ToT Released as Board Game and/or Digitally Standalone

kmfdm

Tales of Tribute is easily the best competitive or non-competitive deck builder I've played, and I've played majority of them, including Dominion, Star/Hero Realms, Tyrants of the Underdark, Aeon's End, Shards of Infinity, Rune Age, Legendary Encounters Alien, ... including deck-builder spinoffs like Dune or Lost Ruins of Arnak. With a strong solo campaign mode, I think this game could become very popular on the BGG. If not released as a board game, it could still be released digitally as a standalone game with its own launcher and ranking system, because---even though I have no idea how is it performing compared to internal estimates--it seems that the MMORPG crowd is not and can not be really appreciating this game to the fullest extent; it might just not be the target audience for deckbuilders in general.

Personofsecrets

Other than a few effects that create card tokens and place them in the deck, there isn't anything hindering a physical game. Maybe I should make one.

rbfrgsp

Since the release of druid deck, the compound abilities of card combos / while in play cards would make a tabletop version unplayable now.

People playing things out of strict order, but calculating their totals as if they played in a different order; burning played cards then still using them to combo with others, etc.

Would be awful.

BlackRaidho

What a joke.
ToT is pure RNG garbage. Most of the games are done already in few rounds.

kmfdm

I don't see any aspect of the Druid deck to be problematic for a tabletop version. What could be slightly difficult is the Hermaeus Mora Patrón, but really, it wouldn't need to mirror the ruleset completely, some parts could be streamlined.

kmfdm

BlackRaidho wrote: »

What a joke.
ToT is pure RNG garbage. Most of the games are done already in few rounds.

Ehm nope, not really, is this your first deck-builder?

Personofsecrets

kmfdm wrote: »

I don't see any aspect of the Druid deck to be problematic for a tabletop version. What could be slightly difficult is the Hermaeus Mora Patrón, but really, it wouldn't need to mirror the ruleset completely, some parts could be streamlined.

There isn't any reason that a copy has to do everything the same, especially bad things.

spartaxoxo

If the copy isn't essentially the same, then it just becomes whoever made its personal opinion on balance and not the real game. I wouldn't play a version that wasn't the same.

Personofsecrets

Sure, but saying that the devs will do it best is just as arbitrary at best and flawed at worst given that we see how they handle the game.

spartaxoxo

No. Not really. It's the devs that created the game. It's the devs that have the official prizes that can be used in-game. It's the devs that have the best data about what's really happening.

Edit: Also, nobody could possibly make changes that I agree with 100% of the time, except me.

Personofsecrets

spartaxoxo wrote: »

No. Not really. It's the devs that created the game. It's the devs that have the official prizes that can be used in-game. It's the devs that have the best data about what's really happening.

Edit: Also, nobody could possibly make changes that I agree with 100% of the time, except me.

A.) There have been plenty of successors to prior invention. Making changes to existing structures before those who were to blind or to stuborn to make the changes is a giant part of industry.

B.) I could give out a hypothetical prize that is alot cooler than 100k gold.

C.) If developers have data, but are unable to use it in ways that would be the most productive, then it really doens't matter how much data they have.

Nobody could make a game that is 100% perfect, but TOT could be improved by 100%

spartaxoxo

There's a pretty significant difference between trying something new, that's inspired by the old thing. And just tweaking someone else's thing. A new deck builder in the genre might be interesting, Tales of Tribute with some fan's idea of what is good balance is not.

Not really. I play Tales specifically because it is interconnected with ESO.

I might not agree with every balance change, but they have been productive and I find Tales overall more fun than its release state. But, that's entirely subjective.

rbfrgsp

kmfdm wrote: »

I don't see any aspect of the Druid deck to be problematic for a tabletop version. What could be slightly difficult is the Hermaeus Mora Patrón, but really, it wouldn't need to mirror the ruleset completely, some parts could be streamlined.

By "since druid", I mean all additions including and after the druid deck.

Consider actually tallying simultaneous coin/power/prestige generation in a tabletop game when you have say Druid and Almalexia in play together; you have vestments, haruspex, and wraith already in play, you began flipping cards with Philanthropy at the start of the combo, then another Philanthropy halfway through, and you pickup Mournhold Clergy somewhere in the middle.

Not a ridiculous situation: parts of this combo happen frequently in games with these two decks. If you're using card counters you will run out of counters. If you're tallying scores on paper then every card in the combo is potentially adding digits to all three columns.

The game would flow like treacle.

Personofsecrets

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There's a pretty significant difference between trying something new, that's inspired by the old thing. And just tweaking someone else's thing. A new deck builder in the genre might be interesting, Tales of Tribute with some fan's idea of what is good balance is not.

Not really. I play Tales specifically because it is interconnected with ESO.

I might not agree with every balance change, but they have been productive and I find Tales overall more fun than its release state. But, that's entirely subjective.

If it's all subjective preference than how do you know that you wouldn't find some fan's idea of what is best for TOT to end up being very interesting? After all, this fan who you are talking to has documented a number of changes to the game including those of balance and of mechanics that were changed after this fans suggesting. So you are liking TOT more now? You're welcome.

It also may be pertinent to add that designers shamelessly taking parts from the games that they like is so much the industry standard that such dynamics are often talked about in "how to" design games seminars.

kmfdm

rbfrgsp wrote: »

kmfdm wrote: »

I don't see any aspect of the Druid deck to be problematic for a tabletop version. What could be slightly difficult is the Hermaeus Mora Patrón, but really, it wouldn't need to mirror the ruleset completely, some parts could be streamlined.

By "since druid", I mean all additions including and after the druid deck.

Consider actually tallying simultaneous coin/power/prestige generation in a tabletop game when you have say Druid and Almalexia in play together; you have vestments, haruspex, and wraith already in play, you began flipping cards with Philanthropy at the start of the combo, then another Philanthropy halfway through, and you pickup Mournhold Clergy somewhere in the middle.

Not a ridiculous situation: parts of this combo happen frequently in games with these two decks. If you're using card counters you will run out of counters. If you're tallying scores on paper then every card in the combo is potentially adding digits to all three columns.

The game would flow like treacle.

Sure, but they could start with the first four patrons or even eight, and possibly making minor changes to some of the later cards that would be too fiddly; I dont see much of a problem there.

BlackRaidho

kmfdm wrote: »

BlackRaidho wrote: »

What a joke.
ToT is pure RNG garbage. Most of the games are done already in few rounds.

Ehm nope, not really, is this your first deck-builder?

"Deckbuilding cardgame". End of joke.

There is no "building", you just cross your fingers to be able to buy good cards in the tavern. If your opponent take enough good ones and you can't, it's done. Once again : RNG garbage.

Personofsecrets

rbfrgsp wrote: »

kmfdm wrote: »

I don't see any aspect of the Druid deck to be problematic for a tabletop version. What could be slightly difficult is the Hermaeus Mora Patrón, but really, it wouldn't need to mirror the ruleset completely, some parts could be streamlined.

By "since druid", I mean all additions including and after the druid deck.

Consider actually tallying simultaneous coin/power/prestige generation in a tabletop game when you have say Druid and Almalexia in play together; you have vestments, haruspex, and wraith already in play, you began flipping cards with Philanthropy at the start of the combo, then another Philanthropy halfway through, and you pickup Mournhold Clergy somewhere in the middle.

Not a ridiculous situation: parts of this combo happen frequently in games with these two decks. If you're using card counters you will run out of counters. If you're tallying scores on paper then every card in the combo is potentially adding digits to all three columns.

The game would flow like treacle.

You are right to have caution, but games are already passing thresholds greater than what few dice and carefully taking ones time can handle.

https://ygorganization.com/strategy-new-age-infernity-loops/

https://ygorganization.com/infernity-loop-satisfaction-version/

So that's to say, have some faith in what people are capable of.

kmfdm

BlackRaidho wrote: »

kmfdm wrote: »

BlackRaidho wrote: »

What a joke.
ToT is pure RNG garbage. Most of the games are done already in few rounds.

Ehm nope, not really, is this your first deck-builder?

"Deckbuilding cardgame". End of joke.

There is no "building", you just cross your fingers to be able to buy good cards in the tavern. If your opponent take enough good ones and you can't, it's done. Once again : RNG garbage.

Not sure what you are on about, but Deckbuilder is a very common and popular subgenre of board games. ToT is definitely less random than Star Realms, which is the most popular deckbuilder of all times according to BGG (and also very similar to ToT). Still, it is a card game, and each card game inherently has a random element, but in ToT it is fairly minor, I would say much less than other deckbuilders (mostly due to the fact, that the game is slower than Star Realms when it comes to power/cost ratio), and with good play you can mitigate several bad-luck situations.

spartaxoxo

Personofsecrets wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There's a pretty significant difference between trying something new, that's inspired by the old thing. And just tweaking someone else's thing. A new deck builder in the genre might be interesting, Tales of Tribute with some fan's idea of what is good balance is not.

Not really. I play Tales specifically because it is interconnected with ESO.

I might not agree with every balance change, but they have been productive and I find Tales overall more fun than its release state. But, that's entirely subjective.

If it's all subjective preference than how do you know that you wouldn't find some fan's idea of what is best for TOT to end up being very interesting? After all, this fan who you are talking to has documented a number of changes to the game including those of balance and of mechanics that were changed after this fans suggesting. So you are liking TOT more now? You're welcome.

It also may be pertinent to add that designers shamelessly taking parts from the games that they like is so much the industry standard that such dynamics are often talked about in "how to" design games seminars.

Oh, yeah. But, in my experience, taking parts from a game and making something new is generally more interesting than just trying to refine the other game wholesale. The games from indie devs that I have enjoyed have been ones where they branched into something new rather than fan versions of games. I don't think I have played a version of those that I have personally liked. It's not specific to any one person. I don't want to discourage you or anyone else in particular. I have actually liked some of your suggestions. I'm just saying my experience with fan games vs new games.

spartaxoxo

kmfdm wrote: »

BlackRaidho wrote: »

kmfdm wrote: »

BlackRaidho wrote: »

What a joke.
ToT is pure RNG garbage. Most of the games are done already in few rounds.

Ehm nope, not really, is this your first deck-builder?

"Deckbuilding cardgame". End of joke.

There is no "building", you just cross your fingers to be able to buy good cards in the tavern. If your opponent take enough good ones and you can't, it's done. Once again : RNG garbage.

Not sure what you are on about, but Deckbuilder is a very common and popular subgenre of board games. ToT is definitely less random than Star Realms, which is the most popular deckbuilder of all times according to BGG (and also very similar to ToT). Still, it is a card game, and each card game inherently has a random element, but in ToT it is fairly minor, I would say much less than other deckbuilders (mostly due to the fact, that the game is slower than Star Realms when it comes to power/cost ratio), and with good play you can mitigate several bad-luck situations.

Yeah. With some skill there's definitely a lot of situations you can come back from. You can also come back from situations you shouldn't if your opponent is lesser skilled, because they will tend to make mistakes. I have definitely had matches where I'm like "c'mon c'mon don't take that card" lol. And then they don't because they don't even recognize it's the key to my comeback strategy and then I go on to win. An equal skilled or higher skilled opponent shuts that type of thing down every time. I especially notice this in crow users who will let me have certain cards to go for a non-draw purple just because it's purple.

Personofsecrets

spartaxoxo wrote: »

kmfdm wrote: »

BlackRaidho wrote: »

kmfdm wrote: »

BlackRaidho wrote: »

What a joke.
ToT is pure RNG garbage. Most of the games are done already in few rounds.

Ehm nope, not really, is this your first deck-builder?

"Deckbuilding cardgame". End of joke.

There is no "building", you just cross your fingers to be able to buy good cards in the tavern. If your opponent take enough good ones and you can't, it's done. Once again : RNG garbage.

Not sure what you are on about, but Deckbuilder is a very common and popular subgenre of board games. ToT is definitely less random than Star Realms, which is the most popular deckbuilder of all times according to BGG (and also very similar to ToT). Still, it is a card game, and each card game inherently has a random element, but in ToT it is fairly minor, I would say much less than other deckbuilders (mostly due to the fact, that the game is slower than Star Realms when it comes to power/cost ratio), and with good play you can mitigate several bad-luck situations.

Yeah. With some skill there's definitely a lot of situations you can come back from. You can also come back from situations you shouldn't if your opponent is lesser skilled, because they will tend to make mistakes. I have definitely had matches where I'm like "c'mon c'mon don't take that card" lol. And then they don't because they don't even recognize it's the key to my comeback strategy and then I go on to win. An equal skilled or higher skilled opponent shuts that type of thing down every time. I especially notice this in crow users who will let me have certain cards to go for a non-draw purple just because it's purple.

Contrary to what @BlackRaidho is saying, this interplay discussed in the quoted post goes to show how much deck building actually can matter in the game. Although getting a great card on 1st turn is important, finding those synergies that will propell the cards together into forming a strong mid game is too going to win many games.

Being able to just take a glance at the deck/cooldown pile and say "my opponent is trying to do this" or "I'm trying to do this" is super important.

BlackRaidho

It's a big : no.

reazea

Please no more dev time or financial resources into ToT. There are at least 1000 other bugs and balance issues that should take priority over ToT.

Rontabs77

kmfdm wrote: »

Tales of Tribute is easily the best competitive or non-competitive deck builder I've played, and I've played majority of them, including Dominion, Star/Hero Realms, Tyrants of the Underdark, Aeon's End, Shards of Infinity, Rune Age, Legendary Encounters Alien, ... including deck-builder spinoffs like Dune or Lost Ruins of Arnak. With a strong solo campaign mode, I think this game could become very popular on the BGG. If not released as a board game, it could still be released digitally as a standalone game with its own launcher and ranking system, because---even though I have no idea how is it performing compared to internal estimates--it seems that the MMORPG crowd is not and can not be really appreciating this game to the fullest extent; it might just not be the target audience for deckbuilders in general.

Have you tried The Elder Scrolls Legends? It is an amazing standalone TES card game.

Personofsecrets

Rontabs77 wrote: »

kmfdm wrote: »

Tales of Tribute is easily the best competitive or non-competitive deck builder I've played, and I've played majority of them, including Dominion, Star/Hero Realms, Tyrants of the Underdark, Aeon's End, Shards of Infinity, Rune Age, Legendary Encounters Alien, ... including deck-builder spinoffs like Dune or Lost Ruins of Arnak. With a strong solo campaign mode, I think this game could become very popular on the BGG. If not released as a board game, it could still be released digitally as a standalone game with its own launcher and ranking system, because---even though I have no idea how is it performing compared to internal estimates--it seems that the MMORPG crowd is not and can not be really appreciating this game to the fullest extent; it might just not be the target audience for deckbuilders in general.

Have you tried The Elder Scrolls Legends? It is an amazing standalone TES card game.

It is also in sunset mode. Developers also knew about sunsetting a year before it happened and then, without shame, dumped all of their content after a tremendous content draught that rivals what happened after the release of ESO's Northern Craglorn, in that year.

Some of those final card releases redefined the popular metagame in the worst ways possible (invade). Fun fact about invade, the developers eventually came to rebalance invade cards, but were extremly resistant to giving players card crafting currency refunds despite such refunds being an industry standard and despite their aforementioned knowledge of the games development coming to a close. Now players that are still interested in the game create tournaments where they have to ban cards!