Whats breaking cloak v 99999

DrNukenstein · January 22

Vaqual wrote: »

Doc they built a strawman for you, you have to let it burn.

Damn I just snitched on myself.

StaticWave · January 22

DrNukenstein wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I actually don't have bar space. I'm sure you and many others know the recipe to a successful brawling build on any class, but I'll just say it anyways for those who don't know:

1) You need an instant cast spammable
2) You need at least 2 HoTs
3) You need a decent burst heal spammable
4) You need a few DoTs

Stamsorc currently checks 3 of those conditions. It has an instant cast spammable with Master DW and Blood Craze. It has 2 HoTs with Vigor and Surge. It has several DoTs with Hurricane and Blood Craze. What it currently lacks is a burst heal spammable. Dark Deal is more like a sustain skill than a burst heal because you can be interrupted, so it's not really reliable. You have to use 2H, which means giving up an instant cast spammable and a DoT, or you'd have to use a Shield, which means speccing for max Mag and becoming a magsorc, or max HP, which means losing out on a lot of damage.

Most of the good brawling classes don't have this issue because they have a true burst heal. If I want to fit Structured Entropy, I'd have to drop my Shield. There would be no way for me to protect myself from the execute phase if I get low.

Except structured entropy literally fits your requirements for a viable build more than BA or curse does. That's what flex slots are for. So you can flex from the broadly useful curse or BA to a build that is more focused on locking down those pesky cloak abusers by using structured entropy instead of one of the former.

I have used both Entropy and Curse/BA in my build. Here is the damage comparison:

Entropy - 600 non crit and 1.3k crit, ticks every 2 seconds
Curse - 4.5k non crit and 8.5k crit, ticks after 3.5 seconds and 8.5 seconds
BA - 1.2k non crit and 2.3k crit per dagger, can be used at any stacks

Comparing Entropy vs Curse, we can see that for Entropy to deal equivalent non crit dmg, it would need to tick 7.5 times, or almost 14 seconds. Within 14 seconds, Curse has already hit twice and dealt 9k total non crit damage. You would need to have Entropy ticking for 30 seconds to deal equivalent damage.

Comparing Entropy vs BA, it gets even worse. Since most people use BA at 4 stacks, and BA deals 4800 non crit damage at 4 stacks, it would require Entropy to tick for 16 seconds to deal equivalent damage. You know what happens in 16 seconds? I can cast BA 4 times, dealing 19200 damage. Entropy now has to tick 64 seconds to deal equivalent damage. You get the point.

What about utility? Well, this is what these skills provide:

Entropy - increases max mag and mag recovery by 2% when slotted, heals for 600 non crit and 1.3k crit every 2 seconds, removes NB from Cloak every 2s

Curse - Increase stam and hp regen by 20% when slotted, increases wd/sd by 2% when slotted, removes NB from Cloak every 3.5s and 8.5s, restores 300 stam/mag when it explodes

BA - Increases stam and hp regen by 20% when slotted, increases wd/sd by 2% when slotted, increases max stam and hp by 8% on both bars when slotted, restores 300 stam/mag when used, removes NB from Cloak when used at the moment they enter Cloak

So Curse gives similar utility to Entropy, and BA puts Entropy to shame with the amount of utility it has. Picking BA over Entropy is a no brainer. Picking Curse or Entropy will be decided on the damage component, and we’ve established that Curse deals significantly more damage, so it is also a no brainer to pick Curse.

Entropy’s only purpose is to reveal NB. BA and Curse outshine it in every other way. There is no reason for me to slot Entropy in its current state over the class skills I currently have.

Vaqual · January 22

StaticWave wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I actually don't have bar space. I'm sure you and many others know the recipe to a successful brawling build on any class, but I'll just say it anyways for those who don't know:

1) You need an instant cast spammable
2) You need at least 2 HoTs
3) You need a decent burst heal spammable
4) You need a few DoTs

Stamsorc currently checks 3 of those conditions. It has an instant cast spammable with Master DW and Blood Craze. It has 2 HoTs with Vigor and Surge. It has several DoTs with Hurricane and Blood Craze. What it currently lacks is a burst heal spammable. Dark Deal is more like a sustain skill than a burst heal because you can be interrupted, so it's not really reliable. You have to use 2H, which means giving up an instant cast spammable and a DoT, or you'd have to use a Shield, which means speccing for max Mag and becoming a magsorc, or max HP, which means losing out on a lot of damage.

Most of the good brawling classes don't have this issue because they have a true burst heal. If I want to fit Structured Entropy, I'd have to drop my Shield. There would be no way for me to protect myself from the execute phase if I get low.

Except structured entropy literally fits your requirements for a viable build more than BA or curse does. That's what flex slots are for. So you can flex from the broadly useful curse or BA to a build that is more focused on locking down those pesky cloak abusers by using structured entropy instead of one of the former.

I have used both Entropy and Curse/BA in my build. Here is the damage comparison:

Entropy - 600 non crit and 1.3k crit, ticks every 2 seconds
Curse - 4.5k non crit and 8.5k crit, ticks after 3.5 seconds and 8.5 seconds
BA - 1.2k non crit and 2.3k crit per dagger, can be used at any stacks

Comparing Entropy vs Curse, we can see that for Entropy to deal equivalent non crit dmg, it would need to tick 7.5 times, or almost 14 seconds. Within 14 seconds, Curse has already hit twice and dealt 9k total non crit damage. You would need to have Entropy ticking for 30 seconds to deal equivalent damage.

Comparing Entropy vs BA, it gets even worse. Since most people use BA at 4 stacks, and BA deals 4800 non crit damage at 4 stacks, it would require Entropy to tick for 16 seconds to deal equivalent damage. You know what happens in 16 seconds? I can cast BA 3 times, dealing 14400 damage. Entropy now has to tick 48 seconds to deal equivalent damage. You get the point.

What about utility? Well, this is what these skills provide:

Entropy - increases max mag and mag recovery by 2% when slotted, heals for 600 non crit and 1.3k crit every 2 seconds, removes NB from Cloak every 2s

Curse - Increase stam and hp regen by 20% when slotted, increases wd/sd by 2% when slotted, removes NB from Cloak every 3.5s and 8.5s, restores 300 stam/mag when it explodes

BA - Increases stam and hp regen by 20% when slotted, increases wd/sd by 2% when slotted, increases max stam and hp by 8% on both bars when slotted, restores 300 stam/mag when used, removes NB from Cloak when used at the moment they enter Cloak

So Curse gives similar utility to Entropy, and BA puts Entropy to shame with the amount of utility it has. Picking BA over Entropy is a no brainer. Picking Curse or Entropy will be decided on the damage component, and we’ve established that Curse deals significantly more damage, so it is also a no brainer to pick Curse.

Entropy’s only purpose is to reveal NB. BA and Curse outshine it in every other way. There is no reason for me to slot Entropy in its current state over the class skills I currently have.

You were specifically complaining about a ranged NB who was cloaking. You can even combine curse, entropy and ele sus for almost full uptime on cloak suppression, with a little tracer spark to find your NB after shading. He was explaining you the merit of using entropy as counter, that it comes at a cost was clear from the beginning. Did you expect it to be better DPS?

SandandStars · January 22

I didnt know what Dr Nuke runs, but was curious how he could get by without major breach.

I just cant imagine dropping 6000 pen on any of my magsorc builds.

Brakkish · January 22

StaticWave wrote: »

At least with 3 DKs I can see where they are and take the appropriate measures. How am I supposed to do anything when 3 NBs are Cloaking left and right lol.

A well made tank with flare shows up and all NBs grab their toys and go home.

DrNukenstein · January 22

SandandStars wrote: »

I didnt know what Dr Nuke runs, but was curious how he could get by without major breach.

I just cant imagine dropping 6000 pen on any of my magsorc builds.

It's easy. Find a combination of procs that can fire together and then you have an entire ultimate that you can fire outside of the GCD, even weave it with another ultimate. You can't build enough stats to get that much damage on any class.

I like doing it with NB (not using concealed weapon BTW) because I prefer cloak for delivering it. I realize that I limit my own damage ceiling and complicate the delivery by missing out on minor expedition and major berserk. But, with by investing in a proc bonanza, I can afford to drop some damage for utility. (less down time from using a stam spammable with dual wield)

Any class really could do the same thing, and probably get more damage out of it at the expense of a more difficult delivery method. A sorc streaking through someone and then slapping them with a short heavy would not be that far off. And a DK leaping on someone before weaving a short heavy with a whip would turn the map into wasteland.

Galeriano · January 23

DrNukenstein wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

And... the guy 'happens to be playing' that very archer nb setup. What coincidence...

I don't play archer, that's for degenerates.

I use a 4 proc build and they all fire with one heavy attack. Technically any class could run it, DK in particular would get more damage out of it.

I run 10k pen+minor breach. Major Breach on top of that really isn't that much extra damage.

Saying that archer is for degenerates and that immidiately admitting to using HA setup with 4 procs leaves me a bit confused.

StaticWave · January 23

Vaqual wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I actually don't have bar space. I'm sure you and many others know the recipe to a successful brawling build on any class, but I'll just say it anyways for those who don't know:

1) You need an instant cast spammable
2) You need at least 2 HoTs
3) You need a decent burst heal spammable
4) You need a few DoTs

Stamsorc currently checks 3 of those conditions. It has an instant cast spammable with Master DW and Blood Craze. It has 2 HoTs with Vigor and Surge. It has several DoTs with Hurricane and Blood Craze. What it currently lacks is a burst heal spammable. Dark Deal is more like a sustain skill than a burst heal because you can be interrupted, so it's not really reliable. You have to use 2H, which means giving up an instant cast spammable and a DoT, or you'd have to use a Shield, which means speccing for max Mag and becoming a magsorc, or max HP, which means losing out on a lot of damage.

Most of the good brawling classes don't have this issue because they have a true burst heal. If I want to fit Structured Entropy, I'd have to drop my Shield. There would be no way for me to protect myself from the execute phase if I get low.

Except structured entropy literally fits your requirements for a viable build more than BA or curse does. That's what flex slots are for. So you can flex from the broadly useful curse or BA to a build that is more focused on locking down those pesky cloak abusers by using structured entropy instead of one of the former.

I have used both Entropy and Curse/BA in my build. Here is the damage comparison:

Entropy - 600 non crit and 1.3k crit, ticks every 2 seconds
Curse - 4.5k non crit and 8.5k crit, ticks after 3.5 seconds and 8.5 seconds
BA - 1.2k non crit and 2.3k crit per dagger, can be used at any stacks

Comparing Entropy vs Curse, we can see that for Entropy to deal equivalent non crit dmg, it would need to tick 7.5 times, or almost 14 seconds. Within 14 seconds, Curse has already hit twice and dealt 9k total non crit damage. You would need to have Entropy ticking for 30 seconds to deal equivalent damage.

Comparing Entropy vs BA, it gets even worse. Since most people use BA at 4 stacks, and BA deals 4800 non crit damage at 4 stacks, it would require Entropy to tick for 16 seconds to deal equivalent damage. You know what happens in 16 seconds? I can cast BA 3 times, dealing 14400 damage. Entropy now has to tick 48 seconds to deal equivalent damage. You get the point.

What about utility? Well, this is what these skills provide:

Entropy - increases max mag and mag recovery by 2% when slotted, heals for 600 non crit and 1.3k crit every 2 seconds, removes NB from Cloak every 2s

Curse - Increase stam and hp regen by 20% when slotted, increases wd/sd by 2% when slotted, removes NB from Cloak every 3.5s and 8.5s, restores 300 stam/mag when it explodes

BA - Increases stam and hp regen by 20% when slotted, increases wd/sd by 2% when slotted, increases max stam and hp by 8% on both bars when slotted, restores 300 stam/mag when used, removes NB from Cloak when used at the moment they enter Cloak

So Curse gives similar utility to Entropy, and BA puts Entropy to shame with the amount of utility it has. Picking BA over Entropy is a no brainer. Picking Curse or Entropy will be decided on the damage component, and we’ve established that Curse deals significantly more damage, so it is also a no brainer to pick Curse.

Entropy’s only purpose is to reveal NB. BA and Curse outshine it in every other way. There is no reason for me to slot Entropy in its current state over the class skills I currently have.

You were specifically complaining about a ranged NB who was cloaking. You can even combine curse, entropy and ele sus for almost full uptime on cloak suppression, with a little tracer spark to find your NB after shading. He was explaining you the merit of using entropy as counter, that it comes at a cost was clear from the beginning. Did you expect it to be better DPS?

You don't think I haven't tried combining all 3? It's not like I haven't fought them lol. I have, and this is my experience fighting them. I'm not pulling stuff out of thin air to argue. Like I said earlier, Pulseblades run really high movement speed and they can juke you in between the soft counters.

I don't expect it to be better DPS, but Cloak is the only ability in the game that forces me and everyone else to slot a specific counter for it. You have to go out of your way to counter it, whereas with Streak for example you can just be ranged or stack movement speed which is really easy to get. Now that Cloak gets Major Savagery for slotting on your bar, I think it's warranted that this skill either receive a nerf.

OnGodiDoDis · January 23

DrNukenstein wrote: »

GooGa592 wrote: »

Oh lord how I wish what you posted was true. That's how it should work. When NB's take damage, they should be pulled out of cloak, every time. That's how it supposed to work. Why would anyone expect it to be otherwise?

Oh lord, is there anything in the game that stops streak from working as advertised?

*I don't want to hear "gap closers" or "move fast" because those are not the same as entirely shutting down cloak for 20+ seconds.

Cloak is the most powerful defensive skill. It allows you to avoid damage for 3 seconds, allowing your HoTs to do their job. It's also a great offensive skill. You can set up your combo in peace, from the shadows, and 2-piece anyone or bomb an entire group. Can you give a good reason as to why you should be allowed to be permanently cloaked in a combat zone? Is it wrong to force NBs to participate in combat in a combat zone?

olsborg · January 23

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

GooGa592 wrote: »

Oh lord how I wish what you posted was true. That's how it should work. When NB's take damage, they should be pulled out of cloak, every time. That's how it supposed to work. Why would anyone expect it to be otherwise?

Oh lord, is there anything in the game that stops streak from working as advertised?

*I don't want to hear "gap closers" or "move fast" because those are not the same as entirely shutting down cloak for 20+ seconds.

Cloak is the most powerful defensive skill. It allows you to avoid damage for 3 seconds, allowing your HoTs to do their job.

But....the whole point of this thread. That is not the case, maybe 1 out of 10 cloaks you get to stay in cloak for 3s, otherwise it gets broken by burning, overharged or concussion proccs left and right. Im all for cloak counters, active counters, but passive stuff that break it all the time is not cool.

Luede · January 23

olsborg wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

GooGa592 wrote: »

Oh lord how I wish what you posted was true. That's how it should work. When NB's take damage, they should be pulled out of cloak, every time. That's how it supposed to work. Why would anyone expect it to be otherwise?

Oh lord, is there anything in the game that stops streak from working as advertised?

*I don't want to hear "gap closers" or "move fast" because those are not the same as entirely shutting down cloak for 20+ seconds.

Cloak is the most powerful defensive skill. It allows you to avoid damage for 3 seconds, allowing your HoTs to do their job.

But....the whole point of this thread. That is not the case, maybe 1 out of 10 cloaks you get to stay in cloak for 3s, otherwise it gets broken by burning, overharged or concussion proccs left and right. Im all for cloak counters, active counters, but passive stuff that break it all the time is not cool.

maybe it seems like that on your client, on my client the NB is regularly not visible for 3 seconds. but maybe it just seems that way to me.

CrazyKitty · January 23

olsborg wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

GooGa592 wrote: »

Oh lord how I wish what you posted was true. That's how it should work. When NB's take damage, they should be pulled out of cloak, every time. That's how it supposed to work. Why would anyone expect it to be otherwise?

Oh lord, is there anything in the game that stops streak from working as advertised?

*I don't want to hear "gap closers" or "move fast" because those are not the same as entirely shutting down cloak for 20+ seconds.

Cloak is the most powerful defensive skill. It allows you to avoid damage for 3 seconds, allowing your HoTs to do their job.

But....the whole point of this thread. That is not the case, maybe 1 out of 10 cloaks you get to stay in cloak for 3s, otherwise it gets broken by burning, overharged or concussion proccs left and right. Im all for cloak counters, active counters, but passive stuff that break it all the time is not cool.

I wish this were true.

fred4 · January 23

StaticWave wrote: »

I don't expect it to be better DPS, but Cloak is the only ability in the game that forces me and everyone else to slot a specific counter for it. You have to go out of your way to counter it, whereas with Streak for example...

I find it hugely ironic that you should mention Streak in the very next sentence, the one skill from any class that is slotted by every PvP sorc and that counters Cloak like nothing else, at least when combined with a detection potion.

This is an RPG. People use different tools. They play different classes. 1v1 encounters are only roughly balanced. That's all you could hope for. It's rock, paper, scissors.

Cloak is a polarizing skill, because when it works, it's incredibly strong and unique. All I want to say is: Play a nightblade long enough and you will encounter player(s) against whom Cloak doesn't work. This includes the many tanky players who can shake off ganks and don't actively hunt nightblades. On the other hand it includes players and groups who make the sacrifice to expose or actively hunt nightblades. That is how the game is balanced. Not by how your single build performs in individual situations, but statistically by how many players choose to counter each other. If the latter is lopsided and everyone runs the same thing, then ZOS have a problem. On the other hand, if there is one sorc or one nightblade who complains their build isn't working against some opponents, that's par for the course. Much as I like playing a universal build myself, you can't have your cake and eat it, because this is an RPG.

When I say Cloak is polarizing, I'm not just referring to this thread. I mean how it functions in game. It can be extremely effective or extremely ineffective, depending on whom you are facing. Although it's rare for my nightblade to be hard-countered continuously, that has occasionally happened for a whole evening and I've felt like throwing the character away. My point is that, without barriers to using those counters, Cloak could easily become complete trash. Balance relies on only some players choosing to counter nightblades, and on an influx of new players who simply don't know how.

Cloak is one of the few truly class-defining skills left. This hybrid meta has swallowed up much of what made classes unique. One beneficiary of that has arguably been class balance, but I don't think this was a good way of achieving it. Classes got homogenised. Problematic skills got sidelined. Cloak is arguably a vestige of the old ways, whereas shielding magsorc got destroyed. I know that and - much as I hated magsorcs as a long-term magblade - I'm sorry that happened. It's IMO not good for the game when all classes converge on the center, now dominated by generic skills, such as Rending Slashes / Master dual-wield.

I see the pushing of players, such as yourself, ultimately leading to more homogenisation, if ZOS were to listen to you. Shields proved to be hard to balance, due to their brittle nature. When they worked, they worked exceedingly well in the past. Now it's a non-issue, because shielding magsorc has become so non-meta. Cloak is a similar skill in how brittle it is. That said, the skill has already been nerfed. Yes, the adding of the crit buff has been a boon. However, as a defensive tool, Cloak has already lost much of it's former utility. In the distant past, there was a morph that purged. Then, for a long time, it suppressed DOTs. Those times are already gone and that's already a problem in a meta where DOTs last 20 seconds and where strong DOTs are part of the meta. Some nightblades, such as me, are back-barring Wyrd, because DOTs either kill us or knock us out of cloak. Those of us who truly like to perma-cloak, and make that playstyle work, are hanging on by such means while they're available.

For @OnGodiDoDis, who mistakenly thinks you have peace and can heal in cloak, I also want to point out that Offering cancels Cloak and you can't refresh your HOT, Swallow Soul, in Cloak, if you even use that skill. The healing opportunities in Cloak are actually few and far between. Rally is one, but Rally is no longer a meta skill. This conspires to Cloak spam, while hanging on for dear life with DOTs eating away at you, frequently being your best course of action. In other words, even on my build, which heavily leans on Cloak and has the sustain for it, there is pressure to uncloak in order to heal. I just offer this as a reality-check. That's what it's actually like to play a cloaking nightblade.

StaticWave · January 23

fred4 wrote: »

I find it hugely ironic that you should mention Streak in the very next sentence, the one skill from any class that is slotted by every PvP sorc and that counters Cloak like nothing else, at least when combined with a detection potion.

1) Every PvP Sorc slots Streak because we don’t have a burst heal and will fold without it

2) I find it ironic that you included Streak + detect potion to claim that Streak counters Cloak like nothing else, when it’s more so detect potion that’s doing all of the work since it’s a hard counter. Ever try to Streak a cloaking NB that doesn’t go in a straight line without detect potions? Tell me how that goes.

SandandStars · January 23

Cloak is strong
Concealed weapon is strong
Merciless is unparalled
Healthy offering is a top burst heal
Incap is strong & cheap
Constant Minor Expedition for slotting one of the best high dmg, instant cast spammables in the game, also giving easy access to Major Berserk
The list goes on…

All great skills! Fun to use in pvp. No problem at all, until you start comparing it to other classes’ toolkits.

I understand that NB is many people’s favorite class and has been for a long time. And I sympathize with your position. But trying to pretend like the class is not out of balance just isn’t credible.

Try playing a different class in battlegrounds for a couple of hours. See how it goes.

It’s time to make some adjustments to improve the quality of PVP.

fred4 · January 23

StaticWave wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I find it hugely ironic that you should mention Streak in the very next sentence, the one skill from any class that is slotted by every PvP sorc and that counters Cloak like nothing else, at least when combined with a detection potion.

1) Every PvP Sorc slots Streak because we don’t have a burst heal and will fold without it

Of course, they do. Your point is? Shouldn't it count in sorc's favor that they have a universal skill, useful against nightblades? That is certainly how I experience it as the nightblade. Sorcs are, by far, the most dangerous opponents in open world, since they deliberately or accidentally expose you, if you are too close. No other class does that.

As to the burst heal, I agree that's a problem on sorc, although I'd argue sorc probably needs better viability of shields in contemporary builds, or something, rather than ZOS giving in and making them bland, like everything else. Maybe a 20s pet that can't die, can be single-barred, but must be refreshed? I don't know.

2) I find it ironic that you included Streak + detect potion to claim that Streak counters Cloak like nothing else, when it’s more so detect potion that’s doing all of the work since it’s a hard counter. Ever try to Streak a cloaking NB that doesn’t go in a straight line without detect potions? Tell me how that goes.

I play sorc, but only rarely. I agree it's not easy. However, as a nightblade, I really have to have my wits about me. Good sorcs can be extremely good at anticipating where the nightblade will be and their reaction times can be extremely fast. By that I mean (a) they drop everything and very aggressively go after the NB and (b) Streak is a responsive skill in a way that Cloak is not. Cloak does not include movement. As a magblade, getting up to speed involves a second GCD, casting RAT.

If you are not the nightblade hunter in your group on a sorc, then that is IMO your choice. You haven't invested in either the build, the skill / experience, or the will to hunt nightblades. I'm only surmising that involves potions, by the way. I am sure it does - I use them myself - but I don't know how often it does. Not always. Also, of course it's annoying to hunt nightblades. You won't always get them and you will stalemate good ones, just like you will stalemate, say, tanky players who are good at their discipline.

Turtle_Bot · January 24

Sorcs are typically better at countering NB, but that is mostly because they are FORCED TO.

Sorcs don't have the luxury of simply turtling up and healing off the damage a NB brings, their only defense is to stay completely mobile to hopefully prevent the NB from setting up on them in the first place.

This got significantly harder over the past 2 years with the abundance of speed that has been given out (especially to NB) that means that sorcs mobility is nowhere near as strong as it used to be and with how easy it has become to set up NBs burst compared to how much used to go into setting that up (things like major berserk on concealed, stacks not expiring on MR, etc).

These factors have forced sorcerer players to become very aware of NBs around them and to actively hunt down NBs when they can because if they don't they are easy food for NB because of how sorcerer functions.

You said it yourself

Good sorcs can be extremely good at anticipating where the nightblade will be and their reaction times can be extremely fast. By that I mean (a) they drop everything and very aggressively go after the NB.

The only sorc players left are either the good players that you have described, or players in huge zergs where the group covers for the sorcerers weaknesses. Both will make life difficult for NBs, but it's not exclusively because of sorcerer itself, it is sorcerer in tandem with significant external factors (player skill/group size) that makes this possible.
These factors also don't stop the recent force pulse gankblades that have recently popped up more and more. I've played a version of that build and gone against that build and as I said before, that build makes the old savage werewolf procsorc (a build using a BUGGED set) look balanced by comparison and it is nowhere near squishy either, with 30k health and the healing and defensive tools available to it that all classes (outside of polar wardens) can only dream of having.

You also need to understand that you are playing a very off-meta (almost role play) style of NB. You play to purely sustain cloak indefinitely and you choose to give up on so much else to do so (it's the same thing for sorcs who choose to give up everything to squeeze in that 1 extra cast of streak), which is fine since that's how you enjoy the class, but you must also understand that the majority of NB players are not playing the class in this way and how they are playing the class is causing/exposing huge balance issues with cloak in PvP right now.

They are including every defensive tool they have been given over the past 2 years (and there have been a lot) that makes it so that cloak is an unnecessary giant cherry on top of an already strong and well rounded build that doesn't need cloak in the first place, but since the bar space for everything else is so efficient, they have the flexibility to still slot it anyway as another extremely efficient offensive/defensive tool, especially after they gave cloak major prophecy/savagery on both bars just for slotting it on either bar which not only boosts NBs considerable offensive burst with more crits, but its defensive capabilities with significantly more healing as well (exactly what we told ZOS would happen when they gave this buff to cloak disguised as "QoL").

Something to note about RaT requiring the second GCD, it can also be precast before using cloak since the speed and immunity lasts 4 seconds so you can actually lead into cloak with it and have the speed up and running before cloak is even used. This was something I used to do on my NB to escape enemies very easily before I swapped RaT for refreshing path (which can also be precast before using cloak) to have another heal on top of offering + vigor because blur gives me snare immunity already on top of major evasion AND dodge roll cost reduction.

StaticWave · January 24

fred4 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I find it hugely ironic that you should mention Streak in the very next sentence, the one skill from any class that is slotted by every PvP sorc and that counters Cloak like nothing else, at least when combined with a detection potion.

1) Every PvP Sorc slots Streak because we don’t have a burst heal and will fold without it

Of course, they do. Your point is?

My point is because the class lacks a burst heal spammable, it has to use Streak to get to the nearest line of sight as quickly as possible to heal up with HoTs and Dark Deal/Conversion. Sorc would have no issue dropping Streak if it received a true burst heal. Look at NB for example. Ever since it got a burst heal spammable, it's done pretty amazing as a brawling class.

fred4 wrote: »

If you are not the nightblade hunter in your group on a sorc, then that is IMO your choice. You haven't invested in either the build, the skill / experience, or the will to hunt nightblades. I'm only surmising that involves potions, by the way. I am sure it does - I use them myself - but I don't know how often it does. Not always. Also, of course it's annoying to hunt nightblades. You won't always get them and you will stalemate good ones, just like you will stalemate, say, tanky players who are good at their discipline.

At least with stacking movement speed to counter sorcs, I can use it for other purposes. Investing so much to counter Cloak is useless for other scenarios. I don't know if you're trolling or not, but insinuating that I have to invest that much to counter 1 ability as a solo and small group player means there's something wrong with NB.

fred4 · January 24

We should maybe talk on Discord some time. It would be so much easier to bounce ideas off each other. For now, though, I will play devil's advocate in favor of my class, e.g. nightblade.

I should also say that I don't accept the game must be balanced based solely on the needs of and inputs from competitive players. I think that should be a major factor, but not the only one. I take issue with the idea of cloak fatigue, for example, because that would have collateral damage for cool playstyles, such as being able cloak through a dungeon or for how you would play in Imperial City as a player who wants to mainly avoid PvP.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Sorcs are typically better at countering NB, but that is mostly because they are FORCED TO.

Believe me, I know the feeling from way back. I didn't start out as a nightblade, you know. I started as a stam DK, but I felt squishy against stamblades, back then. I did learn to duel some, but I always felt the intense pressure of having to be on your A game against an opponent who worked on such a high damage level, both dealt and taken, and who forced you to work to their timetable.

Sorcs don't have the luxury of simply turtling up and healing off the damage a NB brings, their only defense is to stay completely mobile to hopefully prevent the NB from setting up on them in the first place.

Staying mobile is good advice for anyone. Other than that, two words: Esoteric Greaves. You will never be successfully ganked again (rhetorical question: what happened to shields anyway?). I use them on magblade myself. I think they make perfect sense on a Dark Dealing sorc as well, at least against nightblades. Worth a try. They are not a panacea and may even be a drawback against Crushing Shock / status effect builds, but I don't know. Build like a dueller, or a ganker, and expect to take a lot of damage. Don't want to sacrifice a 5-piece for tankiness? Wear the greaves.

That said, I believe I do know what you're getting at. You could probably make the kind of tradeoffs I'm talking about, but you're not going to, because your damage becomes too low, reducing you to ... shock horror ... a zergling? When a class is lacking overall, the class may be too compromised. You can only shift what your compromises are with theory-crafting, but not eliminate them. I get that. I'm just not 100% sure I believe it. Magsorc? Yes. Stam / hybrid sorc? Errrr...

This got significantly harder over the past 2 years with the abundance of speed that has been given out (especially to NB)

Hmm. I believe that. It's been the overall trajectory of the game. Came in Summerset. Got toned down. Gradually crept back in, for example via CP and Wild Hunt. That said, when you're specifically talking about nightblade, Path has always granted Major Expedition and Concealed had a 10% speed nerf and became a generic named buff. I've been the poster child for being at speed cap most of the time. In the current meta I am not anymore. Maybe the average NB is faster, due to running Concealed for the damage, but I don't know. I've always run Concealed.

that means that sorcs mobility is nowhere near as strong as it used to be

I can believe that is overall the case, yeah.

and with how easy it has become to set up NBs burst compared to how much used to go into setting that up (things like major berserk on concealed, stacks not expiring on MR, etc).

The stacks not expiring outside of combat is actually insane. I agree on that one. In Wrobel's time that would have caused an outcry, now I'm not sure whether it did. The Concealed buff is a named buff now. Super competitive (stam)blades were running Sea Serpent in the past. Now they basically can't and I believe no other mythic comes close for damage. I kind of agree on the Concealed buff too. For me, personally as a magblade with the build I run, it - and Soulcleaver - has lifted my damage to where it now feels decent, but not OP in my build. The problem, I assume, is when stamblades / hybridblades use Concealed, or even use it passively, although I have run into one still using Surprise Attack and they weren't bad.

These factors have forced sorcerer players to become very aware of NBs around them and to actively hunt down NBs when they can because if they don't they are easy food for NB because of how sorcerer functions.

Like I said: Esoteric Greaves. 100% gank protection. As for sorcs hunting NBs, such sorcs have always existed, some still outdamage or outplay me, but they overall feel more balanced now than in the past. Honestly magsorc needed to fall hard from it's historic heights and, unfortunately, it's been completely destroyed. I also agree that nightblade has had some inexplicable, though welcome from my PoV, damage buffs, e.g. the cloak crit buff, the Merciless Resolve rework - mostly the stacks remaining out of combat, and perhaps the Concealed buff. I would have been happy if the speed buff from Concealed applied to both bars, with no damage increase. Magblade has very steadily risen. Stamblade has benefitted from hybrid. I get that.

These factors also don't stop the recent force pulse gankblades that have recently popped up more and more. I've played a version of that build and gone against that build and as I said before, that build makes the old savage werewolf procsorc (a build using a BUGGED set) look balanced by comparison and it is nowhere near squishy either, with 30k health and the healing and defensive tools available to it that all classes (outside of polar wardens) can only dream of having.

I probably don't play Cyro / BGs enough, as that build seemed like a fad for a week or two to me. Something like Charged weapon, Draugrkin, Winterborn, Balorgh, waste your Dawnbreaker, then Snipe into Crushing Shock? How prevalent is that really? I run into all kinds of NBs in Cyro - Blackrose bow for example - not just that one. Now I know that this puts DOTs on you, it's kind of a combination of burst and DOT pressure that doesn't kill you instantly, but quickly nonetheless. At the end of the day I understand sorc healing sucks and, if this comes from range and also interrupts your Dark Dealing, yeah, that is sorc hell. It's you anti-build. Then again, what else is new? Anti-builds exist, not just for your spec. A burst heal and Cloak will save me as a nightblade from that particular attack. Burst heals are important, but they aren't everything either. Since Cloak doesn't suppress DOTs anymore and Ele Sus / Structured Entropy / Curse / Healthy Offering (!), and so on, knock you out of cloak, even nightblade doesn't fully have the answer here. It's heals are not actually as good as those of the Brawler classes (nor should they be, I guess). This is basically why I'm running Wyrd.

Something to note about RaT requiring the second GCD, it can also be precast before using cloak since the speed and immunity lasts 4 seconds so you can actually lead into cloak with it and have the speed up and running before cloak is even used. This was something I used to do on my NB to escape enemies very easily

Funnily enough, casting the skills in that order has never worked for me. I've tried. I'm basically too squishy and too low health, probably since I prioritise sustain. Absent a Shadow Image, I have to go from block-casting Offering into possibly a dodge roll, into possibly LoS, into Cloak, and then RAT. Anyhow it doesn't matter. It's two GCDs either way.

fred4 · January 24

StaticWave wrote: »

My point is because the class lacks a burst heal spammable, it has to use Streak to get to the nearest line of sight as quickly as possible to heal up with HoTs and Dark Deal/Conversion.

I'm aware of that, and I'm aware of the difficulties with the pets as heals. On the other hand I believe the cast time on Dark Deal was a deliberate choice by ZOS that was probably a good compromise at the time, e.g. while sorc was in better shape and in a different meta. I'm personally not against better healing / shielding options - something - to help sorc here. That said, you think nightblade is not paying for Cloak, you're wrong. A friend just switched from one of the Brawler classes, DK or warden, to NB. He didn't even want to use Cloak, so he made a nightblade brawler build and quickly realised it's not the same. He felt squishy. He couldn't carelessly waltz into a fight, like he had before. Paraphrasing, but basically his words, not mine. That could be teething issues, but I do believe nightblade feels naturally squishier than other classes. The same should IMO remain true for sorc, if to a lesser degree. The classs is still about Streak and movement, however eroded that may be in the current meta. Paying a price for the mobility and utility of that skill is IMO not wrong. We can only argue about the size of that price.

Sorc would have no issue dropping Streak if it received a true burst heal. Look at NB for example. Ever since it got a burst heal spammable, it's done pretty amazing as a brawling class.

But why would you want to and why would you not use Cloak on a nightblade? I know that ZOS have the whole "play as you want thing" and some players don't want to make multiple characters. Personally I don't get that at all. If you want to play a Brawler class, there are multiple other classes available for that. Playing those also grants you a better insight into PvP as a whole.

At least with stacking movement speed to counter sorcs, I can use it for other purposes.

Are you saying NBs stack speed to counter sorcs? Good god, no. They need it as a general defense mechanism. Cloak without either speed or Shadow Image doesn't work well against anyone.

Investing so much to counter Cloak is useless for other scenarios. I don't know if you're trolling or not, but insinuating that I have to invest that much to counter 1 ability as a solo and small group player means there's something wrong with NB.

I am not trolling and I'm not saying you need to invest into fighting nightblades. You only need to not die. Nightblades, if they're careful and experienced enough, may always choose to disengage unilaterally. That's how they draw a fight.

Are you saying you die to nightblades regularly? Turtle-Bot was making this point, e.g. saying that offense is the only option to deal with them. I've played sorc too. I'm not sure I believe it. It depends on your sorc. You could try the Esoteric Greaves, like I said. You want to play a brawler, you could literally play a Brawler (Master 2H) stamsorc. That's what I do. I'm not heavily invested in the class, so I play something easy, true. At any rate, the Brawler shield is surprisingly good at papering over sorc's healing issues. In fact, for carelessly entering and leaving a brawl at will, the combination of Brawler, Crit Surge and Streak is pretty insane. Nothing beats Streak to get you out of a jam without preparation, quite unlike nightblade. The tactical utility of Streak is unmatched. Cloak is more strategic to disengage with. It really only works in conjuction with other skills, such as RAT, Shadow Image, another snare removal skill and/or a dodge roll with a bow.

Turtle_Bot · January 24

fred4 wrote: »

I probably don't play Cyro / BGs enough, as that build seemed like a fad for a week or two to me. Something like Charged weapon, Draugrkin, Winterborn, Balorgh, waste your Dawnbreaker, then Snipe into Crushing Shock? How prevalent is that really? I run into all kinds of NBs in Cyro - Blackrose bow for example - not just that one. Now I know that this puts DOTs on you, it's kind of a combination of burst and DOT pressure that doesn't kill you instantly, but quickly nonetheless. At the end of the day I understand sorc healing sucks and, if this comes from range and also interrupts your Dark Dealing, yeah, that is sorc hell. It's you anti-build. Then again, what else is new? Anti-builds exist, not just for your spec. A burst heal and Cloak will save me as a nightblade from that particular attack. Burst heals are important, but they aren't everything either. Since Cloak doesn't suppress DOTs anymore and Ele Sus / Structured Entropy / Curse / Healthy Offering (!), and so on, knock you out of cloak, even nightblade doesn't fully have the answer here. It's heals are not actually as good as those of the Brawler classes (nor should they be, I guess). This is basically why I'm running Wyrd.

The build does not use snipe (no bow on either bar), it's an inferno staff heavy into force pulse followed immediately by cloak to force a double crit. I know the front bar set and thanks to all the status and DoTs that those 2 attacks provide, it adds up to an insane amount of damage. I have some ideas on what the second set is, but nothing solid on that one and definitely nothing I'm going to speculate in public as NB are already strong enough without that build becoming well known on top of it.

I will say though that the build is not squishy by any means, like I said, I tried counter ganking it with a more brawler focused version (defensive set back bar) and it still only did ~50% of their 30k health in damage while their full damage version was dealing 90%+ damage to players with 35k+ health (or essentially 1 shot players under 33k). They also had a full defensive rotation on the back bar with HoTs, offering, RaT, cloak, etc so even though I got them to 50% health, 1 block or roll + offering into cloak with their HoTs still ticking and they were back at full health with another gank 3 seconds later.

Funnily enough, casting the skills in that order has never worked for me. I've tried. I'm basically too squishy and too low health, probably since I prioritise sustain. Absent a Shadow Image, I have to go from block-casting Offering into possibly a dodge roll, into possibly LoS, into Cloak, and then RAT. Anyhow it doesn't matter. It's two GCDs either way.

Hmmm, definitely sounds like you are over investing into sustain if this is your experience then, it could also be a timing thing. Because of my ping/delay I tend to start my defensive rotation slightly earlier than most players would to account for this, so it was very reliable for me since I would be using cloak the same as someone on better ping, but I would be pre-buffed from RaT/refreshing earlier because I started my defensive rotation that 1 gcd earlier.

Brakkish · January 24

fred4 wrote: »

<snip>This includes the many tanky players who can shake off ganks and don't actively hunt nightblades. On the other hand it includes players and groups who make the sacrifice to expose or actively hunt nightblades.

You're not wrong!

I mean if it's objective mode, what else does a tank have to do besides stand on flags and harrass NBs into getting themselves caught/chewed up/melted.

OnGodiDoDis · January 25

.

For @OnGodiDoDis, who mistakenly thinks you have peace and can heal in cloak, I also want to point out that Offering cancels Cloak and you can't refresh your HOT, Swallow Soul, in Cloak, if you even use that skill. The healing opportunities in Cloak are actually few and far between. Rally is one, but Rally is no longer a meta skill. This conspires to Cloak spam, while hanging on for dear life with DOTs eating away at you, frequently being your best course of action. In other words, even on my build, which heavily leans on Cloak and has the sustain for it, there is pressure to uncloak in order to heal. I just offer this as a reality-check. That's what it's actually like to play a cloaking nightblade.[/quote]

Thank you for clarifying that you would not survive without cloak. Obvioisly, you're quite inexperienced so let kindly me alleviate your ineptitude. You're supposed to pop your HoTs before you cloak. The end. Your misunderstanding on the proper use of cloak is not argument enough to warrant a rework. This will just make people that know how to use it that much more powerful.

OnGodiDoDis · January 25

olsborg wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

GooGa592 wrote: »

Oh lord how I wish what you posted was true. That's how it should work. When NB's take damage, they should be pulled out of cloak, every time. That's how it supposed to work. Why would anyone expect it to be otherwise?

Oh lord, is there anything in the game that stops streak from working as advertised?

*I don't want to hear "gap closers" or "move fast" because those are not the same as entirely shutting down cloak for 20+ seconds.

Cloak is the most powerful defensive skill. It allows you to avoid damage for 3 seconds, allowing your HoTs to do their job.

But....the whole point of this thread. That is not the case, maybe 1 out of 10 cloaks you get to stay in cloak for 3s, otherwise it gets broken by burning, overharged or concussion proccs left and right. Im all for cloak counters, active counters, but passive stuff that break it all the time is not cool.

I understand your view but there is literally no reason to be cloaked 100% of the time. You're just avoiding combat at that point. No other class has a bail-out like a NB, they just cloak and disappear. Even sorcs with their streak can be chased down. You have to see both sides of cloak: defensive and offensive. How much would an unbreakable cloak skyrocket their offensive power? If anything, I would say the 3-second guaranteed invisibility is too long. It's long enough to do a full heavy attack-incap-bow combo without being noticed. Let's not even mention bombing. No other class can bomb or kill like NBs, solely because of cloak.

fred4 · January 25

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

I understand your view but there is literally no reason to be cloaked 100% of the time. You're just avoiding combat at that point.

There are many fun and semi-serious reason why you might want to perma-cloak:

I just did my weekly endeavour - 7 dungeons - by cloaking through those dungeons, except for two boss fights.
I use my nightblade for surveys and antiquities without accidentally triggering fights.
You can avoid all unwanted NPC interaction in Imperial City, while moving fast and freely.
You can approach flag guards that would detect you, if you merely crouched.
You can linger in hostile keeps, which you may attempt to siege from the inside.
You can burn siege, before someone stops you.
You can set or burn forward camps faster than other builds might, because you need to be less circumspect.
You can scout for your group.
You avoid being ganked.

fred4 · January 25

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Thank you for clarifying that you would not survive without cloak. Obvioisly, you're quite inexperienced so let kindly me alleviate your ineptitude. You're supposed to pop your HoTs before you cloak. The end.

For the benefit of everyone else reading this, I was pointing out that NB does not have a native HOT that I can think of, other than Swallow Soul. There are obviously builds that might include one. The main ones I can think of are Vigor and Regeneration. I don't use Vigor, because it conflicts with the Esoteric Greaves in my build. I've tried, but not found it a good combination. I don't use resto staff, because I've long found the block cost reduction from ice staff or 1H+S more valuable for the way I play.

Of course I have also nowhere claimed I could not survive without cloak. In fact, I was pointing out quite the opposite, namely that cloak is not a panacea. E.g. I do not agree with the blanket statement that "It allows you to avoid damage for 3 seconds, allowing your HoTs to do their job".

Your misunderstanding on the proper use of cloak is not argument enough to warrant a rework.

I am not the OP and did not ask for a rework. That said, I do agree with the OP in so far as ZOS themselves tidied up detection mechanics two or three years ago. I believe this was the patch when Expert Hunter / Magelight gained an increased tick frequency or range, when AOEs, such as Hurricane, would not longer uncloak you, and so on. Instead of having vague and somewhat ad hoc rules, ZOS strengthened the designated detection methods, while cutting down on accidentally implemented detection. I think players also gained the detection eye above their head as well, finally visible to all. However, it was only one or two patches later that Structured Entropy was discovered to be seriously broken. I don't believe it always was, or not right after that patch anyway. It would be nice if ZOS had better quality assurance, tbh, because I think Structured Entropy working the way it does is accidental, an "it's not a bug, it's a feature" situation.

Turtle_Bot · January 25

NB does have multiple HoTs inherently though.

- Refreshing path (yes its ground based, but it is a good HoT and it also gives major expedition and gives another way to proc concealed berserk).
- Dark cloak (other morph of invis), this was OP, but then got over nerfed, it needs fine tuning but it can be made good without being OP if ZOS puts the effort into doing this.
- Swallow soul (offensive HoT on a spammable)
- Siphoning strikes/morphs (this requires weaving L/H attacks, but it is as much of a HoT as crit surge is, in fact its better because it is easier to proc AND gives sustain).
- Soul Siphon (other morph of tether), this is a very strong heal + HoT, I've seen tooltips where this skill can reach easily 50k+ on its HoT component).
- Consuming Darkness, while technically it is a HoT for allies only (the synergy provides a very strong HoT equal to soul siphon above), it is still a HoT in the class kit, the same way that atro is technically major berserk access in the sorcerer kit.

That's 5 self HoTs (+1 group HoT for allies) that NB has within its class kit.

NB also has the refreshing shadows passive that is an unnamed +15% to all recoveries just for existing (doesn't even require slotting anything). That is another 15% health recovery that can be stacked with the minor and major fortitude (health recovery) buffs for a total of +60% to health recovery. If undeath wasn't so strong and vampire wasn't as synergistic with NB's entire kit as it currently is, that would be an absurd amount of permanent bonus health recovery that would be on par with any HoT, even in cyrodiil.

olsborg · January 25

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

- Soul Siphon (other morph of tether), this is a very strong heal + HoT, I've seen tooltips where this skill can reach easily 50k+ on its HoT component).

Unusable in pvp, its a pure heal , just like restoration ulti, but if you also put 0.4 cast time on restoulti, noone would use it, you will be dead before it starts healing you.

Turtle_Bot · January 25

olsborg wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

- Soul Siphon (other morph of tether), this is a very strong heal + HoT, I've seen tooltips where this skill can reach easily 50k+ on its HoT component).

Unusable in pvp, its a pure heal , just like restoration ulti, but if you also put 0.4 cast time on restoulti, noone would use it, you will be dead before it starts healing you.

It is still a heal over time ability that heals the NB as well as their group. Usable or "not". It also has a huge radius of 28m and the same damage/heal synergy for allies that tether has, meaning you're just factually wrong that it is a "pure heal".

Also, cast times never seemed to stop NBs from slotting tether/incap over "instant" ultimates like meteor or faster casting ultimates like Dawnbreaker or Onslaught, including slotting tether as a defensive ultimate instead of sword and shield ultimate or resto ultimate.

Resto also forces you to slot resto staff on the back bar giving up a lot of mitigation in the process. Slotting soul siphon allows you to slot a different weapon on the back bar (frost staff or sword and shield) and still have a super strong heal ultimate on the back bar.

fred4 · January 25

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

NB does have multiple HoTs inherently though.

There are big playability differences between:

A HOT you can cast without a target while in cloak (AFAIK doesn't exist).
A HOT you can cast without a target that uncloaks you.
A HOT that requires a target.
Healing from damage, which isn't a HOT at all.
Ground based skills.

- Refreshing path (yes its ground based, but it is a good HoT and it also gives major expedition and gives another way to proc concealed berserk).

As a cloaking, speed-based NB, I've always regarded this as unsuitable for half of NB playstyles, such as mine. I never stay on it and it leaves an enemy-visible trace on the ground, as far as I'm aware. I understand it's quite popular with other playstyles, especially tankier ones. However, since we're talking about Cloak and how other skills stack to make Cloak viable / powerful, I assume you'll concede that staying on and healing from your path, while in cloak, would make you a sitting duck. You're invisible, but you left a marker on the ground.

- Dark cloak (other morph of invis), this was OP, but then got over nerfed, it needs fine tuning but it can be made good without being OP if ZOS puts the effort into doing this.

Now you're kidding, right? This is a thread about Shadowy Disguise. Are we now comparing the versatility of classes, e.g. pure brawler sorc without Streak and nightblade without Cloak? Why? I grant you that NB is versatile, even if my friend's experience actually contradicts it (see above), but I don't see how relevant that is to this discussion.

- Swallow soul (offensive HoT on a spammable)

I run this and I think it's, finally, quite good as a PvP heal, when you're running Soulcleaver. I don't know how popular it is, though. For example Crushing Shock / Force Pulse is noticeably more pressure (at least certainly without Soulcleaver), due to destro passives (pen), status effects, it being 3 hits, and the interrupt against sorcs. Surprise Attack / Concealed is also more damage (without Soulcleaver). If you want the Major Berserk, then you need to slot Concealed passively. Yes, you do get a CC possibility and the Berserk with that, so it's not a complete waste, but essentially you're slotting two spammables.

- Siphoning strikes/morphs (this requires weaving L/H attacks, but it is as much of a HoT as crit surge is, in fact its better because it is easier to proc AND gives sustain).

I disagree. First of all Crit Surge has no damage scaling and is seriously strong in PvE and decent in PvP, when it works. I realise the latter caveat is really important, but nonetheless. It is super easy to proc from Hurricane, from DOTs, from any damage you do. The problem with sorc healing isn't that it's weak. It's how inconsistent and difficult to access it can be, e.g. when not in melee range for Crit Surge, or when you've sacrificed two skill slots for a pet that can be killed. Let's say you build for 30% crit and you use Crushing Shock + Ele Sus, though, you still have a decent proc chance, even from range. What does NB have? A skill with half the tooltip (or thereabouts, not sure how it scales these days) that only procs from light attacks. Honestly, those skills are apples and oranges. Siphoning Attacks / Leeching Strikes fills roles from both Crit Surge and Dark Deal, while being weaker than either of those skills in my book. It's really hard for me to quantify how much healing it does, if I'm honest, because I've always run it, but I do so to help with cloak sustain. The healing has been a nice to have, never the main reason I run the skill.

- Soul Siphon (other morph of tether), this is a very strong heal + HoT, I've seen tooltips where this skill can reach easily 50k+ on its HoT component).

Are we counting ultimates now? Are you suggesting I run an ultigen build to heal? Are you suggesting I use anything but my offensive ult in PvP? These are such bad ideas. The main problem I find with any defensive (burst) healing / shielding ultimate is that they can be so hard to activate under duress. There is something about the 400ms delay or other, hidden, timings in ESO, that makes using those ultimates really dodgy in practice, and not just when there's lag. Speaking as a solo player, while facing the intense pressure that can come with that.

- Consuming Darkness, while technically it is a HoT for allies only (the synergy provides a very strong HoT equal to soul siphon above), it is still a HoT in the class kit, the same way that atro is technically major berserk access in the sorcerer kit.

You said it. This entire post is very technical. I'm not sure how much it contributes to the discussion.

Like I said, I get the problems with sorc and I'm sympathetic. I just don't like it when that turns into a discussion on why Cloak is OP, should be nerfed, or why NBs can't talk about their problems too. I see the OP's post more as exasperation with the unofficial ways Cloak can be broken. As I've stated above, ZOS made a fix patch a while ago, where they really did tidy up the rules surrounding Cloak and even strengthened the official detection methods, e.g. the skills that say they will break Cloak. Since then, some bugs have crept back into the game. Ele Sus is just nasty in every way, not just against NBs. You might argue that's intentional and it only uncloaks them every 7.5s. Structured Entropy, however, is just a flat out bug, as far as I can see. The only reason that's not a major issue is either that (new) players don't know about it, or how unattractive it is as a general skill.

That is another 15% health recovery that can be stacked with the minor and major fortitude (health recovery) buffs for a total of +60% to health recovery. If undeath wasn't so strong and vampire wasn't as synergistic with NB's entire kit as it currently is, that would be an absurd amount of permanent bonus health recovery that would be on par with any HoT, even in cyrodiil.

You're not seriously suggesting that anyone, but some outliers, still build for health recovery in PvP, are you? Also, slotting, say Bound Armaments on one bar, while putting the Atro on the other, isn't exactly a big sacrifice in a sorc build. That gives you +20% health recovery.