IncultaWolf wrote: »I've gotten so many hate whispers using Mora recently. Some of these top 50 ranked players on PCNA are sending me these rude messages too, kinda amusing. At least the matches end pretty quickly with this deck. I've had 45 minute player matches with Rajhin.
Necrotech_Master wrote: »i only played a few pvp tribute games with this deck to get the achievement for the card upgrade
i dont really like the deck either because to me a lot of the cards negatives far outweigh the positives
i understand the deck is supposed to be kiss-curse due to it representing a daedric entity as there is always a price to pay for the power, but many of the cards seem to be more curse than beneficial
only a few that were mentioned have the potential to being good like the huge power gen from only giving the opponent 2 coins
Personofsecrets wrote: »Let's say that speeding up games, the designers stated objective, is a good cause. And I don't think that it is a good cause in the vast majority of games, but let's say that it is generally speaking because some games could be sped up to most peoples benefit.
I don't understand how Mora successfully meets that objective.
A number of games, the patron's use isn't meaningfully impacting game time. My average ranked game time is 9:57 and my average casual game time is 9:21.
There are some games where a couple of minutes shaved off. Not enough to make a big deal out of, but enough to see what happens when someone runs the Mora scums. Is a couple of minutes time saved really worth people's dignity? Is it worth creating a new form of bad game experience?
Was it all really worth it when already existing game pieces could have been adjusted to fix the time issue?
Some people legitimately don't like longer games and that's fine. But wacky hot air balloon ride style games where power matters was a bad "solution."
Increasing animation speed is a great solution. Rejecting game pieces which encourage toxic repetitive gameplay patterns is a good solution. Increasing the number of options in the tavern is a possibly good solution.
Hearthstone is a dirty word. Remember that. It is the jail that people go to when the don't have anything better to do. Do you give people something better to do when you emulate Hearthstone? No, you just become like Hearthstone and thus without quality that makes you special.
Arnoldthehawk wrote: »Fast games are the fun games. You want slow games? Please don't queue for ToT games
Personofsecrets wrote: »
Unfortunately, I think that the concept of Mora would have lent itself better to effects like Psijic Scrying or Almalexia card refreshing. I can understand the Barter in Blood concept being used for the Daedra, but this particular gameplay style would have been better represented by Sheo than a daedric prince chiefly concerned with omnipotence.
So the theme feels off to me.
Personofsecrets wrote: »My experience is that the Patron's use doesn't generally save time. And the times that I've found it saving time, the games are often incredibly 1 sides or unfun due to blow out scenarios. For example I won a Mora game on my 4 turn or something because I scummed a Currency Exchange victory after putting it into my deck, on the suffle, with Mora.
Speaking of the theme of the daedric prince, neither Hermaeus Mora nor Sheogorath fits in the activity of bargin for power. The former is the daedric prince of secrets and knowledges and the latter of madness. Calavicus Vile is the prince of bargin and deal, and the "negative" effect of the cards certainly makes the deal fair, in accordance with that the prince is neutral in human affairs.
and actually what you have mentioned is exactly how this deck reduces the time. The most tedious combination of decks from my experience would be Rahjin+Psijic+Almalexia+Druid King, and if you try get full hand of almalexia and psijic order and keeps donating cards confine cards shuffle cards and replace cards, you won't even be able to finish your turn before the time runs out. That opening the card window and selecting things and pressing confirm button are all time wastes. So in comparison with that, Mora is much more time saving
Personofsecrets wrote: »
Thank you for mentioning about Clavicus - I was thinking way too generally.
Regarding how time is "saved" by blow out games - it seems silly to mention how time is saved just because someone won extremely early. That is because the amount of time that it takes to play a game is being used as a measure of "fun." I don't see how games that are decided quickly are fun whatsoever. It can be because Mora added a stupid card to someons deck, because someone got too much value from an uncontested Ansei Patron flip, or because Siege Weapon Volley smacked someone in the face over and over with the help of Psijic cards to reset the shuffle.
The goal is satisfying games, right? Not just fast games because a game being fast, in and of itself, doesn't mean much.
There are the decks that you mention and also Crow. Crow has alot of long combo chains and the draw effect can be tedious. And this point is where your comment sort of rolls into what I'm saying. Instead of making universal changes to the game that could speed up all decks, the designers just went for a bandaid fix which doesn't even necessarily speed up games that well because the underlying issues such as animations speeds remain in the game.
What if someone wants faster games, but doesn't necessarily like the playstyle offered by Mora cards? I think it's fair to say that a number of people are in that boat.
"However, let me just come back to the duration of the game. To find out if it's faster with Mora, we can test out by doing comparison experiment, which could take such a long time that I cannot afford to spend. But a thought experiment would be less time consuming: Choose whatever combination of 4 patrons, excluding Mora, as the comparison. Then randomly change one of them into Mora. Since Mora is reletively direct power gain, this means quicker to gain prestige, generally speaking, and skipping all the animation of draw cards, shuffle, etc. Once you've played the card, there is less things that you can do compared with playing with other cards, cuz mora gains power and not many golds. The offset of Mora also makes your opponent quicker to gain access to more expensive cards, which again could take more rounds to become true if otherwise, and that could probably be equivalent to what you said about "early" stage of the game in terms of time, but actually "late" stage in terms of your card decks."
- - - - -
"That being said, one is always free to do things in which he/she finds "fun", by himself/herself, and under the structure of a certain sets of rules(as in game) or realities(as in real life). But when it comes to interact with others, there can always be some non-alignments between the two or more entities on the matter of "fun". In the case of ToT, I'm pretty sure that even now Rahjin is still more hated than Mora for being disturbed by your opponent, because that gaining strong and multiple combos is simply THE typical thing that can bring a huge and instant sense of satisfactory. Imagine ruining that with a sudden bewilderment drawn by the crow, lol.
And that card games becomes oneside-blowout, that's where it is fun for some people, for the same reason mentioned above, and normally would bring discourage to the other. But it mostly is equi-probabilistic, though there are some other factor that you can do to influence that.
And let's not forget about that people tends to enjoy winning a gamble. And those people tend to call all the actions from the opponent that involves increasing the chance of wining as trickery or cheating or some other things that gives the sense of not recognizing these actions as valid."
WitchyKiki wrote: »I kind of like it, it does speed up games and I like how it adds a new aspect to the game. Some cards Ive had to skip in order not to give my opponent an advantage. I also like that it does speed up games. Matches are done so quick, regardless if I lose or win I'm just happy to get another coffer so fast
WitchyKiki wrote: »I kind of like it, it does speed up games and I like how it adds a new aspect to the game. Some cards Ive had to skip in order not to give my opponent an advantage. I also like that it does speed up games. Matches are done so quick, regardless if I lose or win I'm just happy to get another coffer so fast
The problem is, the people playing competitively on the LB don't want to throw away their score because of poorly balanced game design. They need ways for casuals to get coffers that don't boil the whole game down to luck in competitive. It's really frustrating being on a hot streak in competitive, playing good games against good players, and then running into a Mora spammer who boils the entire game down to RNG and removes almost all skill from the equation. No one good is picking Mora in competitive. The top players abandoned it quickly because it's too much risk. Card games always have an element of luck, but Druid and Mora are literally game-ruining RNG farms. Even crow, pelin, and organum (commonly cited as RNG decks) can be countered and combated by skilled players on the wrong end of luck. Druid and Mora it's just who gets lucky on hand 1 or 2 and then they have a MASSIVE edge over the player that did not get lucky.
You should not be able to get 10+ power on turn 1 or 2 based solely on tavern luck. That's insanity.
maxxiestackhouse wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »Patron effect that makes the game wacky by causing game states that shouldn't happen at early stages of the game - Check
Patron effect that makes further abuse of the games reshuffle - Check
Power matters too much - Check
Because power matters, the necesity to employ strategies that give the opponent wacky bonuses - Check
Numerous contracts that don't cost enough causing blow-out turns out of nowhere - Check
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IncultaWolf wrote: »I've gotten so many hate whispers using Mora recently. Some of these top 50 ranked players on PCNA are sending me these rude messages too, kinda amusing. At least the matches end pretty quickly with this deck. I've had 45 minute player matches with Rajhin.
IncultaWolf wrote: »I've gotten so many hate whispers using Mora recently. Some of these top 50 ranked players on PCNA are sending me these rude messages too, kinda amusing. At least the matches end pretty quickly with this deck. I've had 45 minute player matches with Rajhin.
I've had 30 minute plus player matches with almost every deck because some players act like ToT is grand master level chess and the very opening move merits running down the timer to 1 second... I really, really wish we had the option to block people.
That said, I still think giving each player the ability to veto one deck would improve the game enormously and add a bit of spice. If you hated Mora, you could veto it. (yes, this should not be possible against players who have only the four base decks)