Meta is Superb. Don’t Change a Thing.

Miracle19

StaticWave wrote: »

Hmm you're right the meta is superb and we have access to competitive build choices. namely:

1) Master DW, Vate Ice, Maarselok
2) Asylum Staff, Vate Ice, Relequen
3) Rallying Cry, Essence Thief

To be fair, the dueling scene has always been like this. A few cheesy setups that are BIS by a mile. In group play , half of those are worthless and the other half are decent at best.

Arcanasx

"Dedicated damage sets do more overall damage than sets that aren't dedicated damage sets." Yes, very shocking.

StaticWave

VinnyGambini wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

The Tank meta is gone

Are we playing the same game?

Maybe you are not.

To the topic - go bergama, and check best pvpers bulids. Or ask a 25-0 guy from bgs for build. I guarantee, that best players use 100% dmg sets. On top mmr, nobody uses pariah, maras balm, or lets say 5 heavy.

They use full dmg builds because it's incredibly easy to manipulate defensive stats while wearing full damage sets. For example, I can run an almost full damage build like Rallying Cry/Essence Thief/Balorgh/Markyn and still achieve these defensive stats:





That's a 39k HP build with 30k resistances back bar and almost 3.5k crit resist, while also having 6.5k+ weapon damage, 99% crit damage, 35% crit chance, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, all while in NO CP and on a stamsorc whose defense is much weaker than a class like Warden/NB/Arcanist/DK.

Going full damage isn't really worth it because you're a lot squishier. It may work in 1v1s but in Cyrodiil and group fights you're asking to die. At the same time, you also need to run enough damage to kill people. Good players know that so they manipulate stats to get as much defense as possible while also having the best amount of damage for a given situation.

VinnyGambini

StaticWave wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

The Tank meta is gone

Are we playing the same game?

Maybe you are not.

To the topic - go bergama, and check best pvpers bulids. Or ask a 25-0 guy from bgs for build. I guarantee, that best players use 100% dmg sets. On top mmr, nobody uses pariah, maras balm, or lets say 5 heavy.

They use full dmg builds because it's incredibly easy to manipulate defensive stats while wearing full damage sets. For example, I can run an almost full damage build like Rallying Cry/Essence Thief/Balorgh/Markyn and still achieve these defensive stats:





That's a 39k HP build with 30k resistances back bar and almost 3.5k crit resist, while also having 6.5k+ weapon damage, 99% crit damage, 35% crit chance, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, all while in NO CP and on a stamsorc whose defense is much weaker than a class like Warden/NB/Arcanist/DK.

Going full damage isn't really worth it because you're a lot squishier. It may work in 1v1s but in Cyrodiil and group fights you're asking to die. At the same time, you also need to run enough damage to kill people. Good players know that so they manipulate stats to get as much defense as possible while also having the best amount of damage for a given situation.

Why do you think 27k resist is tanky? Why do you take 30k backbar? What if you get stunned frontbar? Major+minor breach, some penetration, and effectively you are like 10k (or even lower). I'm 100% sure that good nb can hit 20k crits to this build.

By tanky build I assume like 35k resist FRONTBAR, and some extra healing, something like rallying cry + maras balm + gaze of sithis or engine guardian + markyn, and maybe nord - this is tanky build.

Also what you posted is balanced build, nowhere near full dmg. Full dmg would be ssc instead of markyn, and much less health. Full dmg build offers you like 25% more dmg.

Galeriano

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

The Tank meta is gone

Are we playing the same game?

Maybe you are not.

To the topic - go bergama, and check best pvpers bulids. Or ask a 25-0 guy from bgs for build. I guarantee, that best players use 100% dmg sets. On top mmr, nobody uses pariah, maras balm, or lets say 5 heavy.

Yeah and then go to Cyro or IC to see lots of people running with 40k+ HP.

Best PvPers in bergama will rarely bring their setups into Cyro or BGs because these setups are often tailored specifically for duels.

In BGs numbers of people running with tanky proc based setups is increasing with every day.

There are also sets like rallying cry which adds noticable amount of defense. Plenty of people is also using mythics that boost their defense like gaze of sithis, death dealers fete, lefthander aegis etc. There are also sets like wretched vitality which boost sustain allowing for more survivability. Procs in general create easier dmg output so people can build more defense in other ways. Fact that top dueles in bergaga and some people with nice BG scores are not running tanky setups doesn't mean we don't have a tanky meta.

And this is the real root cause. Proc sets. You can go no cp and you will see that there is no tanky meta there. Proc sets are generally cancer, and ruins PvP.

But as we can all see, no proc campaigns are almost empty - that means ppl are not interested in balanced PvP - they are interested in cheese builds to destroy opponents.

Sad but true.

Oh but there is tanky meta in no CP. No CP can be as cheesy as CP with the difference that it's poor class balance that produces the main sources of cheese there rather than sets and CPs. No CP is far from being balanced.

Alchimiste1

The original post maker is clearly a very wise person.

Please continue on not making a single meaningful change for the next 4 months just as you have continued to do for the entire year zos. It would be a real shame if any future changes made necro usable next patch.

StaticWave

VinnyGambini wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

The Tank meta is gone

Are we playing the same game?

Maybe you are not.

To the topic - go bergama, and check best pvpers bulids. Or ask a 25-0 guy from bgs for build. I guarantee, that best players use 100% dmg sets. On top mmr, nobody uses pariah, maras balm, or lets say 5 heavy.

They use full dmg builds because it's incredibly easy to manipulate defensive stats while wearing full damage sets. For example, I can run an almost full damage build like Rallying Cry/Essence Thief/Balorgh/Markyn and still achieve these defensive stats:





That's a 39k HP build with 30k resistances back bar and almost 3.5k crit resist, while also having 6.5k+ weapon damage, 99% crit damage, 35% crit chance, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, all while in NO CP and on a stamsorc whose defense is much weaker than a class like Warden/NB/Arcanist/DK.

Going full damage isn't really worth it because you're a lot squishier. It may work in 1v1s but in Cyrodiil and group fights you're asking to die. At the same time, you also need to run enough damage to kill people. Good players know that so they manipulate stats to get as much defense as possible while also having the best amount of damage for a given situation.

Why do you think 27k resist is tanky? Why do you take 30k backbar? What if you get stunned frontbar? Major+minor breach, some penetration, and effectively you are like 10k (or even lower). I'm 100% sure that good nb can hit 20k crits to this build.

By tanky build I assume like 35k resist FRONTBAR, and some extra healing, something like rallying cry + maras balm + gaze of sithis or engine guardian + markyn, and maybe nord - this is tanky build.

Also what you posted is balanced build, nowhere near full dmg. Full dmg would be ssc instead of markyn, and much less health. Full dmg build offers you like 25% more dmg.

Nah, the most I've taken was a 17k bow crit with Incap debuff. Average around 12k bow procs from good NBs, and I've fought many good NBs on PC NA.

You don't really need to be that tanky though. You can perform much better if you specced into speed. Speed is always the best form of damage mitigation. 35k armor is just overkill unless you're dueling.

In a full damage build, you can only allocate so much of your stats and have to make sacrifices. 27k armor is enough for general purposes. When stacked with Undeath, decent crit resist, Major + Minor Expedition, and good heals, you can be really tanky without losing damage.

VinnyGambini

StaticWave wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

The Tank meta is gone

Are we playing the same game?

Maybe you are not.

To the topic - go bergama, and check best pvpers bulids. Or ask a 25-0 guy from bgs for build. I guarantee, that best players use 100% dmg sets. On top mmr, nobody uses pariah, maras balm, or lets say 5 heavy.

They use full dmg builds because it's incredibly easy to manipulate defensive stats while wearing full damage sets. For example, I can run an almost full damage build like Rallying Cry/Essence Thief/Balorgh/Markyn and still achieve these defensive stats:





That's a 39k HP build with 30k resistances back bar and almost 3.5k crit resist, while also having 6.5k+ weapon damage, 99% crit damage, 35% crit chance, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, all while in NO CP and on a stamsorc whose defense is much weaker than a class like Warden/NB/Arcanist/DK.

Going full damage isn't really worth it because you're a lot squishier. It may work in 1v1s but in Cyrodiil and group fights you're asking to die. At the same time, you also need to run enough damage to kill people. Good players know that so they manipulate stats to get as much defense as possible while also having the best amount of damage for a given situation.

Why do you think 27k resist is tanky? Why do you take 30k backbar? What if you get stunned frontbar? Major+minor breach, some penetration, and effectively you are like 10k (or even lower). I'm 100% sure that good nb can hit 20k crits to this build.

By tanky build I assume like 35k resist FRONTBAR, and some extra healing, something like rallying cry + maras balm + gaze of sithis or engine guardian + markyn, and maybe nord - this is tanky build.

Also what you posted is balanced build, nowhere near full dmg. Full dmg would be ssc instead of markyn, and much less health. Full dmg build offers you like 25% more dmg.

Nah, the most I've taken was a 17k bow crit with Incap debuff. Average around 12k bow procs from good NBs, and I've fought many good NBs on PC NA.

You don't really need to be that tanky though. You can perform much better if you specced into speed. Speed is always the best form of damage mitigation. 35k armor is just overkill unless you're dueling.

In a full damage build, you can only allocate so much of your stats and have to make sacrifices. 27k armor is enough for general purposes. When stacked with Undeath, decent crit resist, Major + Minor Expedition, and good heals, you can be really tanky without losing damage.

So you proved my point.

Skoomah

I’ve updated and played a Dragonknight, Warden, Arcanist, Werewolf recently. They are all set up differently in terms of sets, skills, playstyle, role. They’re all competitive and can contribute to a winning fight in different ways. They can slice through tanky targets and mitigate damage effectively whenever the situation calls for it.

Dragonknight - Melee Damage Over Time style
Arcanist - Range AOE Beamer style
Warden - Maximum Support Healer Medic style
Werewolf - Beastmode Melee Burst Damage style

Depending on the situation, each character might be better in a solo, small group, or large group setting. And I have variants builds for each class depending on the situation.

Build diversity is strong and I have a blast playing all my characters.

And in terms of the other classes I don't play. I've fought against the best Templars, Sorcerers, Nightblades, and Necromancers, and they absolutely can still shred. What I see a lot of to be quite honest is a lot of uninspired play and people being too lazy to put in the work to discover what works best for their class. Instead, they just copy and paste the same setup from class to class and think that'll be optimal when it's not.

TechMaybeHic

It's awfully stale. The amount of healing from health based heals or shields for that matter, on some classes, combined with the ability to do damage from procs without too much investment in damage should not be a thing. I'm sure with that in mind, running DK, Arcanist, and Warden feels great

NB and sorc go the other way with mobility and damage, and NB really is over the top, yet if addressed, it really reduces any chace of counter to the high health and heal to full DKs, Arcanist, and Warden; leaving sorc with some burst and run capability but lackluster heals and defense without double bar pets.

Then templar is a sideshow. Have a stupid heal defense in living dark then more one trick pony of comboing into the execute, yet you're not going to have a lot of luck with that (nor sorc combos for that matter) actually pushing a breach or fighting on a flag, in a large fight which really the major pvp modes are about. Not running around a rock, tree, or tower until you can focus 1 player.

And necro abilities just fail mechanically. They're slow or just completely lose their targets. That's why they feel like they need to crutch on mass pulls to land anything

StaticWave

VinnyGambini wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

The Tank meta is gone

Are we playing the same game?

Maybe you are not.

To the topic - go bergama, and check best pvpers bulids. Or ask a 25-0 guy from bgs for build. I guarantee, that best players use 100% dmg sets. On top mmr, nobody uses pariah, maras balm, or lets say 5 heavy.

They use full dmg builds because it's incredibly easy to manipulate defensive stats while wearing full damage sets. For example, I can run an almost full damage build like Rallying Cry/Essence Thief/Balorgh/Markyn and still achieve these defensive stats:





That's a 39k HP build with 30k resistances back bar and almost 3.5k crit resist, while also having 6.5k+ weapon damage, 99% crit damage, 35% crit chance, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, all while in NO CP and on a stamsorc whose defense is much weaker than a class like Warden/NB/Arcanist/DK.

Going full damage isn't really worth it because you're a lot squishier. It may work in 1v1s but in Cyrodiil and group fights you're asking to die. At the same time, you also need to run enough damage to kill people. Good players know that so they manipulate stats to get as much defense as possible while also having the best amount of damage for a given situation.

Why do you think 27k resist is tanky? Why do you take 30k backbar? What if you get stunned frontbar? Major+minor breach, some penetration, and effectively you are like 10k (or even lower). I'm 100% sure that good nb can hit 20k crits to this build.

By tanky build I assume like 35k resist FRONTBAR, and some extra healing, something like rallying cry + maras balm + gaze of sithis or engine guardian + markyn, and maybe nord - this is tanky build.

Also what you posted is balanced build, nowhere near full dmg. Full dmg would be ssc instead of markyn, and much less health. Full dmg build offers you like 25% more dmg.

Nah, the most I've taken was a 17k bow crit with Incap debuff. Average around 12k bow procs from good NBs, and I've fought many good NBs on PC NA.

You don't really need to be that tanky though. You can perform much better if you specced into speed. Speed is always the best form of damage mitigation. 35k armor is just overkill unless you're dueling.

In a full damage build, you can only allocate so much of your stats and have to make sacrifices. 27k armor is enough for general purposes. When stacked with Undeath, decent crit resist, Major + Minor Expedition, and good heals, you can be really tanky without losing damage.

So you proved my point.

Prove what point? That top tier players run full damage? It only works vs players worse than them or unsuspecting players

I still have a decent amount of armor lol. If you go 100% full damage you're asking to be deleted by other good players. I've one shotted several good players in BGs because they think they can go in and ult dump me.

VinnyGambini

StaticWave wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

The Tank meta is gone

Are we playing the same game?

Maybe you are not.

To the topic - go bergama, and check best pvpers bulids. Or ask a 25-0 guy from bgs for build. I guarantee, that best players use 100% dmg sets. On top mmr, nobody uses pariah, maras balm, or lets say 5 heavy.

They use full dmg builds because it's incredibly easy to manipulate defensive stats while wearing full damage sets. For example, I can run an almost full damage build like Rallying Cry/Essence Thief/Balorgh/Markyn and still achieve these defensive stats:





That's a 39k HP build with 30k resistances back bar and almost 3.5k crit resist, while also having 6.5k+ weapon damage, 99% crit damage, 35% crit chance, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, all while in NO CP and on a stamsorc whose defense is much weaker than a class like Warden/NB/Arcanist/DK.

Going full damage isn't really worth it because you're a lot squishier. It may work in 1v1s but in Cyrodiil and group fights you're asking to die. At the same time, you also need to run enough damage to kill people. Good players know that so they manipulate stats to get as much defense as possible while also having the best amount of damage for a given situation.

Why do you think 27k resist is tanky? Why do you take 30k backbar? What if you get stunned frontbar? Major+minor breach, some penetration, and effectively you are like 10k (or even lower). I'm 100% sure that good nb can hit 20k crits to this build.

By tanky build I assume like 35k resist FRONTBAR, and some extra healing, something like rallying cry + maras balm + gaze of sithis or engine guardian + markyn, and maybe nord - this is tanky build.

Also what you posted is balanced build, nowhere near full dmg. Full dmg would be ssc instead of markyn, and much less health. Full dmg build offers you like 25% more dmg.

Nah, the most I've taken was a 17k bow crit with Incap debuff. Average around 12k bow procs from good NBs, and I've fought many good NBs on PC NA.

You don't really need to be that tanky though. You can perform much better if you specced into speed. Speed is always the best form of damage mitigation. 35k armor is just overkill unless you're dueling.

In a full damage build, you can only allocate so much of your stats and have to make sacrifices. 27k armor is enough for general purposes. When stacked with Undeath, decent crit resist, Major + Minor Expedition, and good heals, you can be really tanky without losing damage.

So you proved my point.

Prove what point? That top tier players run full damage? It only works vs players worse than them or unsuspecting players

I still have a decent amount of armor lol. If you go 100% full damage you're asking to be deleted by other good players. I've one shotted several good players in BGs because they think they can go in and ult dump me.

You said 35k armor is OVERKILL - and I stated that top pvpers DO NOT build full tank. So you proved my point. No need to continue our discussion, because we fully agree.

StaticWave

VinnyGambini wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

The Tank meta is gone

Are we playing the same game?

Maybe you are not.

To the topic - go bergama, and check best pvpers bulids. Or ask a 25-0 guy from bgs for build. I guarantee, that best players use 100% dmg sets. On top mmr, nobody uses pariah, maras balm, or lets say 5 heavy.

They use full dmg builds because it's incredibly easy to manipulate defensive stats while wearing full damage sets. For example, I can run an almost full damage build like Rallying Cry/Essence Thief/Balorgh/Markyn and still achieve these defensive stats:





That's a 39k HP build with 30k resistances back bar and almost 3.5k crit resist, while also having 6.5k+ weapon damage, 99% crit damage, 35% crit chance, 10% dmg done from Essence Thief, all while in NO CP and on a stamsorc whose defense is much weaker than a class like Warden/NB/Arcanist/DK.

Going full damage isn't really worth it because you're a lot squishier. It may work in 1v1s but in Cyrodiil and group fights you're asking to die. At the same time, you also need to run enough damage to kill people. Good players know that so they manipulate stats to get as much defense as possible while also having the best amount of damage for a given situation.

Why do you think 27k resist is tanky? Why do you take 30k backbar? What if you get stunned frontbar? Major+minor breach, some penetration, and effectively you are like 10k (or even lower). I'm 100% sure that good nb can hit 20k crits to this build.

By tanky build I assume like 35k resist FRONTBAR, and some extra healing, something like rallying cry + maras balm + gaze of sithis or engine guardian + markyn, and maybe nord - this is tanky build.

Also what you posted is balanced build, nowhere near full dmg. Full dmg would be ssc instead of markyn, and much less health. Full dmg build offers you like 25% more dmg.

Nah, the most I've taken was a 17k bow crit with Incap debuff. Average around 12k bow procs from good NBs, and I've fought many good NBs on PC NA.

You don't really need to be that tanky though. You can perform much better if you specced into speed. Speed is always the best form of damage mitigation. 35k armor is just overkill unless you're dueling.

In a full damage build, you can only allocate so much of your stats and have to make sacrifices. 27k armor is enough for general purposes. When stacked with Undeath, decent crit resist, Major + Minor Expedition, and good heals, you can be really tanky without losing damage.

So you proved my point.

Prove what point? That top tier players run full damage? It only works vs players worse than them or unsuspecting players

I still have a decent amount of armor lol. If you go 100% full damage you're asking to be deleted by other good players. I've one shotted several good players in BGs because they think they can go in and ult dump me.

You said 35k armor is OVERKILL - and I stated that top pvpers DO NOT build full tank. So you proved my point. No need to continue our discussion, because we fully agree.

Not entirely. From my perspective, anything over 28k armor is already considered tanky. That's what you would get if you were to run 5-6 heavy armor pieces. 30-31k if using reinforced and 33k if using Markyn.

My definition of a full damage build is anything less than 25k armor. I think that's where we disagree.

jerj6925

Honestly developers could eliminate so much of their headaches with game balancing pvp if they got rid of proc's. Once done either reverse a majority of the nerfs to templar class or beat down the others to match Templar. I would rather see Templar go back to past performances.

StarOfElyon

Skoomah wrote: »

The game is fairly balanced right now. Please don’t change a thing ZOS. DK, Warden, Sorc, NB, Arcanist, Templar, and Necros all have access to build choices that are competitive. The Tank meta is gone and time to kill for 95% of encounters is reasonable. There a certainly edge cases that could be considered imbalanced but that’s usually a small select of players. The edge cases don’t take away from the overall good state of balance right now.

Take away masters dual wield and vate staff, then get back to me.

StarOfElyon

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

The Tank meta is gone

Are we playing the same game?

Maybe you are not.

To the topic - go bergama, and check best pvpers bulids. Or ask a 25-0 guy from bgs for build. I guarantee, that best players use 100% dmg sets. On top mmr, nobody uses pariah, maras balm, or lets say 5 heavy.

Yeah and then go to Cyro or IC to see lots of people running with 40k+ HP.

Best PvPers in bergama will rarely bring their setups into Cyro or BGs because these setups are often tailored specifically for duels.

In BGs numbers of people running with tanky proc based setups is increasing with every day.

There are also sets like rallying cry which adds noticable amount of defense. Plenty of people is also using mythics that boost their defense like gaze of sithis, death dealers fete, lefthander aegis etc. There are also sets like wretched vitality which boost sustain allowing for more survivability. Procs in general create easier dmg output so people can build more defense in other ways. Fact that top dueles in bergaga and some people with nice BG scores are not running tanky setups doesn't mean we don't have a tanky meta.

And this is the real root cause. Proc sets. You can go no cp and you will see that there is no tanky meta there. Proc sets are generally cancer, and ruins PvP.

But as we can all see, no proc campaigns are almost empty - that means ppl are not interested in balanced PvP - they are interested in cheese builds to destroy opponents.

Sad but true.

I don't use proc sets that heal or do damage but the reason I avoid no cp is that I can't be sure all my sets work.

Turtle_Bot

StarOfElyon wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

The Tank meta is gone

Are we playing the same game?

Maybe you are not.

To the topic - go bergama, and check best pvpers bulids. Or ask a 25-0 guy from bgs for build. I guarantee, that best players use 100% dmg sets. On top mmr, nobody uses pariah, maras balm, or lets say 5 heavy.

Yeah and then go to Cyro or IC to see lots of people running with 40k+ HP.

Best PvPers in bergama will rarely bring their setups into Cyro or BGs because these setups are often tailored specifically for duels.

In BGs numbers of people running with tanky proc based setups is increasing with every day.

There are also sets like rallying cry which adds noticable amount of defense. Plenty of people is also using mythics that boost their defense like gaze of sithis, death dealers fete, lefthander aegis etc. There are also sets like wretched vitality which boost sustain allowing for more survivability. Procs in general create easier dmg output so people can build more defense in other ways. Fact that top dueles in bergaga and some people with nice BG scores are not running tanky setups doesn't mean we don't have a tanky meta.

And this is the real root cause. Proc sets. You can go no cp and you will see that there is no tanky meta there. Proc sets are generally cancer, and ruins PvP.

But as we can all see, no proc campaigns are almost empty - that means ppl are not interested in balanced PvP - they are interested in cheese builds to destroy opponents.

Sad but true.

I don't use proc sets that heal or do damage but the reason I avoid no cp is that I can't be sure all my sets work.

Pretty much this, if ZOS would actually list all the sets that definitely work (or don't work) in that campaign, more people would play it (or at least be more willing to try it) since they would know what they could use.

At the moment all we have is an outdated list that wasn't even entirely accurate when it was made.

Urzigurumash

Artim_X wrote: »

In my honest opinion, the Murkmire patch was the last time PvP was "balanced."

Xbox NA BGs were usually 10+ PetSorcs in these days, even after their nerfs at this patch.

Galeriano

jerj6925 wrote: »

Honestly developers could eliminate so much of their headaches with game balancing pvp if they got rid of proc's. Once done either reverse a majority of the nerfs to templar class or beat down the others to match Templar. I would rather see Templar go back to past performances.

Well no CP Cyrodill doesnl;t have procs and balance there is still far from being perfect.

Galeriano

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

The Tank meta is gone

Are we playing the same game?

Maybe you are not.

To the topic - go bergama, and check best pvpers bulids. Or ask a 25-0 guy from bgs for build. I guarantee, that best players use 100% dmg sets. On top mmr, nobody uses pariah, maras balm, or lets say 5 heavy.

Yeah and then go to Cyro or IC to see lots of people running with 40k+ HP.

Best PvPers in bergama will rarely bring their setups into Cyro or BGs because these setups are often tailored specifically for duels.

In BGs numbers of people running with tanky proc based setups is increasing with every day.

There are also sets like rallying cry which adds noticable amount of defense. Plenty of people is also using mythics that boost their defense like gaze of sithis, death dealers fete, lefthander aegis etc. There are also sets like wretched vitality which boost sustain allowing for more survivability. Procs in general create easier dmg output so people can build more defense in other ways. Fact that top dueles in bergaga and some people with nice BG scores are not running tanky setups doesn't mean we don't have a tanky meta.

And this is the real root cause. Proc sets. You can go no cp and you will see that there is no tanky meta there. Proc sets are generally cancer, and ruins PvP.

But as we can all see, no proc campaigns are almost empty - that means ppl are not interested in balanced PvP - they are interested in cheese builds to destroy opponents.

Sad but true.

I don't use proc sets that heal or do damage but the reason I avoid no cp is that I can't be sure all my sets work.

Pretty much this, if ZOS would actually list all the sets that definitely work (or don't work) in that campaign, more people would play it (or at least be more willing to try it) since they would know what they could use.

At the moment all we have is an outdated list that wasn't even entirely accurate when it was made.

I highly doubt that. People like being supported by sets and CPs and they also don't like to switch gear too often. When I was doing BGs and no CP Cyro it was kinda annoying to switch my gear and skills all the time. No CP campaign is also not the greatest in terms of balance so there really is a little to no point for many people to visit it. I would rather see no CP campaign being changed to the same ruleset as BGs have atm.

Vaqual

jerj6925 wrote: »

Honestly developers could eliminate so much of their headaches with game balancing pvp if they got rid of proc's. Once done either reverse a majority of the nerfs to templar class or beat down the others to match Templar. I would rather see Templar go back to past performances.

Categorically rejecting and demonizing procs is trendy here but it is so short sighted and dull. Killing an enemy in PvP is nothing but a DPS check. Not in terms of sustained damage, but how much damage you can squeeze into a spike of minimal duration, to reduce the enemies reaction time. Your damage is pitted against the enemies HP, mitigations and HPS. It doesn't matter if the damage is coming from a single ability with 10k or an ability with 5k and a proc with 5k (apart from build specific modifiers and interactions). If certain procs have too much of an advantage over other damage sources than that is a problem of balancing the procs real DPS (damage vs duration vs CD penalty vs proc condition). Procs are not inherently evil or lazy. When they are problematic due to trivial/highly reliable proc conditions coupled with overly high DPS/HPS (including buffs and debuffs as indirect sources), then they can be balanced just as much as any ability can be buffed or nerfed.
On the other side, they have a large positive impact: Diversifying the pool of potential damage sources. Classes and abilities do nothing else. Selling you damage and healing packaged in different mathematical proportions with a bit of flavour to go with them.

Spamming dizzy on a WD maxed build is not a single bit more skillful then fighting with an appropriately balanced proc set.

Urzigurumash

I agree @Vaqual , and my default is maxing WD and spamming Dizzy. I made this poll about a year ago:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/622887/conditional-damage-procs-deserve-more-aggressive-scaling