Magicka Arcanist Problems

WrathOfInnos

Since the class release, most players have gravitated toward Stamina for Arcanist. I’ve been attempting to make a decent Magicka Arcanist alternative, but have found some serious issues with the toolkit.

Cephaliarc’s Flail: This skill has become the go-to spammable for both Mag and Stam Arcs. This is because it builds crux, has versatility (single target or AoE, built in execute), and will always be slotted for the damage debuff. However, unlike Runeblades and Fatecarver, Flail does not dynamically select your highest resource, and always costs stamina. The other morph is not an option because it consumes crux instead of building it.

Runeblades: This skill is just too weak. Every time I attempt to slot it, damage decreases. Arcanists do not have much time for spammables in their rotation, and dropping a good DoT or passive is a net loss.

Fulminating Rune: This skill costs your lowest resource. This is excellent for Stam Arc, since it allows them to tap into their underused Magicka pool. However it is terrible for Mag Arc, since their small Stamina pool is already strained for Ceph Flail, Barbed Trap, and Blade Cloak. Forget about using a 2h or bow build, Stamina sustain is near impossible without adding Hail, Stampede or Carve.

In any content that requires dodging or blocking, Mag Arcanist is either dead, or spamming dagger heavy attacks for stamina. And heavy attacks are particularly bad because they do near zero damage with the Velothi Amulet.

I believe the solution is:
- Buff Runeblades enough to justify a bar slot. Maybe this is more damage or a unique buff for slotting. 3% damage like Mystic Siphon would be enough, or some crit chance to be unique. Or another possibility is to let Runeblades generate 2 Crux per cast, allowing more beams.
- Make Cephaliarc’s Flail cost highest resource. Even if we start using Runeblades for a single target spammable, Mag Arc needs an AoE skill to build crux on trash. Pulsar does not work with the crux system.
- Change Fulminating Rune to Magicka cost on all builds. This would not affect stamina Arcanist at all, but would balance Mag Arc’s sustain much better.

Mr_Jord_Joe

A big problem I see in the arcanist is the practically total dependence on the class skills, especially those that generate crux, you cannot use any other spamable to generate crux quickly enough for something, I would like crux to benefit in some way at least, the skills of weapons for example, I don't know if this crux system was a good idea after all, I don't like the ultimate in the healing skill tree too, I think there's very little for so much cost in the skill, there are some things that still seem inconsistent to me...

Edit: And i like to see the skill "fulminating rune" the morph of pull, a real AOE skill with a small direct damage to be viable to arcanist use some proc tank sets.

Zodiarkslayer

@WrathOfInnos
While I cannot disagree with you, I still feel obligated to point out that this is complaining on a very high level.
Yes, compared to the Stamina Arcanist the MagArc falls a little behind in damage and off ressource sustain.
But compared to all other classes and builds we have a very different picture. I think MagArc is second only to DK on the magicka side of things. It is clearly ahead of NB, Sorcerer, Warden Templar and Necro.

And we are only talking about Trial DPS here, right?
I find my MagArc is more than adequate in SOLO content and everything up to normal trials.
The toolkit is versatile and gets me through any kind of challenge.

OtarTheMad

While I don’t disagree that Magicka Arcanist has some holes I don’t think any of them need to be adjusted really. I use Runeblades and they are just fine, I get enough dps to do anything I’d like to do in the game so I am happy. In fact out of all the classes, for me, I get highest number on Arcanist so I’d rather they stay untouched lol.

WrathOfInnos

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

@WrathOfInnos
While I cannot disagree with you, I still feel obligated to point out that this is complaining on a very high level.
Yes, compared to the Stamina Arcanist the MagArc falls a little behind in damage and off ressource sustain.
But compared to all other classes and builds we have a very different picture. I think MagArc is second only to DK on the magicka side of things. It is clearly ahead of NB, Sorcerer, Warden Templar and Necro.

And we are only talking about Trial DPS here, right?
I find my MagArc is more than adequate in SOLO content and everything up to normal trials.
The toolkit is versatile and gets me through any kind of challenge.

Yes, primarily talking about high end DPS in group content. These same issues apply to solo content, and in some ways are worse. Without a tank taunting enemies, solo players are forced to block, dodge and bash more. Solo content is also more favorable to light armor builds for the penetration, but this makes the stamina sustain issue even worse. At least in group content Mag Arcanists wear 4-6 piece of medium armor (still not enough to sustain their stamina drain).

I agree that Sorcerer, Warden, Necro and Nightblade have some problems of their own. IMO Templar is in a pretty good spot, both Magplar and Stamplar are close to Stam Arc and Dragonknight for single target damage.

Arcanist just stands out to me as the class with the largest gap between the Magicka and Stamina ceiling. It also seems like an easy one to fix with a few minor changes.

DocFrost72

I like where you're coming from and largely agree, but two of the proposed things I might offer pushback on.

2 crux on runeblades I worry might offer too-easy access to burst in pvp, where the counterplay is the windup time and the fact that beam is tough to use in some situations.

Flail is very, VERY overtuned. It has: An execute, a 5% unique damage buff, strong aoe damage, AND a root (which can help your entire group benefit from CP and dw passives might I add).

I think it's too strong on stam, not too weak on magicka. My suggestion would be to remove the 5% unique buff and replace it with minor vuln (like lotus fan/fetcherflies). That'd go a long way to reducing its power at the highest end where groups are exceptionally coordinated without affecting solo or pvp. Then, having it as a magicka/stamina spammable is fine AND makes the other morph choice interesting. Not must take, but worth consideration.

That said yeah, let me whip people on my poor magicka arcanist

WrathOfInnos

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I like where you're coming from and largely agree, but two of the proposed things I might offer pushback on.

2 crux on runeblades I worry might offer too-easy access to burst in pvp, where the counterplay is the windup time and the fact that beam is tough to use in some situations.

Flail is very, VERY overtuned. It has: An execute, a 5% unique damage buff, strong aoe damage, AND a root (which can help your entire group benefit from CP and dw passives might I add).

I think it's too strong on stam, not too weak on magicka. My suggestion would be to remove the 5% unique buff and replace it with minor vuln (like lotus fan/fetcherflies). That'd go a long way to reducing its power at the highest end where groups are exceptionally coordinated without affecting solo or pvp. Then, having it as a magicka/stamina spammable is fine AND makes the other morph choice interesting. Not must take, but worth consideration.

That said yeah, let me whip people on my poor magicka arcanist

Fair points. I haven’t spent much time in PVP on Arcanist. What is their burst combo? Beam doesn’t seem terribly effective against mobile players, or anyone with a decent heal. Would the concern be quick combos of Runeblades + Tentacular Dread? I’m not too set on the 2 crux idea, I just think Runeblades needs something more.

As for Ceph Flail being overloaded, I’d say drop the Immobilize. Interesting idea about making it into Minor Vuln, but that would be a straight 5% damage loss for Arcanist in group content, which Mag Arc certainly does not deserve. That also could be too strong on Arcanist support in PVE, which already brings a lot of great buffs and debuffs.

They could make Ceph Flail give Minor Berserk, but this would also just be a 5% nerf in any content where you have Camo Hunter or Combat Prayer. What if it gave Minor Slayer for a named 5% damage buff? That would open up PVE Arcanists to pair 2 non-trial sets (like Azureblight + Deadly). However it would give nothing in PVP, so could end up too weak there.

tsaescishoeshiner

I generally agree with the OP, but I would add that Tentacular Dread (the magicka morph of Abyssal Impact/Ceph. Flail) could be buffed majorly. It's currently a crux-spending skill that doesn't deal as much damage as Fatecarver. If it dealt more damage, or if the damage debuff was increased, or it gave sustain or buffs, then magicka arcanists would have an extra tool.

WrathOfInnos

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

I generally agree with the OP, but I would add that Tentacular Dread (the magicka morph of Abyssal Impact/Ceph. Flail) could be buffed majorly. It's currently a crux-spending skill that doesn't deal as much damage as Fatecarver. If it dealt more damage, or if the damage debuff was increased, or it gave sustain or buffs, then magicka arcanists would have an extra tool.

That is also an interesting idea. With Tentacular Dread being a crux spender, this leads to very different gameplay with few or no beams. That would give a clear difference between the feel of mag and stam Arcanist, and personally I would enjoy the one that doesn’t involve 5 seconds of doing nothing every 10s.

Making Tentacular Dread a good option goes along with improving Runeblades, since a crux-building spammable is necessary, and that cannot be Ceph Flail.

MudcrabAttack

While it’s true that they could have moved costs of skills around to something far better for magic oriented builds, perhaps this problem wouldn’t be so bad if there were better ways to build up regeneration of the off-resource.

You could take away a relatively big power buff from jewelry enchantments and slot regen or cost reduction, but who wants to do a thing like that? Or play a bosmer or Redguard, but that’s a 6% damage loss, and High elf seems to be the best at regaining off-resource.

I’d really like to see something extra for Breton, Wood Elf and Redguard that addresses their complete lack of hybrid build applications. Either buff the regeneration further and make it hybrid (stam regen + mag regen), or increase their max resource buff and make it hybrid (max stam + max magic), or some of both without reducing their power

Regeneration of the primary resource has been the least of my concerns in PVE lately. I have to turn off my wood elf regen on both Arcanist and Nightblade because I want to effectively use Coral Riptide. My stamina Arcanist still has to hold block while casting skills to drop stamina further. My stamblade has to go further and turn off the “Executioner” passive to drop stamina, while chugging cheap magic potions lately just to keep up with all the BIS magic skills. My wood elves have to tie both arms behind their backs just to function properly with coral riptide, it’s all completely backwards anyway, so why not go the extra 180 degrees. Sorry if it got off topic, but I wonder how the wood elf Arcanist would do as a mage because I always have too much stamina for my build

WrathOfInnos

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

While it’s true that they could have moved costs of skills around to something far better for magic oriented builds, perhaps this problem wouldn’t be so bad if there were better ways to build up regeneration of the off-resource.

You could take away a relatively big power buff from jewelry enchantments and slot regen or cost reduction, but who wants to do a thing like that? Or play a bosmer or Redguard, but that’s a 6% damage loss, and High elf seems to be the best at regaining off-resource.

I’d really like to see something extra for Breton, Wood Elf and Redguard that addresses their complete lack of hybrid build applications. Either buff the regeneration further and make it hybrid (stam regen + mag regen), or increase their max resource buff and make it hybrid (max stam + max magic), or some of both without reducing their power

Regeneration of the primary resource has been the least of my concerns in PVE lately. I have to turn off my wood elf regen on both Arcanist and Nightblade because I want to effectively use Coral Riptide. My stamina Arcanist still has to hold block while casting skills to drop stamina further. My stamblade has to go further and turn off the “Executioner” passive to drop stamina, while chugging cheap magic potions lately just to keep up with all the BIS magic skills. My wood elves have to tie both arms behind their backs just to function properly with coral riptide, it’s all completely backwards anyway, so why not go the extra 180 degrees. Sorry if it got off topic, but I wonder how the wood elf Arcanist would do as a mage because I always have too much stamina for my build

Yes, racial passives absolutely contribute to this issue. My main Arcanist is Dunmer and built for max stamina, as are most Arcanists I know. This is by far the strongest option, and the one chosen by most Arcanists I know. Maybe it was intended to create a sea of Dunmer Arcanists in the Telvanni Peninsula chapter?

As you mention, Dunmer is even further ahead of other races if the Arcanist is using Coral Riptide, where sustain races can become detrimental. I personally avoid riptide because the small damage benefit is rarely enough to justify the risk of being unable to dodge or break free when needed.

My second Arcanist is Altmer, for exactly the reasons you mentioned. Altmer is the top DPS race for any build stacking max magicka, and happens to have good stamina sustain. It also gets a useful passive for reduced damage taken while beaming, reducing the risk of one-shots during Fatecarver when blocking is not possible. Unfortunately the ~100 stamina per second is not nearly enough to make up for the high stamina drain on any Arcanist build.

The Crunchy Spider Skewer food is a good option for dummy parsing, providing the combination of Max Magicka and Stamina Recovery. However, it does not give any health, and is therefore not a viable option in more difficult content. This particular food exaggerates the potential of Mag Arcanist, where is realistic scenarios it is even further behind than parses show.

The sustain races don’t seem to help the Mag Arcanist. Breton can build for Max Mag, but misses out on a lot of damage from lacking 258 Spell Damage, and their sustain passive has no impact on the stamina issue.

Wood Elf and Redguard can certainly sustain stamina better than other races, but they also suffer from no damage bonus. For both of these, there is simply no reason to stack max Magicka, they get a max stamina bonus and all of the 64 attribute points and armor enchants should be stamina to match. I’d say both can make a mediocre Stam Arc, but they make a terrible Mag Arc given the missing 2k primary resource and 258 spell damage. I’d also put Imperial in this same category, with a small sustain passive and some max stamina to help Stam Arc, but severely lacking in damage on Mag Arc.

rabidmyers

i use tentacular dread and beam just fine on my arcanist, it's really not so bad having 2 crux consumers. also can do more damage with beam and in general as well.

usually don't bother with the tent dread in trash fights and usually use it at least once for the debuff. i always 3 crux cast it tho during boss fights because beam be melting with the extra damage

just because it consumes crux most certainly doesn't rule it out as an option

as for the buff to runeblades i don't think that is necessary because they honestly do a lot of damage than other spammables at least that i have seen from it. and besides the buffs you ask for is already apart of each of the morphs, unless you are speaking of general terms of course which i assume you are. fulminating rune isn't a problem for me because i do not use trap or cloak and i don't use dw

WrathOfInnos

rabidmyers wrote: »

i use tentacular dread and beam just fine on my arcanist, it's really not so bad having 2 crux consumers. also can do more damage with beam and in general as well.

usually don't bother with the tent dread in trash fights and usually use it at least once for the debuff. i always 3 crux cast it tho during boss fights because beam be melting with the extra damage

just because it consumes crux most certainly doesn't rule it out as an option

as for the buff to runeblades i don't think that is necessary because they honestly do a lot of damage than other spammables at least that i have seen from it. and besides the buffs you ask for is already apart of each of the morphs, unless you are speaking of general terms of course which i assume you are. fulminating rune isn't a problem for me because i do not use trap or cloak and i don't use dw

Yes, it is possible to make a build that avoids all of the issues I listed above. However, every detail of that build means giving up more damage. Do you have any trial parses with that setup for comparison?

I have not been able to achieve, or seen anyone else achieve, anything close to competitive damage on a Runeblades/Dread build. It’s more fun to play, and works fine for overland and some dungeons, but the DPS is low. Hoping to be proven wrong here.

kojou

I get around the sustain issue by running Crunchy Spider Skewer (Max Magicka + Stamina Regen), Tri Stat potions, and making enough of my armor pieces tri stat until I have an amount of health I feel comfortable with. I lose a little bit of max magicka, but I can sustain Flail for 2 casts per rotation (I get the first crux from Inspired Scholarship).

I haven't found that running lower health on an Arcanist is that big of a deal since Pragmatic Runecarver gives such a big shield. You can make it even bigger by using Bastion on the red CP tree which also gives you more damage to shielded targets (you would be surprised how many times there are shielded targets that you will nuke with that slotted).

It may not be top DPS on the dummy, but it is good enough DPS to meet standards for any trial group I care to run with, and works really well in actual content.

olsborg

Be very careful, arcanist, both stam and mag is very strong in pvp

WrathOfInnos

kojou wrote: »

I get around the sustain issue by running Crunchy Spider Skewer (Max Magicka + Stamina Regen), Tri Stat potions, and making enough of my armor pieces tri stat until I have an amount of health I feel comfortable with. I lose a little bit of max magicka, but I can sustain Flail for 2 casts per rotation (I get the first crux from Inspired Scholarship).

I haven't found that running lower health on an Arcanist is that big of a deal since Pragmatic Runecarver gives such a big shield. You can make it even bigger by using Bastion on the red CP tree which also gives you more damage to shielded targets (you would be surprised how many times there are shielded targets that you will nuke with that slotted).

It may not be top DPS on the dummy, but it is good enough DPS to meet standards for any trial group I care to run with, and works really well in actual content.

Agreed that tri-stat potions or at least stam + mag are essential. Using tri-stat armor enchants is clever, but this plan leaves you with a smaller stamina pool than someone using Sugar Skulls with full Magicka enchants. It’s too easy to get caught with back to back break free or dodge mechanics after casting a couple stamina skills and die to something like enthralling matrons.

I’m not a big fan of Pragmatic for damage, IMO that is more of a PvP morph. I could see it being used to make some trifectas easy, but it’s not the damage morph.

My trials standards are probably too high for most, but that is where differences in the ceiling of DPS builds stand out. For example, my group pulled off a 2:02 Reef Guardian HM (3 hearts) last weekend. No Magicka Arcanist pulling 20k lower than all the Stam builds is going to be welcome for runs like that. We allow Templars to be Mag or Stam, since they are both well balanced. Dragonknights can be Mag or Stam, as can Necromancers and Sorcerers. Arcanist is the unique exception, where one build is competitive and the other is far behind.

SandandStars

The zos combat dev team doesnt really do viable magicka builds that can be played at range for pvp.

Look at magden trying to hit someone with cliff racers

A magsorc trying to spam crystal frags

A templar lobbing a solar flare

All hot garbage compared to 2h or dw stam skills

This is why runeblades will never do damage, and fatecarver will never hit anyone for more than a split second.

Ive tried a magicka arcanist build too, cause I like theorycrafting challenges. So far my magicka arcanist builds suck against the usual suspects.

LittlePinkDot

SandandStars wrote: »

The zos combat dev team doesnt really do viable magicka builds that can be played at range for pvp.

Look at magden trying to hit someone with cliff racers

A magsorc trying to spam crystal frags

A templar lobbing a solar flare

All hot garbage compared to 2h or dw stam skills

This is why runeblades will never do damage, and fatecarver will never hit anyone for more than a split second.

Ive tried a magicka arcanist build too, cause I like theorycrafting challenges. So far my magicka arcanist builds suck against the usual suspects.

I've found that the best pve magicka Arcanist build is tank. Really fun too.

FYI I find hitting people with cliff racer easier than wrecking blow 😅

WrathOfInnos

SandandStars wrote: »

The zos combat dev team doesnt really do viable magicka builds that can be played at range for pvp.

Look at magden trying to hit someone with cliff racers

A magsorc trying to spam crystal frags

A templar lobbing a solar flare

All hot garbage compared to 2h or dw stam skills

This is why runeblades will never do damage, and fatecarver will never hit anyone for more than a split second.

Ive tried a magicka arcanist build too, cause I like theorycrafting challenges. So far my magicka arcanist builds suck against the usual suspects.

You’re not wrong. I think this is actually a good thing when it comes to Arcanist balance. Fatecarver can be strong in PVE, without causing problems in PVP. Arcanist has a strong stun in PVP that doesn’t help them much in PVE.

Maybe Runeblades will remain as useless as Dark Flare and Cliff Racer. Stamina Arcanist is fine without it, we would just need a melee Magicka spammable that builds crux instead of consuming it. Dynamic resource drain on Ceph Flail would be the easiest solution, but it could also be something more creative to make Stam and Mag Arc feel different.

katorga

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

The zos combat dev team doesnt really do viable magicka builds that can be played at range for pvp.

Look at magden trying to hit someone with cliff racers

A magsorc trying to spam crystal frags

A templar lobbing a solar flare

All hot garbage compared to 2h or dw stam skills

This is why runeblades will never do damage, and fatecarver will never hit anyone for more than a split second.

Ive tried a magicka arcanist build too, cause I like theorycrafting challenges. So far my magicka arcanist builds suck against the usual suspects.

Dynamic resource drain on Ceph Flail would be the easiest solution, but it could also be something more creative to make Stam and Mag Arc feel different.

I don't like class skills that use "highest resource", they don't allow me to split my skill costs between two pools to double my regen/resource. So I sort of like that Ceph Flail uses stam on my mag arcanist.

Alharion

The class is clearly killing off PVP no CP at the moment, [snip]

[edited for bashing]

WrathOfInnos

katorga wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

The zos combat dev team doesnt really do viable magicka builds that can be played at range for pvp.

Look at magden trying to hit someone with cliff racers

A magsorc trying to spam crystal frags

A templar lobbing a solar flare

All hot garbage compared to 2h or dw stam skills

This is why runeblades will never do damage, and fatecarver will never hit anyone for more than a split second.

Ive tried a magicka arcanist build too, cause I like theorycrafting challenges. So far my magicka arcanist builds suck against the usual suspects.

Dynamic resource drain on Ceph Flail would be the easiest solution, but it could also be something more creative to make Stam and Mag Arc feel different.

I don't like class skills that use "highest resource", they don't allow me to split my skill costs between two pools to double my regen/resource. So I sort of like that Ceph Flail uses stam on my mag arcanist.

I also like splitting skill costs between resources, but not for the main spammable. No Magicka Arcanist has enough stamina to spam Ceph Flail, along with other stamina skills, and still block/dodge/break free.

This is also why Fulminating Rune’s stamina cost is so frustrating. It consumes the off-resource along with flail, and Deadly Cloak, and Barbed Trap.

I know Magicka Arcanist does not have to build this way, they could slot Soul Trap and Destructive Reach instead, then use Runeblades as a spammable and have no stamina issues at all. The problem is that all of this comes at a steep DPS cost. In other words, when Arcanist is played most effectively, Magicka builds have serious issues with Stamina sustain due to the costs of crucial class skills.

nesmewno

I spam Flails on mana arcaniste. sloth build with oaken +vDeadly + VO.
Good work with destro shock and dual dagger

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=571463

bar_boss_A

Nerfing the potency of the beam would open up the arcanist class for more competitive build choices. There will always be one type (mag or stam) to work better with the beam completely overshadowing the other type. You need a different playstyle to make mag relevant.

On a side note the beam replaced HA-Builds in its functionality and complexity with a way higher damage ceiling. These two should be in line with each other.

Zodiarkslayer

bar_boss_A wrote: »

... On a side note the beam replaced HA-Builds in its functionality and complexity with a way higher damage ceiling. ...

Yes...

bar_boss_A wrote: »

... These two should be in line with each other.

No!

SandandStars

Arcanist beam is crap in pvp. All the Arcanists I see in bgs are built super tanky and rely on masters dw & vatesh staff for damage.

Same old brainless tanky/proc build. One poke w/rending slashes
One poke w/vatesh
Spam shields and wait