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Endless Archive has potential for both Casual and Hardcore players with some changes.
grewkshd
✭✭
First of all, I'd like to say that I really enjoy the addition of the Endless Archive. Purely based on my own subjective opinion, the game is far stronger for having an alternative system added in Q4, rather than having 2 extra dungeons, when we already get two per year anyway. Providing of course, the Endless Archive is contionously updated with every update, with new content, some suggestions I will include myself. The specific concept of Endless Archive I enjoy very much, but I do have some constructive feedback which I believe, will be of the
benefit to all who engage, or want to engage but aren't doing so, with the current content.
This will be a long post, but I hope it's taken in the right way, in that it demonstrates my support for the new system and I recognise the potential.
Decision making before you enter Endless Archive vs Decision making within Endless Archive
I can't help but feel there is an imbalance here in multiple areas.
Problem 1) It feels as though the decisions you make before you enter the Endless Archive, are more important than the decisions you make when choosing your visions and verses
I can't help but feel as though the visions you choose, quickly become almost meaningless, especially as you enter Arc 3 and onwards. The power you obtain from them, is not enough
to keep up with the health and armor increases that it feels the ads have. This is actually less of an issue with Arc bosses and even Thoat, the ad rounds are the most difficult and
overwhelming part as you get further into the endless archive. Visions in particular need a significant buff, there should be a scenario where Arc 3/4/5 should actually feel easier than
Arc 1/2, if you choose visions which synergise well together, but that's not the case at all. No matter your choices, you become weaker, thus your decisions within the archive feel pretty
meaningless.
In fact, your build upon entering the archive is far more important than the visions and verses you choose. This is where I feel as though Casual players are losing interest with this mode quick. It's more important for them to go onto the internet, find a content creator with a strong meta build, rather than it is to actually play the content and pick their own visions and verses. The strength of the borrowed power the player receives is far too weak, compared to strength of the borrowed power the ai gets.
Problem 2) Endless Archives doesn't feel very 'Endless', in fact just looking at the Leaderboards suggests there is actually a pretty significant almost 'hard cap' around Arc 5/6 on solo builds.
Again, providing I make good decisions within the Archive, I should be able to progress. Right now, we can enter the archive with the very best meta builds, take the very best synergised visions and verses we're offered, and still be unable to progress, through no fault of our own decisions. Which is perfectly fine....But not when you label the content as 'Endless', it's not endless if it is physically impossible to progress further.
Potential Solutions
- Boost the strength of visions
- Boost the strength of verses
- Stack Verses in between the acquirement of visions, making your decisions matter more, allowing better synergies and giving the player more borrowed power, which this mode is really all
about. Essentially, your verses should stack and last the entire cycle.
Whatever the solution is, Visions and Verses need to somehow remain relevant at all times. Currently they're too weak. Creatures currently gain more power/health etc as you progress in Arcs, yet your rewards through visions and verses remain the same, it's not balanced. I don't feel as though my runs come to a natural end, it feels as though there is a hard cap.
The Endless Archives takes too long/Why can't we save?
I think a large part of this too, comes from the points above. The fact we can't actually progress 'realistically', beyond Arc 5/6 as a solo player, contributes to this too. But there's no doubt that there are too many arcs before we face Thoat.
An Arc should be reduced to the following -
Ads - Ads - Cycle Boss
Ads - Ads - Cycle Boss
Ads - Ads/Marauder - Thoat
You can cut XP/Gold/Archival fortunes rewards accordingly, that's fine. But this should also coincide with a reduction in how quickly difficulty builds up. Arc 10-12 should be what Arc 5-6 is currently, with regards to the time it takes to get there. Although given I've suggested an increase to the strength of verses and visions, you should be able to get there far more quickly if taking visions and verses which synergise well.
Of course I 100% agree with the "We need to be able to save our run", which I've yet to see any realisitic arguments as to why that can't happen, besides technological ones. Whether or not I agree with being able to enter the Archive at a later level, I'm not too sure, as that would require far more balancing, than the important adjustments that are already needed.
A couple of extra changes/going forward
I don't like the idea of unlockable power being stuck behind mini games. To me, the mini games aren't fun, and forcing people to do them to unlock power, might just result in some people
quitting. Unlocks should just be currency based only.
More unlockable powers-
- Begin your run with a random vision
- Begin your run with a random verse, which stays with you throughout your entire run
(I'm torn as to whether the two above should be random, or chosen, as people continously resetting runs until they get one they want isn't a good mechanic)
Threads should be Verse rather than vision rewards
Weekend events - Double currency/double visions etc type events to encourage players to replay.
Oh, and a final one - Leaderboards + Companions
There should be a seperate Duo leaderboard for Player + Companion. Obviously it goes without saying that a player and a companion are at two completely different power levels, so they need their own leaderboards. I think you actually add an extra third of content, just by doing this, and encouraging players to min max their companions. Currently there is no desire to, as you will simply never make the duo leaderboard as two players will always be stronger.
Does this have to be the case though, isn't this the perfect mode to see companions shine? I can't help but feel a trick has been missed here, to make the Endless Archive a zone where companions really can flourish. There could/should be a whole new system within, designed to give companions borrowed power within the archive. There has to be a way for us to progress our companions health/damage etc within the archive, otherwise we have the problem we have now with companions and visions, where they're stuck at a base level, whilst all enemies enhance in strength. Another 'merchant type' figure in the area before we enter the endless archive, where we can unlock, somehow, additional power for the companions, is needed.
Maybe an 'Ascendancy system'? As a Path of Exile player, I think such a system would allow companions to flourish in the Archive. There should be a way to enhance your companions abilities within the archive and make them both more specialist tanks/healers/dps, and also stronger.
I guess fundamentally, I just want to see more risks taken within the mode. We don't carry power from this mode anywhere else, so it's the perfect place to experiment. One of the big problems outside of the archive, is the fact that sets have to be balanced around PVE + PVP at the same time....That isn't a problem in the Archive, unless you make it a problem. Something I guess will never happen, is a complete redesign of how the whole system works. It would've been far easier to balance the system if we took no character power into the Endless archive system. We have no champion points, no set bonuses, no skill lines etc.
Everyone would enter the archive at the same place, it doesn't matter whether you started yesterday, or 5 years ago. There would be no 'META Endless Archive' class sets and builds that you would enter the archive with, instead, everything would be unlockable within the archive itself. Each class would start with just 1 attack skill and a base level of Health/Mag/Stam + Armor. You then can purchase more class skills/guild skills etc, as you progress and earn more currency. There's far too much character power, to be able to create a mode such as this and balance it in a way which can appease to a large proportion of the player base. All power should reside within the Archive itself.
benefit to all who engage, or want to engage but aren't doing so, with the current content.
This will be a long post, but I hope it's taken in the right way, in that it demonstrates my support for the new system and I recognise the potential.
Decision making before you enter Endless Archive vs Decision making within Endless Archive
I can't help but feel there is an imbalance here in multiple areas.
Problem 1) It feels as though the decisions you make before you enter the Endless Archive, are more important than the decisions you make when choosing your visions and verses
I can't help but feel as though the visions you choose, quickly become almost meaningless, especially as you enter Arc 3 and onwards. The power you obtain from them, is not enough
to keep up with the health and armor increases that it feels the ads have. This is actually less of an issue with Arc bosses and even Thoat, the ad rounds are the most difficult and
overwhelming part as you get further into the endless archive. Visions in particular need a significant buff, there should be a scenario where Arc 3/4/5 should actually feel easier than
Arc 1/2, if you choose visions which synergise well together, but that's not the case at all. No matter your choices, you become weaker, thus your decisions within the archive feel pretty
meaningless.
In fact, your build upon entering the archive is far more important than the visions and verses you choose. This is where I feel as though Casual players are losing interest with this mode quick. It's more important for them to go onto the internet, find a content creator with a strong meta build, rather than it is to actually play the content and pick their own visions and verses. The strength of the borrowed power the player receives is far too weak, compared to strength of the borrowed power the ai gets.
Problem 2) Endless Archives doesn't feel very 'Endless', in fact just looking at the Leaderboards suggests there is actually a pretty significant almost 'hard cap' around Arc 5/6 on solo builds.
Again, providing I make good decisions within the Archive, I should be able to progress. Right now, we can enter the archive with the very best meta builds, take the very best synergised visions and verses we're offered, and still be unable to progress, through no fault of our own decisions. Which is perfectly fine....But not when you label the content as 'Endless', it's not endless if it is physically impossible to progress further.
Potential Solutions
- Boost the strength of visions
- Boost the strength of verses
- Stack Verses in between the acquirement of visions, making your decisions matter more, allowing better synergies and giving the player more borrowed power, which this mode is really all
about. Essentially, your verses should stack and last the entire cycle.
Whatever the solution is, Visions and Verses need to somehow remain relevant at all times. Currently they're too weak. Creatures currently gain more power/health etc as you progress in Arcs, yet your rewards through visions and verses remain the same, it's not balanced. I don't feel as though my runs come to a natural end, it feels as though there is a hard cap.
The Endless Archives takes too long/Why can't we save?
I think a large part of this too, comes from the points above. The fact we can't actually progress 'realistically', beyond Arc 5/6 as a solo player, contributes to this too. But there's no doubt that there are too many arcs before we face Thoat.
An Arc should be reduced to the following -
Ads - Ads - Cycle Boss
Ads - Ads - Cycle Boss
Ads - Ads/Marauder - Thoat
You can cut XP/Gold/Archival fortunes rewards accordingly, that's fine. But this should also coincide with a reduction in how quickly difficulty builds up. Arc 10-12 should be what Arc 5-6 is currently, with regards to the time it takes to get there. Although given I've suggested an increase to the strength of verses and visions, you should be able to get there far more quickly if taking visions and verses which synergise well.
Of course I 100% agree with the "We need to be able to save our run", which I've yet to see any realisitic arguments as to why that can't happen, besides technological ones. Whether or not I agree with being able to enter the Archive at a later level, I'm not too sure, as that would require far more balancing, than the important adjustments that are already needed.
A couple of extra changes/going forward
I don't like the idea of unlockable power being stuck behind mini games. To me, the mini games aren't fun, and forcing people to do them to unlock power, might just result in some people
quitting. Unlocks should just be currency based only.
More unlockable powers-
- Begin your run with a random vision
- Begin your run with a random verse, which stays with you throughout your entire run
(I'm torn as to whether the two above should be random, or chosen, as people continously resetting runs until they get one they want isn't a good mechanic)
Threads should be Verse rather than vision rewards
Weekend events - Double currency/double visions etc type events to encourage players to replay.
Oh, and a final one - Leaderboards + Companions
There should be a seperate Duo leaderboard for Player + Companion. Obviously it goes without saying that a player and a companion are at two completely different power levels, so they need their own leaderboards. I think you actually add an extra third of content, just by doing this, and encouraging players to min max their companions. Currently there is no desire to, as you will simply never make the duo leaderboard as two players will always be stronger.
Does this have to be the case though, isn't this the perfect mode to see companions shine? I can't help but feel a trick has been missed here, to make the Endless Archive a zone where companions really can flourish. There could/should be a whole new system within, designed to give companions borrowed power within the archive. There has to be a way for us to progress our companions health/damage etc within the archive, otherwise we have the problem we have now with companions and visions, where they're stuck at a base level, whilst all enemies enhance in strength. Another 'merchant type' figure in the area before we enter the endless archive, where we can unlock, somehow, additional power for the companions, is needed.
Maybe an 'Ascendancy system'? As a Path of Exile player, I think such a system would allow companions to flourish in the Archive. There should be a way to enhance your companions abilities within the archive and make them both more specialist tanks/healers/dps, and also stronger.
I guess fundamentally, I just want to see more risks taken within the mode. We don't carry power from this mode anywhere else, so it's the perfect place to experiment. One of the big problems outside of the archive, is the fact that sets have to be balanced around PVE + PVP at the same time....That isn't a problem in the Archive, unless you make it a problem. Something I guess will never happen, is a complete redesign of how the whole system works. It would've been far easier to balance the system if we took no character power into the Endless archive system. We have no champion points, no set bonuses, no skill lines etc.
Everyone would enter the archive at the same place, it doesn't matter whether you started yesterday, or 5 years ago. There would be no 'META Endless Archive' class sets and builds that you would enter the archive with, instead, everything would be unlockable within the archive itself. Each class would start with just 1 attack skill and a base level of Health/Mag/Stam + Armor. You then can purchase more class skills/guild skills etc, as you progress and earn more currency. There's far too much character power, to be able to create a mode such as this and balance it in a way which can appease to a large proportion of the player base. All power should reside within the Archive itself.
5
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Danikat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For me as a casual player the single most important change is making it possible to save your progress. I'm find with it resetting when I die, but if it resets just because I have to take a break or stop playing for a while it's never going to be worth attempting for me, and then how it works is irrelevant.
I might try it at some point, and when I do I might find the difficultly is actually ok for me (especially since I'm never going to care about leaderboards) but as long as any time I can put into it is most likely to be wasted because I can't meet the schedule the game has chosen for me I'm going to put my time towards something else instead.PC EU player | She/her/hers | PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
"Remember in this game we call life that no one said it's fair"0 -
Lugaldu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭For me, the EA is only entertaining to a certain extent and the more often I go there, the more repetitive and boring I find it. Overall, I don´t see it as some kind of replacement for a story DLC in Q4.7 -
Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Agreed with this. It would be fun if we could keep part of the verses we pick. For example: We pick the 50% aoe damage verse, after that cycle we keep maybe a 10% aoe damage buff. When doing this for all verses, our characters would gradually grow in power, the more we progress. It would also make mini games slightly more important. Visions should be much stronger too, most are worthless.Problem 1) It feels as though the decisions you make before you enter the Endless Archive, are more important than the decisions you make when choosing your visions and verses
Even though I have only gotten to the end of arc 4 solo, I sort of agree. But I would not want fewer cycles, as that only means more resetting the archive while getting fewer rewards. Changing the arc 5-6 difficulty to arc 9-10 changes nothing, just the numbers. It would still be hardcapped. But having the difficulty cap is alright. Combine this with allowing verses to allow players to gradually grow in power, this should be a non-issue.Problem 2) Endless Archives doesn't feel very 'Endless', in fact just looking at the Leaderboards suggests there is actually a pretty significant almost 'hard cap' around Arc 5/6 on solo builds.
This I agree with, as long as losing all threads means a player is out. And the archive needs a training function. Where the master archiver spawns any boss(including Tho'at) at any arc difficulty we want, so we can train against them. Again, I would not want fewer cycles, as that only pushes the problem forward.The Endless Archives takes too long/Why can't we save?
I disagree about the minigames not being fun. Maybe make completing a minigame grant a vision. But I agree that extra threads should be coming from verses, so they are more easily gained. Weekend events would be fun too!A couple of extra changes/going forward
Another suggestion, is some chase memento's, which cost a lot of fortunes(one million or more). Permanent archive memento's like: Transform verses always randomly available, all verses become visions(or partly), double fortune drops, and maybe some more really powerful stuff. Chase memento's so we can keep gaining fortunes for something worthwhile.
Agreed, right now companions are useless from arc 3 onwards and on most bosses(like Tho'at). Having a companion is not like going solo but it isn't even close to going in as duo players either. So it should have it's own leaderboard.Oh, and a final one - Leaderboards + Companions
Another upgrade for companions, we should be able to passively pick companion verses. Verses like flame aura/shield verses and such would fit them. Or let the game randomly pick a verse that fits a companion each stage.0 -
MidniteOwl1913✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I too don't find the minigames fun and as they get harder they are even less fun.
Yes save points, and I never expect to be on the leaderboards, but in all fairness companions are not people. They should be considered pets for this purpose so that blasted vision about pets will have some use.
I think that the first arc should have a limited range of bosses, I don't think the Serpent, Rakkhat, and the Forgotten should be included.
PS5/NA1