This is fine? ''Knight Slayer Set''

Mr_Jord_Joe · September 2023

Well, I was in BG and recently I'm noticing that in some of them, some people are using the ''Knight Slayer'' set, and it's being very painful to receive all this damage, the point is, each tick of the lightning staff causes the damage from this set? Or is it just the last one?

[edited for profanity bypass]

Amerises · September 2023

You have 40 health and it’s doing 8% of that (about 3k). It’s the final shock only. So you’re upset about a 5pc set proc’ing 3k every 2sec against your 40k hp? If deep fissure only did that little, I’m going to assume you have high resistances as well. The set was made to be used against exactly you. If you tossed in a dodge roll or stand behind a box, you’d be totally fine as well 🤷🏻‍♂️

OBJnoob · September 2023

Well. While I do agree with Amerisis above me, I do have to say it's a little weird that there's 11 procs of Knight slayer and only 1 heavy attack.

Which... I know recaps are pretty unreliable... But it does seem fair to ask if Knight Slayer procs on every tick or only on completion. Because who the heck took the time to channel 11 heavies? How long did that take? Lol?

Kartalin · September 2023

Looks like it’s hitting on every tick considering the recap. Yeah 11 full heavies sounds unlikely

Skullstachio · September 2023

Mr_Jord_Joe wrote: »

Well, I was in BG and recently I'm noticing that in some of them, some people are using the ''Knight Slayer'' set, and it's being very painful to receive all this damage, the point is, each tick of the lightning staff causes the damage from this set? Or is it just the last one?

To answer your question: the sets description clearly states as such:
"Your fully-charged Heavy Attacks deal an additional 8% of an enemy's Max Health as Oblivion Damage. This can deal a maximum of 186-8000 Oblivion Damage."
So really it should be only proccing on the final tick of damage from a Lightning Stave Heavy.

On another note, I am a bit skeptical as to how many players in that battleground session were running knight slayer because.
Looking at the recap.
16,135 -:- 5 = 3227 oblivion damage per tick on fully charged heavy attack.
19,362 -:- 6 = 3227 ———

Hoarcrux · September 2023

Based on the screenshot alone, it seems like it is proccing on every tick of the heavy attack. SO essentially the "fully charged" heavy attack proc condition is actually proccing 3x instead of 1x. Assume ur health is 40k 5 ticks of KS would deal 40% of 40k which is 16k. Checks out IMO. Possible an unintended bug with staff changes?

FirmamentOfStars · September 2023

Its only proccing on the last hit of lightning staves. The death recap is just misleading, because it sorts damage numbers and sources in some weird priority order.

Mr_Jord_Joe · September 2023

@Amerises @OBJnoob @Kartalin @Skullstachio @Hoarcrux @FirmamentOfStars

I went to test, it's really only on the last tick, I think the recap shows the highest and most recent values, I have 42k, I'm essentially a tank, I go BG to do objectives, so I'm not interested in killing players, I resist 4 well players and distract them for a long time, but yesterday this set really killed my HP very quickly!

Note: they were from two people who only used HA, one being a warden!

The set really does its job well on tanks

katorga · September 2023

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

Its only proccing on the last hit of lightning staves. The death recap is just misleading, because it sorts damage numbers and sources in some weird priority order.

The death recap has always been useless and inaccurate.

It does proc once on last tick.

The set always pops back into use when health pools start going up.

Necrotech_Master · September 2023

knight slayer caps out at 8000 dmg per hit, but only if you had 100k hp (8% max hp dmg per hit, cannot crit)

you got hit with that proc 6 times before you died dealing a total of 19k dmg

like others noted it only procs on the final tick of the heavy for channeled heavy since its a "fully charged" heavy requirement

goes back again to the death recap is not the greatest at telling you what happened, those 6 hits happened sometime during your entire time alive and were absolutely not all at once (fully charge heavy takes 2.1 sec to complete, 6 procs of that is 12.6 sec minimum you were taking heavy attacks though it was likely spread out over the course of like a couple minutes)

El_Borracho · September 2023

Knight Slayer is far from OP, even in BGs. Don't put too much stock in the damage recap. Bang the HA warden with an interrupt or cc, then close-quarter him down while periodically bashing. Makes HA sets useless.

LittlePinkDot · September 2023

Mr_Jord_Joe wrote: »

@Amerises @OBJnoob @Kartalin @Skullstachio @Hoarcrux @FirmamentOfStars

I went to test, it's really only on the last tick, I think the recap shows the highest and most recent values, I have 42k, I'm essentially a tank, I go BG to do objectives, so I'm not interested in killing players, I resist 4 well players and distract them for a long time, but yesterday this set really killed my HP very quickly!

Note: they were from two people who only used HA, one being a warden!

The set really does its job well on tanks

I noticed this set on my pve tanks death recap when I took her into battlegrounds.
That and sloads semblance.
Guy was wearing both.

Artim_X · September 2023

Death recaps can be confusing, but as a Knight Slayer enjoyer I can assure you that only the last tick of a lightning heavy attack triggers the effect. It's good against tank builds that are willing to just hold block and not maneuver around the environment, but it is not strong enough to beat a tank build that also has strong heals.

Necrotech_Master · September 2023

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Mr_Jord_Joe wrote: »

Amerises OBJnoob Kartalin Skullstachio Hoarcrux FirmamentOfStars

I went to test, it's really only on the last tick, I think the recap shows the highest and most recent values, I have 42k, I'm essentially a tank, I go BG to do objectives, so I'm not interested in killing players, I resist 4 well players and distract them for a long time, but yesterday this set really killed my HP very quickly!

Note: they were from two people who only used HA, one being a warden!

The set really does its job well on tanks

I noticed this set on my pve tanks death recap when I took her into battlegrounds.
That and sloads semblance.
Guy was wearing both.

it makes sense to wear oblivion dmg procs in a high hp tank meta lol

oblivion dmg is %hp based, but does have a hard cap, that cap is reached when a target is at 100k hp, which if a target is getting to 50k hp, thats half of the max bonus (so sload would be 1500 dmg per sec on a 50k hp target, and knight slayer is an additional 4000 dmg per proc, all unmitigated because oblivion dmg)

heavy attacks fire at a rate of 2.1 sec, so if target was at 50k hp thats taking a minimum of 4k dmg every 2.1 sec, which is higher than most dots in pvp

Brakkish · September 2023

Pales in comparison to Snake in the Stars. If there was ever a ridiculous set, that's the one.

Necrotech_Master · September 2023

Brakkish wrote: »

Pales in comparison to Snake in the Stars. If there was ever a ridiculous set, that's the one.

eh honestly in its current form, its really meh, it was a lot more potent back when it was on the PTS before live release

theres a lot of problems with it right now, the short active window, global + per target cooldown, significant downtime

its also not good at countering burst heals, just hots

tsaescishoeshiner · October 2023

I've always liked the idea of this anti-tanking set, but I'd never seen it being effective until this patch. I think something could be up with it, perhaps a new skill or gear interaction. Not 100% sure.

I was playing on a 30-35k health character and was surprised to see the numbers so high on my death recap. I don't think the mechanics have changed, I just wonder if there's some weird unintended interaction with another effect like empower or resto staff heavies.

If it's just finally been made useful for group play, or had a bug with its damage fixed lately, then that's great.

Edit: fixed a wordie

Necrotech_Master · October 2023

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

I've always liked the idea of this anti-tanking set, but I'd never seen it being effective until this patch. I think something could be up with it, perhaps a new skill or gear interaction. Not 100% sure.

I was playing on a 30-35k health character and was surprised to see the numbers so high on my death recap. I don't think the mechanics have changed, I just wonder if there's some weird unintended interaction with another effect like empower or resto staff heavies.

If it's just finally been made useful for group play, or had a bug with its damage fixed lately, then that's great.

Edit: fixed a wordie

oblivion dmg cannot crit, or be buffed in any way because its scaled based on users max hp

if your hp is range of 30-35k, that means knight slayer was hitting you for 2400-2800 every time you got hit with a heavy attack from the person wearing it (8% of your max hp per hit) (another comparison, sload set would be hitting for 900-1050 per tick at that hp range (3% max hp dmg per tick), which was actually stronger than what it originally was when it was a fixed value, it originally was only like 647 fixed oblivion dmg)

knight slayer itself only procs on fully charged heavy (which for channels is the 3rd tick only)

other stuff like empower and normal HA sets for the most part dont work against players directly (i think they can still indirectly work through lightning staff trifocus splash, but knight slayer only works on the primary target of the heavy)

Velocious_Curse · October 2023

Honestly, Oblivion damage should have to have some sort of condition to proc imo. At least with Occult Overload, someone has to die whilst also having a status effect on them.
We're dealing with groups of 6-12 Knight Slayer groups on Xbox rn and lemme tell you...It ain't fun in the slightest lol They're all running around with 45k health and you just get 12 heavy lightnings on you and poof. you get sent to the shadow realm.

SandandStars · October 2023

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

I've always liked the idea of this anti-tanking set, but I'd never seen it being effective until this patch. I think something could be up with it, perhaps a new skill or gear interaction. Not 100% sure.

I was playing on a 30-35k health character and was surprised to see the numbers so high on my death recap. I don't think the mechanics have changed, I just wonder if there's some weird unintended interaction with another effect like empower or resto staff heavies.

If it's just finally been made useful for group play, or had a bug with its damage fixed lately, then that's great.

Edit: fixed a wordie

I’ve noticed it’s hitting harder too. Probably a new synergy someone discovered that is making its way through the cookie cutter mill.

Honestly I will take it over the Masters DW/Vatesh DK&NB clone fest. PvP in bgs is as uninteresting as it’s ever been.

Necrotech_Master · October 2023

SandandStars wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

I've always liked the idea of this anti-tanking set, but I'd never seen it being effective until this patch. I think something could be up with it, perhaps a new skill or gear interaction. Not 100% sure.

I was playing on a 30-35k health character and was surprised to see the numbers so high on my death recap. I don't think the mechanics have changed, I just wonder if there's some weird unintended interaction with another effect like empower or resto staff heavies.

If it's just finally been made useful for group play, or had a bug with its damage fixed lately, then that's great.

Edit: fixed a wordie

I’ve noticed it’s hitting harder too. Probably a new synergy someone discovered that is making its way through the cookie cutter mill.

Honestly I will take it over the Masters DW/Vatesh DK&NB clone fest. PvP in bgs is as uninteresting as it’s ever been.

its "hitting harder" because of the high hp pvp meta going on right now, oblivion dmg is fixed %hp dmg, but the numbers will be higher if your higher hp

knight slayer as in this case, is always 8% of your max hp per hit, 10 players hitting you with a heavy attack using knight slayer will do 80% of your max hp + whatever else came with the heavy attack (the heavy attack itself + possible status effect procs and weapon enchants/poisons)

the actual number is going to vary a bit based on your max hp, but 8% dmg is 8% dmg regardless of your hp

probably why more of the players are using knight slayer because that is a direct counter to a high hp meta since its fixed %hp oblivion dmg

a 12 person group running knight slayer heavy attack build hitting at the same time would be a minimum of 96% of your max hp in dmg (8% hp dmg per hit x 12 different sources), so its very likely that the heavy attack dmg itself would do the other 4% of your max hp

they could even increase the %hp oblivion dmg if they were also running decrease health enchantments (which gold quality of that enchant i think was 4.75% max hp in dmg when it proc)

so if someone was using that and knight slayer, and the enchant fired, that would be almost 13% of your max hp in dmg in 1 hit if both knight slayer and decrease health enchant fired

the actual heavy attack dmg itself is almost irrelevant if you were in a group stacking this method, but it would certainly be able to counter the high tank/high hp meta

SandandStars · October 2023

Thanks for the breakdown @Necrotech_Master , makes good sense to me. My only toon with high health (37k buffed) is a magden and that’s the one I’m seeing decent ha damage on.

Otherwise, just notice a lot more lightning ha due to destruction staff changes.

Necrotech_Master · October 2023

SandandStars wrote: »

Thanks for the breakdown @Necrotech_Master , makes good sense to me. My only toon with high health (37k buffed) is a magden and that’s the one I’m seeing decent ha damage on.

Otherwise, just notice a lot more lightning ha due to destruction staff changes.

oblivion dmg used to be fixed amounts of dmg instead of %hp, when it was changed it kind of fell out of use because the %hp did less dmg to people who had less hp (though in reality it still did the same %hp dmg, the numbers were just lower)

fast forward to today and we have high hp, high resistance meta with block tanks that can run upwards 50-60k hp, so oblivion dmg being unresistable (bypassing all forms of mitigation including undeath and blocking) is making a comeback

most oblivion dmg procs do have a hard cap on how much actual dmg they can deal per proc, but that cap is when the target is at 100k hp, which is virtually impossible for players to reach (but this also greatly limits the use of oblivion dmg in pve, because a vast majority of targets have over 100k hp and due to oblivion dmg being hp scaled, it also cannot crit, further limiting its effectiveness in pve)

the part about bypassing all forms of mitigation only goes for true oblivion dmg, something like hrothgars which specifically does frost dmg and says it ignores resistances can still be impacted by mitigation like major/minor protection, undeath, and major/minor evasion

Amerises · October 2023

Any organized group is going to do more damage and be more efficient than 6-12 people running Knight Slayer. The original post is a not combat metric, it’s a death recap, which stacks previous damages of the same together (i.e. Knight Slayer), and it was all from the same person. The set is not OP, and no one is running it in any organized way.

Again, if it BEST we’re talking about 13% HP, plus a skill and heavy attack damage, you may take 15k TOTAL every 2.2 seconds. It would take 6.6 seconds of heavy attacking to kill your average target who is standing still with no HoTs and average HP and resistances. While all skills land, channel isn’t broken, target stays in range, you’re not CC’d, they do not heal for the entire time, AND your weaving is flawless. I’d wager you’re closer to 7-8 seconds on a stationary, unbuffed target. And no, two or three people using the set (which 3 people are never using it) doesn’t make it 3 seconds, MAYBE 4, on a SINGLE, STATIONARY, UNBUFFED target. If it takes 4 seconds for 3 DPS to kill a single stationary unbuffed target, you’re doing it wrong.