There needs to be a major breach for the stamsorc

Marcus_Justicia

Hello, I find it unfortunate that the sorcerer is dependent on skill trees other than his own to access a major breach.
While the majority of classes have the major breach or even the minor breach the sorcerer has neither.
The only solutions available to the sorcerer and
-sharp points (assault)
-susceptibility to the elements (sticks of destruction)
-pierces armor (1 shield hand)
-"psijic spammable (only at a distance to be viable)

All of these skills force the player to drastically adapt their build around it to remain competitive.
Builds based mainly on class skills are disadvantaged.
I suggest that the crystal weapon should access this major breach instead of the 1000 armor reduction.
Indeed this one has been nerfed and is no longer as competitive as its magical counterpart.

I would like to point out that my remarks are more aimed at PvP.

SkaraMinoc

I'd rather have the duration of Dark Deal's Minor Force and Minor Berserk extended from 10 to 20 seconds.

Pelanora

Is sharp points- caltrops? That's gorgeous. I'm always going to think of it like that now. 😀

SandandStars

Stamsorc is strong enough in pvp wo breach synergizing w a class skill (like haunting curse),

Magsorc could really use it, but there’s your Catch-22. 🙁

SmellyUnlimited

NB’s use to have it but they removed it in favor of minor breach instead. MagDK’s don’t have it either, unless they run the poison breath morph. I think razor caltrops is a good enough skill easily available that it’s not a big burden on stam sorcs to use. Think of all the class passive bonuses they get, not to mention Hurricane and critical surge, which no stamina class has that kind of survivability as the sorc.

OBJnoob

Not sure why people are saying magsorc needs it but not stamsorc. If one needs it then so does the other. If you think the proc sets stamsorc uses to be competitive are so liberating, effective, and cool then by all means use them on your magsorc.

What's even the difference? Crystal Weapon -vs- Frags?

With light armor penetration passives, Destro penetration passives, and Ele Sus, stamsorc clearly needs major breach more.

What weakness do magsorcs have that Stamsorc's don't? Do Stamsorc's have a burst heal I forgot about? Can they streak more? Shield bigger?

SandandStars

@OBJnoob , Have you tried running a sorcerer using a staff as your primary/only weapon? Not trying to be salty in any way, just genuinely curious. I mean in a big way it’s just a thematic thing, the idea of running a sorc that uses the staff and ranged skills primarily (classic mage), versus one that utilizes melee skills, i.e. dual wield/rending & hurricane, or spamming 2h dizzy/execute with hurricane.

They seem like very different animals, no?

JerBearESO

[Snip]. At this point, what do buffs even mean? They are supposed to be an aspect of diversity but now every build is demanded to have every buff/debuff basicly, at least the considered standard ones at this time but at this rate the less standard ones will creep in and at some point every ability will have every buff/debuff lol.

Just build for it. It IS supposed to work that way

[Edited for minor bait]

OBJnoob

I've played magsorc with a staff, yes. I admit it's been a little while. Roughly the same amount of time since last I played a melee sorc. The sorc I play is more or less hybrid and with a bow.

Do you think magsorc with staff and hybrid sorc with bow are totally different animals? I do not.

And for that matter, why can't you play magsorc with melee weapons?

But most importantly, what does stam -v- mag OR ranged -v- melee have to do with the fact that sorcerers don't have access to major breach?

Of the non-class options for major breach that I can think of... Caltrops, Ele Sus, and the psijic spammable... All 3 can be used at range, and the very most currently overperforming one requires a Destro to use.

So again... Why on earth would STAFF sorcs need it more than any other sorc? Clearly not the case.

SandandStars

In my thinking/experience, melee skills (on a sorc) are more effective & forgiving to use in pvp conditions than staff skills. Sure, part of this is based on the rationale that ranged skills should not do as much damage (unless its merciless resolve or radiant oppression, for some reason…), but the chief challenge is that not only are skills available to a staff sorc weaker, theyre slow and awkward to land (in pvp environment). Without getting into the weeds: haven’t you noticed that a dizzy/rending spamming sorc with hurricane is much more prevalent and powerful in pvp than a ranged sorc with a staff?

Honestly cant speak to bowsorc as I havent played it much, so maybe it’s more similar to staff?

OBJnoob

I don't disagree that melee abilities can and should hit harder than ranged ones I just still don't really see your point.

The give and take on that is already in-- it is the way it is because melee players subject themselves to greater risk. Which is especially true if you're playing a class without a reliable burst heal. So I don't think breach needs to be given to range and not to melee for any class, but especially not to sorc.

Anyway. If you want magsorc to have breach but not stamsorc then congrats cuz you already have it... It's called Ele Sus. Incidentally the melee "stam"sorcs you see all the time doing great are probably using MDW, Dragons Appetite, and Vate Destro. They are also using Ele Sus.

If the discussion is about giving breach to SORC then let it be in a way they can all use it. Cuz everybody isn't playing the crap carry meta, and stamsorc is every bit as garbage as magsorc.

The good melee sorcs I've seen are using curse and frags. You could absolutely play a magsorc with melee weapons if you wanted to. The class kit isn't dependent on range. Or lack of range. So why should breach be?

SandandStars

you make some good points and I mostly agree. having read a number of your posts, I think your knowledge of the game is deeper than mine.

The gist of my original point is that from my perspective, a sorc focusing on ranged skills with a staff (exclusively) is more challenging to play in pvp than a sorc focusing on melee skills with DW/2h. I see a lot more dizzy/exec or rending/whirling sorcs killing in bgs than ranged staff sorcs. Maybe Masters DW/Vatesh + dots is the decisive factor?

It just seems like if you want to play a sorc and not use a melee weapon you’re at a disadvantage.

Pelanora

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

NB’s use to have it but they removed it in favor of minor breach instead. MagDK’s don’t have it either, unless they run the poison breath morph. I think razor caltrops is a good enough skill easily available that it’s not a big burden on stam sorcs to use. Think of all the class passive bonuses they get, not to mention Hurricane and critical surge, which no stamina class has that kind of survivability as the sorc.

All the class passive bonuses? Sorc?

OBJnoob

SandandStars wrote: »

you make some good points and I mostly agree. having read a number of your posts, I think your knowledge of the game is deeper than mine.

The gist of my original point is that from my perspective, a sorc focusing on ranged skills with a staff (exclusively) is more challenging to play in pvp than a sorc focusing on melee skills with DW/2h. I see a lot more dizzy/exec or rending/whirling sorcs killing in bgs than ranged staff sorcs. Maybe Masters DW/Vatesh + dots is the decisive factor?

It just seems like if you want to play a sorc and not use a melee weapon you’re at a disadvantage.

You're kind, LOL. My game knowledge is okay but isn't top tier. I'm on Xbox (as are you if I recall?) So I don't have access to the crazy data some people do. I rely on the forums for most of my "deep" knowledge and the rest just comes from playing for a pretty long time.

With that being said... Perhaps you have noticed in other sorc threads that, at some point, the OPness of procsorcs (normally seen as stam since they use rending slashes,) gets mentioned as a reason not to buff the class. And the players with actual deep knowledge (particularly about sorc,) like Turtle Static and Bushido show up to decry the OPness of the mentioned sets and remind everyone that sorc, as a class, still struggles very hard.

We have no burst heal, no major savagery, and no major breach.

So I'm just here to pass that message really. The same message. And also, on a personal level, I just wouldn't want my bowsorc left out.

I have seen meleesorcs that do very well. Some of them were using the faceroll setup and some of them weren't. I just chalk it up to them being better than me, because when I try it I don't do very well.

But the thing is I've also seen staffsorcs doing VERY well. Do you know the names Kaklubix (prolly spelled it wrong,) or The Muscle? These guys either have Shroud level reticle accuracy, tab-target perfectly and all the time, or 0 ping because-- my guy-- they can delete you from a mile away whenever they want.

The two magsorcs I mentioned can be seen in high mmr BGs. The meleesorcs I mentioned are normally seen dueling. I will mention a guy named KingGreazer though, in case you know him, because he is perhaps the only meleesorc I know that does well in BGs. He doesn't dominate though he just does well.

Anyway... Now I'm just rambling I guess, but I want you to know that I sorta see where you're coming from. I think you're kinda misdiagnosing though. Some of these stand-out performances you're worried about are using the same arena weapon metaproc nonsense that we already know need nerfs. And some of them are just by stand-out players.

Static, Turtle, and Bushido are stand-out players as far as I can tell. And they will tell you that stand-out sorcs still lose to other class stand-outs, regardless of how they fair against lesser opponents.

Me? When I get good and into a character and play it for a week or two I tend to do very well. Sorc used to be one (two actually,) of those characters. In the last year or two... Naw man, I just can't seem to pull it off.

But honestly. My point is single-fold, and all of that writing was just conversation. My only point is that if sorcs need access to breach then certainly staffsorcs need it least. I do understand that bar space is a big issue and maybe for whatever reason you can't use Ele Sus but that's not only a magsorc issue.

Marcus_Justicia

OBJnoob wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

you make some good points and I mostly agree. having read a number of your posts, I think your knowledge of the game is deeper than mine.

The gist of my original point is that from my perspective, a sorc focusing on ranged skills with a staff (exclusively) is more challenging to play in pvp than a sorc focusing on melee skills with DW/2h. I see a lot more dizzy/exec or rending/whirling sorcs killing in bgs than ranged staff sorcs. Maybe Masters DW/Vatesh + dots is the decisive factor?

It just seems like if you want to play a sorc and not use a melee weapon you’re at a disadvantage.

You're kind, LOL. My game knowledge is okay but isn't top tier. I'm on Xbox (as are you if I recall?) So I don't have access to the crazy data some people do. I rely on the forums for most of my "deep" knowledge and the rest just comes from playing for a pretty long time.

With that being said... Perhaps you have noticed in other sorc threads that, at some point, the OPness of procsorcs (normally seen as stam since they use rending slashes,) gets mentioned as a reason not to buff the class. And the players with actual deep knowledge (particularly about sorc,) like Turtle Static and Bushido show up to decry the OPness of the mentioned sets and remind everyone that sorc, as a class, still struggles very hard.

We have no burst heal, no major savagery, and no major breach.

So I'm just here to pass that message really. The same message. And also, on a personal level, I just wouldn't want my bowsorc left out.

I have seen meleesorcs that do very well. Some of them were using the faceroll setup and some of them weren't. I just chalk it up to them being better than me, because when I try it I don't do very well.

But the thing is I've also seen staffsorcs doing VERY well. Do you know the names Kaklubix (prolly spelled it wrong,) or The Muscle? These guys either have Shroud level reticle accuracy, tab-target perfectly and all the time, or 0 ping because-- my guy-- they can delete you from a mile away whenever they want.

The two magsorcs I mentioned can be seen in high mmr BGs. The meleesorcs I mentioned are normally seen dueling. I will mention a guy named KingGreazer though, in case you know him, because he is perhaps the only meleesorc I know that does well in BGs. He doesn't dominate though he just does well.

Anyway... Now I'm just rambling I guess, but I want you to know that I sorta see where you're coming from. I think you're kinda misdiagnosing though. Some of these stand-out performances you're worried about are using the same arena weapon metaproc nonsense that we already know need nerfs. And some of them are just by stand-out players.

Static, Turtle, and Bushido are stand-out players as far as I can tell. And they will tell you that stand-out sorcs still lose to other class stand-outs, regardless of how they fair against lesser opponents.

Me? When I get good and into a character and play it for a week or two I tend to do very well. Sorc used to be one (two actually,) of those characters. In the last year or two... Naw man, I just can't seem to pull it off.

But honestly. My point is single-fold, and all of that writing was just conversation. My only point is that if sorcs need access to breach then certainly staffsorcs need it least. I do understand that bar space is a big issue and maybe for whatever reason you can't use Ele Sus but that's not only a magsorc issue.

+1

MindOfTheSwarm

JerBearESO wrote: »

[Snip]. At this point, what do buffs even mean? They are supposed to be an aspect of diversity but now every build is demanded to have every buff/debuff basicly, at least the considered standard ones at this time but at this rate the less standard ones will creep in and at some point every ability will have every buff/debuff lol.

Just build for it. It IS supposed to work that way

Agree.

[Edited quote]

olsborg

Stamsorc is one of the strongest pvp speccs atm, lets not.

OBJnoob

olsborg wrote: »

Stamsorc is one of the strongest pvp speccs atm, lets not.

Wearing what?

Aznox

OBJnoob wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Stamsorc is one of the strongest pvp speccs atm, lets not.

Wearing what?

Same as everyone else: vate staff, master's dw, maarselok, ...

Ironically, not having built-in major breach makes it so stamsorc gets more value out of vate staff.

It is also a good illustration of why giving all minor/major (de)buffs to all classes contributes to killing build diversity.

OBJnoob

Or maybe it's a good example of how classes NOT having access to buffs/debuffs kills build diversity. Which would make stamsorc getting more use out of Vate Staff very unironic.

Don't get me wrong I see your point about IF every class had every buff they'd be kinda shoehorned into using the same skills. But when they don't have access they're shoehorned into wearing the same gear.

Anyway... Unless you (or anybody else,) likes every build running Master DW Vate Ice Staff and Maarselok, maybe we should balance classes around each other instead of this generic meta that has nothing to do with in-class abilities, damage, healing, buffs, or debuffs.

When I think of the classes that can do well without this arena weapon meta setup I think of DK, Warden, and NB. I want to say Arcanist but I won't because I don't have one and I don't know what buffs they do or don't have. Pretty sure the 3 I named are the 3 classes with the most access to in-class buffs and debuffs though.

How many decent/functional PvP builds can you make with a DK? A Warden? A NB? A stamsorc?

Exactly.

Aznox

I checked again and there's less (viable) major breach in class toolkits than I thought, so i'll give you that it works both way, Warden's Deep Fissure keeps us from seeing even more vate staffs on the field, but there's still room to distribute Major Breach to more classes, as long as they don't all get it.

As to the "should you give it to sorc ?" question, I don't really have an opinion.

Hottytotz

JerBearESO wrote: »

[Snip]. At this point, what do buffs even mean? They are supposed to be an aspect of diversity but now every build is demanded to have every buff/debuff basicly, at least the considered standard ones at this time but at this rate the less standard ones will creep in and at some point every ability will have every buff/debuff lol.

Just build for it. It IS supposed to work that way

[Snip]. While myself and many probably agree with you in principle, over the years almost every class in the game has gotten easy access to every important buff. To the point now where any class that doesn't have access is just behind. You can say things like this but it will just mean sorc is always behind unless you undo the vomiting of buffs other classes have gotten along the way. To just deny sorc on the virtue of preserving identity when identity is already ruined is just screwing over a class for no reason at this point.

[Edited quote and for minor bait]

OBJnoob

Hottytotz wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

[Snip]. At this point, what do buffs even mean? They are supposed to be an aspect of diversity but now every build is demanded to have every buff/debuff basicly, at least the considered standard ones at this time but at this rate the less standard ones will creep in and at some point every ability will have every buff/debuff lol.

Just build for it. It IS supposed to work that way

[Snip]. While myself and many probably agree with you in principle, over the years almost every class in the game has gotten easy access to every important buff. To the point now where any class that doesn't have access is just behind. You can say things like this but it will just mean sorc is always behind unless you undo the vomiting of buffs other classes have gotten along the way. To just deny sorc on the virtue of preserving identity when identity is already ruined is just screwing over a class for no reason at this point.

Yes, exactly.

In principal I do agree. But like half the classes don't go by this principal. You can basically draw a line between the ones that do and the ones that don't. On one side of the line you have competitive PvP classes and on the other side you don't. It really is that clear cut.

[Edited quote]

Turtle_Bot

JerBearESO wrote: »

[Snip]. At this point, what do buffs even mean? They are supposed to be an aspect of diversity but now every build is demanded to have every buff/debuff basicly, at least the considered standard ones at this time but at this rate the less standard ones will creep in and at some point every ability will have every buff/debuff lol.

Just build for it. It IS supposed to work that way

I would agree with this sentiment, if we were talking about rare buffs like berserk, courage, vulnerability, cowardice, toughness, expedition, protection, maim, defile, evasion, force, mending, etc.

We are NOT talking about buffs like those though. We are talking about buffs and debuffs that are supposed to be basic/standard on every build/class.

Basic buffs/debuffs such as:
- Prophecy/Savagery
- Resolve
- Brutality/Sorcery
- Breach

All classes should have easy access to these 4 buffs/debuffs as they are the most basic ways to increase your damage, healing and mitigation. The rarer buffs should be what separates the classes and gives them "identity", not the basic buffs.

Some hypothetical examples of how this could be done:

Sorc could have evasion and expedition since its supposed to be the mobile/evasive hit and run class
NB could have force and cowardice since its supposed to hit hard with guaranteed crits that terrifies its enemies
DK could have berserk and maim since its supposed to be the tanky brawler
Plar could have courage and protection as its supposed to be the team player rallying its allies
Warden could have toughness and mending to go with their nature/cold theme
Necro could have defile and cowardice to go with their undead theme
Arcanist could have protection and vulnerability to go with its deadric theme

These are purely hypothetical examples, but they go to show how all classes should have the 4 basic buffs and be worked to have their own identities that are defined by the rarer buffs the classes get access to, to facilitate their strengths/weaknesses.

[Edited quote]

Pelanora

@Turtle_Bot i wish zos had you on the books as a consultant

StaticWave

If someone says “stamsorc is strong in this meta” and I ask them what the stamsorc is wearing, 10 times out of 10, the answer would either be “master dw, vate ice, maarselok”, or “relequen, way of fire”, or any combination of the above sets

Sorry but that’s not stamsorc being strong, that’s proc sets being strong. You can slot these sets on any class and do similar, if not better.

If you think stamsorc is strong, then please go ahead and wear a non proc build and fight other classes that also wear non proc (by non proc I mean sets that don’t do dmg for you, not the sets in the list ZOS gave). You will see just how wrong you are lol.

I don’t want my class’ identity to revolve around proc sets. It gets stale pretty quick.

SandandStars

Gonna bump the comment that balance should be based on classes and certainly not the trending meta gear; however, I think we’ve seen that class balance is not a strong point…. NB vs Necro for example.

My point: I’ve given up on asking for or expecting balanced classes, gear, reliable pvp game performance, etc.

I’ll just play, occasionally, and mutter under my breath…

Aznox

StaticWave wrote: »

I don’t want my class’ identity to revolve around proc sets. It gets stale pretty quick.

I disagree, having a significant part of your build defined by your sets and not only by your class is what allows me to keep things fresh over the years while sticking to one character.

Also people in this thread argue like sorc is the exeption toward major breach, it's not, warden and DK (anyone seen a necro recently?) are the only classes with a viable major breach in their toolkit.

StaticWave

Aznox wrote: »

I disagree, having a significant part of your build defined by your sets and not only by your class is what allows me to keep things fresh over the years while sticking to one character.

The problem with this statement is sets that define your build are often meta sets that other classes also use. So now what's unique to you is no longer really that unique, and once the sets get nerfed, so are your builds. A DK or a NB can go through 5 sets in 5 different metas and still have the same core mechanics and still do well. A stamsorc can either be top tier in 1 patch, or absolutely bottom of the barrel in another, all because it depends on sets.

That doesn't really sound appealing to me. Imagine playing a class that you can't even control its strength because it's so dependent on sets. What's stopping me from hopping on a better class and wearing the same sets? I could slot the current meta proc sets for stamsorc and do better on another class.

SandandStars

I am going to agree with Static, although I do sympathize with Aznox.

Right now, with one of the primary metas in battlegrounds being the masters dw/vatesh/marselok, the Set functions have determined that the tankiest class will be more effective because all you need to do is get the procs going and then just survive. Seeing lots of Arcanists using this set up and sitting behind their shields, spamming colorless pool.

Without these sets, Arcanist would be much more challenging to play, because its offensive skills are contingent on either cc’ing somebody so you can hit them with Fate Carver, or actually getting good at aiming the skill.

I think at the heart of it there are a lot of long time dedicated players in the PVP community who would really like for skill to be a bigger part of the equation than proc gear.

Unfortunately, it is a business, and they need to introduce new items that become essential for being competitive. I just wish they could do this in such a way that required more skill than passive proc sets do.

i’ve been working on an arcanist build using stat sets, and so far I get beat up pretty bad. But it’s a lot more fun and challenging. I also don’t use colorless pool, because beaming somebody who’s frozen just feels pathetic.

MindOfTheSwarm

Aznox wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I don’t want my class’ identity to revolve around proc sets. It gets stale pretty quick.

I disagree, having a significant part of your build defined by your sets and not only by your class is what allows me to keep things fresh over the years while sticking to one character.

Also people in this thread argue like sorc is the exeption toward major breach, it's not, warden and DK (anyone seen a necro recently?) are the only classes with a viable major breach in their toolkit.

I think it’s silly that Shalks get Major Breach. It should be on Winter’s Revenge. In my opinion.