Races - Do you think we need another Race balance pass?

Twohothardware

With the changes the last several patch cycles to hybridize the Classes in the game do you think we need some Race rebalancing? Some meta classes like Dark Elf for example provide both max stamina and max magicka as well as 256 spell and weapon damage. Other Races like Breton however only provide Magicka passives as well as Redguard only providing Stamina passives. Dark elf is also above both races in dps.

SkaraMinoc

Yes

Some PvP perspective.

Khajiit - Feline Ambush
Increases your Critical Damage and Critical Healing by 12%.

This is so far ahead in terms of raw damage output with Mechanical Acuity or Nightblade. 258 wd/sd doesn't come close and Wood Elf's 958 penetration is even further behind. If there's a balance pass, Khajiit needs a nerf.

Argonian - Life Mender
Increases your healing done by 6%.

The % healing from this passive with +1000 magicka from the Resourceful passive is still less healing than +258 wd/sd and +2000 magicka from both Dark and High Elf. In other words, Argonian is the 3rd best healer in terms of raw healing from racial passives and it's misleading for a race that has a dedicated healing passive.

Breton - Spell Attunement
Increases your Spell Resistance by 2310. This effect is doubled if you are afflicted with Burning, Chilled, or Concussed.

This is equivalent to 7% spell damage reduction, assuming no Corrosive/Onslaught. This might have been balanced 3-4 years ago but now that every single PvP fight is loaded with status effects, Breton has a guaranteed 7% reduction.

Redguard is in a bad place. Most players don't need the reduced cost to weapon skills. The Adrenaline Rush passive only restores stamina and should restore magicka as well. The 15% snare reduction from Martial Training doesn't apply to Sea-Serpent Coil and snares aren't much of an issue anyway with Race Against Time and Snow Treaders.

Rkindaleft

Yes.

I agree that races need some individuality but there are races that are practically useless in the endgame in both PvE and PvP.
For example, both Redguard and Wood Elf have no passives that buff their damage other than their increased stamina, which also hasn't been modernized to fit with the rest of the races so they're both completely useless as Magicka specs and are both still bottom of the barrel as DPS for stamina specs when they have to compete with Dark Elfs, Orcs, Khajiits or even High Elfs since those all have been hybridized.

When High Elf does better at stamina DPS than Redguard which by lore are the most talented warriors in Tamriel, there's definitely something that needs to be looked at.

Mr_Jord_Joe

Yes

I think that Argonians, because they have scales and tougher skin, should have a resistance buff in their passives!

The Imperials, obviously having had influence over all of Tamriel, and knowledge about many aspects of combat, politics, magic, knowledge, should be the most versatile race of all in their passives...

Twohothardware

Yes

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Some PvP perspective.

Breton - Spell Attunement
Increases your Spell Resistance by 2310. This effect is doubled if you are afflicted with Burning, Chilled, or Concussed.

This is equivalent to 7% spell damage reduction, assuming no Corrosive/Onslaught. This might have been balanced 3-4 years ago but now that every single PvP fight is loaded with status effects, Breton has a guaranteed 7% reduction

Keep in mind that Dark Elf also gets 4620 flame damage reduction and that majority of spell damage done in PvP right now is fire because everyone is a DK.

Breton is my favorite race and I don’t like how it keeps falling further behind in end game dps now that builds have gone hybrid and recovery is less important. Dark Elf and Khajiit can both parse top dps as magicka or stamina.

OtarTheMad

No

I’d say no honestly. Unless you are min-maxing race doesn’t really matter.

You don’t need to min-max to do content in this game, it’s just at some point in the past, I don’t know when or why, but things shifted and the thoughts of players became:

“If you want to do magicka dps you need x, y, z race”
“If you want to heal you need…”
“If you want a tank you should be x,y,z”
“These races are trash..”

It’s like we put limits on ourselves when honestly only one part of the game is it recommended to be certain races and that’s only really the truly hard stuff.

Freelancer_ESO

No

My impression is that attempts in the past haven't gone over well and that the gaps aren't that large.

jommerryrth

wood elves need some love. i have a redguard stamplar healer with 2h and d/w setup and it's my most fun to play pve but since i dont do much pvp i cant sat how she'd really do there. She wasnt meant to be my first crafter but because it's more fun to play than my nb or my warden heealer, she close to finishing her skill ppoints for crafting. i have done all the dlc and alliance zone group events for skill points except for telvani pennisula b/c i dont own that dlc and eso plus doesn't provide it. for an account that really only started playing at the end of july it's looking pretty good.

so i digress. reduard seems fun here. i would always pick khajiit over wood elf because they are i the same alliance. maybe if woodelf were in a dif alliance i could justify playing them but no matter what you do to balance them they will lose out against khajiit for me and most others would prefer altmer. Best chance wood elf has is being swapped out with another alliance.

jommerryrth

what we really need is a wood elf dlc to make them interesting. find fallenesti or explain where they went.... something.

WoppaBoem

Only thing we need is that we can change race in game without spending crowns OR make race purely cosmetic and remove all passives. Its wrong that part of the build in locked behind a paywall.

TaSheen

No

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I’d say no honestly. Unless you are min-maxing race doesn’t really matter.

You don’t need to min-max to do content in this game, it’s just at some point in the past, I don’t know when or why, but things shifted and the thoughts of players became:

“If you want to do magicka dps you need x, y, z race”
“If you want to heal you need…”
“If you want a tank you should be x,y,z”
“These races are trash..”

It’s like we put limits on ourselves when honestly only one part of the game is it recommended to be certain races and that’s only really the truly hard stuff.

This.

Four_Fingers

No

People still haven't learned to be careful what they ask ZOS for.

TaSheen

No

Four_Fingers wrote: »

People still haven't learned to be careful what they ask ZOS for.

If I could give you a million awesomes, I would.

Alaztor91

Yes

IIRC the last major racial passive changes(when they gave you 3 free race change tokens) were done before all the hybridization nonsense. Seems like the usual ZOS tactic of leaving stuff untouched for months/years after doing major changes to the game(hybridization in this case) and hoping that people won't care/notice. See Mages Guild vs Fighters Guild for a similar example.

BlueRaven

Yes

Bosmers need stealth.

KlauthWarthog

Yes

We need more combat change drama in the forums.

FantasticFreddie

Yes

PLEASE NOTE I DO NOT WANT ANY RACES NERFED

I would love to see Argonian, Redguard, and Bosmer buffed in lore-appropriate ways. Make them situationally able to compete with other races for dps.

KlauthWarthog

Yes

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Some PvP perspective.

Khajiit - Feline Ambush
Increases your Critical Damage and Critical Healing by 12%.

This is so far ahead in terms of raw damage output with Mechanical Acuity or Nightblade. 258 wd/sd doesn't come close and Wood Elf's 958 penetration is even further behind. If there's a balance pass, Khajiit needs a nerf.

Conversely, in PvE land, with meta gear and support buffs and debuffs, that passive flat out does not exist, due to the crit damage cap.
So yes, just change it to 258 wd/sd and call it a day. The original excuse of wanting the racial passives to feel unique has gone the way of the dodo with hybridization anyway.

Major_Toughness

Yes

IMHO Khajiit, Dunmer, Altmer, Orc & Imperial are all fine.

Because sustain races not being a thing in PvE at all, the following are from a PvP perspective. (Bosmer, Breton, Redguard)

Since hybridisation most builds have a mix of magicka and stamina costing skills which decreases the value of any race which has only one of stamina/magicka recovery or cost reduction.

Nord is difficult, used to BIS in PvP before resistances nerf. Is still strong for PvE tanking however any PvP buff would be unlikely to change this, just don't make it worse.

Argonian is nice as a PvP healer as the triple stat restore makes running armour or immovable potions much more sustainable. However for raw healing output it is worse than "damage" races.

Redguard is in a class of its own and has basically no redeeming factors. Completely obsolete race.

AlterBlika

Twohothardware wrote: »

Other Races like Breton however only provide Magicka passives as well as Redguard only providing Stamina passives. Dark elf is also above both races in dps.

Dark elf doesn't provide any sustain unlike breton or regduard so obviously they're going to be better at something else

Major_Toughness

Yes

KlauthWarthog wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Some PvP perspective.

Khajiit - Feline Ambush
Increases your Critical Damage and Critical Healing by 12%.

This is so far ahead in terms of raw damage output with Mechanical Acuity or Nightblade. 258 wd/sd doesn't come close and Wood Elf's 958 penetration is even further behind. If there's a balance pass, Khajiit needs a nerf.

Conversely, in PvE land, with meta gear and support buffs and debuffs, that passive flat out does not exist, due to the crit damage cap.
So yes, just change it to 258 wd/sd and call it a day. The original excuse of wanting the racial passives to feel unique has gone the way of the dodo with hybridization anyway.

Khajiit is still BIS in 4 man content AFAIK.

As you are unlikely to have Catalyst and 100% uptime on Major Force.

But yes for optimised trials it is obsolete.

Twohothardware

Yes

AlterBlika wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Other Races like Breton however only provide Magicka passives as well as Redguard only providing Stamina passives. Dark elf is also above both races in dps.

Dark elf doesn't provide any sustain unlike breton or regduard so obviously they're going to be better at something else

Sustain isn’t necessary like it used to be because you can slot both magicka and stamina damage skills. Bretons 7% magicka cost reduction is also not nearly as good as Imperials 6% reduction for all of your abilities including ultimate.

Warhawke_80

I think we need to let Races be unique and have positives and negatives, if anything we need to get rid of classes and the Trinity and make ESO a True TES game...we have jacked up the Racial profiles and Jobs to cater to what 4% of the players that Raid?

It's silly.

AlterBlika

Twohothardware wrote: »

Sustain isn’t necessary like it used to be because you can slot both magicka and stamina damage skills. Bretons 7% magicka cost reduction is also not nearly as good as Imperials 6% reduction for all of your abilities including ultimate.

You need sustain when solo. If you're not into it, you just pick a dps race. It's like asking nord to get damage passives when they're clearly not meant to be a dps race.
Bretons also have another sustain passive and max magicka for mag builds, unlike imperials. They're fine imo, I'm only concerned with very niche redguards.

Auzsi

Yes

I voted yes, but i don't really like the idea of another balance pass, beacause all they will do is shuffle things around without solving any existing problem. the concept of the current racials is just bad and overall poorly designed. They just force players to choose between an optimized build or the character they wants to play, without actually giving any individuality to the races with them, while often conflicting with lore.They should design perks which are fun, unique and not dictating a meta game. It's not an impossible task. Worth to mention some races got passives which can be almost 100% useless (bosmer, argonian for example) which adds another layer of problem.

But it's obvious they are unwilling the axe the system (khm khm race change tokens khm) at least they should do something, because right now 10 out of 10 dps build using dunmer and there are no reason why should you pick anything else. Diversity is very important for a healthy endgame ecosystem and player retention, and it's right now on the rock bottom.

They noticed the diversity problem with weapons and they tried to do something, so there is some hope they will do something with races at some point. But i personally don't really trust the combat team and their talents, so i think if there will any be race balance changes it will be another flop.

Gibrans

No

Race doesn't even matter unless you're about min-maxing which most of the community is not.

Auzsi

Yes

Gibrans wrote: »

Race doesn't even matter unless you're about min-maxing which most of the community is not.

Then why does it matter for you if they remove them or change them?

Froil

Yes

I don't think any races need nerfs, but the "weaker" ones need buffs.

Zodiarkslayer

Yes

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I’d say no honestly. Unless you are min-maxing race doesn’t really matter.

You don’t need to min-max to do content in this game, it’s just at some point in the past, I don’t know when or why, but things shifted and the thoughts of players became:

“If you want to do magicka dps you need x, y, z race”
“If you want to heal you need…”
“If you want a tank you should be x,y,z”
“These races are trash..”

It’s like we put limits on ourselves when honestly only one part of the game is it recommended to be certain races and that’s only really the truly hard stuff.

Funnily enough, I agree with this statement, but I draw a different conclusion.

While I think that it is the damage doctrine that focuses the view too narrow, it is still no reason to have two or three races massively at a disadvantage.

Gibrans

No

Auzsi wrote: »

Gibrans wrote: »

Race doesn't even matter unless you're about min-maxing which most of the community is not.

Then why does it matter for you if they remove them or change them?

It doesn't solve the issue that some races will be better for certain roles in terms of min-maxing, in order to level the playing field you'd have to simply make all the combat passives the same or simply get rid of them all together.

Tommy_The_Gun

Yes

Argonian, Wood Elf and Redguard need a tiny buff. The rest are fine.