Mythic Item effectiveness differences, and preferred alterations to some (hope ZOS replies)

KaironBlackbard

Primarily, make Snow Treaders grant full CCI, becoming immune to snares, knockback, knockdown, pull, stun, while losing your ability to sprint. Also proccing certain CCI procced perks.
Bloodlords is pathetic as of now. Regain magicka from blocking a bloodcursed target, limited to one curse? Either allow multiple cursed targets, or add extra effects. One like bloodcursed takes damage when striking you (when blocked), or they deal less damage to your allies, or a mix thereof. Something to make it more useful, and not dead weight.
I haven't gone through all the Mythics yet, but those two seem lacking.
Some of the others seem lacking or useless as well.
I'll get back to you once I have time to look into them again.

Can't wait to see Mythic Weapons!
One Idea: a shield that doubles the duration of the Ultimate, and maybe all shield skills.
Two-handed might be difficult, considering they are classified as two items when equipped.
Allowing another mythic on alt bar may also be a challenge, though most other sets count the alt bar as not equipped when not active... You know what I mean, yes?

Turtle_Bot

KaironBlackbard wrote: »

Primarily, make Snow Treaders grant full CCI, becoming immune to snares, knockback, knockdown, pull, stun, while losing your ability to sprint. Also proccing certain CCI procced perks.

Just No!

With how trivial it is to obtain group wide movement speed currently to the point that you can match sprint speed while not sprinting, this mythic does not need any sort of buff, let alone one that makes you immune to all forms of CC, not just soft CC.

If anything, this mythic needs a nerf. Make it so that the wearers speed cap is halved to the current base level speed.

If you're unaware, snow treaders are insanely overpowered for group play in PvP as they allow ball groups (currently the uncontested and most overpowered playstyle in PvP) to run through the entire map unhindered. Currently they have to use immovability potions to also be immune to hard CC, imagine if they no longer had to also use those potions but could slot heroism potions for much more frequent ulti dumps and gained all their bonuses from CP etc with it...

KaironBlackbard wrote: »

Bloodlords is pathetic as of now. Regain magicka from blocking a bloodcursed target, limited to one curse? Either allow multiple cursed targets, or add extra effects. One like bloodcursed takes damage when striking you (when blocked), or they deal less damage to your allies, or a mix thereof. Something to make it more useful, and not dead weight.

Bloodlords, I do like the idea of the cursed target taking some form of reflected damage when striking you (and you block the attack). I would not look into increasing its magicka restore or the number of cursed targets, since that can get into permanent (free) block cost with ice staff without much sacrifice (something that caused DK ash cloud spam to be reworked).

KaironBlackbard

I've never been in a zurg where people used Snow Treaders.
I've been playing PvP almost nonstop for this month, though that's not saying much.
I like that speed cap idea, but half is too much.

The point of this was to make a full block build that isn't self immobilized the entire time, without spending 6k stamina every 5 seconds.
(Shield, 7 Heavy, Immovable morph of Unstoppable, Guarded Stance Slotted)
Swap out for champion points instead of Immovable and you're at 90%, if Snow Treaders procced On Guard you'd be at 100.
NonChamp Math: 30% base, 20% Shield, 10% Guarded Stance, 35% Immovable, 7% Heavy = 102%, snared/slowed 100%
Champ: 30% base, 20% shield, 10% Guarded Stance, 20% CP (16% snare/slow), 6% heavy, 4% passive Champ, 10% On Guard (CCI procced) - Just need that at all times
Immagine if you could use the Belt to give 30% to yourself, not just to allies while excluding yourself, that would be fun, then you wouldn't need those other two Champion Perks, but you'd still be immobilized
I was thinking of the damage shield perk, but recently realized it's reduce damage taken not increase damage you block, woulda been cool though, and cheaper, and easier. Cast Guarded Stance for 1.2k instead of Unstoppable for 5k-8k.

Actually, I just realized Unstoppable has the same wordage as Snow Treaders, meaning it shouldn't count as CCI either
Same for some other abilities.
Looking them up on ESO Hub.
Looking at all Nightblade has access to.
Oh that reminds me, you don't need the On Guard as a Dragonknight, because they get a Passive 10% from their class. Also means that even if Snow Treaders procced On Guard, it'd be useless to them for that.
Nightblade CCI Abilities (Most Partial/Soft), and Snow Treaders
Snow Treaders: Snares and Immobilizations, No Sprint
Unstoppable and all morphs: Snares and Immobilizations, 65% Snare (up to 90-100% on Immovable) (6-8 seconds)
Phantasmal Escape (Morph of Blur): Snares and Immobilizations (4 seconds)
Precognition (Morph of Undo): Gain CCI (may require being under CC, unspecified duration)
Race Against TIme (Morph of Accelerate): Snares and Immobilizations (4 seconds)
Unstoppable Potion: Knockback and disabling effects (up to 12 seconds, 45 second cooldown) (doesn't say CCI either)
Break Free: CCI, requires under CC
That is all I can find or think of.
Other classes may have other abilities.
Arcanist also has a block bonus, dependant on their Cruz though. Certain Morphed ability slotted bonus.

If Snow Treaders were CCI at all times, it would hardly hurt much because most people don't use knockback/knockdown. It already makes you immune to Snares and Immobilizations, the main things people use. Scratch that, it's NPCs that use a lot of snares, PvPers use mostly knockbacks.
It kills sprint in combat, which normally about doubles movespeed. An extra Bracing movement penalty might be fine, especially is used in unison with On Guard.
Better Yet: When Snow Treaders + On Guard equipped, -16% movespeed, same penalty as ... Anchored... the anchored CP. The one that gives 20% at -16% movespeed. When using everything in unison, that's -32% movespeed on a 68% bracing speed.
You'd be a snail but an invincible snail that deals no damage to anything.
I've half-achieved this, and my blocking survivability is insane, not perfect yet, but my damage is trash. My best attack is to apply debuffs to enemies and let allies waste them. I am heavily reliant on allies.

Knockback abilities, right, Dragon Knights love their leap, Templars love spear, and Bowmen love the blasting arrow.
I love it when 5 dragon knights all leap at the same time, and you are only affected by a single instance because when the others land you're already out of range because of the first one.
Haven't come across a templar since I got Guarded Stance.
Why doesn't Guarded Stance reflect the Blasting Arrow? It's a ranged attack, it should get reflected.
Reasoning behind that comment is a long story, and happened last week.
A dozen of us against a single Nightblade Bowperson.
My Flare+Shadow Ultimate slowed them, but their speed was maxed and they escaped us every time. They were slowed, but even then they were still faster than us.
Eventually I became their nemesis because I kept appearing and casting flare to try to keep them from cloaking.
That and I went the opposite direction around the walls while everyone else just chased them, so I ran headlong into them several times, to no avail.
They tried over a dozen times to knock me off the wall with their bow, but either they had bad angle or I blocked it, the few times I casted Guarded Stance I was knocked back instead of it reflecting, so I gave up on trying to make that backfire on them. I definitely annoyed them though. And they definitely annoyed my entire team.
Their VolenZurg lost to our Zurg, and they were the last of their team in our fort. They failed to capture our fort even though their team had Volendrung, of course it didn't help their Volen wielder got stuck under the walls somehow.

CameraBeardThePirate

Snow Treaders is already ridiculously powerful. It's absurdly easy to hit well over the average sprint speed in a group without sprinting - fully negating the downside of Snow Treaders. Adding CC immunity would make them easily the best mythic in the game for PvP. 100% uptime on CC immunity is just a laughable suggestion.

KaironBlackbard

By getting both Major and Minor Expedition? Pathetically slow.
It's not like you have a thousand Nightblades to lay a path of Shadow Ultimates on the ground for ya, all the way across the entire map. That's also a waste of Ultimates.

CameraBeardThePirate

KaironBlackbard wrote: »

By getting both Major and Minor Expedition? Pathetically slow.
It's not like you have a thousand Nightblades to lay a path of Shadow Ultimates on the ground for ya, all the way across the entire map. That's also a waste of Ultimates.

Triple swift and Major + Minor expedition is already more speed than most people will have in PvP. In a group that's not really difficult at all to achieve - you just throw Retreating on 1 person.

KaironBlackbard

Using Swift Jewelry? Obviously not a block tank. You NEED Infused Bracing Enchanted Jewelry for this setup to work.

But, on my Xbox Main, I am setup with Swift, and Divines, and Steed, and My Sprint still nearly doubles my speed and turns me invisible (T4 Vamp). Retreating Maneuver hardly amplifies my speed at that point. Still Need to get Ring of Wild Hunt though, see if that makes any difference.
I do feel the speed buff, but it is negligible. If I lose my sprint, however, I'm hardly going anywhere. Sure I'm faster than most people but the difference between my sprint and run is insane. Mounted with Major Gallop and maxed speed training is hardly faster than sprint, but insanely faster than run.

So max speed items nearly matches sprint? Disproven. Losing Sprint is itself a major setback. You also will never outrun your opponents. Been there, done that. Then again, you won't be sprinting anyways if you're trying to keep your shield up.

If you still think it'll be overpowered, I already spend half my time in CCI through constant break frees, when I sacrifice my block to get stuck by CC. This is as my Tank, not as my Xbox Main. Xbox Main prefers shadows and escapes and fast movement. Tank prefers everything hitting him whilst taking minimal damage. Future: no damage through 100% block.

If I can't get Snow Treaders to proc On Guard, I'll have to use Footmans Fortune. Either way I'll reach 100% one way or another.
The possibility is there, I'm gonna take it.
And if I can't use Snow Treaders for it, I'll use Oakensoul instead. My point of this thread was to try to make all Mythics to be a similar power class, instead of having some OP and some Negligible/Useless ones.
Snow Treaders I see as low power compared to Oakensoul, but if it procs On Guard I'd go for it over Oakensoul.
If Bloodlord's had a more feasible use, I might even have gone for it, because it pairs somewhat with a block build. Currently in a very trashy and useless sort of way.
I have not memorized all the Mythics, but there are probably others that I could choose from as well, some may have more power, but most are powerless.
Like the one that reduces your light and heavy by 99%, and increases abilities by 15% against monsters. My light attacks deal twice the damage of Pierce Armor, why would I use that? Plus it doesn't have PvP buffs, only penalties.

KaironBlackbard

Mythic Idea:
Something that allows you to equip a second set of abilities on each bar, merging their slotted bonuses and effects.
Merging their costs, adding them together. Might end up with abilities costing both resources. Same cost type would get insanely high in most cases.
They need to have similar cast types and times and ranges, otherwise using the least range and longest cast time. Must be same target type: Self, Ground, Area, Target, etc.
In some cases adding cast times because of the power of the synchronized abilities.

I should probably put this in its own thread.

notyuu

There are mythics out there that actually need buffing to be useful, the snow treaders and bloodlords embrace are very much not on that list, the ones that however do need some help are as follows, along with some suggested fixes

1: Belhazar's Band - Remove the requirement for the light attacks to be consecutive
2: Dov-Rha Sabatons - Complete rework, maybe make it so you leave a trail of fire/shock/ice damage when sprinting?
3: Lefthander's Aegis Belt - Remove the inability to reproc the sheild while dodgeroll cost debuff is active
4: Shapeshifters Chain - Increase the cost reduce to 30%, increase buffed stats to 2k
5: Syrabanes ward - complete rework, your blocking is 30% less effective but now effects DoTs
6: Thrassian Strnaglers - Reduce the number of stacks needed to get max benefit

Galeriano

KaironBlackbard wrote: »

I've been playing PvP almost nonstop for this month, though that's not saying much.

Play it for a year then we can talk. Belive me after that amount of time You will be looking at Your current idea with a bit of embarrassment asking Yourself "what the hell was I thinking back then".

El_Borracho

Hard no to mythic weapons. That's what arena weapons are for. If you can't get an arena weapon on normal, I don't know what to say. Heck, vMA and vDSA are jokes with an Arcanist and not too much harder with an Oakensorc.

While I am not against mythics, there is still something to be said for requiring someone to play the game to get the best gear. ESO is an MMO, not a giant scavenger hunt. Earning perfected gear through beating a trial or arena is not the same as farming nodes or beating a world boss 20 times to get a mythic lead.

As for improving some of the mythics we have, absolutely on board with that.

KaironBlackbard

Galeriano wrote: »

asking Yourself "what the hell was I thinking back then".

My thought here is to proc On Guard at all times, instead of relying on Premonition or Break Free to do so, and possibly unstoppable potions if those proc it. Due to the abilities having the same effect as Snow Treaders, I doubt they proc it.
Just a more reliable way to proc On Guard.
Do a little math and you'll figure out why. Also, Dragonknights don't need On Guard because they have a passive 10 to block, but Nightblades can't do that without On Guard, or without Immovable morph of unstoppable which takes a lot of stamina and only lasts 5 seconds and locks you in place.
That should be plenty of hints.

KaironBlackbard

El_Borracho wrote: »

Hard no to mythic weapons. That's what arena weapons are for. If you can't get an arena weapon on normal, I don't know what to say. Heck, vMA and vDSA are jokes with an Arcanist and not too much harder with an Oakensorc.

While I am not against mythics, there is still something to be said for requiring someone to play the game to get the best gear. ESO is an MMO, not a giant scavenger hunt. Earning perfected gear through beating a trial or arena is not the same as farming nodes or beating a world boss 20 times to get a mythic lead.

As for improving some of the mythics we have, absolutely on board with that.

Mythic Weapons would give a major bonus to a certain playstyle, due to they are specific weapons after all.
Mythics in general are a major bonus to your effectiveness.
As of now, you can pair Mythic with Weapon Set, and that can make you really OP, but Mythic Weapon would bring the power of the Mythic, but of course would end up limiting you slightly. You'd still have the playstyle type power bonus though.
Such as the Shield Idea, it would make Shield Wall even better, that alone is worth Mythic Class. With the downside of you can't use the other shield weapon sets with it.
Though honestly, as Mythics are now, I'd rather go Mythic, 1 piece of monster, and 2 5 piece sets, and just ignore weapon sets. The only one that would benefit me is the one effecting Puncture / Pierce Armor. Still looking for the one effecting Guarded Stance, if it exists. As far as I know none double the duration of Shield Wall, and that's what the Mythic would do.
I don't use any other shield abilities, so the other weapon sets for that are totally useless to me.
Though, I wouldn't mind the ability to passively cast power bash, by bashing like a heavy attack, probably fixed into the Mythic as well if you think just doubling Shield Wall is underpowered.
Of course, you could request they add a feature that it also counts as part of your equipped weapon set if the weapon set matches its skill line. In that way you could pair the Heal using Puncture with the Mythic and boy you'd be OP then.

Any Weapon Sets dealing with Guarded Stance?

ForumSavant

KaironBlackbard wrote: »

I've never been in a zurg where people used Snow Treaders.


Respectfully, you haven't been playing enough, or with good enough people. Every single good group that does coordinated PvP uses, or would at least attest to treaders being good in group. Granting full CC immunity would be the WORST idea I have ever heard. CC is the only instance in which bigger groups die, if they are unable to be CCed, there would be no viable way to kill them.

Turtle_Bot

KaironBlackbard wrote: »

I've never been in a zurg where people used Snow Treaders.

It's not about zergs of randoms, they don't use snow treaders, they never have.

It's about coordinated groups (referred to as Ball Groups) where the entire group has coordinated setups that give far more damage, healing, mitigation and more, than anything else in the game can get, many of them have no need to slot full damage/mitigation CP and as such, they always have room for CP, traits and abilities that grant movement speed or other utility.

As for needing 1000 NBs, you only need 1 NB using refreshing path (not an ultimate) and/or 1 person in the group with Charging Maneuver that gives the whole group both major and minor expedition.

Also, permanent CCI is just flat out broken. The only way to reliably kill tanks (and large groups or ball groups) is to CC them alongside an organized ulti dump. Giving them permanent CCI would make those groups and tanks literally unkillable to the point that they could have zero movement speed and still be fine.

Finally, I want you to imagine that mythic on a sorc tank. It would not have any counter play to the current iteration of dark exchange (that has burst sustain) giving it unlimited burst sustain and healing and it would be able impossible to lock down since it could cast streak without fear of getting stunned. Even as a sorc main, that sounds ridiculously broken to me.

There's also NB, which would have the same advantage with cloak that couldn't be caught out with CC to lock them down long enough to kill them.

Or DK, with leap and corrosive that could chase you around with corrosive giving you no opportunity to escape from them.

Or the 50k Polar spamming wardens that are already borderline unkillable, they would then have permanent CCI so you couldn't lock them down at all, even with a well timed stun when they get somewhat low.

There's also plar, with purge, and beam, imagine not being able to interrupt plars beam because they have permanent CCI.

Imagine Arcanist, but you cannot interrupt its healing beam (ontop of not being able to interrupt its damage beam) that can also freely cast its massive shields.

Finally necro, I can see it now, the 100k goliaths running around, unable to be killed, even by entire groups.

The only way permanent CCI would be even potentially considered would be if it came with huge drawbacks such as a very low health cap, minimal block mitigation values, speed cap and potentially a cap on damage done forcing the wearer to be super squishy with limited damage potential to make up for permanent CCI. That is how strong that mechanic is and why current CCI comes with huge costs and/or long cooldowns.

Skullstachio

Having a mythic shield by itself wouldn't be too far fetched as it is technically "armor."

El_Borracho

@KaironBlackbard this idea is not a new one. Back when vMA was actually hard, people wanted an alternative to the bow and inferno, as those were BiS for PVE for a long time. Players complained it was "unfair" that they could not get these weapons while others could. vDSA was still there, but the Master's weapons were not in the same class. The response was the same: get better to get the BiS weapons.

With the way builds are set up on ESO, weapons are just different than jewelry or armor. For a mythic weapon to be worthwhile, it would have to be so good, that you would want to forego another strong mythic (like the Amulet or Kilt or Mora's) and an arena weapon to run a full monster set. Or, even worse, the mythic weapon is so good, you can front bar it and back bar an arena weapon, and run two 5-pieces sets full time. And this is just for PVE. I could not imagine what a mythic weapon would do in PVP. People are furious about the Vat ice staff and Master's weapons now.

It would have to be this powerful, otherwise, nobody but completionists would try to get it. A weapon that you can get by picking flowers, beating a dungeon, defeating world bosses, doing dailies, or opening treasure boxes should not be on the same level as any arena weapon, let alone better than every arena weapon.

I wouldn't even make this weapon available to only players who have defeated every arena. It would be game breaking. This isn't Skyrim, where getting Boethia's Ebony Mail made you nearly invincible.

Galeriano

KaironBlackbard wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

asking Yourself "what the hell was I thinking back then".

My thought here is to proc On Guard at all times, instead of relying on Premonition or Break Free to do so, and possibly unstoppable potions if those proc it. Due to the abilities having the same effect as Snow Treaders, I doubt they proc it.
Just a more reliable way to proc On Guard.
Do a little math and you'll figure out why. Also, Dragonknights don't need On Guard because they have a passive 10 to block, but Nightblades can't do that without On Guard, or without Immovable morph of unstoppable which takes a lot of stamina and only lasts 5 seconds and locks you in place.
That should be plenty of hints.

Another comment that in few months will cause You to ask Yourself what were You thinking.

KaironBlackbard

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

CCI comes with huge costs and/or long cooldowns.

Actually it doesn't
The only two reliable ways are Break free, and Precognition while under CC
You can spam Break Free
Still need to test Unstoppable Potions since they don't explicitly say CCI, even though they pretty much cover everything CCI covers
Also, block IS CCI, unless someone's ability is labelled as unblockable.
You are immune to knockback and knockdown while blocking
You even stun foes charging at you when you block them, though that one's mostly NPCs. I have yet to see a player ability like that.
The only times I can be struck by CC are when I let my guard down, such as when using Lotus Fan.
Well, snares seem to hit me anyways, but stuns, knockdowns, knockbacks, and pulls I have blocked.

Basic Abilities have the same label for CCI as Snow Treaders does. Since you keep saying it doesn't do CCI, then basic resource abilities don't do CCI either, and therefore you can't say CCI has High Cost.

KaironBlackbard

And in Block already being CCI, plus Snow giving immunity to snares, it should proc On Guard because you have ALL the elements of CCI, even if from multiple sources. If should track it as 100%+ of elements CCI = CCI, not 150% still not count as CCI. That was probably confusing... I'm not very good at explanations obviously.

CCI Elements
Fears, Stuns, Knockdown, Knockback, Pull = blockable (unless ability is labelled as Unblockable)
Snares and Immobilizations = Snow Treaders
Am I missing anything? Or is that full CCI?
In this sense, blocking with Snow Treaders should proc On Guard, because you technically have full CCI at that time.