SeaGtGruff
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    I'm guessing that perhaps you might feel a bit differently if you were the one being resurrected. Or maybe not. Do you think it would better if ZOS were to simply remove the ability to resurrect other players at all in PvP zones? Besides, what is stopping you from killing the player who was just resurrected?
    I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!
  • React
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    SeaGtGruff wrote: »
    Do you think it would better if ZOS were to simply remove the ability to resurrect other players at all in PvP zones?

    No, there is no reason at all they should remove the ability to resurrect other players. I'm not suggesting that. You simply should not be able to sit there and spam resurrect another player while being repetitively interrupted with no repercussions. As I mentioned, you actually get rewarded with CC immunity for being interrupted.

    That is why I'd suggest a cooldown be placed on you if you get interrupted. Nothing crazy, just 15 - 30 seconds for being bashed or crushing shocked/venom arrowed out of a resurrection attempt.
    SeaGtGruff wrote: »
    Besides, what is stopping you from killing the player who was just resurrected?

    That player is a warden with 60k HP. You can't kill a player like that by yourself, if they're present at their keyboard. This person can hit themselves (and allies) with 20-25k polar wind heals, followed by a 5k+ per tick polar wind heal over time. They only cast defensive ults. Every skill on their bar is a defensive skill. They've got undeath, which is at 20% value when they're at 20k HP. You can't run them out of sustain by pressuring them, because they'll regain resources far faster than you'll be able to drain them by forcing them to heal by heavy attacking you with a resto staff for major mending + a hot (and because CP enabled sustain in PVP is just broken and far too high).

    Edit: My mistake, I misread your second part here. It took considerable maneuvering and outplaying to kill that player in the first place while this tank/healer was present. I had to line of sight them until I saw an opportunity where their buffs were down, the healer was split from them, I had all of my debuffs active on them and my buffs active, etc. Allowing them to be resurrected just resets the fight back to square one. No progress can be made while a player is present doing this, and it comes at 0 cost or risk to themselves.
    Edited by React on January 9, 2024 6:06AM
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  • SeaGtGruff
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    The player being resurrected is a nearly-unkillable Warden? Like, every single time, or just in that one instance? Either way, how did they get killed in the first place? Why are they having to be resurrected if they're all but unkillable? Granted, there are going to be situations in which you just can't seem to win, or even fight to a draw-- that's basically my situation whenever I decide to go to Cyrodiil. So I can appreciate your feelings of frustration. But putting my own frustrations aside and looking at it impersonally, it seems unfair to make a change as sweeping as that on the basis of an outlier case.
    I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!
  • React
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    SeaGtGruff wrote: »
    The player being resurrected is a nearly-unkillable Warden? Like, every single time, or just in that one instance? Either way, how did they get killed in the first place? Why are they having to be resurrected if they're all but unkillable? Granted, there are going to be situations in which you just can't seem to win, or even fight to a draw-- that's basically my situation whenever I decide to go to Cyrodiil. So I can appreciate your feelings of frustration. But putting my own frustrations aside and looking at it impersonally, it seems unfair to make a change as sweeping as that on the basis of an outlier case.

    My bad, I misread the last part of your comment. Refer to the edit above for my actual response.

    The person spamming resurrection is an unkillable warden. It isn't an outlier case, I run into people like this multiple times a session typically, and it seems it's becoming increasingly more common. All I am asking for is adequate counterplay, which really is the bare minimum in a fast faced action-combat game.
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  • Idinuse
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    Mmm, you look pretty darn unkillable yourself ;) , but I agree about 100% death immune players (and perma CCs btw) in PvP. It needs to go. They were very quick in "fixing" Plague Break to not work on NPC enemies, they need to think and do the same for Player Enemies and add cooldowns and other penalties on stuff when in Cyrodiil.
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  • React
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    Idinuse wrote: »
    Mmm, you look pretty darn unkillable yourself ;) , but I agree about 100% death immune players (and perma CCs btw) in PvP. It needs to go. They were very quick in "fixing" Plague Break to not work on NPC enemies, they need to think and do the same for Player Enemies and add cooldowns and other penalties on stuff when in Cyrodiil.

    There's a difference between not dying to less skilled players while maintaining a careful rotation, multiple buffs & heals, timing blocks and dodges, proper LOS, etc versus being a 60k health warden and pressing one burst heal every 5 seconds to undo 5 GCDS of someone who knows what they're doing parsing you.
    Edited by React on January 9, 2024 2:27PM
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  • CameraBeardThePirate
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    This 100%. Same goes for interrupting the person trying to grab the relic in BGs.

    There is no counterplay to a build intended to survive anything spamming rez or pick up on the relic. Your options are either continue to bash them endlessly, or get bored and allow them to get the rez/relic pick up. It's asinine.
  • CrazyKitty
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    React wrote: »
    This behavior is becoming increasingly more common. Players build these unkillable tanks with 50k-60k HP, and do nothing but spam resurrect people.

    There is no counterplay to this. You can't kill them, and there is no consequence for them when you interrupt them - in fact they get rewarded because they receive CC immunity after being bashed, which prevents you from following up with a stun. They'll just sit there endlessly spamming rez on anybody that dies, and there is nothing you can do about it.

    Resurrection should have some sort of penalty for being interrupted. For example, if you attempt to rez someone and you get interrupted, there should be a cooldown of something like 15 or 30 seconds until you're able to attempt a rez again. Perhaps being interrupted again within a minute would double that cooldown. You also should not receive CC immunity when you are interrupted while resurrecting a player in PVP. There is no reason you should be rewarded for being interrupted performing an action that costs you no resources.

    We've already got cooldowns on camps of 5 minutes per player, this behavior is similarly impactful and has no cooldown or counterplay whatsoever.

    I bashed this person 37 times.

    https://youtu.be/mtndHQfFh_E

    What is rez spamming? We can only rez one person at a time, and it takes time. A player can't attack or use any skills while rezzing another player, so what's the problem?
  • TechMaybeHic
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    Bashing a rez should have a debuff timer before they can rez again. Also, for general purposes; bashing should disrupt other actions as well, like repairing siege/keeps, burning siege, or operating siege.

    And the health scaling heals have always been a problem. More so since they decided it should also heal other players that did not at least give up some offense to get that huge tanky heal

  • React
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    CrazyKitty wrote: »
    React wrote: »
    This behavior is becoming increasingly more common. Players build these unkillable tanks with 50k-60k HP, and do nothing but spam resurrect people.

    There is no counterplay to this. You can't kill them, and there is no consequence for them when you interrupt them - in fact they get rewarded because they receive CC immunity after being bashed, which prevents you from following up with a stun. They'll just sit there endlessly spamming rez on anybody that dies, and there is nothing you can do about it.

    Resurrection should have some sort of penalty for being interrupted. For example, if you attempt to rez someone and you get interrupted, there should be a cooldown of something like 15 or 30 seconds until you're able to attempt a rez again. Perhaps being interrupted again within a minute would double that cooldown. You also should not receive CC immunity when you are interrupted while resurrecting a player in PVP. There is no reason you should be rewarded for being interrupted performing an action that costs you no resources.

    We've already got cooldowns on camps of 5 minutes per player, this behavior is similarly impactful and has no cooldown or counterplay whatsoever.

    I bashed this person 37 times.

    https://youtu.be/mtndHQfFh_E

    What is rez spamming? We can only rez one person at a time, and it takes time. A player can't attack or use any skills while rezzing another player, so what's the problem?

    The problem is that there is no counterplay to a person who is doing this. When a player is built in this manner, they aren't taking a risk by going for a rez - they get rewarded with CC immunity for being interrupted and can continually attempt to rez. The lack of a cooldown of any sort between attempts means that they can be attempting to do this as fast as once every 3-5 seconds, depending on how quickly you interrupted them.

    It doesn't matter that they're not casting skills while doing this. They can have hots rolling, defensive ults active, etc while making each attempt. The risk vs reward of bringing a player back into the fight and being given free CC immunity for being interrupted is not at all balanced.
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  • tincanman
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    I would be fundamentally opposed to the proposal to further slow down resurrection speed or otherwise introduce cooldowns when resurrection recovery was already nailed several patches back already.

    The guy in question is doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHINGE ELSE. If he chooses to run with a do-nothing-else tank build then that's fine - it would be a problem if he was also destroying everybody and everything around, which clearly is not happening. Also, it seems that even if that player succeeds in resurrection he/she remains alone as the 'companion' is obliterated shortly afterwards.

    It's a tank build which is clearly doing nothing else except .... well nothing, really.

    While I appreciate the OP's frustration, players should learn to recognise that sometimes they just can't win them all.


  • React
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    tincanman wrote: »
    I would be fundamentally opposed to the proposal to further slow down resurrection speed or otherwise introduce cooldowns when resurrection recovery was already nailed several patches back already.

    The guy in question is doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHINGE ELSE. If he chooses to run with a do-nothing-else tank build then that's fine - it would be a problem if he was also destroying everybody and everything around, which clearly is not happening. Also, it seems that even if that player succeeds in resurrection he/she remains alone as the 'companion' is obliterated shortly afterwards.

    It's a tank build which is clearly doing nothing else except .... well nothing, really.

    While I appreciate the OP's frustration, players should learn to recognise that sometimes they just can't win them all.


    That player is hitting 25k polar wind heals and 5k+ polar hots on themselves and one other person, or two other players if they're at full health, while being an unkillable 60k hp rez spamming tank. If i put the full unedited clip here, youd see that this individual makes anybody within 10 meters of them equally unkillable, with 0 effort or skillful gameplay. That hardly qualifies as "nothing else".

    Resurrection is overtuned and lacks adequate counterplay. This isn't about "winning them all". Players are behaving like this more and more frequently because they are coming to the realization that there is no counterplay to them doing this, and they will inevitably succeed.

    There needs to be a cooldown if you get interrupted, or at the absolute minimum you should not be rewarded with CC immunity for being interrupted while performing an action that costs you no resources.
    Edited by React on January 9, 2024 4:38PM
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  • KlauthWarthog
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    Interrupting an ability puts it on a 3 seconds cooldown. Interrupting a resurrect should do the same.
  • tincanman
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    In imperial city especially (which is a pvpve zone) consider yourselves (generally, not 'you' specifically) victims of your own success.

    Imperial city has become a ghost-town patrolled by a tiny few gankers with occassional questers who end up flattened while passing through. It is inevitable that such tank builds would become more prevalent in an attempt to simply survive the onslaught.

    And so what if he's healing in, what a 5m/8m radius? That's still ok - he's not killing ic bosses/trash and slurping up major tonnage of tv stones while doing so or slaughtering any opposing players in range, too.

    As for being 'rewarded' with cc immunity - that's disenguous hyperbole - he's not doing anything else; how exactly is this overvaunted 'cc immunity' being leveraged? In the posted video the guy just keeps trying to resurrect again and again; looks more like a newb to me.

    I remain unconvinced and I trust any devs reading this thread think likewise.
    Edited by tincanman on January 9, 2024 4:53PM
  • tincanman
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    React wrote: »
    tincanman wrote: »
    I would be fundamentally opposed to the proposal to further slow down resurrection speed or otherwise introduce cooldowns when resurrection recovery was already nailed several patches back already.

    The guy in question is doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHINGE ELSE. If he chooses to run with a do-nothing-else tank build then that's fine - it would be a problem if he was also destroying everybody and everything around, which clearly is not happening. Also, it seems that even if that player succeeds in resurrection he/she remains alone as the 'companion' is obliterated shortly afterwards.

    It's a tank build which is clearly doing nothing else except .... well nothing, really.

    While I appreciate the OP's frustration, players should learn to recognise that sometimes they just can't win them all.


    That player is hitting 25k polar wind heals and 5k+ polar hots on themselves and one other person, or two other players if they're at full health, while being an unkillable 60k hp rez spamming tank. If i put the full unedited clip here, youd see that this individual makes anybody within 10 meters of them equally unkillable, with 0 effort or skillful gameplay. That hardly qualifies as "nothing else".

    ...

    That's seems more an issue with healing which, on reflection, I'd agree should probably be looked at.
  • React
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    tincanman wrote: »

    And so what if he's healing in, what a 5m/8m radius? That's still ok - he's not killing ic bosses/trash and slurping up major tonnage of tv stones while doing so or slaughtering any opposing players in range, too.

    Suggesting that it's fine being able to hit other players with the strongest burst heal and HOT in the game while having 60k hp and zero investment into offensive heal boosting stats is laughable, and indicates that you lack an understanding of PVP balance.
    tincanman wrote: »
    As for being 'rewarded' with cc immunity - that's disenguous hyperbole - he's not doing anything else; how exactly is this overvaunted 'cc immunity' being leveraged? In the posted video the guy just keeps trying to resurrect again and again; looks more like a newb to me.

    This person is even further cementing their "unkillable" status by controlling when they can be stunned by spamming rez. Whether they intend to or not, by forcing me to bash them repetitively they are removing my ability to go for a burst with a stun an an opportune moment when I might actually be able to kill them.

    Interrupts are meant to be punishing. Things that can be interrupted are typically balanced power wise because of that. When you interrupt an ability, that person spent resources and was punished, and the ability is placed on a cooldown.

    There is no punishment when you are bashed out of a rez.

    Edited by React on January 9, 2024 5:00PM
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  • tincanman
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    React wrote: »
    tincanman wrote: »

    And so what if he's healing in, what a 5m/8m radius? That's still ok - he's not killing ic bosses/trash and slurping up major tonnage of tv stones while doing so or slaughtering any opposing players in range, too.

    Suggesting that it's fine being able to hit other players with the strongest burst heal and HOT in the game while having 60k hp and zero investment into offensive heal boosting stats is laughable, and indicates that you lack an understanding of PVP balance.

    ...

    See my post above. Apologies for appearing dismissive in my initial comments regarding healing.
  • SeaGtGruff
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    React wrote: »
    Whether they intend to or not, by forcing me to bash them repetitively they are removing my ability to go for a burst with a stun an an opportune moment when I might actually be able to kill them.

    They're "forcing" you "to bash them repetitively"? How are they "forcing" you to do anything? Don't you still have the same free will to choose what you want to do-- bash them, not bash them, dance, not dance, run away, not run away, etc.? How are you being "forced" to do anything that you aren't choosing to do?
    I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!
  • tincanman
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    ...
    React wrote: »
    ...

    There is no punishment when you are bashed out of a rez.

    Other than the resurrection failing. Which, in my view, suffices. The 'cooldown' already exists in the resurrection 'channel' time.
  • ClowdyAllDay
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    rezzing player is now considered spamming? good grief. anything you dont like in the game can not be spam just because you dont like it.

    i'm glad to see there's a real combat medic in the game. Desmond Doss is immortalized in Cyrodil! WOO!
  • Rhaegar75
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    Immortality, even if it is reached using legit mechanics, should never be achievable in any videogame. Sorry...it's boring!
  • ClowdyAllDay
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    CAlling it spam is an abuse of language.
  • Freilauftomate
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    Idinuse wrote: »
    They were very quick in "fixing" Plague Break to not work on NPC enemies, they need to think and do the same for Player Enemies and add cooldowns and other penalties on stuff when in Cyrodiil.

    If i remember correctly, they changed Plaguebreak only because one single person was able to do something crazy with it in PvE.
  • React
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    SeaGtGruff wrote: »
    React wrote: »
    Whether they intend to or not, by forcing me to bash them repetitively they are removing my ability to go for a burst with a stun an an opportune moment when I might actually be able to kill them.

    They're "forcing" you "to bash them repetitively"? How are they "forcing" you to do anything? Don't you still have the same free will to choose what you want to do-- bash them, not bash them, dance, not dance, run away, not run away, etc.? How are you being "forced" to do anything that you aren't choosing to do?

    The only way to win an outnumbered fight is to kill all of your opponents? If I let that person be resurrected, I'm back at square one and far more likely to be killed by the increased numbers they have? Should I instead just allow them to kill me? They attacked me, after all.

    PvP is meant to be a somewhat "competitive" environment where skillful counterplay exists, and where you are rewarded for employing mechanical knowledge and skill. The ability to repetitively spam resurrection with no counterplay is in contrast to this.

    Again, abilities have cooldowns when they are interrupted. Forward camps have a cooldown after you take them. Why doesn't rez have a cooldown after you're interrupted?



    tincanman wrote: »
    ...
    React wrote: »
    ...

    There is no punishment when you are bashed out of a rez.

    Other than the resurrection failing. Which, in my view, suffices. The 'cooldown' already exists in the resurrection 'channel' time.

    No, that doesn't add up. Some abilities also have a channel time, and they have a cooldown when they're interrupted. If anything, the longer channel on rez is indicative of it's significance and impact on a fight, which should in turn justify a longer cooldown when interrupted than that of less significant but still strong channel time player abilities.
    rezzing player is now considered spamming? good grief. anything you dont like in the game can not be spam just because you dont like it.

    i'm glad to see there's a real combat medic in the game. Desmond Doss is immortalized in Cyrodil! WOO!
    CAlling it spam is an abuse of language.

    You're reading too far into it. I'm not using the term "spam" as some sort of hateful language, I just mean that they're repetitively attempting to rez.

    Just yesterday I used the term "spamming" to describe a scenario where I repetitively casted impervious runeward in an attempt to reproduce a bug.
    Edited by React on January 9, 2024 6:30PM
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  • Vaqual
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    I think too many factors are being thrown together here. If you couldn't kill the guy full on bash weave-parsing on him, then it is hypothetically either your build that is too weak or his that is strong, but that is a separate discussion. If you are not able to kill him then, for whatever reason, there is no reason why he shouldn't be able to attempt rezzes without long waiting times, since your bash has no significant cooldown either.
    If other players are giving him enough cover fire to prevent you from going nuts on him and interrupting the rez, that is a group effort.
    There is no reason why the game should give you a larger time window to attack the rest of the group. Outnumbered play doesn't need this type of support, since it is anyway only based on the exploitation of cookie cutter builds and the victims inexperience. If there were competent players with meta builds around that guy that question wouldn't even arise.

    Asking for adjustments to wardens healing output = fair debate. Asking for a bit more time to slaughter noobs = cringe.

  • React
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    Vaqual wrote: »
    I think too many factors are being thrown together here. If you couldn't kill the guy full on bash weave-parsing on him, then it is hypothetically either your build that is too weak or his that is strong, but that is a separate discussion. If you are not able to kill him then, for whatever reason, there is no reason why he shouldn't be able to attempt rezzes without long waiting times, since your bash has no significant cooldown either.
    If other players are giving him enough cover fire to prevent you from going nuts on him and interrupting the rez, that is a group effort.
    There is no reason why the game should give you a larger time window to attack the rest of the group. Outnumbered play doesn't need this type of support, since it is anyway only based on the exploitation of cookie cutter builds and the victims inexperience. If there were competent players with meta builds around that guy that question wouldn't even arise.

    Asking for adjustments to wardens healing output = fair debate. Asking for a bit more time to slaughter noobs = cringe.

    Asking for a mechanic to be brought in line with other similar mechanics is "cringe"?

    Abilities have a cost and have cooldowns when they get bashed.

    Forward camps have a cooldown.

    Resurrection has no cooldown when bashed.

    Interruption is supposed to be a skillful counterplay mechanic that punishes a player for making a decision at an inopportune time, but in the case of resurrection it rewards them by giving them CC immunity. It's an outlier, and should be adjusted.
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  • tincanman
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    React wrote: »
    ... Some abilities also have a channel time, and they have a cooldown when they're interrupted. If anything, the longer channel on rez is indicative of it's significance and impact on a fight, which should in turn justify a longer cooldown when interrupted than that of less significant but still strong channel time player abilities...

    semantics.

    I think we'll have to agree to differ.
    Vaqual wrote: »
    ....

    Asking for adjustments to wardens healing output = fair debate. ...

    This, to me, this summarises, the potential issue and not any non-problem with resurrections.
  • CrazyKitty
    CrazyKitty
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    React wrote: »
    CrazyKitty wrote: »
    React wrote: »
    This behavior is becoming increasingly more common. Players build these unkillable tanks with 50k-60k HP, and do nothing but spam resurrect people.

    There is no counterplay to this. You can't kill them, and there is no consequence for them when you interrupt them - in fact they get rewarded because they receive CC immunity after being bashed, which prevents you from following up with a stun. They'll just sit there endlessly spamming rez on anybody that dies, and there is nothing you can do about it.

    Resurrection should have some sort of penalty for being interrupted. For example, if you attempt to rez someone and you get interrupted, there should be a cooldown of something like 15 or 30 seconds until you're able to attempt a rez again. Perhaps being interrupted again within a minute would double that cooldown. You also should not receive CC immunity when you are interrupted while resurrecting a player in PVP. There is no reason you should be rewarded for being interrupted performing an action that costs you no resources.

    We've already got cooldowns on camps of 5 minutes per player, this behavior is similarly impactful and has no cooldown or counterplay whatsoever.

    I bashed this person 37 times.

    https://youtu.be/mtndHQfFh_E

    What is rez spamming? We can only rez one person at a time, and it takes time. A player can't attack or use any skills while rezzing another player, so what's the problem?

    The problem is that there is no counterplay to a person who is doing this. When a player is built in this manner, they aren't taking a risk by going for a rez - they get rewarded with CC immunity for being interrupted and can continually attempt to rez. The lack of a cooldown of any sort between attempts means that they can be attempting to do this as fast as once every 3-5 seconds, depending on how quickly you interrupted them.

    It doesn't matter that they're not casting skills while doing this. They can have hots rolling, defensive ults active, etc while making each attempt. The risk vs reward of bringing a player back into the fight and being given free CC immunity for being interrupted is not at all balanced.

    Isn't it the same mechanic for a player trying to burn siege? Or a player that breaks free?

    I get your point, and it is annoying, but I fear your suggestion would have unwanted side effects to game play other than just when a player is rezzing another player.

    Not to mention that ZOS doesn't have much of a history of implementing suggestions made by the player base, no matter how good or bad the suggestions may be.

    Edited by CrazyKitty on January 9, 2024 6:52PM
  • Freilauftomate
    Freilauftomate
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    Rhaegar75 wrote: »
    Immortality, even if it is reached using legit mechanics, should never be achievable in any videogame. Sorry...it's boring!

    Nobody is immortal. The op is fighting 4 enemies at the same time, killed one of them and then almost killed the "unkillable tank" while being pressured by the remaining two. If there was a second player helping him, this fight would have been over in 10 seconds. You might not be able to kill every player on your own in this game, but you don't have to, you can always group up.

    He could have just let the warden revive the poor new PvP char and instantly kill him again while being low on resources (after being revived he would have been empty and low health). Or he could have just killed one of the other 2 players while the warden was busy reviving. Or idk, bomb them all at the same time after the dead player got up. So many opportunities, but he chose to focus the tank for some reason.

    What he really should have done, is just leave the poor questers alone and go fight someone else. They were obviously no match for him, and it always makes me sad watching videos like this. Good players should fight other good players and leave the low levels and "not really PvP" players alone until they really want to fight.

    I am a mediocre player, maybe even bad, but when i fight someone who is worse and obviously has no clue what they are doing, i will slow down, let them recover and make a training session out of it. You have to give new players a chance, or they might not come back to play PvP ever again. Maybe it's not possible to do this in the middle of a big battle for a keep, but when there is noone else around, there is no need to be overly aggressive. I wish at least some of the "gods" in Cyrodiil would do the same.
  • Freilauftomate
    Freilauftomate
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    Of course i have no idea what was really going on in this fight, i just saw a short clip and assumed the op was there to farm some noobs. Sorry if i was wrong.
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