Lore-Wise, Could The Argonians Have Joined Another Faction?

psychotrip

This is an expansion on another topic I made last year (which I wont link since it pissed everyone off XD)

I know that, from a meta perspective, ZOS wanted all the factions to be right next to each other.

But in real life, military alliances can exist even if the nations arent literally touching each other.

So, from a strictly in-universe perspective, was the Ebonheart Pact the only option the Argonians had? I understand teaming up to fight the Akaviri. That was a matter of immediate survival. But was joining up with your former (and obviously future) slavers, while making 6 new enemies in the process, the best and only option?

What if the Argonians agreed to give another faction access to the border with Morrowind in exchange for military defense against the dunmer? Another alliance would have full access to Morrowind's doorstep, with an impenetrable (arguably unconquerable) swamp at their rear, and thousands of friendly guides to keep them safe during a retreat.

I'm nowhere NEAR a military expert, but that seems like a better plan to me.

The Argonians get to ensure their freedom without relying on the consent of their former slave masters. Isnt that the better deal?

But which faction would accept them? Thats the big question, I think. The AD is clearly more tolerant than its Skyrim iteration, but I can see people not finding it realistic.

DC maybe? If the redguards and bretons can settle differences with their greatest rivals (the orcs), and learn to see them as people, surely they would do the same for the Argonians, whom they've never had conflict with before.

LunaFlora

aldmeri dominion's elsweyr is the closest to black marsh after morrowind.
plus there's an argonian village in grahtwood.

it seems realistic to me, the only area in the way is nibenay though they could always be connected through water as well.

though shadowfen has a few bad aldmeri dominion soldiers, the only people that would probably make it hard for some argonians to want to be in the AD.

daggerfall covenant is incredibly far away so that i find unrealistic

VaranisArano

Are you looking for an alternate history idea where this happened or an in-depth discussion of all the lore reasons why Keshu the Black Fin helped create the Pact and probably never even considered allying with High King Emeric or new-queen-on-the-block Ayrenn?

psychotrip

VaranisArano wrote: »

Are you looking for an alternate history idea where this happened or an in-depth discussion of all the lore reasons why Keshu the Black Fin helped create the Pact and probably never even considered allying with High King Emeric or new-queen-on-the-block Ayrenn?

Mostly the former. You and I have discussed the latter intently. We will never see eye to eye on this, lol.

It will always be gross to me knowing Keshu stayed loyal to their former slavemasters, somehow not realizing the elves who literally worshiped a god of deceit for eons would betray them down the line. Not even considering an alliance with the other factions is moronic to me in light of this. No other faction has hurt the argonians more than Morrowind. If there were any other options available, it was stupid not to consider them.

The whole thing smacks of minimizing the unforgivable evil of enslavement, and implying that enslaved peoples are better off working with their own former slave masters (who clearly learned nothing as a people if their children and grandchildren are fine with enslaving them again), and are too stupid to realize they'll be betrayed. Obviously this wasnt the intent, but bad writing leads to bad implications.

Edit: before anyone makes real-life comparisons, I'm not saying you cant ever forgive the descendents of slave-masters. But they have to...you know...show that they, as a culture, have learned their lesson? Its clear that SOME of them learned, but its clear (to us at least) that the dunmer, on the whole, did not learn their lesson. In-universe, the signs of this are also clear, at least in my eyes.

If a culture is capable of reverting to chattel slavery after seeing constant proof that their former slaves are people, then not only did they not learn anything as a nation, but they seem even more evil because they dont have any excuses anymore.

psychotrip

LunaFlora wrote: »

aldmeri dominion's elsweyr is the closest to black marsh after morrowind.
plus there's an argonian village in grahtwood.

it seems realistic to me, the only area in the way is nibenay though they could always be connected through water as well.

though shadowfen has a few bad aldmeri dominion soldiers, the only people that would probably make it hard for some argonians to want to be in the AD.

daggerfall covenant is incredibly far away so that i find unrealistic

Why does being far away make it unrealistic? I dont think this is how alliances work? NATO countries arent all close together. The US has an alliance with Israel miles away. Is this just a product of modern history? I've never heard of this idea that military alliances have to be next to each other.

Wouldnt it be advantagous to have access to your enemy's doorstep? And to cut off trade and safe passage to an entire region?

That said, I do agree with your point that an alliancw with the AD is "possible". Maybe I dismissed it too quickly. I recall hearing some Altmer lady on Auridon (Firsthold perhaps?) talking smack about Argonians. But that could just be propaganda invented after they joined the pact to justify going to war with them.

I'm mostly focusing on the Covenant because they have a history of working with perceived "monsters" (orcs) and because I cant recall them ever being mean to the argonians before they joined the pact.

LunaFlora

psychotrip wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

aldmeri dominion's elsweyr is the closest to black marsh after morrowind.
plus there's an argonian village in grahtwood.

it seems realistic to me, the only area in the way is nibenay though they could always be connected through water as well.

though shadowfen has a few bad aldmeri dominion soldiers, the only people that would probably make it hard for some argonians to want to be in the AD.

daggerfall covenant is incredibly far away so that i find unrealistic

Why does being far away make it unrealistic? I dont think this is how alliances work? NATO countries arent all close together. The US has an alliance with Israel miles away. Is this just a product of modern history? I've never heard of this idea that military alliances have to be next to each other.

Wouldnt it be advantagous to have access to your enemy's doorstep? And to cut off trade and safe passage to an entire region?

That said, I do agree with your point that an alliancw with the AD is "possible". Maybe I dismissed it too quickly. I recall hearing some Altmer lady on Auridon (Firsthold perhaps?) talking smack about Argonians. But that could just be propaganda invented after they joined the pact to justify going to war with them.

I'm mostly focusing on the Covenant because they have a history of working with perceived "monsters" (orcs) and because I cant recall them ever being mean to the argonians before they joined the pact.

khajiit have also been perceived like beasts just like argonians and have been enslaved by dunmer too.

the covenant being far away is to me different in elder scrolls than in our world.
most argonians seem to either stay in black marsh or go to nearby regions(which has happened forcefully a lot of the time).

the farthest argonian settlements that i know of are in grahtwood and bal foyen, the first being refugees and the second formerly enslaved argonians.

i am referring to Gray Mire in Grahtwood btw
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Scars_Never_Fade
it did have a few argonians who wanted to attack the dominion due to believing altmer would enslave them like dunmer, but if you convince the dominion officer involved in the quest that the tribe means no harm they can stay in Grahtwood.


and despite orcs being in the covenant they have not been treated kindly by the bretons and redguards in the past.

i also can't recall the covenant being mean to argonians, i think it's also less likely to happen due to distance though.
covenant ships would have to pass by the dominion (possibly maormeri ships too) to travel to black marsh to help or attack them.

isn't it just a modern thing from the last few centuries though? the nato and united nations are less than a century old and only formed after world war 2.
there were a few international alliances in the world wars like Germany/Japan and France/Russia, but did it happen that often before the 1800's?

maybe im wrong about the dominion being a better choice than the covenant.

though i do believe the covenant and the dominion are both better choices for the argonians compared to any alliance with Morrowind.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Yeah the Argonians being allied with the Dunmer always felt shoe-horned to me. Pretty much everyone has attacked everyone else at some point, but the Dunmer-Argonian relationship has easily been among the worst. I’ve wondered before if the game was originally intended to be in the Fourth Era, and this was a side effect.

psychotrip wrote: »

Edit: before anyone makes real-life comparisons, I'm not saying you cant ever forgive the descendents of slave-masters.

With Dunmer lifespans being what they are most of them aren’t going to be merely descendants.

psychotrip wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

aldmeri dominion's elsweyr is the closest to black marsh after morrowind.
plus there's an argonian village in grahtwood.

it seems realistic to me, the only area in the way is nibenay though they could always be connected through water as well.

though shadowfen has a few bad aldmeri dominion soldiers, the only people that would probably make it hard for some argonians to want to be in the AD.

daggerfall covenant is incredibly far away so that i find unrealistic

Why does being far away make it unrealistic? I dont think this is how alliances work? NATO countries arent all close together. The US has an alliance with Israel miles away. Is this just a product of modern history? I've never heard of this idea that military alliances have to be next to each other.

Wouldnt it be advantagous to have access to your enemy's doorstep? And to cut off trade and safe passage to an entire region?

That said, I do agree with your point that an alliancw with the AD is "possible". Maybe I dismissed it too quickly. I recall hearing some Altmer lady on Auridon (Firsthold perhaps?) talking smack about Argonians. But that could just be propaganda invented after they joined the pact to justify going to war with them.

I'm mostly focusing on the Covenant because they have a history of working with perceived "monsters" (orcs) and because I cant recall them ever being mean to the argonians before they joined the pact.

The Altmer talking smack is Cirantille. More concerning to me would be the Khajiit slavers in Deshaan, though I don’t think they were affiliated with the Dominion. Other than that I don’t know of any major reason they couldn’t be allies; culturally speaking the Altmer don’t like visitors and the Argonians keep to themselves, if anything they should get along better than some of the other factions in the game do.

That said, Daggerfall Covenant might be farther away but they do have ships, and Black Marsh has a coastline, and the Dunmer are perfectly happy to enslave the Bretons too if they get the chance. (Also the Covenant have better-than-average ships, since we have a quest for them to get some shipbuilding improvement plans, and if the Dunmer can get to Stormhaven through hostile patrols just to enslave the citizenry there, I see no reason why the Bretons couldn’t make mostly the same trip in reverse when the people on the other end of it are friendly.)

VaranisArano

psychotrip wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Are you looking for an alternate history idea where this happened or an in-depth discussion of all the lore reasons why Keshu the Black Fin helped create the Pact and probably never even considered allying with High King Emeric or new-queen-on-the-block Ayrenn?

Mostly the former. You and I have discussed the latter intently. We will never see eye to eye on this, lol.

It will always be gross to me knowing Keshu stayed loyal to their former slavemasters, somehow not realizing the elves who literally worshiped a god of deceit for eons would betray them down the line. Not even considering an alliance with the other factions is moronic to me in light of this. No other faction has hurt the argonians more than Morrowind. If there were any other options available, it was stupid not to consider them.

The whole thing smacks of minimizing the unforgivable evil of enslavement, and implying that enslaved peoples are better off working with their own former slave masters (who clearly learned nothing as a people if their children and grandchildren are fine with enslaving them again), and are too stupid to realize they'll be betrayed. Obviously this wasnt the intent, but bad writing leads to bad implications.

Edit: before anyone makes real-life comparisons, I'm not saying you cant ever forgive the descendents of slave-masters. But they have to...you know...show that they, as a culture, have learned their lesson? Its clear that SOME of them learned, but its clear (to us at least) that the dunmer, on the whole, did not learn their lesson. In-universe, the signs of this are also clear, at least in my eyes.

If a culture is capable of reverting to chattel slavery after seeing constant proof that their former slaves are people, then not only did they not learn anything as a nation, but they seem even more evil because they dont have any excuses anymore.

Then I'll spare you the very long post on why, when Keshu agreed to form the Pact 10 years prior to ESO with the condition that the Tribunal would free the Argonians, she didn't join up with Emeric's Daggerfall Covenant. The Dominion didn't even exist yet.

Also, yes, the Dunmer are evil. (Was that in doubt?) And the unfortunate implications of Keshu's diplomatic solutions not working in the 2nd Era resulting in the 4th Era Saxheel invasion post-Red Year making sure the Dunmer weren't in a position to take slaves again were almost certainly intentional on the part of the writers. Accommodation does not usually work out well, historically. With the history of 3rd Era slavery set in stone, ESO had no choice but to do a downer ending to Keshu's ambitions.

...............

So let's talk alternate history.

The Argonians are not a monolith. Let me say that again: NOT a monolith. They are a tribal society where each tribe operates fairly independently under the guidance of their Hist Tree. A substantial coalition of tribes has united under Heita-Meen and Keshu the Black Fin with the goal of elevating Argonian society back to the level of building the xanmeers/nation-building again. A large number of tribes don't agree or don't care.

Therefore, for the purposes of alternate history (AH), we are primarily concerned with Keshu the Black Fin and her Black Fin Legion, seeing as how she is the premier Argonian commander and the only one with an organized military in Black Marsh. Since in ESO Keshu successfully led the Pact Army for ten years and in Cyrodiil, we can safely assume that she is the equal of any other alliance's Grand Warlord. That being said, she's not capable of ending the stalemate in Cyrodiil. Nor could she conquer the Dunmer Heartland and defend her homeland, seeing as how she has only the one army.

Canon

Sorry, gotta briefly discuss the Canon so we know where we're diverging.

Dunmer have been raiding, pillaging, and slave-taking along the border with Black Marsh. Though Keshu has the Black Fin Legion, raiding is difficult for an organized military to counter. Rather than engaging the Dunmer militarily, Keshu seeks a diplomatic solution by joining the Pact with the condition that the Tribunal will free the Argonians. This frees up the Black Fin Legion for other uses, notably in ESO where we see that the Pact is defending Shadowfen while Keshu and the Black Fin Legion defend Black Marsh's western border in Blackwood.

Point of Divergence

Lets play with a classic AH trope: the general who gets a vision of the bad future.

Keshu gets a vision from the Hist in which she sees that the tribes are not going to follow her example and thus are going to get rolled over by the Dunmer as soon as the Pact is over. So she jettisons Plan A and goes with Plan B: defend Black Marsh militarily herself.

(She cannot reasonably ask a foreign power in to guard the Shadowfen border. For one, you don't just invite in a foreign power - that's how you end up as a client state. For another, her Black Fin Legion is going to do a better job than anyone else.)

Her goals must be to defend Black Marsh, free what slaves she can in Dunmer territory, and find allies who can pressure the Dunmer.

Scenario #1: Alliance with the Nords

Keshu is friends with Jorunn, who becomes king during the Akaviri crisis. Once she decides to engage the Dunmer militarily rather than diplomatically, she offers him a military alliance to quash the Dunmer in between them following the explosion of the Akaviri.

Being as how this is AH, we'll say that Jorunn agrees (he probably wouldn't agree in canon, seeing as how Skyrim got hit hard by the Akaviri and he probably couldn't jump into another war so soon). The added pressure of having to guard their borders with Skyrim means that the Dunmer may not be able to raid Black Marsh.

Ramifications: With Keshu locked in a border war with the Dunmer, she's protecting her people along one front. However, when the Planemeld happens, she can't split her forces between Shadowfen and Blackwood, with the result that chaos from the Imperial Heartland spills on through into Southern Black Marsh. Especially if the war sets off the Sul-Xan tribe.

Scenario #2: Alliance with Duke Varen/Elder Council

Once Keshu engages the Dunmer militarily rather than diplomatically, she has to consider her other flanks. Cyrodiil is in a state of periodic unrest, so she seeks out the sources of stability: the Elder Council. She may be reluctant since Emperor Leovic has a bad reputation, but Emperor Varen almost certainly would've been amenable to an alliance...until the Planemeld.

Ramifications: Keshu probably gets drawn into the Cyrodiil conflicts anyway, where her Black Fin Legion plays (desired by some) 4th faction of otherwise unaligned players. Her goals are to support the legitimate authorities in Blackwood, since that's along her border. The real question is how the Dunmer and Nords react to both the Covenant and the Dominion declaring that they want the Ruby Throne and intend to reestablish a new empire with themselves at the head.

Scenario #3: Long distance alliance with the Covenant

The Covenant gets first crack because unlike the Dominion, they actually exist at the 2E 572. However, they pretty much exist in order to keep High King Emeric on the throne of Daggerfall, so they probably wouldn't have an ideological reason to care about Keshu.

However, in Canon 2E 573, Keshu would've fought raiders rumored to be funded by the Covanant (possibly even Covenant soldiers in disguise) and defeated them on behalf of the Pact. So we see that Emeric was possibly interested in interfering with the defensive Pact.

He'd probably have taken the opportunity offered by Keshu, but I strongly suspect that his support would've been limited to funds. Possibly some naval/privateer support once the Three Banners War started, and he would've expected Keshu to actively cut Dunmer supply lines to support his Stonefalls invasion.

Ramifications: being on the far side of the continent, Keshu and Emeric can do little to directly support each other's immediate goals. Additionally, an alliance with Emeric is a problem for her friend Jorunn, and eventually a problem for any Imperial allies.

Scenario #4: Alliance with the Dominion

This is the least likely, because the Dominion doesn't exist until 2E 580, by which point a smart Keshu has had other alliances for years. Also, Ayrenn is a young, untested Queen who's got a shaky grasp on her throne and her army. Keshu has more experience in her little finger than Ayrenn does.

While the Dominion would give Keshu a larger naval reach which is something she badly lacks, I think it's very unlikely that Keshu would seriously consider allying herself to Ayrenn's Dominion.

Scenario #5: a Unified Black Marsh

While we're playing around with AH, let's go whole hog and propose that Keshu and Vice-Canon Heita-Meen manage to convince more of the tribes and the Hist to support their cause. While in Canon, "you're going to be enslaved by raiding dunmer unless we do something different" was not sufficiently motivating for most tribes to sign up with an organized military, this time Keshu speaks with the authority of the Hist from her vision. The tribes listen.

Walks-In-Ash now commands this second Legion. She's not as good a commander as Keshu, but at least equal to General Tanval Indoril. This gives Keshu a second military force to guard another flank or deal with recalcitrant tribes.

Meanwhile, the newly militarized tribes start chewing up Dunmer raiding parties and spitting them out. The Dunmer shift to other sources of slaves (as we see them do in Stonefalls.)

Ramifications: realistically, Keshu is well set up to defend Black Marsh at this point. She probably can't overextend into an invasion of Morrowind though, especially when the Planemeld happens and throws much of Tamriel into chaos. However, she is well-placed to play support or spoiler for anyone invading Morrowind and probably makes quick strikes into their territory to free Argonian slaves.

..............................

Assessment

Now that I've written a huge post with ideas, let me tear them down a little. Because despite having these ideas for how the writers could've done it, I don't think they were dumb or wrong for choosing not to.

We can see how far the scenarios diverge from the Gameplay requirements of the MMORPG that the Devs and writers wanted to make. Fundamentally, this is a video game. If it doesn't work as a game, we don't get these stories.

Scenario #5 is certainly the most "feel good" of the AH scenarios. I kind of want to write a fanfic about it now... (Assuming that one thinks that radically transforming one's society militarily and ideologically to better defend oneself is an unalloyed good thing. Historically, it's complicated in both short and long term.)

However, from a story-telling perspective, #5 also the one that makes more sense in a TES X: Black Marsh, and not in a game centered around the whole continent. It's extremely Argonian-centric, which works really well in a single player game, and doesn't work in an MMORPG where you're going to have every race and faction be playable.

From the Loremaster's perspective, we can also see that Scenario #5 diverges from the isolated, tribal, and "go-with-the-flow" ideology that characterized ESO's take on the Argonians.

The Shaggy Dog Story

The principle conceit of Alternate History is that the future can change following the Point of Divergence.

However, the Elder Scrolls have future fixed points of canonicity in the 3rd and 4th Era.

Therefore, no matter what anyone did in ESO, the Loremaster and writers were bound by Canon to explain why the Argonians were enslaved throughout the 3rd Era, leading to TES 3 and the Saxheel invasion after Red Year.

Therefore, even if Keshu did pull off Scenario #5, the nascent nation of Black Marsh later got crushed back into the metaphorical
bedrock, its citizens put in chains, and Dunmer slave-raids continued under Imperial auspices for over four centuries.

I'll leave it to the reader to determine if that ending is better or worse than the end of the Pact in Canon.

Tl;dr: Keshu could've sought other alliances, but whether or not it'd be a better deal depends, and even in the best case scenario, the Argonians were doomed by TES 3 to centuries of enslavement. Yes, it sucks.

Anyways, it's been an interesting thought exercise, so thanks! Feel free to argue over the various scenarios as much as y'all like.

psychotrip

VaranisArano wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Are you looking for an alternate history idea where this happened or an in-depth discussion of all the lore reasons why Keshu the Black Fin helped create the Pact and probably never even considered allying with High King Emeric or new-queen-on-the-block Ayrenn?

Mostly the former. You and I have discussed the latter intently. We will never see eye to eye on this, lol.

It will always be gross to me knowing Keshu stayed loyal to their former slavemasters, somehow not realizing the elves who literally worshiped a god of deceit for eons would betray them down the line. Not even considering an alliance with the other factions is moronic to me in light of this. No other faction has hurt the argonians more than Morrowind. If there were any other options available, it was stupid not to consider them.

The whole thing smacks of minimizing the unforgivable evil of enslavement, and implying that enslaved peoples are better off working with their own former slave masters (who clearly learned nothing as a people if their children and grandchildren are fine with enslaving them again), and are too stupid to realize they'll be betrayed. Obviously this wasnt the intent, but bad writing leads to bad implications.

Edit: before anyone makes real-life comparisons, I'm not saying you cant ever forgive the descendents of slave-masters. But they have to...you know...show that they, as a culture, have learned their lesson? Its clear that SOME of them learned, but its clear (to us at least) that the dunmer, on the whole, did not learn their lesson. In-universe, the signs of this are also clear, at least in my eyes.

If a culture is capable of reverting to chattel slavery after seeing constant proof that their former slaves are people, then not only did they not learn anything as a nation, but they seem even more evil because they dont have any excuses anymore.

Then I'll spare you the very long post on why, when Keshu agreed to form the Pact 10 years prior to ESO with the condition that the Tribunal would free the Argonians, she didn't join up with Emeric's Daggerfall Covenant. The Dominion didn't even exist yet.

Also, yes, the Dunmer are evil. (Was that in doubt?) And the unfortunate implications of Keshu's diplomatic solutions not working in the 2nd Era resulting in the 4th Era Saxheel invasion post-Red Year making sure the Dunmer weren't in a position to take slaves again were almost certainly intentional on the part of the writers. Accommodation does not usually work out well, historically. With the history of 3rd Era slavery set in stone, ESO had no choice but to do a downer ending to Keshu's ambitions.

...............

So let's talk alternate history.

The Argonians are not a monolith. Let me say that again: NOT a monolith. They are a tribal society where each tribe operates fairly independently under the guidance of their Hist Tree. A substantial coalition of tribes has united under Heita-Meen and Keshu the Black Fin with the goal of elevating Argonian society back to the level of building the xanmeers/nation-building again. A large number of tribes don't agree or don't care.

Therefore, for the purposes of alternate history (AH), we are primarily concerned with Keshu the Black Fin and her Black Fin Legion, seeing as how she is the premier Argonian commander and the only one with an organized military in Black Marsh. Since in ESO Keshu successfully led the Pact Army for ten years and in Cyrodiil, we can safely assume that she is the equal of any other alliance's Grand Warlord. That being said, she's not capable of ending the stalemate in Cyrodiil. Nor could she conquer the Dunmer Heartland and defend her homeland, seeing as how she has only the one army.

Canon

Sorry, gotta briefly discuss the Canon so we know where we're diverging.

Dunmer have been raiding, pillaging, and slave-taking along the border with Black Marsh. Though Keshu has the Black Fin Legion, raiding is difficult for an organized military to counter. Rather than engaging the Dunmer militarily, Keshu seeks a diplomatic solution by joining the Pact with the condition that the Tribunal will free the Argonians. This frees up the Black Fin Legion for other uses, notably in ESO where we see that the Pact is defending Shadowfen while Keshu and the Black Fin Legion defend Black Marsh's western border in Blackwood.

Point of Divergence

Lets play with a classic AH trope: the general who gets a vision of the bad future.

Keshu gets a vision from the Hist in which she sees that the tribes are not going to follow her example and thus are going to get rolled over by the Dunmer as soon as the Pact is over. So she jettisons Plan A and goes with Plan B: defend Black Marsh militarily herself.

(She cannot reasonably ask a foreign power in to guard the Shadowfen border. For one, you don't just invite in a foreign power - that's how you end up as a client state. For another, her Black Fin Legion is going to do a better job than anyone else.)

Her goals must be to defend Black Marsh, free what slaves she can in Dunmer territory, and find allies who can pressure the Dunmer.

Scenario #1: Alliance with the Nords

Keshu is friends with Jorunn, who becomes king during the Akaviri crisis. Once she decides to engage the Dunmer militarily rather than diplomatically, she offers him a military alliance to quash the Dunmer in between them following the explosion of the Akaviri.

Being as how this is AH, we'll say that Jorunn agrees (he probably wouldn't agree in canon, seeing as how Skyrim got hit hard by the Akaviri and he probably couldn't jump into another war so soon). The added pressure of having to guard their borders with Skyrim means that the Dunmer may not be able to raid Black Marsh.

Ramifications: With Keshu locked in a border war with the Dunmer, she's protecting her people along one front. However, when the Planemeld happens, she can't split her forces between Shadowfen and Blackwood, with the result that chaos from the Imperial Heartland spills on through into Southern Black Marsh. Especially if the war sets off the Sul-Xan tribe.

Scenario #2: Alliance with Duke Varen/Elder Council

Once Keshu engages the Dunmer militarily rather than diplomatically, she has to consider her other flanks. Cyrodiil is in a state of periodic unrest, so she seeks out the sources of stability: the Elder Council. She may be reluctant since Emperor Leovic has a bad reputation, but Emperor Varen almost certainly would've been amenable to an alliance...until the Planemeld.

Ramifications: Keshu probably gets drawn into the Cyrodiil conflicts anyway, where her Black Fin Legion plays (desired by some) 4th faction of otherwise unaligned players. Her goals are to support the legitimate authorities in Blackwood, since that's along her border. The real question is how the Dunmer and Nords react to both the Covenant and the Dominion declaring that they want the Ruby Throne and intend to reestablish a new empire with themselves at the head.

Scenario #3: Long distance alliance with the Covenant

The Covenant gets first crack because unlike the Dominion, they actually exist at the 2E 572. However, they pretty much exist in order to keep High King Emeric on the throne of Daggerfall, so they probably wouldn't have an ideological reason to care about Keshu.

However, in Canon 2E 573, Keshu would've fought raiders rumored to be funded by the Covanant (possibly even Covenant soldiers in disguise) and defeated them on behalf of the Pact. So we see that Emeric was possibly interested in interfering with the defensive Pact.

He'd probably have taken the opportunity offered by Keshu, but I strongly suspect that his support would've been limited to funds. Possibly some naval/privateer support once the Three Banners War started, and he would've expected Keshu to actively cut Dunmer supply lines to support his Stonefalls invasion.

Ramifications: being on the far side of the continent, Keshu and Emeric can do little to directly support each other's immediate goals. Additionally, an alliance with Emeric is a problem for her friend Jorunn, and eventually a problem for any Imperial allies.

Scenario #4: Alliance with the Dominion

This is the least likely, because the Dominion doesn't exist until 2E 580, by which point a smart Keshu has had other alliances for years. Also, Ayrenn is a young, untested Queen who's got a shaky grasp on her throne and her army. Keshu has more experience in her little finger than Ayrenn does.

While the Dominion would give Keshu a larger naval reach which is something she badly lacks, I think it's very unlikely that Keshu would seriously consider allying herself to Ayrenn's Dominion.

Scenario #5: a Unified Black Marsh

While we're playing around with AH, let's go whole hog and propose that Keshu and Vice-Canon Heita-Meen manage to convince more of the tribes and the Hist to support their cause. While in Canon, "you're going to be enslaved by raiding dunmer unless we do something different" was not sufficiently motivating for most tribes to sign up with an organized military, this time Keshu speaks with the authority of the Hist from her vision. The tribes listen.

Walks-In-Ash now commands this second Legion. She's not as good a commander as Keshu, but at least equal to General Tanval Indoril. This gives Keshu a second military force to guard another flank or deal with recalcitrant tribes.

Meanwhile, the newly militarized tribes start chewing up Dunmer raiding parties and spitting them out. The Dunmer shift to other sources of slaves (as we see them do in Stonefalls.)

Ramifications: realistically, Keshu is well set up to defend Black Marsh at this point. She probably can't overextend into an invasion of Morrowind though, especially when the Planemeld happens and throws much of Tamriel into chaos. However, she is well-placed to play support or spoiler for anyone invading Morrowind and probably makes quick strikes into their territory to free Argonian slaves.

..............................

Assessment

Now that I've written a huge post with ideas, let me tear them down a little. Because despite having these ideas for how the writers could've done it, I don't think they were dumb or wrong for choosing not to.

We can see how far the scenarios diverge from the Gameplay requirements of the MMORPG that the Devs and writers wanted to make. Fundamentally, this is a video game. If it doesn't work as a game, we don't get these stories.

Scenario #5 is certainly the most "feel good" of the AH scenarios. I kind of want to write a fanfic about it now... (Assuming that one thinks that radically transforming one's society militarily and ideologically to better defend oneself is an unalloyed good thing. Historically, it's complicated in both short and long term.)

However, from a story-telling perspective, #5 also the one that makes more sense in a TES X: Black Marsh, and not in a game centered around the whole continent. It's extremely Argonian-centric, which works really well in a single player game, and doesn't work in an MMORPG where you're going to have every race and faction be playable.

From the Loremaster's perspective, we can also see that Scenario #5 diverges from the isolated, tribal, and "go-with-the-flow" ideology that characterized ESO's take on the Argonians.

The Shaggy Dog Story

The principle conceit of Alternate History is that the future can change following the Point of Divergence.

However, the Elder Scrolls have future fixed points of canonicity in the 3rd and 4th Era.

Therefore, no matter what anyone did in ESO, the Loremaster and writers were bound by Canon to explain why the Argonians were enslaved throughout the 3rd Era, leading to TES 3 and the Saxheel invasion after Red Year.

Therefore, even if Keshu did pull off Scenario #5, the nascent nation of Black Marsh later got crushed back into the metaphorical
bedrock, its citizens put in chains, and Dunmer slave-raids continued under Imperial auspices for over four centuries.

I'll leave it to the reader to determine if that ending is better or worse than the end of the Pact in Canon.

Tl;dr: Keshu could've sought other alliances, but whether or not it'd be a better deal depends, and even in the best case scenario, the Argonians were doomed by TES 3 to centuries of enslavement. Yes, it sucks.

Anyways, it's been an interesting thought exercise, so thanks! Feel free to argue over the various scenarios as much as y'all like.

I'll add more to this later (at the gym) but I wanted to address this first. I cant just ignore this opening tidbit, lol:

"Then I'll spare you the very long post on why, when Keshu agreed to form the Pact 10 years prior to ESO"

As I've said to you many, many times, I'm not inherently against them joining when they had no other option.

I'm against them STAYING.

Your point about the other factions not being formed yet is odd to me. Alliances dont just form on their own. Are you saying Argonians are incapable of forging their own alliances? Why do the factions already need to exist for the argonians to engage in essential diplomacy to defeat their former slave-masters?

But either way, I want to emphasize again, my problem is with them STAYING allied with the dunmer any longee than they needed to for survival.

It was a bad, contrived writing decision so that each alliance would be next to each other, regardless of the context. It was written backwards. It has massively gross implications. It was obvious to anyone with a brain the dunmer would backstab them. The Argonians should've known to backstab them first.

VaranisArano

psychotrip wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Are you looking for an alternate history idea where this happened or an in-depth discussion of all the lore reasons why Keshu the Black Fin helped create the Pact and probably never even considered allying with High King Emeric or new-queen-on-the-block Ayrenn?

Mostly the former. You and I have discussed the latter intently. We will never see eye to eye on this, lol.

It will always be gross to me knowing Keshu stayed loyal to their former slavemasters, somehow not realizing the elves who literally worshiped a god of deceit for eons would betray them down the line. Not even considering an alliance with the other factions is moronic to me in light of this. No other faction has hurt the argonians more than Morrowind. If there were any other options available, it was stupid not to consider them.

The whole thing smacks of minimizing the unforgivable evil of enslavement, and implying that enslaved peoples are better off working with their own former slave masters (who clearly learned nothing as a people if their children and grandchildren are fine with enslaving them again), and are too stupid to realize they'll be betrayed. Obviously this wasnt the intent, but bad writing leads to bad implications.

Edit: before anyone makes real-life comparisons, I'm not saying you cant ever forgive the descendents of slave-masters. But they have to...you know...show that they, as a culture, have learned their lesson? Its clear that SOME of them learned, but its clear (to us at least) that the dunmer, on the whole, did not learn their lesson. In-universe, the signs of this are also clear, at least in my eyes.

If a culture is capable of reverting to chattel slavery after seeing constant proof that their former slaves are people, then not only did they not learn anything as a nation, but they seem even more evil because they dont have any excuses anymore.

Then I'll spare you the very long post on why, when Keshu agreed to form the Pact 10 years prior to ESO with the condition that the Tribunal would free the Argonians, she didn't join up with Emeric's Daggerfall Covenant. The Dominion didn't even exist yet.

Also, yes, the Dunmer are evil. (Was that in doubt?) And the unfortunate implications of Keshu's diplomatic solutions not working in the 2nd Era resulting in the 4th Era Saxheel invasion post-Red Year making sure the Dunmer weren't in a position to take slaves again were almost certainly intentional on the part of the writers. Accommodation does not usually work out well, historically. With the history of 3rd Era slavery set in stone, ESO had no choice but to do a downer ending to Keshu's ambitions.

...............

So let's talk alternate history.

The Argonians are not a monolith. Let me say that again: NOT a monolith. They are a tribal society where each tribe operates fairly independently under the guidance of their Hist Tree. A substantial coalition of tribes has united under Heita-Meen and Keshu the Black Fin with the goal of elevating Argonian society back to the level of building the xanmeers/nation-building again. A large number of tribes don't agree or don't care.

Therefore, for the purposes of alternate history (AH), we are primarily concerned with Keshu the Black Fin and her Black Fin Legion, seeing as how she is the premier Argonian commander and the only one with an organized military in Black Marsh. Since in ESO Keshu successfully led the Pact Army for ten years and in Cyrodiil, we can safely assume that she is the equal of any other alliance's Grand Warlord. That being said, she's not capable of ending the stalemate in Cyrodiil. Nor could she conquer the Dunmer Heartland and defend her homeland, seeing as how she has only the one army.

Canon

Sorry, gotta briefly discuss the Canon so we know where we're diverging.

Dunmer have been raiding, pillaging, and slave-taking along the border with Black Marsh. Though Keshu has the Black Fin Legion, raiding is difficult for an organized military to counter. Rather than engaging the Dunmer militarily, Keshu seeks a diplomatic solution by joining the Pact with the condition that the Tribunal will free the Argonians. This frees up the Black Fin Legion for other uses, notably in ESO where we see that the Pact is defending Shadowfen while Keshu and the Black Fin Legion defend Black Marsh's western border in Blackwood.

Point of Divergence

Lets play with a classic AH trope: the general who gets a vision of the bad future.

Keshu gets a vision from the Hist in which she sees that the tribes are not going to follow her example and thus are going to get rolled over by the Dunmer as soon as the Pact is over. So she jettisons Plan A and goes with Plan B: defend Black Marsh militarily herself.

(She cannot reasonably ask a foreign power in to guard the Shadowfen border. For one, you don't just invite in a foreign power - that's how you end up as a client state. For another, her Black Fin Legion is going to do a better job than anyone else.)

Her goals must be to defend Black Marsh, free what slaves she can in Dunmer territory, and find allies who can pressure the Dunmer.

Scenario #1: Alliance with the Nords

Keshu is friends with Jorunn, who becomes king during the Akaviri crisis. Once she decides to engage the Dunmer militarily rather than diplomatically, she offers him a military alliance to quash the Dunmer in between them following the explosion of the Akaviri.

Being as how this is AH, we'll say that Jorunn agrees (he probably wouldn't agree in canon, seeing as how Skyrim got hit hard by the Akaviri and he probably couldn't jump into another war so soon). The added pressure of having to guard their borders with Skyrim means that the Dunmer may not be able to raid Black Marsh.

Ramifications: With Keshu locked in a border war with the Dunmer, she's protecting her people along one front. However, when the Planemeld happens, she can't split her forces between Shadowfen and Blackwood, with the result that chaos from the Imperial Heartland spills on through into Southern Black Marsh. Especially if the war sets off the Sul-Xan tribe.

Scenario #2: Alliance with Duke Varen/Elder Council

Once Keshu engages the Dunmer militarily rather than diplomatically, she has to consider her other flanks. Cyrodiil is in a state of periodic unrest, so she seeks out the sources of stability: the Elder Council. She may be reluctant since Emperor Leovic has a bad reputation, but Emperor Varen almost certainly would've been amenable to an alliance...until the Planemeld.

Ramifications: Keshu probably gets drawn into the Cyrodiil conflicts anyway, where her Black Fin Legion plays (desired by some) 4th faction of otherwise unaligned players. Her goals are to support the legitimate authorities in Blackwood, since that's along her border. The real question is how the Dunmer and Nords react to both the Covenant and the Dominion declaring that they want the Ruby Throne and intend to reestablish a new empire with themselves at the head.

Scenario #3: Long distance alliance with the Covenant

The Covenant gets first crack because unlike the Dominion, they actually exist at the 2E 572. However, they pretty much exist in order to keep High King Emeric on the throne of Daggerfall, so they probably wouldn't have an ideological reason to care about Keshu.

However, in Canon 2E 573, Keshu would've fought raiders rumored to be funded by the Covanant (possibly even Covenant soldiers in disguise) and defeated them on behalf of the Pact. So we see that Emeric was possibly interested in interfering with the defensive Pact.

He'd probably have taken the opportunity offered by Keshu, but I strongly suspect that his support would've been limited to funds. Possibly some naval/privateer support once the Three Banners War started, and he would've expected Keshu to actively cut Dunmer supply lines to support his Stonefalls invasion.

Ramifications: being on the far side of the continent, Keshu and Emeric can do little to directly support each other's immediate goals. Additionally, an alliance with Emeric is a problem for her friend Jorunn, and eventually a problem for any Imperial allies.

Scenario #4: Alliance with the Dominion

This is the least likely, because the Dominion doesn't exist until 2E 580, by which point a smart Keshu has had other alliances for years. Also, Ayrenn is a young, untested Queen who's got a shaky grasp on her throne and her army. Keshu has more experience in her little finger than Ayrenn does.

While the Dominion would give Keshu a larger naval reach which is something she badly lacks, I think it's very unlikely that Keshu would seriously consider allying herself to Ayrenn's Dominion.

Scenario #5: a Unified Black Marsh

While we're playing around with AH, let's go whole hog and propose that Keshu and Vice-Canon Heita-Meen manage to convince more of the tribes and the Hist to support their cause. While in Canon, "you're going to be enslaved by raiding dunmer unless we do something different" was not sufficiently motivating for most tribes to sign up with an organized military, this time Keshu speaks with the authority of the Hist from her vision. The tribes listen.

Walks-In-Ash now commands this second Legion. She's not as good a commander as Keshu, but at least equal to General Tanval Indoril. This gives Keshu a second military force to guard another flank or deal with recalcitrant tribes.

Meanwhile, the newly militarized tribes start chewing up Dunmer raiding parties and spitting them out. The Dunmer shift to other sources of slaves (as we see them do in Stonefalls.)

Ramifications: realistically, Keshu is well set up to defend Black Marsh at this point. She probably can't overextend into an invasion of Morrowind though, especially when the Planemeld happens and throws much of Tamriel into chaos. However, she is well-placed to play support or spoiler for anyone invading Morrowind and probably makes quick strikes into their territory to free Argonian slaves.

..............................

Assessment

Now that I've written a huge post with ideas, let me tear them down a little. Because despite having these ideas for how the writers could've done it, I don't think they were dumb or wrong for choosing not to.

We can see how far the scenarios diverge from the Gameplay requirements of the MMORPG that the Devs and writers wanted to make. Fundamentally, this is a video game. If it doesn't work as a game, we don't get these stories.

Scenario #5 is certainly the most "feel good" of the AH scenarios. I kind of want to write a fanfic about it now... (Assuming that one thinks that radically transforming one's society militarily and ideologically to better defend oneself is an unalloyed good thing. Historically, it's complicated in both short and long term.)

However, from a story-telling perspective, #5 also the one that makes more sense in a TES X: Black Marsh, and not in a game centered around the whole continent. It's extremely Argonian-centric, which works really well in a single player game, and doesn't work in an MMORPG where you're going to have every race and faction be playable.

From the Loremaster's perspective, we can also see that Scenario #5 diverges from the isolated, tribal, and "go-with-the-flow" ideology that characterized ESO's take on the Argonians.

The Shaggy Dog Story

The principle conceit of Alternate History is that the future can change following the Point of Divergence.

However, the Elder Scrolls have future fixed points of canonicity in the 3rd and 4th Era.

Therefore, no matter what anyone did in ESO, the Loremaster and writers were bound by Canon to explain why the Argonians were enslaved throughout the 3rd Era, leading to TES 3 and the Saxheel invasion after Red Year.

Therefore, even if Keshu did pull off Scenario #5, the nascent nation of Black Marsh later got crushed back into the metaphorical
bedrock, its citizens put in chains, and Dunmer slave-raids continued under Imperial auspices for over four centuries.

I'll leave it to the reader to determine if that ending is better or worse than the end of the Pact in Canon.

Tl;dr: Keshu could've sought other alliances, but whether or not it'd be a better deal depends, and even in the best case scenario, the Argonians were doomed by TES 3 to centuries of enslavement. Yes, it sucks.

Anyways, it's been an interesting thought exercise, so thanks! Feel free to argue over the various scenarios as much as y'all like.

I'll add more to this later (at the gym) but I wanted to address this first. I cant just ignore this opening tidbit, lol:

"Then I'll spare you the very long post on why, when Keshu agreed to form the Pact 10 years prior to ESO"

As I've said to you many, many times, I'm not inherently against them joining when they had no other option.

I'm against them STAYING.

Your point about the other factions not being formed yet is odd to me. Alliances dont just form on their own. Are you saying Argonians are incapable of forging their own alliances? Why do the factions already need to exist for the argonians to engage in essential diplomacy to defeat their former slave-masters?

But either way, I want to emphasize again, my problem is with them STAYING allied with the dunmer any longee than they needed to for survival.

It was a bad, contrived writing decision so that each alliance would be next to each other, regardless of the context. It was written backwards. It has massively gross implications. It was obvious to anyone with a brain the dunmer would backstab them. The Argonians should've known to backstab them first.

I think I'll not delve too hard into your questions since you're busy and are just going off my intro. I think that my scenarios will go on to explore what options Keshu had for forging alternative alliances, re: the Nords, the Imperials, and the Covenant.


However, what I didn't really explain was some first principles, so that's on me. Let me define some terms here.

Most Alternate History I'm familiar with from published books and hobbyists have a single Point of Divergence (POD) before which the timeline is the same as actual history and after which historical events are subject to change. i.e. The Butterfly Effect.

Therefore, factions that exist prior to the POD still exist. Socioeconomic factors that persist past the POD still exist. Events that change after the POD take time to ripple out and may or may not have a big effect elsewhere.

Pre-PoD example: the Daggerfall Covenant forms in 2E 566 to keep Emeric on the throne. It has its own preexisting goals that determine its strategy. When Emeric considers an alliance with Keshu, he's primarily concerned with the Covenant first.

Post-PoD example: I speculate that Keshu could have forged an alliance with Duke/Emperor Varen. However, since we know that Varen is chiefly concerned with his legitimacy as Emperor and Keshu cannot meaningfully effect that, it's very likely that he still gathers the original Five Companions and unleashes the Planemeld.

VaranisArano

psychotrip wrote: »

But either way, I want to emphasize again, my problem is with them STAYING allied with the dunmer any longee than they needed to for survival.

It was a bad, contrived writing decision so that each alliance would be next to each other, regardless of the context. It was written backwards. It has massively gross implications. It was obvious to anyone with a brain the dunmer would backstab them. The Argonians should've known to backstab them first.

I wanted to come back to this, because the idea of Keshu leaving the Pact is a very good one, and it's one I hadn't addressed because it wasn't clear from the original post that's what you were thinking of.


In the canon year of ESO, Keshu has some fairly convincing reasons to stay in the Pact. It's working. Three Dunmer houses have abolished argonian slavery, while Dres mostly toes the line. The Pact successfully defended Shadowfen and the events of Blackwood vindicate her decision to secure Black Marsh's eastern flank.

However, I'd love to see Keshu wise up to fact of Dunmer unrepentance for slavery and leave the Pact.

That does present some tactical problems, but Keshu is an excellent general. She can figure it out:

Lack of manpower

Let's assume that Keshu doesn't immediately announce her intentions, and instead gradually recalls most of the Argonian troops currently serving the Pact in Cyrodiil to defend Shadowfen. "Oh, no, the Dominion attacked our hatchlings, we have to defend out tribes ourselves!" This bit of subterfuge both secures her border AND ensures that Pact Argonians won't be hung out to dry and re-enslaved when she changes sides.

Convincing Jorunn

It would be an absolute diplomatic coup if Keshu can convince Jorunn that the Tribunal means to restart slavery AND to join her instead of remaining in the Pact. Effectively, they'd be a two-nation Pact, sandwiching the Dunmer in between them.

The big problem is that there's no proof of the Tribunal's intent. It's logical, but usually rulers like to have proof before they break international treaties.

So, its unclear that Jorunn would agree to join Keshu outright, since he also benefits from the Pact (he's high king, they helped him put down a civil war, etc.) However, even if he doesn't agree, I suspect Keshu could have enough sway with him to ensure that Nord troops would have a non-aggression agreement with Black Marsh on the grounds that the Pact is defensive. If the Tribunal wants a war with Black Marsh, they have to use their own House troops.

Other Alliances

Obviously, Keshu remains allied to the Imperial Elder Council in Blackwood. They've been solid allies and secure her flank.

As far as the Covenant and Dominion go, Keshu doesn't really care about putting anyone on the Ruby Throne. In fact, her immediate goals of protecting Black Marsh actually benefit from continued in-fighting in Cyrodiil as long as her territory remains secure. The more troops the Dunmer have to commit to their war effort in Cyrodiil, the less they have to throw at her.

Pulling out of the Pact and maintaining neutrality to the Covenant and Dominion so long as they keep their hands clean in Black Marsh and Blackwood is probably her best bet to buy time for her and Heita-Meen to consolidate tribal support for their reforms and effect lasting change.

.................

If I weren't knee-deep in other fanfic projects, I'd totally write a story about Keshu telling Almalexia to take a hike and then proceeding to kick arrogant Dunmer butts up between their ears.

merpins

The Khajiit and the Argonian kingdoms lacked the ambition to try and take over the ruby throne. Though the Khajiit kingdom is united under the mane, it suffers prosecution from the conservative AD representatives, as well as the Dunmer that sometimes support slave trafficking. The Argonians on the other hand follow the will of the Hist, and though they build monuments throughout Black Marsh as to revere Sithis, the only reason they unite together is to use guerilla tactics in their dense swamp home to defend themselves from invaders that come to kidnap them into slavery. They would rather just be left alone. If any two races of Tamriel made sense to band together, it would be the Khajiit and the Argonians.

Realistically to me, the war would have most likely been the argonians and khajiit banding together to defend their territories from the Altmer and Dunmer. Unfortunately, due to the large land mass between them, the Orcs wouldn't have had the opportunity to side with the argonian and khajiit alliance, otherwise I'd wager they would for the same reason the other two banded together. Thus they would probably unite with the rest of the Daggerfall Covenant. The AD and the Pact would be severely weakened, as they'd have 1/3 of their fighting force rebelling, and the Daggerfall Covenant would win the three banners war without much of a resistance. At least until Tiber Septim arrives 200 years later.

Dr_Con

not AD for this time period. commiting war crimes on unborn hatchlings is a big no-no.

Jazraena

The reasons for the Argonian tribes staying with the Pact are overwhelmingly simple:
1) The moment they leave, any agreement to stop Argonian slavery is immediately in question.
2) Argonians are the weakest member of the Pact whereas Morrowind is the military powerhouse.

There are zero upsides to any member of the Pact dropping out, and absolutely extreme downsides to the Argonians doing so. While neither East Skyrim nor Morrowind would want the Argonians to go while engaged in a continental war it's far more of a life and death question for the Argonian tribes. And who would they turn to? Certainly not the Dominion post-Shadowfen, and the Covenant is much too distant to solidly support them if Morrowind decided to resume slaving. They have other priorities.

And before the Three Banners War it was straight up in the Pact's best interest to stick around while there was an Empire across the border prone to launch invasions. Given a far stronger Empire failed to conquer Morrowind in the past I would doubt the current weaker iteration's ability and will to try and protect some swamp tribes for no gain from slaving as well.

And friendship or not - Jorunn doesn't need the Argonians pre-Three Banners. He did need Morrowind.

And he's Almalexia's sock puppet.

JonnAndCo

I really enjoy these far reaching Lore discussions, although I admit to being at a bit of a disadvantage, not being an extreme Lore junky myself.

It seems to me that out of the 10 playable races, only the Imperial, Dunmer, Nord, Breton, and Redguard have any real interest in building an Empire. The Altmer, Bosmer, Khajit, Argonian, and Orc all seem intensely focused on protecting their own hereditary lands. As such, it seems a bit out of place that half the races even care about the Cyrodilic wars. I can only credit the need to create a compelling three faction game play, not any real logic in racial motivation.

Jazraena

Dunmer have historically never had Imperial ambitions and the entire current agenda of the Pact in Cyrodiil is that they don't want to get ruled by an Empire yet again - and well, restricting dangerous magic.

UsualSurrender

psychotrip wrote: »

The whole thing smacks of minimizing the unforgivable evil of enslavement, and implying that enslaved peoples are better off working with their own former slave masters (who clearly learned nothing as a people if their children and grandchildren are fine with enslaving them again), and are too stupid to realize they'll be betrayed. Obviously this wasnt the intent, but bad writing leads to bad implications.
.

We cannot use future events as an argument. You only know that as players, but no character at this point knows what will happen, and that slavery will be back in Morrowind.
From the Argonians' (and the Pact Dunmers') point of view, the Pact has kept its promises of ending slavery, and will keep doing so. It is not a bi-partisan treaty, don't forget that the Nords also can help making sure that all parties involved keep their word in this Pact.

Jazraena

And irrespective of future changes, it also means Argonians are being freed right now.

Keshu allying with anyone else would not have freed RandomArgonianSlave432 working the Dres fields north of Tear. Joining the Pact did. Even if Dunmer return to enslaving Argonians tomorrow, all sans Telvanni Argonian slaves have been set free, and thus have a chance.

psychotrip

UsualSurrender wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

The whole thing smacks of minimizing the unforgivable evil of enslavement, and implying that enslaved peoples are better off working with their own former slave masters (who clearly learned nothing as a people if their children and grandchildren are fine with enslaving them again), and are too stupid to realize they'll be betrayed. Obviously this wasnt the intent, but bad writing leads to bad implications.
.

We cannot use future events as an argument. You only know that as players, but no character at this point knows what will happen, and that slavery will be back in Morrowind.
From the Argonians' (and the Pact Dunmers') point of view, the Pact has kept its promises of ending slavery, and will keep doing so. It is not a bi-partisan treaty, don't forget that the Nords also can help making sure that all parties involved keep their word in this Pact.

Nah.

I genuinely think anyone with a brain would know that the elves who enslaved you, many of whom still see themselves as superior beings, and spent eons worshipping a god of deceit would eventually betray and re-enslave you. The complaints of inferior nord "demons" (as the dunmer have called them in the past) are irrelevent in the long-run.

Of course its great Argonians are being freed "right now". But you need a plan for when they will inevitably try to throw you all back in chains.

I'm not using the future as an argument. I bring up the future only in a meta-sense. In-universe, at the time the game takes place, I think it should've been obvious what was going to happen once the argonians were no longer needed, and the nords no longer interested.

Jazraena

Sure. It was a risk that the Black Fin should and has taken into consideration.

But it was still the right move.

JonnAndCo

You say the Dunmer have no interest in Empire, but it seems to me that their incursions in to Black Marsh, and their capture of Stormhold is an extension of Dunmer imperial interests. I wasn't saying Dunmer are allied with the race we call Imperial, I was simply saying they have their own imperial interests. It is true that securing slaves is their main motivation for invading Black Marsh, but again, acquiring and controlling "resources" to transfer back to the homeland is the very definition of Empire.

Jazraena

They've slowly crawled into Black Marsh, over millennia. Hyper Low Speed colonizing.

Absolutely negligible in the context of Tamriel. They're not trying to expand to any relevant degree. They're also nowhere near an actual Empire in structure. It's just House Dres slowly settling Black Marsh, occasionally getting pushback. There's literally more settlement going on on Vvardenfell proper.

JonnAndCo

According to the UESP wiki, this is what has been happening immediately preceding the timeline of our game:

"With the collapse of the Second Empire, Dunmeri enslavement of Argonians saw a substantial increase, though it had been occurring since the early First Era as slavers from House Dres and House Telvanni were freer than ever to exploit their southern neighbor, and entire tribes of Argonians were dragged off in chains."

Considering the sheer size of the lands being invaded, and the extent to which the Dunmer subjugated the local populations, I am going to stand by my original comments and say the Dunmer show imperial tendencies.

JonnAndCo

Here is the entire paragraph for context:

"With the collapse of the Second Empire, Dunmeri enslavement of Argonians saw a substantial increase, though it had been occurring since the early First Era,[44][45][46][47] as slavers from House Dres and House Telvanni were freer than ever to exploit their southern neighbor, and entire tribes of Argonians were dragged off in chains.[48][49] Some believe that this mistreatment of the reptilian race led an unnamed Argonian shaman to create the Knahaten Flu, a deadly disease that first appeared in Stormhold—headquarters of the Dunmeri slavers in Black Marsh[31][32][50]—in 2E 560 before spreading across Tamriel and claiming thousands of lives.[51][48][52] Some time after the outbreak of the Knahaten Flu, House Redoran sent a military expedition to the great stone city of Mazzatun in the Shadowfen region of Black Marsh, intending to wipe out the Xit-Xaht tribe, whom they suspected was responsible for the disease.[53] When the Knahaten Flu subsided after 2E 5603, Dunmeri slavers of House Dres remained one of the few non-Argonians who saw any reason to trouble themselves with Black Marsh, and continued to raid the north of the swamps."

So, only the flu slowed the incursions in to Black Marsh.

Jazraena

Again, they are not an Empire in either structure or action.

House Dres is slowly - yes, slowly, even with the substantial increase - colonizing slivers of northern Black Marsh. Other houses sent slavers or, in the case of Redoran, sent a punitive expedition but did never stay.

That's it.

There are no great wars of conquest and Imperial ambitions launched by Morrowind or one of it's houses. Even their Black Marsh colonization attempts remain incredibly slow well before and well after the Flu and fall well short even of failing Cyrod annexation attempts of the Marsh.

Compare this to the actual Empire in either of it's iterations, Emeric's desire to re-establish the Empire across Tamriel or Ayrenn's desire to establish Dominion rule across Tamriel.

Morrowind has fought Empires. It never actually tried to expand all that far beyond it's historical borders, let alone conquer an established nation. It has no Emperor, King or monarch of any sort. They're slaving *** and slowly displace Argonian tribes from the land they settle, but even that is extremely limited in scope compared to the actual continental scale Imperial ambitions we see in Tamriel's history and ESO present.

JonnAndCo

Well, I have explained the basis for my original point. People can and will form their own opinions on what comprises empire. If you are correct, it only reinforces that original point - being most of Tamriel has no interest in joining a Cyrodilic conflict, and would prefer to defend their own lands.