Mora's Whispers Could use a buff

francesinhalover

Like Mree said

1) Requires the player to max out the antiquities skill line
2) Requires multiple completion of some of less trivial content (ICP and Atoll of Immolation) not counting just a lot of grind for other leads
3) Essentially requires getting all the Shalidor's Library books per character
4) Uses a monster set slot.

Given all of this drawbacks i think the mythic is ok but not really usefull. there are just better options like harponers.

And given how hard this mythic is to get i think it could use some slight buff.

2000 crit rating would be good ofcourse but perhapes too strong? perhapes not.
I wouldn't even mind if the mythic gets some hp

What is everyone's thoughts?

sarahthes

francesinhalover wrote: »

Like Mree said

1) Requires the player to max out the antiquities skill line
2) Requires multiple completion of some of less trivial content (ICP and Atoll of Immolation) not counting just a lot of grind for other leads
3) Essentially requires getting all the Shalidor's Library books per character
4) Uses a monster set slot.

Given all of this drawbacks i think the mythic is ok but not really usefull. there are just better options like harponers.

And given how hard this mythic is to get i think it could use some slight buff.

2000 crit rating would be good ofcourse but perhapes too strong? perhapes not.
I wouldn't even mind if the mythic gets some hp

What is everyone's thoughts?

This mythic is meta for non arcanists already in some content and you want to buff it more?

francesinhalover

sarahthes wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

Like Mree said

1) Requires the player to max out the antiquities skill line
2) Requires multiple completion of some of less trivial content (ICP and Atoll of Immolation) not counting just a lot of grind for other leads
3) Essentially requires getting all the Shalidor's Library books per character
4) Uses a monster set slot.

Given all of this drawbacks i think the mythic is ok but not really usefull. there are just better options like harponers.

And given how hard this mythic is to get i think it could use some slight buff.

2000 crit rating would be good ofcourse but perhapes too strong? perhapes not.
I wouldn't even mind if the mythic gets some hp

What is everyone's thoughts?

This mythic is meta for non arcanists already in some content and you want to buff it more?

where does this mythic surpass harponers?

sarahthes

francesinhalover wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

Like Mree said

1) Requires the player to max out the antiquities skill line
2) Requires multiple completion of some of less trivial content (ICP and Atoll of Immolation) not counting just a lot of grind for other leads
3) Essentially requires getting all the Shalidor's Library books per character
4) Uses a monster set slot.

Given all of this drawbacks i think the mythic is ok but not really usefull. there are just better options like harponers.

And given how hard this mythic is to get i think it could use some slight buff.

2000 crit rating would be good ofcourse but perhapes too strong? perhapes not.
I wouldn't even mind if the mythic gets some hp

What is everyone's thoughts?

This mythic is meta for non arcanists already in some content and you want to buff it more?

where does this mythic surpass harponers?

Any boss fights where you have the potential to lose kilt stacks.

It's used a lot in Rockgrove, for example. Or well, it was until everyone switched to arcanist.

Trejgon

I have stated it in Mree's thread, and I will reiterate in here:

1) Requires the player to max out the antiquities skill line

This is incorrect. For Mythic items you only require Antiquarian Insight 4/5, with 5th node being needed for select few "ultimate difficulty" antiquities. This comes available at level 7 out of 10 of Scrying skill line.

On the case of the buff - as user of this relic, I would of course not mind getting buffs thrown my way, but looking at it objectively, it does not really need it.

AlterBlika

It's one of the best pve damage mythics actually, in group content it's somewhat on a par with kilt, when solo it's only outclassed by sea serpent. It's fine. With addons you can collect all books in a day, you probably already have most of them.
Who uses monster sets anyway?

WrathOfInnos

I think Mora’s Whispers could use a small buff. IMO Mythic items should give more than a standard 5 piece set bonus.

Look at Order’s Wrath for example, which gives 4.3% crit chance and 8% crit damage. Compare that to the Harpooner’s Kilt mythic, which gives 5% crit chance and 10% crit damage. That is a 16% and 25% increase to these stats.

Now look at Mora’s, which gives 7% crit chance max (after farming every book). This is the same as the Mother’s Sorrow or Leviathan 5 piece bonus, and equal to crafted Heartland Conquerer with Precise. If we want to be less generous, we could compare this 7% on MW with the Advancing Yokeda 5 piece of 11% crit chance. I don’t believe it needs to be that strong, but I’d like to see Mora’s buffed to 8.5% crit chance (21% stronger than Sorrow/Levi) to feel more like a mythic.

In its current state, Mora’s is rarely a good choice. Even in situations where Kilt is not useful, 2pc Zaan tends to beat Mora’s + 1 Slimecraw. And while there are some encounters that discourage both Zaan and Kilt, they are not common and it only gets used when better options fail. If we go through the Watcher grind and book grind, it should really be a more versatile option to compete (but not exceed) current meta sets, especially considering that it forces the user to wear light shoulders in a medium armor meta.

8-9% would be good, my vote is 8.5% crit chance to balance it.

boi_anachronism_

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I think Mora’s Whispers could use a small buff. IMO Mythic items should give more than a standard 5 piece set bonus.

Look at Order’s Wrath for example, which gives 4.3% crit chance and 8% crit damage. Compare that to the Harpooner’s Kilt mythic, which gives 5% crit chance and 10% crit damage. That is a 16% and 25% increase to these stats.

Now look at Mora’s, which gives 7% crit chance max (after farming every book). This is the same as the Mother’s Sorrow or Leviathan 5 piece bonus, and equal to crafted Heartland Conquerer with Precise. If we want to be less generous, we could compare this 7% on MW with the Advancing Yokeda 5 piece of 11% crit chance. I don’t believe it needs to be that strong, but I’d like to see Mora’s buffed to 8.5% crit chance (21% stronger than Sorrow/Levi) to feel more like a mythic.

In its current state, Mora’s is rarely a good choice. Even in situations where Kilt is not useful, 2pc Zaan tends to beat Mora’s + 1 Slimecraw. And while there are some encounters that discourage both Zaan and Kilt, they are not common and it only gets used when better options fail. If we go through the Watcher grind and book grind, it should really be a more versatile option to compete (but not exceed) current meta sets, especially considering that it forces the user to wear light shoulders in a medium armor meta.

8-9% would be good, my vote is 8.5% crit chance to balance it.

Thing here is that harpooners can fall off in a lot of content pretty easy. This never does. I know lot of high level folks who use this and as for comparing it to a 5 piece well its a 1 piece. You can still choose two five piece sets and a one piece monster helm.

Necrotech_Master

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I think Mora’s Whispers could use a small buff. IMO Mythic items should give more than a standard 5 piece set bonus.

Look at Order’s Wrath for example, which gives 4.3% crit chance and 8% crit damage. Compare that to the Harpooner’s Kilt mythic, which gives 5% crit chance and 10% crit damage. That is a 16% and 25% increase to these stats.

Now look at Mora’s, which gives 7% crit chance max (after farming every book). This is the same as the Mother’s Sorrow or Leviathan 5 piece bonus, and equal to crafted Heartland Conquerer with Precise. If we want to be less generous, we could compare this 7% on MW with the Advancing Yokeda 5 piece of 11% crit chance. I don’t believe it needs to be that strong, but I’d like to see Mora’s buffed to 8.5% crit chance (21% stronger than Sorrow/Levi) to feel more like a mythic.

In its current state, Mora’s is rarely a good choice. Even in situations where Kilt is not useful, 2pc Zaan tends to beat Mora’s + 1 Slimecraw. And while there are some encounters that discourage both Zaan and Kilt, they are not common and it only gets used when better options fail. If we go through the Watcher grind and book grind, it should really be a more versatile option to compete (but not exceed) current meta sets, especially considering that it forces the user to wear light shoulders in a medium armor meta.

8-9% would be good, my vote is 8.5% crit chance to balance it.

Thing here is that harpooners can fall off in a lot of content pretty easy. This never does. I know lot of high level folks who use this and as for comparing it to a 5 piece well its a 1 piece. You can still choose two five piece sets and a one piece monster helm.

this, moras is incredibly stat dense when its giving a 5 pc bonus for 1 pc

i do think that the part of the mythic with the shalidors library scaling is a lot of effort though, even with addons showing where the books are, your looking at least at a dozen hours of book collecting per toon, getting slower if you dont have a lot of houses or no wayshrines opened

WrathOfInnos

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I think Mora’s Whispers could use a small buff. IMO Mythic items should give more than a standard 5 piece set bonus.

Look at Order’s Wrath for example, which gives 4.3% crit chance and 8% crit damage. Compare that to the Harpooner’s Kilt mythic, which gives 5% crit chance and 10% crit damage. That is a 16% and 25% increase to these stats.

Now look at Mora’s, which gives 7% crit chance max (after farming every book). This is the same as the Mother’s Sorrow or Leviathan 5 piece bonus, and equal to crafted Heartland Conquerer with Precise. If we want to be less generous, we could compare this 7% on MW with the Advancing Yokeda 5 piece of 11% crit chance. I don’t believe it needs to be that strong, but I’d like to see Mora’s buffed to 8.5% crit chance (21% stronger than Sorrow/Levi) to feel more like a mythic.

In its current state, Mora’s is rarely a good choice. Even in situations where Kilt is not useful, 2pc Zaan tends to beat Mora’s + 1 Slimecraw. And while there are some encounters that discourage both Zaan and Kilt, they are not common and it only gets used when better options fail. If we go through the Watcher grind and book grind, it should really be a more versatile option to compete (but not exceed) current meta sets, especially considering that it forces the user to wear light shoulders in a medium armor meta.

8-9% would be good, my vote is 8.5% crit chance to balance it.

Thing here is that harpooners can fall off in a lot of content pretty easy. This never does. I know lot of high level folks who use this and as for comparing it to a 5 piece well its a 1 piece. You can still choose two five piece sets and a one piece monster helm.

this, moras is incredibly stat dense when its giving a 5 pc bonus for 1 pc

I think that is a strange way of looking at Mythics, they certainly are not intended to be balanced with the few 1pc sets in existence.

Their balance should be compared with a no-mythic 5-5-2 set setup. To add a mythic, you need to either break a 5-piece set, resulting in 5-4-2-1, or break a 2-piece set (monster helm or arena weapon), resulting in 5-5-1-1. This means that the mythic needs to be at least as strong as a 2pc monster helm or a 5pc set bonus to be useful. Mora’s Whispers falls slightly short of this goal.

It’s easy to see the intended strength of Mythics with various other examples. Look at Oakensoul, Velothi, or Sea-Serpent’s Coil for stat density. I mentioned Kilt above, with ~20% more stats than Order’s Wrath 5pc. Sure it is situational (and fine in the majority of boss fights), which is good design for a mythic, but Mora’s lacks a situation where it shines. Thrassian Stranglers are also situational, but they at least reward you with 1150 weapon damage when given the opportunity (3.8 times the 5pc bonus on Hundings/Julianos).

Necrotech_Master

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I think Mora’s Whispers could use a small buff. IMO Mythic items should give more than a standard 5 piece set bonus.

Look at Order’s Wrath for example, which gives 4.3% crit chance and 8% crit damage. Compare that to the Harpooner’s Kilt mythic, which gives 5% crit chance and 10% crit damage. That is a 16% and 25% increase to these stats.

Now look at Mora’s, which gives 7% crit chance max (after farming every book). This is the same as the Mother’s Sorrow or Leviathan 5 piece bonus, and equal to crafted Heartland Conquerer with Precise. If we want to be less generous, we could compare this 7% on MW with the Advancing Yokeda 5 piece of 11% crit chance. I don’t believe it needs to be that strong, but I’d like to see Mora’s buffed to 8.5% crit chance (21% stronger than Sorrow/Levi) to feel more like a mythic.

In its current state, Mora’s is rarely a good choice. Even in situations where Kilt is not useful, 2pc Zaan tends to beat Mora’s + 1 Slimecraw. And while there are some encounters that discourage both Zaan and Kilt, they are not common and it only gets used when better options fail. If we go through the Watcher grind and book grind, it should really be a more versatile option to compete (but not exceed) current meta sets, especially considering that it forces the user to wear light shoulders in a medium armor meta.

8-9% would be good, my vote is 8.5% crit chance to balance it.

Thing here is that harpooners can fall off in a lot of content pretty easy. This never does. I know lot of high level folks who use this and as for comparing it to a 5 piece well its a 1 piece. You can still choose two five piece sets and a one piece monster helm.

this, moras is incredibly stat dense when its giving a 5 pc bonus for 1 pc

I think that is a strange way of looking at Mythics, they certainly are not intended to be balanced with the few 1pc sets in existence.

Their balance should be compared with a no-mythic 5-5-2 set setup. To add a mythic, you need to either break a 5-piece set, resulting in 5-4-2-1, or break a 2-piece set (monster helm or arena weapon), resulting in 5-5-1-1. This means that the mythic needs to be at least as strong as a 2pc monster helm or a 5pc set bonus to be useful. Mora’s Whispers falls slightly short of this goal.

It’s easy to see the intended strength of Mythics with various other examples. Look at Oakensoul, Velothi, or Sea-Serpent’s Coil for stat density. I mentioned Kilt above, with ~20% more stats than Order’s Wrath 5pc. Sure it is situational (and fine in the majority of boss fights), which is good design for a mythic, but Mora’s lacks a situation where it shines. Thrassian Stranglers are also situational, but they at least reward you with 1150 weapon damage when given the opportunity (3.8 times the 5pc bonus on Hundings/Julianos).

if you compare a mythic with a 1pc monster, then its still twice as strong

apple to apple comparison would be slimecraw

slimecraw 1pc is 771 crit rating at gold quality

moras maxed bonus is basically double of that (1528 crit rating)

WrathOfInnos

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I think Mora’s Whispers could use a small buff. IMO Mythic items should give more than a standard 5 piece set bonus.

Look at Order’s Wrath for example, which gives 4.3% crit chance and 8% crit damage. Compare that to the Harpooner’s Kilt mythic, which gives 5% crit chance and 10% crit damage. That is a 16% and 25% increase to these stats.

Now look at Mora’s, which gives 7% crit chance max (after farming every book). This is the same as the Mother’s Sorrow or Leviathan 5 piece bonus, and equal to crafted Heartland Conquerer with Precise. If we want to be less generous, we could compare this 7% on MW with the Advancing Yokeda 5 piece of 11% crit chance. I don’t believe it needs to be that strong, but I’d like to see Mora’s buffed to 8.5% crit chance (21% stronger than Sorrow/Levi) to feel more like a mythic.

In its current state, Mora’s is rarely a good choice. Even in situations where Kilt is not useful, 2pc Zaan tends to beat Mora’s + 1 Slimecraw. And while there are some encounters that discourage both Zaan and Kilt, they are not common and it only gets used when better options fail. If we go through the Watcher grind and book grind, it should really be a more versatile option to compete (but not exceed) current meta sets, especially considering that it forces the user to wear light shoulders in a medium armor meta.

8-9% would be good, my vote is 8.5% crit chance to balance it.

Thing here is that harpooners can fall off in a lot of content pretty easy. This never does. I know lot of high level folks who use this and as for comparing it to a 5 piece well its a 1 piece. You can still choose two five piece sets and a one piece monster helm.

this, moras is incredibly stat dense when its giving a 5 pc bonus for 1 pc

I think that is a strange way of looking at Mythics, they certainly are not intended to be balanced with the few 1pc sets in existence.

Their balance should be compared with a no-mythic 5-5-2 set setup. To add a mythic, you need to either break a 5-piece set, resulting in 5-4-2-1, or break a 2-piece set (monster helm or arena weapon), resulting in 5-5-1-1. This means that the mythic needs to be at least as strong as a 2pc monster helm or a 5pc set bonus to be useful. Mora’s Whispers falls slightly short of this goal.

It’s easy to see the intended strength of Mythics with various other examples. Look at Oakensoul, Velothi, or Sea-Serpent’s Coil for stat density. I mentioned Kilt above, with ~20% more stats than Order’s Wrath 5pc. Sure it is situational (and fine in the majority of boss fights), which is good design for a mythic, but Mora’s lacks a situation where it shines. Thrassian Stranglers are also situational, but they at least reward you with 1150 weapon damage when given the opportunity (3.8 times the 5pc bonus on Hundings/Julianos).

if you compare a mythic with a 1pc monster, then its still twice as strong

apple to apple comparison would be slimecraw

slimecraw 1pc is 771 crit rating at gold quality

moras maxed bonus is basically double of that (1528 crit rating)

Yes, it is true that Mora’s is double a Slimecraw 1 piece bonus. However Slimecraw is unusually good for a 1 piece, and Mora’s is unusually bad for a mythic.

Look at another example: Baron Zaudrus 1 piece gives tri-stat resources, 1699 total. Death Dealers Fete also gives tri-stat resources, 7920 total. Does this mean that Mythics are balanced at 4.66 times a standard 1 piece bonus?

The standard 1-piece for crit is 3%, but Mora’s would be ridiculously overpowered if it gave 4.66x3%=14% crit chance.

It becomes more extreme with some dubious examples like Thrassians, giving 8.9 times a standard 129 weapon damage, but that set is hard to use and reduces survivability. It subtracts 5 standard health bonuses at full stacks, so maybe gives net benefit 8.9-5=3.9 times a 1-piece. Even that would still be too much for Mora’s, since 3.9x3%=11.7% crit (more than even AY’s 5-piece).

I don’t think there is an easy numerical answer here, every mythic is very different, and they often bring some type of condition or “curse” for balance.

In my experience, Mora’s falls a little short of the impact Mythics should have. It seems to be considering the experience boost in its combat effectiveness, which is a mistake IMO. It should not be overbuffed, bringing it up to 10% crit would be too much (that is Kilt level damage without worrying about incoming damage or crit damage cap. It would be reasonable to see Mora’s give 8% or 9% crit. Basically the Tzogvins 5-piece bonus without the Minor Force effect (10% crit damage).

Malprave

This is another terrible waste of what would have been a cool item. Sure, I could use this on my main character that has all the lore books, but the other five? God bless you guys that get all the lore books on all your chars, not this guy though, no way.