Skippers, runners, etc. AKA dungeon sprinting

Drammanoth

I know little can be done to prevent sprinters from finishing the dungeon where the rest of the group is half way.

So maybe, instead of the above, could you make the time after group disbandment last 180 sec - to have the time to collect all the loot from chest, and perhaps return to be able to collect the loot from the boss that was killed way before us?

And no, don't tell me "choose a group you will like" because this is not a solution. I too would like to do the do the dungeon relatively fast, BUT not to the point of ignoring others.

Sarannah

Well, ZOS does need to fix this issue fast.

In another thread I posted the suggestion to have a solo + three companion queue that grants transmutes as well, this way the rushers/fake roles can rush with their companions instead of negatively impacting many other players. To them it doesn't matter who is in there with them anyways.

Taken from the other thread:

To me this idea seems like a win-win for every player type:
-Those who want to fake roles/speedrun(who basically run solo), can now run solo + three companions.
-Those who want to avoid the speedrunners/fake role players, can now run solo + three companions.
-Those who are no longer using the dungeon finder at all, can start doing so again with solo + three companions.
-Those who want to run storymode, can now run solo + three companions at their own pace.
-Those who want to play dungeons with other players, can still queue up to meet other players.
-Those who want to learn how the game works/new players, can now queue up both with other players and solo + three companions.
-Those who just want quick transmutes, can now run solo + three companions.
-Those who don't want to wait in queue, can now run solo + three companions.
-Those who want to farm a specific item/lead/something, can now easier do so with solo + three companions.

There does not seem to be any downside to me. And like I said above, those who still want to run dungeons with other players, still can and will do so. Solo + three companions would mostly take those who don't really want to queue with other players, out of the dungeonfinder.

Edit: To point out the other side's arguments: some player(s) disagreed with me. As they feel a solo + companion queue would leave the regular dungeon queue with too few players still queueing up.

prof-dracko

I think it'd slow people down a lot more if all (non secret) bosses were required to qualify for rewards. Go ahead, FG1 skippers, swim past those two mini-bosses. See where it gets you.

SlippyCheeze

prof-dracko wrote: »

I think it'd slow people down a lot more if all (non secret) bosses were required to qualify for rewards. Go ahead, FG1 skippers, swim past those two mini-bosses. See where it gets you.

to quote another thread, "ZOS, I would pay 30,000 crowns for this!!!!!!!111!1!1!"

alternatively, simply remove the transmute stone reward from the normal dungeon queue, and significantly reduce the number of people who are there to get through fast, and consider the other players nothing but an annoyance they have to put up with to get the transmutes.

wouldn't solve "I'm levelling a character, which is why I queued as tank despite having no taunt, and no intention of tanking, because it was faster to get in", but it would solve a lot of the problem by removing the motivation for high end characters to run normal mode dungeons.

move the undaunted keys up and you do even better.

MidniteOwl1913

Sarannah wrote: »

Well, ZOS does need to fix this issue fast.

In another thread I posted the suggestion to have a solo + three companion queue that grants transmutes as well, this way the rushers/fake roles can rush with their companions instead of negatively impacting many other players. To them it doesn't matter who is in there with them anyways.

Taken from the other thread:

To me this idea seems like a win-win for every player type:
-Those who want to fake roles/speedrun(who basically run solo), can now run solo + three companions.
-Those who want to avoid the speedrunners/fake role players, can now run solo + three companions.
-Those who are no longer using the dungeon finder at all, can start doing so again with solo + three companions.
-Those who want to run storymode, can now run solo + three companions at their own pace.
-Those who want to play dungeons with other players, can still queue up to meet other players.
-Those who want to learn how the game works/new players, can now queue up both with other players and solo + three companions.
-Those who just want quick transmutes, can now run solo + three companions.
-Those who don't want to wait in queue, can now run solo + three companions.
-Those who want to farm a specific item/lead/something, can now easier do so with solo + three companions.

There does not seem to be any downside to me. And like I said above, those who still want to run dungeons with other players, still can and will do so. Solo + three companions would mostly take those who don't really want to queue with other players, out of the dungeonfinder.

Edit: To point out the other side's arguments: some player(s) disagreed with me. As they feel a solo + companion queue would leave the regular dungeon queue with too few players still queueing up.

On the other hand players who would be happy to solo with just a companion probably aren't adding much to the 4 person dungeon experience anyway. I would rather wait longer for players who want to enjoy the content not just sprint to get the transmute crystals.

MidniteOwl1913

prof-dracko wrote: »

I think it'd slow people down a lot more if all (non secret) bosses were required to qualify for rewards. Go ahead, FG1 skippers, swim past those two mini-bosses. See where it gets you.

That sounds like a pretty good idea. Better than "joining encounter" that drags the rest of the party from wherever and whatever they were doing to the sprinter...

Roztlin45

The answer is simple ,require all parts of the dungeon to be killed before a completion award is granted. Running ahead will get you a zero. If you want to skip make a group and run how you like , zos could even make a random normal for fakes.and speed runners.

AlterBlika

Sarannah wrote: »

Well, ZOS does need to fix this issue fast.

In another thread I posted the suggestion to have a solo + three companion queue that grants transmutes as well, this way the rushers/fake roles can rush with their companions instead of negatively impacting many other players. To them it doesn't matter who is in there with them anyways.

I guess the companion system just doesn't have an option to increase the limit of companions, because it wasn't meant this way. This would require a rework. Instead they can just allow us to go pugging with incomplete groups, solo/duo/whatever.

Either way most players would still go pugging with randoms because it's faster when you have 4 dds rather than 1.

AlterBlika

prof-dracko wrote: »

I think it'd slow people down a lot more if all (non secret) bosses were required to qualify for rewards. Go ahead, FG1 skippers, swim past those two mini-bosses. See where it gets you.

Skipping is no problem. People skip and rush because they don't want to "enjoy" (there's no joy after doing it hundreds of times) the content. Making content worse for players is not a solution.

Drammanoth

AlterBlika wrote: »

Skipping is no problem. People skip and rush because they don't want to "enjoy" (there's no joy after doing it hundreds of times) the content. Making content worse for players is not a solution.

Skipping is a problem when you are X bosses away from the rusher. Just because they could roll-dodge all the mobs and mini-bosses. And you don't get the loot.

My example - we were doing Tempest Island. We were at Yalorasse the Speaker. Suddenly "ACTIVITY COMPLETE" pops up, and one player leaves the group. By the time we reached Stormreeve Neidir, we could not have collected the loot.

AlterBlika

Drammanoth wrote: »

Skipping is a problem when you are X bosses away from the rusher. Just because they could roll-dodge all the mobs and mini-bosses. And you don't get the loot.

My example - we were doing Tempest Island. We were at Yalorasse the Speaker. Suddenly "ACTIVITY COMPLETE" pops up, and one player leaves the group. By the time we reached Stormreeve Neidir, we could not have collected the loot.

Then rush like everyone else?

Drammanoth

AlterBlika wrote: »

Drammanoth wrote: »

Skipping is a problem when you are X bosses away from the rusher. Just because they could roll-dodge all the mobs and mini-bosses. And you don't get the loot.

My example - we were doing Tempest Island. We were at Yalorasse the Speaker. Suddenly "ACTIVITY COMPLETE" pops up, and one player leaves the group. By the time we reached Stormreeve Neidir, we could not have collected the loot.

Then rush like everyone else?

Which is what I do, BUT before you facepalm - I do that because I can (by this I mean: I have buffs, I have pots). I do this because I have the resources and use them when I am forced to use them. Whether new players have this, I don't know.

It does not mean that this is the most player-friendly or group-friendly thing to do.

If you (as in impersonal 'you') want to do dungeons solo, do them solo, or take a companion, INSTEAD of using others.

Vonnegut2506

I don't mind running dungeons quickly, but I have a problem with rushers who actually make the dungeon take longer. Instead of killing trash packs that take 5 seconds, we spend 30 seconds running like molasses because we are in combat the whole way. That's the infuriating part to me. If you want to do the dungeon quickly, then actually make it quicker and dragging trash packs for half the dungeon isn't always the quickest.

Four_Fingers

Kick people that don't "stay on crown", oh wait that's PvP.

Zodiarkslayer

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

I don't mind running dungeons quickly, but I have a problem with rushers who actually make the dungeon take longer. Instead of killing trash packs that take 5 seconds, we spend 30 seconds running like molasses because we are in combat the whole way. That's the infuriating part to me. If you want to do the dungeon quickly, then actually make it quicker and dragging trash packs for half the dungeon isn't always the quickest.

They are like hamsters in wheel. Always running, never moving.

BXR_Lonestar

Drammanoth wrote: »

I know little can be done to prevent sprinters from finishing the dungeon where the rest of the group is half way.

So maybe, instead of the above, could you make the time after group disbandment last 180 sec - to have the time to collect all the loot from chest, and perhaps return to be able to collect the loot from the boss that was killed way before us?

And no, don't tell me "choose a group you will like" because this is not a solution. I too would like to do the do the dungeon relatively fast, BUT not to the point of ignoring others.

I thought this was already fixed so that if everyone leaves the instance, you can still stay in to complete quests/collect loot, ect.?

Drammanoth

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Drammanoth wrote: »

I know little can be done to prevent sprinters from finishing the dungeon (...), BUT not to the point of ignoring others.

I thought this was already fixed so that if everyone leaves the instance, you can still stay in to complete quests/collect loot, ect.?

No. You can tp out of the instance, but you have to remain in the group. And only a handful of thoughtful players will actually even BOTHER to consider this - can't blame them though...

Elsonso

The main argument that I have is related to new players. They don't have three companions. They may not even have one companion that is worth talking about. They can barely survive in any dungeon.

The three companions idea, which is nice for established players, isn't going to prevent a new player from coming across the ones that queue for dungeons because they don't use companions.

As a result, they get behind. They don't know about the shortcut because no one tells them. They try to solo mobs that are well above their station and die. The dungeon kicks them out before they even get loot.

I see this as a horrible experience. Why would this player want to come back?

I don't know if the answer is to have a level cap where high level players cannot join low level players, or whether the shortcut needs to be blocked, or whether it needs to change so all bosses are required before the final boss appears.

It just needs to change.

Soarora

I don’t mind skips and such but yeah running ahead of people to the point of soloing the dungeon is a problem. Here’s my proposal: doors only open when n-1 are in front of them (so 3/4 people in a full group in case 1 persons doing inventory management or had to go afk).

El_Borracho

Infinite Archive: "Can we please have a save point so we don't have to constantly go through Arcs 1 & 2 every time?"

Dungeons: "Make people kill every boss, every time, in the games oldest group dungeon."

ClowdyAllDay

sadly new players cant often be bothered to vote to kick either. they are the one that benefit most by it and when you initiate a vote it's to help them. Lemmings just run headlong into the skipping for some reason...

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Soarora wrote: »

I don’t mind skips and such but yeah running ahead of people to the point of soloing the dungeon is a problem. Here’s my proposal: doors only open when n-1 are in front of them (so 3/4 people in a full group in case 1 persons doing inventory management or had to go afk).

I like this plan, but what about the dungeons with no doors (Fungal Grotto I has IIRC a grand total of one door, with the most-skipped bosses being behind it)? …maybe the bosses are invincible until at least part of the group catches up?

Braffin

I take it, we are talking about the random normal queue once again, as the solutions already at hand (play in a premade or use the newly added group finder, as everyone else looking for a specific experience does) doesn't seem to be effective. Besides that it's already more than possible to solo most normal dungeons, it's just not possible to queue for the additional rewards.


Well, what definitely won't work is:
1) Changing the rules of the dungeons itself, thus affecting all players (including those in premade groups). Most people running dungeons regularily have done so countless times and won't get the same experience out of a "full story run" as newer players, but a very boring and alienating one. Those players would most likely stop dungeoneering entirely, which would probably be a killing blow for this content.
2) Arbitrary enforcing roles in queues, without providing content, where this roles are actually needed, will lead to the very same results.
3) Allowing players to run solo + 3 companions would simply empty the queues, because players tend to choose the path of least resistance, especially for repetitive content (which going after queue-rewards for dungeons is). Nobody would use the queue anymore to group up with other players, because nobody likes to wait. This would be fatal, especially for newer players as well as those not owning the respective dlcs for companion access, as this players were practically locked out of this content.

Things, that would work to mitigate the issues at hand:
1) Increased difficulty for normal mode dungeons to encourage meaningful grouping. If cooperation is the fastest way to successfully finish the dungeon, people will cooperate. This could be coupled with the implementation of a "solo/story mode", which is here for the story experience, but wouldn't reward the players with transmutes and other group-related shinies.
2) Adjustments to the rewards structure: Currently rnds earn the participants the very same amount of experience and transmutes as rvds. This leads to a situation, where are lot of players eligible for vet content once again choose the path of least resistance and cheese through normal dungeons, while destroying the enjoyment for people, which stick with normal mode for a reason not connected to easy rewards.
3) Adjust rewards for queueing to be account-bound instead of character-bound. This would lessen the pressure some players feel to run rnd with every toon they possess.

Specifically regarding OPs request: I think that's a good idea, as it would surely help a lot of players, which are annoyed with the current system while harming nobody else.

prof-dracko

I can't control others, but when I'm in a random group and we get to the end of a dungeon I always ask if anyone needs to turn in a quest or just wants to explore a bit before I disband. No harm to me staying grouped for a while if it lets someone else have a poke around after the rushers are gone.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

prof-dracko wrote: »

I can't control others, but when I'm in a random group and we get to the end of a dungeon I always ask if anyone needs to turn in a quest or just wants to explore a bit before I disband. No harm to me staying grouped for a while if it lets someone else have a poke around after the rushers are gone.

I’ve done this too, and then I found out you can leave the instance without leaving the group, so now I do that. Most of the time by the time the load screen clears I’m alone anyway, but if not I can go fix my gear, browse a trader or whatever while the remainder finish their quest.

Roztlin45

Recently I have had to take very low level ,NEW players ,through dungeons.They can't manage to complete in random normals due to runners. Also New players deserve to experience the story of the dungeon.
Lets Boil it down to this:
If you que for a random normal it implies that you complete the entire dungeon from start to finish in the role you queued as.
If you do not , due to selfish needs , then you defraud others and waste their time. How can you argue with following the set standards? What are the core values here? Deception (scams) are not tolerated so what is the differences? We just call them fake as a euphemism.
This is a blight on the community especially in the eyes of NEW players.
And NO , lagers , AFK , and people just mulling around should also not be tolerated either. But when dealing with a public situation(non custom group) a NON-selfish approach mixed with patience is the best option. ZOS should step in here.

MidniteOwl1913

AlterBlika wrote: »

Drammanoth wrote: »

Skipping is a problem when you are X bosses away from the rusher. Just because they could roll-dodge all the mobs and mini-bosses. And you don't get the loot.

My example - we were doing Tempest Island. We were at Yalorasse the Speaker. Suddenly "ACTIVITY COMPLETE" pops up, and one player leaves the group. By the time we reached Stormreeve Neidir, we could not have collected the loot.

Then rush like everyone else?

I'm the healer, I stay with the party. Those who rush are just using the rest of the party for their ends. I always start a vote to kick but I guess some people are kinder than I am or maybe they just haven't gotten as tired of this rude behavior as I have.

MidniteOwl1913

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

prof-dracko wrote: »

I can't control others, but when I'm in a random group and we get to the end of a dungeon I always ask if anyone needs to turn in a quest or just wants to explore a bit before I disband. No harm to me staying grouped for a while if it lets someone else have a poke around after the rushers are gone.

I’ve done this too, and then I found out you can leave the instance without leaving the group, so now I do that. Most of the time by the time the load screen clears I’m alone anyway, but if not I can go fix my gear, browse a trader or whatever while the remainder finish their quest.

Yeah I usually just stick around. Sometimes I go hunting to see if I can find a chest sometimes I just look around. I do like dungeons.

Drammanoth

Roztlin45 wrote: »

Recently I have had to take very low level ,NEW players ,through dungeons.They can't manage to complete in random normals due to runners. Also New players deserve to experience the story of the dungeon.
Lets Boil it down to this:
If you que for a random normal it implies that you complete the entire dungeon from start to finish in the role you queued as.
If you do not , due to selfish needs , then you defraud others and waste their time. How can you argue with following the set standards? What are the core values here? Deception (scams) are not tolerated so what is the differences? We just call them fake as a euphemism.
This is a blight on the community especially in the eyes of NEW players.
And NO , lagers , AFK , and people just mulling around should also not be tolerated either. But when dealing with a public situation(non custom group) a NON-selfish approach mixed with patience is the best option. ZOS should step in here.

made bold by Drammanoth
New players, to whom ZOS caters, might I add. No, no shaming. It is what it is and well... I've come to accept this. We all have to if we want to play.

Now, how about this... IRL, why do people go to some places over and over and over again? "I always go to Croatia / Spain / Italy for summer holidays because it's beautiful there" even though the person has been there XYZ times.

Do people really queue for instances because they are BORED? Sometimes I feel they do .

@ZOS_Kevin , have there been any talks in regards to the issue of rushers? I do realise you guys have TONS more, but still...

Soarora

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I don’t mind skips and such but yeah running ahead of people to the point of soloing the dungeon is a problem. Here’s my proposal: doors only open when n-1 are in front of them (so 3/4 people in a full group in case 1 persons doing inventory management or had to go afk).

I like this plan, but what about the dungeons with no doors (Fungal Grotto I has IIRC a grand total of one door, with the most-skipped bosses being behind it)? …maybe the bosses are invincible until at least part of the group catches up?

I think the fungal grotto skip is completely fine but yeah maybe Kra’gh doesn’t break out of the wall until n-1 people are there. Would also deal with the skipping I guess if 2 people don’t jump off the waterfall. But I think if anything the achievements should be adjusted to make those bosses optional, like in wayrest sewers and crypt of hearts(?).

Can also add doors like the last door before Maarselok in LoM or before bosses in SWR. It’s just a magic barrier.

It seems like there is a door that functions like this already too. It might be spindleclutch 1, the exit from the room the red ghost is in when its spindle 2.

Braffin

Roztlin45 wrote: »

Recently I have had to take very low level ,NEW players ,through dungeons.They can't manage to complete in random normals due to runners. Also New players deserve to experience the story of the dungeon.
Lets Boil it down to this:
If you que for a random normal it implies that you complete the entire dungeon from start to finish in the role you queued as.
If you do not , due to selfish needs , then you defraud others and waste their time. How can you argue with following the set standards? What are the core values here? Deception (scams) are not tolerated so what is the differences? We just call them fake as a euphemism.
This is a blight on the community especially in the eyes of NEW players.
And NO , lagers , AFK , and people just mulling around should also not be tolerated either. But when dealing with a public situation(non custom group) a NON-selfish approach mixed with patience is the best option. ZOS should step in here.

Well, that's simply not true.

If things were as you say, it would already be necessary to kill every single mob in a dungeon and you wouldn't have to demand it. But it's not like that and never has been.

Besides that the random queues aren't only meant for players looking for mates to group up, but can (and are indeed) be used by premade groups. There is no need to punish those players, which don't harm anyone by playing this game as intended (like mmos are played, with friends).

Additionally it's highly unlikely, that the primary intention of the random dungeon queue is with helping newer players to finish the quest of a specific dungeon. There are guilds for this and also the newly implemented group finder.

Random is random. Period. Either take what you get or use one of the various ways to adjust the dungeon experience to your personal liking.

Forcing the whole playerbase into a specific playstyle to cater to the interests of a minority of high-CP-slow-pacers won't happen tho. And that's a good thing.