Stop Complaining about DPS running ahead of Tanks!

ElderSmitter

I mean seriously. Reading all these Fake Tank Threads somehow turn into a DPS complain session. I am a Tank and a DPS CP 2960 and can tell you if DPS is running that far ahead of a Tank than the Tank is moving too slow. Yes i am experienced at Tanking so maybe things just go more smoothly but 100% Most Tanks move like a snail. SPEED UP! Use a piece of Swift Jewelry. Good Tanks do more than just Taunt. They keep the group moving and Organized as many DPS and Healers have buffs they want to keep up. Nothing is more annoying than a Tank that stops before every trash pull letting everyone's buffs run out. Stopping before a Boss is different. Fluidity is everything in Tanking. Have 2 taunts a ranged on one bar and Pierce Armor on your main bar for instance so when you're running into a mob you can already start taunting before you even get there. Let DPS do their Job and the only way DPS can do their Job is by YOU (The Tank) staying ahead of the Pack! One of my Main Complaints after Fake Tanks is Slow Real Tanks... Cheers!

CrashTest

Can't wait for the new group finder with the "Speed" option.

NeuroticPixels

Slow tanks can be bothersome. But, if you don’t have the capacity to have patience and/or respect of everyone’s role in a group dungeon, then don’t queue random. Find like-minded individuals to play with instead of causing disorder in the slower-than-you-would-like group. Or, find a nice single player game that suits you. 🤷‍♀️

svendf

I am 100% that issue here is no patience and/or respect of everyone’s role and learning. That said OP. You can be a tank all night long. This is not a bait or anything - if you can´t see it´s wrong, then Im sorry.

You will be fine in a premade, Im sure

Carcamongus

Right, because dungeons are supposed to be played like a race. Why would I wear swift jewelry, which isn't the ideal trait, just to catch up with a Sonic wannabe? Where's the "fluidity" when I have to run and taunt in an attempt to keep mobs away from the other players also struggling to catch up? Who said a single Speedy Gonzales DPS gets to set the dungeon's pace? Make no mistake, I don't stop to take screenshots of the scenery. However, a tank's job is to divert damage from the other players and, if possible, buff them. It certainly isn't trying to outrun an impatient player with no regard for the rest of the group.

boi_anachronism_

Lol why the heck am i gonna bother making additional sets of jewlery for dumb dps because that cant go at a normal pace and get themselves killed. I already go at a solid pace. I gotta buff before a fight too. Im not gonna sacrifice a 5 piece or a monster helm for ring of the wild hunt or something else stupid. I have an expansive collection of tank gear, its expensive to build and i have multiple other toons. Thats a ton of transmutes. Im not making more to appease randos. I run celarity. Thats plenty. On top of that i throw down so many buffs and debuffs that the speed of boss kill more then makes up for the running time. This is just another reason to run with your own crew.

spartaxoxo

I agree. Everyone in group finder should be moving as fast as possible without sacrificing their ability to do their job. I don't know about speed jewelry but a ranged taunt is part of a good tanks arsenal.

Araneae6537

ElderSmitter88 wrote: »

I mean seriously. Reading all these Fake Tank Threads somehow turn into a DPS complain session. I am a Tank and a DPS CP 2960 and can tell you if DPS is running that far ahead of a Tank than the Tank is moving too slow. Yes i am experienced at Tanking so maybe things just go more smoothly but 100% Most Tanks move like a snail. SPEED UP! Use a piece of Swift Jewelry. Good Tanks do more than just Taunt. They keep the group moving and Organized as many DPS and Healers have buffs they want to keep up. Nothing is more annoying than a Tank that stops before every trash pull letting everyone's buffs run out. Stopping before a Boss is different. Fluidity is everything in Tanking. Have 2 taunts a ranged on one bar and Pierce Armor on your main bar for instance so when you're running into a mob you can already start taunting before you even get there. Let DPS do their Job and the only way DPS can do their Job is by YOU (The Tank) staying ahead of the Pack! One of my Main Complaints after Fake Tanks is Slow Real Tanks... Cheers!

I respect your dedication to and accommodation for your group, but I don’t think that a tank should have to gear for speed just to keep up with impatient DPS. I mean, not stopping before each encounter is one thing and an understandable expectation, but I still think that the tank rightfully sets the pace and the DPS should not run ahead, or else it is on them if they get aggro and the enemies are not nicely stacked for them.

For perspective, I main a healer and I try to always make my primary goal keeping pace with and supporting the tank, then the DPS. When I do tank, I do try to keep a decent pace (unless someone has said they need to pause for a quest, etc.) but I won’t race to save overeager DPS from themselves, and if someone is really making a mess of a run, I will politely request a change in behavior, but if it continues, either kick or leave myself, depending on the view of the rest of the group.

tsaescishoeshiner

I don't think any one person in a dungeon should try to determine the speed for everyone else. Some people do queue content not as if they're part of a group, but despite their group.

Unless I'm misunderstanding the point here, I don't think that tanks should have to race DPS or else DPS will pull ahead of them lol. That just seems a little inconsiderate and un-group-like to do.

Personally, I love when DPS run ahead of the tank and then just die and have to wait out the encounter. I never rez them unless it' really a fight you need two DPS for.

LokiPagan

Putting swift trait on your jewelry and turning it into a two man race where you're trying to get to the final boss in three minutes is just going to make the normal players leave after they get killed by the mobs you leave behind. But hey, at least your two person Sonic party can run circles around the boss!

Aorys

oakensorc tank-healer-dps mindset it looks like

Soarora

I am a very fast tank outside of combat, often being able to run ahead of group members. That doesn't stop people from pulling before I'm ready if they themselves have built for even more speed (probably to their detriment if I'm faster than most people...) or are otherwise so impatient they can't wait 4 seconds for me to group the trash or 2 seconds for me to pull the boss.

Edit: I often do feel like I have to sprint to get ahead of DPS just so they won't pull before me. Makes me feel bad for any other group members left behind but it's to save myself the anger.

Amottica

ElderSmitter88 wrote: »

I am a Tank and a DPS CP 2960 and can tell you if DPS is running that far ahead of a Tank than the Tank is moving too slow.

While I respect your opinion and the right to air it, this is not always the case.

Case in point, many players kill the trash mobs with some pulling multiple groups together for a more efficient killing of those mobs.

If the tank is checking their gear, replying to messages in Discord, or looking into their bag to see the drops they got, yes, they are moving to slow.

Then some players who run through the trash mobs and disregard the rest of the group. That is the type of player who players complain about and it would be incorrect to suggest the tank is moving too slowly in such cases.

Another great point, long ago before I no longer needed to use the GF to get a group (and was tanking) there was a player unfamiliar with the fights. It was made clear at the start and I noted I would explain the mechs of each boss. One lower CP DPS would start the boss fights immediately. After the first boss, I asked him to wait up so I could explain to the newer player.
On the second fight he pulled I told the rest to let him be so we could let him die and learn from his mistakes.

Of course, he raged and then we taught him another lesson when we voted to kick him out for disregarding the rest of the group. The rest of the run was fabulous and their rage whispers were entertaining.

ElderSmitter

Carcamongus wrote: »

Right, because dungeons are supposed to be played like a race. Why would I wear swift jewelry, which isn't the ideal trait, just to catch up with a Sonic wannabe? Where's the "fluidity" when I have to run and taunt in an attempt to keep mobs away from the other players also struggling to catch up? Who said a single Speedy Gonzales DPS gets to set the dungeon's pace? Make no mistake, I don't stop to take screenshots of the scenery. However, a tank's job is to divert damage from the other players and, if possible, buff them. It certainly isn't trying to outrun an impatient player with no regard for the rest of the group.

A Piece of Swift Jewelry on a Tank is Ideal for almost all Content. 99%+ I have been in all Vet Situations and Most Trials... A slow in the Mud Tank does no one any good. Also moving Swiftly (No pun intended lol) Through content does not make it a race. I am not talking about an Outlier DPS who is running past adds etc etc. There is always an Outlier. I am talking about competent DPS who are doing their Job and mowing through a dungeon which as a Tank i appreciate good DPS when i get it. I run all Vet Content as my Tank so Normal dungeons is not what i am commenting on. Too many times when i am running with my DPS the Tank is holding us up. Speed up!

AcadianPaladin

Yup, insist that the tank sprint to stay ahead so when he reaches the boss, his stamina is low. Sounds like a good plan to me.

Going at whatever speed the tank wants to go and not pulling before the tank does is a small price to pay for having a real tank.

When I pug, it is as a real healer. I will always focus on the tank and whatever pace they set. And I throw stam shards on their head after and before each fight to keep their block mojo up.

ElderSmitter

Amottica wrote: »

ElderSmitter88 wrote: »

I am a Tank and a DPS CP 2960 and can tell you if DPS is running that far ahead of a Tank than the Tank is moving too slow.

While I respect your opinion and the right to air it, this is not always the case.

Case in point, many players kill the trash mobs with some pulling multiple groups together for a more efficient killing of those mobs.

If the tank is checking their gear, replying to messages in Discord, or looking into their bag to see the drops they got, yes, they are moving to slow.

Then some players who run through the trash mobs and disregard the rest of the group. That is the type of player who players complain about and it would be incorrect to suggest the tank is moving too slowly in such cases.

Another great point, long ago before I no longer needed to use the GF to get a group (and was tanking) there was a player unfamiliar with the fights. It was made clear at the start and I noted I would explain the mechs of each boss. One lower CP DPS would start the boss fights immediately. After the first boss, I asked him to wait up so I could explain to the newer player.
On the second fight he pulled I told the rest to let him be so we could let him die and learn from his mistakes.

Of course, he raged and then we taught him another lesson when we voted to kick him out for disregarding the rest of the group. The rest of the run was fabulous and their rage whispers were entertaining.

Maybe i should have Worded my Post better. I am not talking about an Outlier DPS who runs way ahead skipping trash etc etc. I am also not talking about a green behind the ears dps who pulls a boss and dies. They deserve it. I am strictly talking about the fluidity of running a Vet Dungeon. Good DPS and Good Tanks Do not go Slow. It is just a fact and maybe some here have never run a Vet Dungeon in such a manner. Also, the Tanks here complaining they would never wear a piece of Swift Jewelry Probably are the same ones who have 8 pieces of Sturdy Trait Armor. Being a Tank, you need to be able to Adapt to the group. Period! Same as a DPS needs to Adapt with Food and Potions etc etc...

ElderSmitter

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Yup, insist that the tank sprint to stay ahead so when he reaches the boss, his stamina is low. Sounds like a good plan to me.

Going at whatever speed the tank wants to go and not pulling before the tank does is a small price to pay for having a real tank.

When I pug, it is as a real healer. I will always focus on the tank and whatever pace they set. And I throw stam shards on their head after and before each fight to keep their block mojo up.

You're a Good Healer for looking out for the Tank. I am a Stamina based Tank and can self-heal very easily. A Simple HA brings back a plethora of Stamina, so resources aren't an issue very often. I Prefer Healers especially in Vet dungeons focus on the DPS vs the Tank though as a Tank should not need the healer except in extreme situations or a specific Mechanic.

boi_anachronism_

ElderSmitter88 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

ElderSmitter88 wrote: »

I am a Tank and a DPS CP 2960 and can tell you if DPS is running that far ahead of a Tank than the Tank is moving too slow.

While I respect your opinion and the right to air it, this is not always the case.

Case in point, many players kill the trash mobs with some pulling multiple groups together for a more efficient killing of those mobs.

If the tank is checking their gear, replying to messages in Discord, or looking into their bag to see the drops they got, yes, they are moving to slow.

Then some players who run through the trash mobs and disregard the rest of the group. That is the type of player who players complain about and it would be incorrect to suggest the tank is moving too slowly in such cases.

Another great point, long ago before I no longer needed to use the GF to get a group (and was tanking) there was a player unfamiliar with the fights. It was made clear at the start and I noted I would explain the mechs of each boss. One lower CP DPS would start the boss fights immediately. After the first boss, I asked him to wait up so I could explain to the newer player.
On the second fight he pulled I told the rest to let him be so we could let him die and learn from his mistakes.

Of course, he raged and then we taught him another lesson when we voted to kick him out for disregarding the rest of the group. The rest of the run was fabulous and their rage whispers were entertaining.

Maybe i should have Worded my Post better. I am not talking about an Outlier DPS who runs way ahead skipping trash etc etc. I am also not talking about a green behind the ears dps who pulls a boss and dies. They deserve it. I am strictly talking about the fluidity of running a Vet Dungeon. Good DPS and Good Tanks Do not go Slow. It is just a fact and maybe some here have never run a Vet Dungeon in such a manner. Also, the Tanks here complaining they would never wear a piece of Swift Jewelry Probably are the same ones who have 8 pieces of Sturdy Trait Armor. Being a Tank, you need to be able to Adapt to the group. Period! Same as a DPS needs to Adapt with Food and Potions etc etc...

I typically run reinforced and mudus on my tank and ive tanked every vet dungeon. Had plenty of speed runs as well. Im not concerned about swift. My teams are able to get through at a great pace. As i said i run celarity. There simply isnt a point beyond getting our speed runs. Beyond that stupid mistakes happen. Seen it too many times to count. We also run a 3 dps setup as im completely self sustaining running full buff sets relative to what my group needs for comp. Pretty significant assumptions happening here

Amottica

ElderSmitter88 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

ElderSmitter88 wrote: »

I am a Tank and a DPS CP 2960 and can tell you if DPS is running that far ahead of a Tank than the Tank is moving too slow.

While I respect your opinion and the right to air it, this is not always the case.

Case in point, many players kill the trash mobs with some pulling multiple groups together for a more efficient killing of those mobs.

If the tank is checking their gear, replying to messages in Discord, or looking into their bag to see the drops they got, yes, they are moving to slow.

Then some players who run through the trash mobs and disregard the rest of the group. That is the type of player who players complain about and it would be incorrect to suggest the tank is moving too slowly in such cases.

Another great point, long ago before I no longer needed to use the GF to get a group (and was tanking) there was a player unfamiliar with the fights. It was made clear at the start and I noted I would explain the mechs of each boss. One lower CP DPS would start the boss fights immediately. After the first boss, I asked him to wait up so I could explain to the newer player.
On the second fight he pulled I told the rest to let him be so we could let him die and learn from his mistakes.

Of course, he raged and then we taught him another lesson when we voted to kick him out for disregarding the rest of the group. The rest of the run was fabulous and their rage whispers were entertaining.

Maybe i should have Worded my Post better. I am not talking about an Outlier DPS who runs way ahead skipping trash etc etc. I am also not talking about a green behind the ears dps who pulls a boss and dies. They deserve it. I am strictly talking about the fluidity of running a Vet Dungeon. Good DPS and Good Tanks Do not go Slow. It is just a fact and maybe some here have never run a Vet Dungeon in such a manner. Also, the Tanks here complaining they would never wear a piece of Swift Jewelry Probably are the same ones who have 8 pieces of Sturdy Trait Armor. Being a Tank, you need to be able to Adapt to the group. Period! Same as a DPS needs to Adapt with Food and Potions etc etc...

What you refer to as an outlier is what most posts complaining about people running ahead are talking about. But in random GF groups, which is the only thing such a thread applies to, there is often an outlier that just runs ahead or is already moving to the next group before the current one is finished.

Oh, and yes, with a random GF group, there is also that chance of getting a slow poke tank. But when queueing for a random group one is specifically asking for randomness which includes having someone slow in the group.

Let us not forget that the overwhelming majority of the target audience for this thread will never see it. The one or maybe two that do are likely not going to think it is concerning them or may not care.

Alharion

there are worse things, like classes that aren't even allowed to play like the nightblade when they try to play something other than a meta...

WrathOfInnos

LokiPagan wrote: »

Putting swift trait on your jewelry and turning it into a two man race where you're trying to get to the final boss in three minutes is just going to make the normal players leave after they get killed by the mobs you leave behind. But hey, at least your two person Sonic party can run circles around the boss!

Going fast and destroying everything in your path is efficiency. Sprinting past enemies and leaving the group to deal with them is just annoying. These two are opposite ends of the spectrum, one makes the run easy and smooth for everyone, the other creates chaos and offers zero help.

LunaFlora

my tank builds aren't fast. it's supposed to be for tanking.
people try to speedrun dungeons no matter what we say so we'll complain.
tanks generally wear heavy armour please don't expect us to be as fast as speedy damage dealers that don't care that they have a tank.

Soarora

ElderSmitter88 wrote: »

Carcamongus wrote: »

Right, because dungeons are supposed to be played like a race. Why would I wear swift jewelry, which isn't the ideal trait, just to catch up with a Sonic wannabe? Where's the "fluidity" when I have to run and taunt in an attempt to keep mobs away from the other players also struggling to catch up? Who said a single Speedy Gonzales DPS gets to set the dungeon's pace? Make no mistake, I don't stop to take screenshots of the scenery. However, a tank's job is to divert damage from the other players and, if possible, buff them. It certainly isn't trying to outrun an impatient player with no regard for the rest of the group.

A Piece of Swift Jewelry on a Tank is Ideal for almost all Content. 99%+ I have been in all Vet Situations and Most Trials... A slow in the Mud Tank does no one any good. Also moving Swiftly (No pun intended lol) Through content does not make it a race. I am not talking about an Outlier DPS who is running past adds etc etc. There is always an Outlier. I am talking about competent DPS who are doing their Job and mowing through a dungeon which as a Tank i appreciate good DPS when i get it. I run all Vet Content as my Tank so Normal dungeons is not what i am commenting on. Too many times when i am running with my DPS the Tank is holding us up. Speed up!

I can think of several content in dungeons and trials where the tank doesn't have to move at all or very little. Even then, it's bracing anchor that makes us so slow. Celerity CP negates the negatives of wearing heavy armor. The swift jewelry just isn't necessary except in niche uses. Which, because bracing anchor is the problem, if someone pulls before the tank... then the tank gets even slower.
Yes, tanks should be quick but the answer is easy: tank slot celerity and sprint, don't pull before the tank. Done, problem solved.

boi_anachronism_

Soarora wrote: »

ElderSmitter88 wrote: »

Carcamongus wrote: »

Right, because dungeons are supposed to be played like a race. Why would I wear swift jewelry, which isn't the ideal trait, just to catch up with a Sonic wannabe? Where's the "fluidity" when I have to run and taunt in an attempt to keep mobs away from the other players also struggling to catch up? Who said a single Speedy Gonzales DPS gets to set the dungeon's pace? Make no mistake, I don't stop to take screenshots of the scenery. However, a tank's job is to divert damage from the other players and, if possible, buff them. It certainly isn't trying to outrun an impatient player with no regard for the rest of the group.

A Piece of Swift Jewelry on a Tank is Ideal for almost all Content. 99%+ I have been in all Vet Situations and Most Trials... A slow in the Mud Tank does no one any good. Also moving Swiftly (No pun intended lol) Through content does not make it a race. I am not talking about an Outlier DPS who is running past adds etc etc. There is always an Outlier. I am talking about competent DPS who are doing their Job and mowing through a dungeon which as a Tank i appreciate good DPS when i get it. I run all Vet Content as my Tank so Normal dungeons is not what i am commenting on. Too many times when i am running with my DPS the Tank is holding us up. Speed up!

I can think of several content in dungeons and trials where the tank doesn't have to move at all or very little. Even then, it's bracing anchor that makes us so slow. Celerity CP negates the negatives of wearing heavy armor. The swift jewelry just isn't necessary except in niche uses. Which, because bracing anchor is the problem, if someone pulls before the tank... then the tank gets even slower.
Yes, tanks should be quick but the answer is easy: tank slot celerity and sprint, don't pull before the tank. Done, problem solved.

I never slot anchor. There are other better options. Dungeons celarity is my go to.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it deals with dungeon groups.

Thank you for your understanding

StaticWave

Unless you're trying to do a No Death run (which should honestly be done with a premade group anyways), or fighting a boss,
there's literally no reason to complain about "Fake Tanks" or DPS running ahead. It's petty at best lol.

DivineKitty

Unless I'm doing some rather tricky vet Dungeons, I normally just shove a Wild Hunt Ring onto my tank. Makes it way easier to keep up with any DPS that runs ahead. It's not like Normal dungeons are particularly tricky, so no need to wear the high-end stuff.
And sometimes I do wear Wild Hunt even in the trickier vet Dungeons. It may cost me a Monster set, but I honestly prefer wearing Mythic Items anyway.

wolfie1.0.

ElderSmitter88 wrote: »

I mean seriously. Reading all these Fake Tank Threads somehow turn into a DPS complain session. I am a Tank and a DPS CP 2960 and can tell you if DPS is running that far ahead of a Tank than the Tank is moving too slow. Yes i am experienced at Tanking so maybe things just go more smoothly but 100% Most Tanks move like a snail. SPEED UP! Use a piece of Swift Jewelry. Good Tanks do more than just Taunt. They keep the group moving and Organized as many DPS and Healers have buffs they want to keep up. Nothing is more annoying than a Tank that stops before every trash pull letting everyone's buffs run out. Stopping before a Boss is different. Fluidity is everything in Tanking. Have 2 taunts a ranged on one bar and Pierce Armor on your main bar for instance so when you're running into a mob you can already start taunting before you even get there. Let DPS do their Job and the only way DPS can do their Job is by YOU (The Tank) staying ahead of the Pack! One of my Main Complaints after Fake Tanks is Slow Real Tanks... Cheers!

the entire concept behind group content is that you work as a group to complete said content. if you don't want to do that then don't queue for group content.

running ahead, lagging behind, bad DPS, bad Tank, no healing, etc. these are all symptoms of players not willing to or taking time to communicate with each other about what they want to do.

wolfie1.0.

ElderSmitter88 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

ElderSmitter88 wrote: »

I am a Tank and a DPS CP 2960 and can tell you if DPS is running that far ahead of a Tank than the Tank is moving too slow.

While I respect your opinion and the right to air it, this is not always the case.

Case in point, many players kill the trash mobs with some pulling multiple groups together for a more efficient killing of those mobs.

If the tank is checking their gear, replying to messages in Discord, or looking into their bag to see the drops they got, yes, they are moving to slow.

Then some players who run through the trash mobs and disregard the rest of the group. That is the type of player who players complain about and it would be incorrect to suggest the tank is moving too slowly in such cases.

Another great point, long ago before I no longer needed to use the GF to get a group (and was tanking) there was a player unfamiliar with the fights. It was made clear at the start and I noted I would explain the mechs of each boss. One lower CP DPS would start the boss fights immediately. After the first boss, I asked him to wait up so I could explain to the newer player.
On the second fight he pulled I told the rest to let him be so we could let him die and learn from his mistakes.

Of course, he raged and then we taught him another lesson when we voted to kick him out for disregarding the rest of the group. The rest of the run was fabulous and their rage whispers were entertaining.

Maybe i should have Worded my Post better. I am not talking about an Outlier DPS who runs way ahead skipping trash etc etc. I am also not talking about a green behind the ears dps who pulls a boss and dies. They deserve it. I am strictly talking about the fluidity of running a Vet Dungeon. Good DPS and Good Tanks Do not go Slow. It is just a fact and maybe some here have never run a Vet Dungeon in such a manner. Also, the Tanks here complaining they would never wear a piece of Swift Jewelry Probably are the same ones who have 8 pieces of Sturdy Trait Armor. Being a Tank, you need to be able to Adapt to the group. Period! Same as a DPS needs to Adapt with Food and Potions etc etc...

I agree that you need to adapt, but part of that adaption process is to talk about these things with your group before you start. ie you have to communicate. there are many play styles in this game for each role, and if you just want to kill the bosses and death walk your way through a dungeon then feel free, just let your group know that is your plan from the start, that way if they don't like it they can leave the group.

Carcamongus

On vet dungeons the only one doing the pulling should be the tank. That's even more important than in normal ones. Some tank builds sacrifice speed for extra sturdiness (not the armor trait), but that's not so bad the tank will move like a lethargic tortoise. It's possible to keep a nice pace without swift jewelry.

As others have pointed out, the frequent complaints about DPS running ahead refer to those who leave everyone behind to their own luck. I don't mind when I'm not the first one to leave the dead mobs behind and head to the next group, but I do mind when I have to spend all my stamina to catch up with the Tamrielic Flash or see a groupmate die because several groups of mobs converged on the poor fellow.

AvalonRanger

DPS running ahead of Tanks!

I'm tank main, but I'm OK about this.
Actually say, If DD is excellent player can deal with much of mobs at once,
then great thanks!!

But, normal running only. And, if you're weak DD, then don't do this.
I love skillful DD, but I don't want brain-dead speed runner DD.

Once, I saw CP 2400 brain-dead DD charge against first Scalecaller Peak dungeon boss,
and killed just 5 sec after the combat started. Please don't do this kind of stupid behavior.