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Class Shortcomings, Simple Fixes

merpins
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So I'm going to go over each class and give very simple solutions to the problems each class faces in content. They're not perfect solutions, but they'd at least probably help. I'm not suggesting nuanced solutions, just kinda blanket solutions based on my experience with each class.

Dragon Knight
PVE: Could use a simple damage reduction. Just take all skills and reduce their damage by 1% to 2%.
PVP: Damage is fine, tanking is too strong. The recent nerf that's going live next patch might fix it, but would need to be tested.
These are in conflict. This could be mitigated by balancing PVE and PVP separately.

Templar
PVE: Could use a simple damage increase. Reverting Jabs to Pre-U35 and giving it most of the damage it lost from Backlash would fix the problem. Personally hate the new animation of Jabs (am an animator, so it is extra bad for me), but damage wise it probably needs about a 20% buff to jabs and a 30-40% buff to backlash.
PVP: Seems fine, though kinda one note. Buff or redo Sun Shield and it'll be in a better spot. The buffs to PVE shouldn't effect PVP that much since it would just make another playstyle, not kill off the current playstyle. That's a good thing, since right now templar basically has one playstyle in PVP.

Sorcerer
PVE: Doesn't have a good spammable for stamina, and doesn't do good damage for magicka. Relies too heavily on pets. Increasing the damage of non-pet skills by 10-20% and giving them a decent spammable for stam would be what it needs.
PVP: Basically the same as PVE, but worse since it doesn't have any reliable self-healing.

Nightblade
PVE: Does okay damage for close range, but its best damage is done when you use flurry instead of its own skills. The class could use a bit of simplification, nothing huge cause that's part of the draw of NB, but making it new user friendly would be nice. It could also use a damage buff, between 10 and 20% for close range, non execute skills, and 25 to 35% for siphoning skills specifically.
PVP: Does great damage. Its single target and burst could even kinda use a nerf, 5 to 10%.
These are in conflict. This could be mitigated by balancing PVE and PVP separately.

Warden
PVE: Magicka needs a minor buff, maybe 5 to 10%. Stamina needs a major buff, maybe 20 to 30%, and more bleed skill options. They've recently removed more than one source of bleed, making stamina even weaker in recent memory.
PVP: Stamina needs a buff, similar to PVE. Magicka has some issues, and is performing slightly too well in some aspects, mainly tanking. Not sure about exactly how it needs to be nerfed, but it doesn't seem like it needs a big one.

Necromancer
PVE: Needs a buff to damage. 20 or 30% across the board.
PVP: About the same as PVE.

Arcanist
PVE: Damage is fine if just slightly too high. The non-beam skills that the class uses for damage could use a minor nerf, ~2% each at most, probably a little less than that. Its support needs a medium nerf. The nerf next patch might cover it, but probably not.
PVP: Damage is a little low, and tanking is a little strong. 5 to 10% buff and nerf respectively. It also lacks useful burst heals.
These are in conflict. This could be mitigated by balancing PVE and PVP separately.
Edited by merpins on September 27, 2023 8:21PM
  • Turtle_Bot
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    For PvP, sorcerer has enough damage it just needs adjusting how it is applied.

    Currently all of sorcerers class damage (outside of the 1 meta proc build) is too back end loaded, it makes for some nice burst combos, but also makes it extremely unreliable.

    right now sorc has 4 delayed damage skills;
    - curse
    - armaments
    - frags/weapon
    - fury
    but it has no upfront damage skills outside of overload to time with the delayed skills (outside of weapon abilities).

    Sorcs biggest issue in PvP though is reliable healing.
    The matriarch is far too easy to kill and the cast times on the class heals essentially all but guarantee death when the matriarch dies since the cast times disable sprint, block, dodge roll and even weapon swapping while they are being cast and if those defensive options are attempted during the cast time, the heal gets cancelled instead.
    The class HoT requires dealing critical damage but the class has no inherent access to major prophecy or unique crit chance modifiers to boost this to a more reliable level.
    Crit surge also doesn't do anything when the class is under pressure (extremely common in PvP) since when you're under pressure, you're generally not dealing damage (especially since boundless storm gets outranged by all melee attacks since its range didn't get increased to match the new 7 meter melee range standard and both morphs still tick once every 2 seconds thanks to the U35 nerfs).

    Easiest fixes for sorc:
    1. Make 1 morph of fury into a spammable with a smaller execute component that costs whichever max resource is higher.
    2. Give the class built in crit chance modifiers (most balanced is the major prophecy named buff since it won't stack).
    3. Give the class a reliable burst heal that has no cast time/cannot be killed.
    4. Increase the radius of boundless storm to 8-10m so it can actually hit melee enemies and reduce the tick frequency to 1 second instead of 2 seconds.

    Of course adjustments would be made to suit:
    1. Cost of fury morph increased to be closer to cost of force pulse.
    2. Crit surge heal value reduced by about 10% due to higher uptime and easier proc chance on its heal.
    3. (a) Matriarch heal amount is reduced to be closer to other heal values (if they go with matriarch for this change) OR
    3. (b) Dark deal sustain now becomes entirely over the duration instead of a burst + over time sustain.
    4. Boundless/Hurricane duration reduced to 20/15 seconds respectively since they now tick more frequently.

    For PvE though, I agree with you, the non-pet abilities need a huge buff (maybe attach a condition that they only gain the buff when only 1 or 0 pets are slotted to not make pet builds even stronger).
    Another thing I would add for PvE is that liquid lightning needs its hidden cast time removed on top of a damage increase. Due to the animation that skill has, there's a hidden cast time that often makes it unreliable to cast and puts a delay on it when it is cast.
  • boi_anachronism_
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    merpins wrote: »
    So I'm going to go over each class and give very simple solutions to the problems each class faces in content. They're not perfect solutions, but they'd at least probably help. I'm not suggesting nuanced solutions, just kinda blanket solutions based on my experience with each class.

    Dragon Knight
    PVE: Could use a simple damage reduction. Just take all skills and reduce their damage by 1% to 2%.
    PVP: Damage is fine, tanking is too strong. The recent nerf that's going live next patch might fix it, but would need to be tested.

    Templar
    PVE: Could use a simple damage increase. Reverting Jabs to Pre-U35 and giving it most of the damage it lost from Backlash would fix the problem. Personally hate the new animation of Jabs (am an animator, so it is extra bad for me), but damage wise it probably needs about a 20% buff to jabs and a 30-40% buff to backlash.
    PVP: Seems fine, though kinda one note. Buff or redo Sun Shield and it'll be in a better spot.

    Sorcerer
    PVE: Doesn't have a good spammable for stamina, and doesn't do good damage for magicka. Relies too heavily on pets. Increasing the damage of non-pet skills by 10-20% and giving them a decent spammable for stam would be what it needs.
    PVP: Basically the same as PVE.

    Nightblade
    PVE: Does okay damage for close range, but its best damage is done when you use flurry instead of its own skills. The class could use a bit of simplification, nothing huge cause that's part of the draw of NB, but making it new user friendly would be nice. It could also use a damage buff, between 10 and 20% for close range, non execute skills, and 25 to 35% for siphoning skills specifically.
    PVP: Does great damage. Its single target and burst could even kinda use a nerf, 5 to 10%.
    These are in conflict. This could be mitigated by balancing PVE and PVP separately.

    Warden
    PVE: Magicka needs a minor buff, maybe 5 to 10%. Stamina needs a major buff, maybe 20 to 30%, and more bleed skill options. They've recently removed more than one source of bleed, making stamina even weaker in recent memory.
    PVP: Stamina needs a buff, similar to PVE. Magicka has some issues, and is performing slightly too well in some aspects. Not sure about exactly how it needs to be nerfed, but it doesn't seem like it needs a big one.

    Necromancer
    PVE: Needs a buff to damage. 20 or 30% across the board.
    PVP: About the same as PVE.

    Arcanist
    PVE: Damage is fine if just slightly too high. The non-beam skills that the class uses for damage could use a minor nerf, ~2% each at most. Its support needs a medium nerf. The nerf next patch might cover it, but probably not.
    PVP: Damage is a little low, and tanking is a little strong. 5 to 10% buff and nerf respectively.

    To nb: i'll give you kutos for mentioning the pve/pvp issue on this. They are actually in a real bad spot for 12 man rn.

    Arc: has no burst heal. Shields is all they got. Take that and they are useless as a pve tank so those are also in conflict. Its the same problem we run into when talking about nerfing dk tanks however they have both much stronger self heals and a complete invulnerability skill, arc do not. Dks can stand the smaller tank nerf. Wardens are quite on par with arc tanks and dks are way stronger.
    Edited by boi_anachronism_ on September 27, 2023 1:17AM
  • merpins
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    Turtle_Bot wrote: »
    Sorcs biggest issue in PvP though is reliable healing.

    I forgot about the lack of healing of Sorc, good catch. The rest is good and in depth as well, but I was just going over the basic blanket problems and giving basic blanket solutions, which is why I didn't dive deep. Good, in depth analysis.
  • boi_anachronism_
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    The problem with sorc burst healing is this, Matriarch gives a very very strong one... but its useful only in pve situations. In pvp its simply not viable since it can be killed so easily. I never run it for my pvp sorc. Its just useless.
    Edited by boi_anachronism_ on September 27, 2023 4:24PM
  • UsualSurrender
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    The problem with sorc burst healing is this, Matriarch gives a very very strong one... but its useful only in pve situations. In pvp its simply not viable since it can be killed so easily. I never run it for my pvp sorc. Its just useless.

    Everybody says they don't use the matriarch, and yet there are always 4 or 5 matriarchs preventing me from repairing keep gates.
    *grumbles away*
  • Tyrant_Tim
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    You had me at Sun Shield.

    If there’s any class ability in the game that needs a rework, it’s that horrible niche ability.
  • Amottica
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    The first issue I see with the simple fixes is that some go against what Zenimax has explicitly said they would not do. In other words, if PvP damage for DKs is fine then they will still be nerfed by 1-2% due to the PvE nerf.

    The reality is, no matter how many times the word simple is, balancing never is all that simple.

  • Amottica
    Amottica
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    The problem with sorc burst healing is this, Matriarch gives a very very strong one... but its useful only in pve situations. In pvp its simply not viable since it can be killed so easily. I never run it for my pvp sorc. Its just useless.

    Everybody says they don't use the matriarch, and yet there are always 4 or 5 matriarchs preventing me from repairing keep gates.
    *grumbles away*

    There are three morphs, including base, to the skill. It just might be they are using other morphs. Even then, I do not think I have ever seen sorcs with any morph of the twilight out preparing keeps all in one place. I certainly have not been prevented from preparing keeps due to any pet.

  • merpins
    merpins
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    Amottica wrote: »
    The first issue I see with the simple fixes is that some go against what Zenimax has explicitly said they would not do. In other words, if PvP damage for DKs is fine then they will still be nerfed by 1-2% due to the PvE nerf.

    The reality is, no matter how many times the word simple is, balancing never is all that simple.

    I mean. If it needs a nerf for PVE but a buff for PVP due to the nerf in PVE, then maybe it should be balanced separately. These are the issues with both game modes.

    The solution is simple; balance the game modes separately, then these simple fixes are simple. It's really just Zos' refusal to balance the game modes separately that's causing such an imbalance in the game. The infrastructure for this might be difficult to design or implement, but it's probably less difficult than a new class, and would make future changes much easier.
  • Amottica
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    merpins wrote: »
    Amottica wrote: »
    The first issue I see with the simple fixes is that some go against what Zenimax has explicitly said they would not do. In other words, if PvP damage for DKs is fine then they will still be nerfed by 1-2% due to the PvE nerf.

    The reality is, no matter how many times the word simple is, balancing never is all that simple.

    I mean. If it needs a nerf for PVE but a buff for PVP due to the nerf in PVE, then maybe it should be balanced separately. These are the issues with both game modes.

    The solution is simple; balance the game modes separately, then these simple fixes are simple. It's really just Zos' refusal to balance the game modes separately that's causing such an imbalance in the game. The infrastructure for this might be difficult to design or implement, but it's probably less difficult than a new class, and would make future changes much easier.

    What was meant in the OP was clear. Not sure why the attempt at clarification since I speaking to the firm stance Zenimax has repeated.

    and your solution is simple but the real solution is not that simple. That is the point I was making that is my opinion. It is so easy to put forth an idea as a simple solution but the issue is often not so simple and is often skewed by our opinion.

    Beyond that, I am not all that concerned.
  • Turtle_Bot
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    merpins wrote: »
    Turtle_Bot wrote: »
    Sorcs biggest issue in PvP though is reliable healing.

    I forgot about the lack of healing of Sorc, good catch. The rest is good and in depth as well, but I was just going over the basic blanket problems and giving basic blanket solutions, which is why I didn't dive deep. Good, in depth analysis.

    I agree that basic blanket solutions to problems are easier to implement for the short term, unfortunately sorc is in the state it's in currently because they kept trying to take the basic blanket short term route in terms of balancing the class.

    It keeps resulting in far harsher nerfs or more overpowered buffs than what is actually needed to have the class itself in a good spot.

    I said it before in multiple threads, sorcs issues are not something that can be fixed with numbers alone. Trying to fix the class by buffing numbers alone just makes the class overpowered, but trying to keep the numbers in a balanced spot makes the class severely underpowered due to how the abilities function and synergise with the current state of the game.

    The class needs better functionality and synergy for its class kit to fit the modern game than what it currently has and unfortunately that requires a lot of work in redesigning how abilities and passives function instead of simply tweaking numbers.

    It's not like it can't be done, DK got a big rework that brought it up (well a bit too far but that is because everything else was nerfed at the same time/shortly after) and NB got a lot of buffs that made it really strong (for PvP) so it is definitely possible to do, it just requires someone on the team to understand the issues with the class and has the drive to actually do it.
    In other words, its impossible :lol:
  • Araneae6537
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    Good points regarding damage. For support, I would like to see every class have unique buffs/debuffs. Lacking this has, for instance, made templars sub-optimal support, even as healers, compared to warden and nightblade. Similarly, necromancers used to have a place with vulnerability but now there’s a set that does that. If necros didn’t use the Elemental Catalyst set so well, they probably wouldn’t be in any trial groups anymore.
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