ToT AI is pretty bloody annoying

subarctic

I start by getting rid of 1 coin cards. The new AI just gives itself many good cards usually without eliminating its own 1 coin cards at the beginning of the game. Several times I have had 2–3 prestige points while the AI has around 20. If I play against a novice NPC, the AI then let me catch up, before either speeding ahead to 40 prestige or making silly mistakes, in which case it lets me win.

Today, the AI had 7 agent cards on the table, and it had repeatedly given itself top cards without removing several of its own 1 coin cards, but when it had reached 42 and could easily have won, it instead made silly mistakes, letting me win. My victory was annoying, because it was obvious that the AI let me win, after having “cheated” like hell.

Even more annoying that ToT is now some of the best content in ESO after you have reached 1500 CP. 95% of the game is too easy, boring.

NeuroticPixels

They made ToT AI too “smart”. I kept seeing in patch notes where they “improved” ToT AI and I knew they’d end up going too far.

Elsonso

Hmm.... "improved" == "cheating"??

CGPsaint

ToT isn't worth playing against AI unless you're doing achievements or grinding loot. The AI either outright crushes you or gets crushed by you. There simply isn't any in-between.

SeaGtGruff

CGPsaint wrote: »

ToT isn't worth playing against AI unless you're doing achievements or grinding loot. The AI either outright crushes you or gets crushed by you. There simply isn't any in-between.

I win maybe 90% of the time against the "improved" Expert NPCs, whereas I've seen posts by players who struggle to win even 10% of the time, so I'd say there is definitely some in-between depending on how well you play. The thing is, there don't seem to be many "in-between" players, meaning ones who win about 50% of the time, because once you recognize the preferences of the AI, it's easier to beat the AI, so my feeling is that middle-of-the-road players don't stay in the middle of the road forever.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it's about Tales Of Tribute.

Thank you for your understanding

CGPsaint

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

ToT isn't worth playing against AI unless you're doing achievements or grinding loot. The AI either outright crushes you or gets crushed by you. There simply isn't any in-between.

I win maybe 90% of the time against the "improved" Expert NPCs, whereas I've seen posts by players who struggle to win even 10% of the time, so I'd say there is definitely some in-between depending on how well you play. The thing is, there don't seem to be many "in-between" players, meaning ones who win about 50% of the time, because once you recognize the preferences of the AI, it's easier to beat the AI, so my feeling is that middle-of-the-road players don't stay in the middle of the road forever.

Same here. I can generally beat the Expert NPCs, but the Novice NPCs are just wack. They either push for Patron victory or ignore Patrons entirely. They either manage to get all of the best cards in the first couple of draws and pummel you to death, or they ignore good cards and destroy good cards from their hand and barely scrap together 10 points before losing. I need to play another 50ish ranked matches and get the fragments for the last three achievements, but I honestly can't be bothered to invest 50-100+ hours on something that I just don't enjoy doing.

subarctic

The ToT (novice) AI is like a patient in an asylum that randomly switches between being a genius, a cheater and a village idiot.

It doesn’t feel like a real game when the AI behaves like that.

BahometZ

I miss how it was on launch. Novice was dumb, but that's what a novice is, now novice is as you say, chaotic and painful.

Necrotech_Master

i win like 95% of the time against novice npc using rahjin + red eagle deck right now lol

was playing the other day and the npc kept removing its own cards so it was down to like 8 cards left in its deck, and 6 of those were bewilderments

won that round like 53 - 0

i find it hilarious how the npc tries its hardest to play as badly as possible, i even once in a match saw the npc use treasury on an armory card, and then proceeded to use a card remover on another good card lol, the self gimping is hilarious

subarctic

Just now played a novice NPC. I had 10 prestige, the “novice” AI had 31 prestige… Today it didn’t let me win. ToT sucks, but is actually less boring than overland ESO, because ToT at least has an element of uncertainty while ESO overland is boring as hell. Trying to be play through overland High Isle for the first time, and can only endure it for 10-15 min. ESO is down the drain in many ways.

subarctic

The “novice” NPC just won 42-17, yay, fun game…

emilyhyoyeon

I don't understand why they don't revert novice AI to how it was originally.

I do not understand how buffing the novice NPCs was ever needed. Proficient and expert, yes, but not novice.

Novices using patrons, for instance, isn't even necessary to teach new players IMO. If novices are step one to learning the game, there's plenty of stuff, other than patron abilities, in the game to already think about that can be learned and practiced against novices; ex. what each card does without having to read the text, differences between types of cards, what to expect of card abilities based on the deck they're from.

I mention patron actives because that's one simple thing they can change to make the game less overwhelming for new or struggling players playing against novices by being one less thing to learn.

subarctic

@emilyhyoyeon

Yes, novice AI gives itself top cards and use patrons to speed ahead, but yesterday I had a game where it was almost certain the novice would win, because it was 36 while I was 20 or something, but two lucky turns made min win 57-45.

ToT is crazy but the unpredictability at least makes it more captivating than overland ESO. Bad when a card mini-game is better than the main game.

subarctic

Today the novice AI beat me 43 - 11

MidniteOwl1913

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I don't understand why they don't revert novice AI to how it was originally.

I do not understand how buffing the novice NPCs was ever needed. Proficient and expert, yes, but not novice.

Novices using patrons, for instance, isn't even necessary to teach new players IMO. If novices are step one to learning the game, there's plenty of stuff, other than patron abilities, in the game to already think about that can be learned and practiced against novices; ex. what each card does without having to read the text, differences between types of cards, what to expect of card abilities based on the deck they're from.

I mention patron actives because that's one simple thing they can change to make the game less overwhelming for new or struggling players playing against novices by being one less thing to learn.

Yes it was fine as it was. In fact the patch notes where novice was first adjusted said the expert player was being made harder, but in fact it was novice (or maybe both but for a time the expert was way easier). They then adjusted the difficulty of the novice, but it was still hard to beat, more adjustments and now it is easier to beat most of the time. As others have commented sometimes it just seems to switch on "beat the opponent" mode for reasons I have yet to figure out. And even when its losing it doesn't play like a novice. The original version did indeed play more like a novice.

Oh and yes sometimes I'm pretty sure that it has its thumb on the RNG scale...

SeaGtGruff

RNG can certainly be frustrating, and sometimes it seems like bad luck plus bad choices can create mental states which lead to more bad choices, like a ripple effect.

Last night I logged onto PC NA with 4 hours to spare before reset so I could do my daily stuff. My main was already parked in front of the Expert NPC in Vivec City, waiting to start on the 3 matches from the day before. (Sometimes I do that with ToT, do 2 days in a row, similar to what some players do with crafting writs, if I'm short on time.) I lost the first match. Then I lost the second match. Then I lost the third match. By the time I lost the sixth match, I was livid, because I'd just wasted an hour of my playtime when I had other things I wanted to get done. So I ended up running away and abandoning the quest in rage.

It's like when I want to solo a particular challenging world boss with a particular character who's done it several times before, but for whatever reason I wipe-- and then wipe again on the second try, and again on the third try, etc., until finally I've got no chance of succeeding because my state of mind is such that I can no longer make rational choices and react in a cool-headed manner. At times like that, I have to walk away and come back to the boss later so I can finally succeed at killing it.

Winning at ToT is partly a matter of RNG, yes, but it is mostly a matter of choices, and it's easy to make terrible choices if you've let yourself get worked up, whether it's with rage or distress. Keeping a calm, cool state of mind can be critical.

subarctic

“Keeping a calm, cool state of mind can be critical.”

Not against a novice ToT npc.

This card game is just not balanced.

subarctic

Just played a novice NPC. Four times the AI gave itself a card that rewarded it with 5 prestige points each time. It won 40 - 21.

El_Borracho

Played an expert NPC today. It whittled its deck down to 2 cards using Red Eagle because with each successive turn, the NPC had less and less coin, leaving only the cards worth 2-3 on the board, which were the Red Eagle "destroy one of your cards in play," and it did, until it was left with 2 power cards worth only 4 power every time. It was hilarious.

On the opposite end of the frustration spectrum is when the NPC "lucks" into multiple agent cards, then the deck runs dry of black hand or flaming wheelbarrow cards to get rid of the agents. Its got to the point that I almost always choose Rahjin or Celarus so I have the ability to get rid of agents without relying on RNG.

Necrotech_Master

El_Borracho wrote: »

Played an expert NPC today. It whittled its deck down to 2 cards using Red Eagle because with each successive turn, the NPC had less and less coin, leaving only the cards worth 2-3 on the board, which were the Red Eagle "destroy one of your cards in play," and it did, until it was left with 2 power cards worth only 4 power every time. It was hilarious.

On the opposite end of the frustration spectrum is when the NPC "lucks" into multiple agent cards, then the deck runs dry of black hand or flaming wheelbarrow cards to get rid of the agents. Its got to the point that I almost always choose Rahjin or Celarus so I have the ability to get rid of agents without relying on RNG.

thats the easiest way to beat the NPCs right now, rahjin + red eagle

with red eagle they can potentially destroy their entire deck if they get any of the reach agents, they also senselessly waste power using the red eagle patron

the NPCs also senselessly use the treasury too, they have literally destroyed good cards to replace them with writ of coin, but they refuse to do that to bewilderments

El_Borracho

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Played an expert NPC today. It whittled its deck down to 2 cards using Red Eagle because with each successive turn, the NPC had less and less coin, leaving only the cards worth 2-3 on the board, which were the Red Eagle "destroy one of your cards in play," and it did, until it was left with 2 power cards worth only 4 power every time. It was hilarious.

On the opposite end of the frustration spectrum is when the NPC "lucks" into multiple agent cards, then the deck runs dry of black hand or flaming wheelbarrow cards to get rid of the agents. Its got to the point that I almost always choose Rahjin or Celarus so I have the ability to get rid of agents without relying on RNG.

the NPCs also senselessly use the treasury too, they have literally destroyed good cards to replace them with writ of coin, but they refuse to do that to bewilderments

This happens more and more often. I prefer to play on expert as novice is a disaster zone. I've seen the expert NPC have 5 coin, spend 3 coin to get rid of Midnight Raid, then cash out a one card coin for a 2 coin card. Or situations where you buy a strong card, only to have another strong card pop up but you don't have enough coin to buy it, then watch the NPC use a treasury card or a patron to wipe the tavern of the good cards they could have bought.

I've complained about the RNG and NPC on these boards for their uncanny luck. I don't think this counters that, but its wildly entertaining

Necrotech_Master

El_Borracho wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Played an expert NPC today. It whittled its deck down to 2 cards using Red Eagle because with each successive turn, the NPC had less and less coin, leaving only the cards worth 2-3 on the board, which were the Red Eagle "destroy one of your cards in play," and it did, until it was left with 2 power cards worth only 4 power every time. It was hilarious.

On the opposite end of the frustration spectrum is when the NPC "lucks" into multiple agent cards, then the deck runs dry of black hand or flaming wheelbarrow cards to get rid of the agents. Its got to the point that I almost always choose Rahjin or Celarus so I have the ability to get rid of agents without relying on RNG.

the NPCs also senselessly use the treasury too, they have literally destroyed good cards to replace them with writ of coin, but they refuse to do that to bewilderments

This happens more and more often. I prefer to play on expert as novice is a disaster zone. I've seen the expert NPC have 5 coin, spend 3 coin to get rid of Midnight Raid, then cash out a one card coin for a 2 coin card. Or situations where you buy a strong card, only to have another strong card pop up but you don't have enough coin to buy it, then watch the NPC use a treasury card or a patron to wipe the tavern of the good cards they could have bought.

I've complained about the RNG and NPC on these boards for their uncanny luck. I don't think this counters that, but its wildly entertaining

the novice NPCs do the same exact thing, they could pick up a midnight raid and then either remove it from their deck the following turn or treasury the midnight raid into a writ of coin lol

but they never touch bewilderments lol

i even once saw a novice npc take a writ of coin and treasury it to a writ of coin, effectively wasting that turn

El_Borracho

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Played an expert NPC today. It whittled its deck down to 2 cards using Red Eagle because with each successive turn, the NPC had less and less coin, leaving only the cards worth 2-3 on the board, which were the Red Eagle "destroy one of your cards in play," and it did, until it was left with 2 power cards worth only 4 power every time. It was hilarious.

On the opposite end of the frustration spectrum is when the NPC "lucks" into multiple agent cards, then the deck runs dry of black hand or flaming wheelbarrow cards to get rid of the agents. Its got to the point that I almost always choose Rahjin or Celarus so I have the ability to get rid of agents without relying on RNG.

the NPCs also senselessly use the treasury too, they have literally destroyed good cards to replace them with writ of coin, but they refuse to do that to bewilderments

This happens more and more often. I prefer to play on expert as novice is a disaster zone. I've seen the expert NPC have 5 coin, spend 3 coin to get rid of Midnight Raid, then cash out a one card coin for a 2 coin card. Or situations where you buy a strong card, only to have another strong card pop up but you don't have enough coin to buy it, then watch the NPC use a treasury card or a patron to wipe the tavern of the good cards they could have bought.

I've complained about the RNG and NPC on these boards for their uncanny luck. I don't think this counters that, but its wildly entertaining

i even once saw a novice npc take a writ of coin and treasury it to a writ of coin, effectively wasting that turn

Hahaha. I've seen the NPC cash out Rally and other high power cards by using the Hlaalu patron for no reason. I get it if I am over 40 and they need that to extend the game, but this was when nobody was over 20.

The most common "WTF" move NPCs make is hitting the Crow patron for a cool 7-9 power way too early in the game. Its great

Necrotech_Master

El_Borracho wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Played an expert NPC today. It whittled its deck down to 2 cards using Red Eagle because with each successive turn, the NPC had less and less coin, leaving only the cards worth 2-3 on the board, which were the Red Eagle "destroy one of your cards in play," and it did, until it was left with 2 power cards worth only 4 power every time. It was hilarious.

On the opposite end of the frustration spectrum is when the NPC "lucks" into multiple agent cards, then the deck runs dry of black hand or flaming wheelbarrow cards to get rid of the agents. Its got to the point that I almost always choose Rahjin or Celarus so I have the ability to get rid of agents without relying on RNG.

the NPCs also senselessly use the treasury too, they have literally destroyed good cards to replace them with writ of coin, but they refuse to do that to bewilderments

This happens more and more often. I prefer to play on expert as novice is a disaster zone. I've seen the expert NPC have 5 coin, spend 3 coin to get rid of Midnight Raid, then cash out a one card coin for a 2 coin card. Or situations where you buy a strong card, only to have another strong card pop up but you don't have enough coin to buy it, then watch the NPC use a treasury card or a patron to wipe the tavern of the good cards they could have bought.

I've complained about the RNG and NPC on these boards for their uncanny luck. I don't think this counters that, but its wildly entertaining

i even once saw a novice npc take a writ of coin and treasury it to a writ of coin, effectively wasting that turn

Hahaha. I've seen the NPC cash out Rally and other high power cards by using the Hlaalu patron for no reason. I get it if I am over 40 and they need that to extend the game, but this was when nobody was over 20.

The most common "WTF" move NPCs make is hitting the Crow patron for a cool 7-9 power way too early in the game. Its great

if hlaalu is in play, it will destroy EVERY card that they buy with that patron (which is why i like rahjin because the -prestige counters that along with bewilderments to slow it down from buying more cards)

with the crow, the novice npc will usually hit crow on its first turn with only 1 coin, gaining nothing from the crow lol

TheImperfect

I like that the AI can beat me sometimes now - it never did before the majority of the time, now it whoops me a fair amount. I prefer it.

subarctic

I like uncertainty in games (that’s why I often complain about ESO’s boring overland combat), so in one way I can live with the frustrations of ToT, but ToT is not really a card game, it’s something else, a strange AI game of RNG. Guess I’m kind of “okay” with that as long as the rewards are good.

Necrotech_Master

TheImperfect wrote: »

I like that the AI can beat me sometimes now - it never did before the majority of the time, now it whoops me a fair amount. I prefer it.

i still find the NPCs of any difficulty to be about 90% the same and extremely predictable lol

but its still immensely more enjoyable than playing pvp tribute, which is why i continue to do it lol

subarctic

Just had a game with a novice NPC. First it gave itself 15 prestige while I had only 2, then it jumped to 35 prestige and I was sure I was going to lose, because I had 16, but then I made two smart moves (I’m dumb generally) and won the game!

Very unpredictable

NIEVESICE

I always defeat the NPCs, not once do they win, it's almost ridiculous to play with them but, while the exact opposite happens to me with other players and not because I don't know how to play but systematically the game system always makes it easier for my opponent, I find it unfair that the system decides and not the skill in knowing how to play, it should concern the modality of this game

AzuraFan

I only play ToT sporadically and I'm not having any problem beating the novice NPCs. I've noticed some changes (they use the patrons now), but otherwise they don't seem all that much smarter than they were when ToT was initially released.

I don't like that the NPC always goes first, both for choosing the patrons and the hand order. There should be a die roll to determine the order. (maybe there is and I just keep losing lol)