We need more incentive to queue for Random Veteran Dungeons.

Tyrant_Tim

Yesterday, I got a group of three players together on Xbox NA to queue for Veteran Stone Garden to help my friend get purple Arkasis jewelry for his tank. We had all three roles covered, with an opening for a damage dealer. It took us over 45 minutes to find a damage dealer after requeuing multiple times, then after 20 minutes of play, we had a player fall asleep at last boss because of how late it was, then we sat in queue for another 30 minutes.

Overall, we sat in queue longer than we had spent actually playing the dungeon…

Eventually it dawned on me, Veteran Dungeon Finder is dead because it lacks incentive to match the risk of associated with queueing for Vets. You get the same reward as a Normal Dungeon…

10 Transmute Stones.

Going into the latter half of 2023; I really hope that we can find a way to better incentivize using the group finder for harder content, by increasing the rewards, something as simple as raising the value from 10 to 20 for risking Veteran would be enough for me to start running those instead of Normal, daily.

Treeshka

Yes should be more rewards. More transmutes is always nice.

Braffin

Agreed. Handing out the same reward in easier content isn't exactly logical and counteract the idea of progression.

And it's unhealthy to both queues on top of that.

Necrotech_Master

if the reward for vet was raised as a whole, then there would likely be more fake roles queueing there because they want the higher rewards

but i do get that there is no current incentive to do vet queue

i was thinking of suggesting that there should be some kind of transmute reward for running vet hard mode, but then you get the huge imbalance in difficulty between non-dlc vet hard mode and dlc vet hard mode

and there are even some differences between older dlc dungeon HMs and newer dlc dungeon HMs (for example falkreath hold/ruins of mazzatun/cradle of shadows HMs are far easier than like shipwrights regret/scriveners hall/stone garden etc)

Tyrant_Tim

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

If the reward for vet was raised as a whole, then there would likely be more fake roles queueing there because they want the higher rewards.

This might be the case, but at least there would be a healthy population of players to replace them with.

Necrotech_Master

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

If the reward for vet was raised as a whole, then there would likely be more fake roles queueing there because they want the higher rewards.

This might be the case, but at least there would be a healthy population of players to replace them with.

well theres a 2 sided problem then

-rewards dont incentivize vet so less players and longer queue times
-rewards are higher to incentivize vet so more players and shorter queue times, but then lower quality players leads to equal frustration (fake role joins and you get frustrated wiping on trash mobs/bosses and then have to waste more time looking for replacement)

thats why i suggested adding the rewards for completing hard mode, scaling those rewards to the difficulty of the dungeon (say +5 transmute for non-dlc HM, +10 for easier dlc HM, or +5 per HM boss of dungeons with HM on each boss)

FeedbackOnly

More chests in veteran should be a thing

ixthUA

If its a dlc vet dungeon, and there are two 10k dds, its simply impossible to complete.
I can go on a 30k DPS DD role, but then there is a long queue, so i queue as healer or tank.
If there was a DPS check to queue as DD for vet dungeon - situation would be much better. Decent DDs -> more tanks and healers -> shorter queues for DDs.
Also other than monster helmets, there are no reasons to do vet DLC dungeons: 3 runs and dungeon is done.

zaria

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if the reward for vet was raised as a whole, then there would likely be more fake roles queueing there because they want the higher rewards

but i do get that there is no current incentive to do vet queue

i was thinking of suggesting that there should be some kind of transmute reward for running vet hard mode, but then you get the huge imbalance in difficulty between non-dlc vet hard mode and dlc vet hard mode

and there are even some differences between older dlc dungeon HMs and newer dlc dungeon HMs (for example falkreath hold/ruins of mazzatun/cradle of shadows HMs are far easier than like shipwrights regret/scriveners hall/stone garden etc)

And this is the problem, RND has an general no role agreement I say, yes an tank is nice.
On pledges people expect HM on the non dlc.
And you can do it with 4 DD who have decent dps know the mechanics are are sturdy.
Unfortunately the poor 400 cp pug who has decent dps but don't know the mechanic and are not sturdy has an problem even if not faking.

On Vet DLC HM require an organized group I say yes done the easier with pugs but then you are there for the achievement.
Else do non HM for monster set and jewelry.
For keys its much easier to do a 4 key on an alt.
And why you always get an dlc then puging an RND, is people doing pledges some don't have eso+ so they leave and group ask for the last guy, and this is if your lucky as they are usually competent.

AcadianPaladin

In my view, Pug + random + vet is not a recipe for enjoyable.

I only do game activities that are enjoyable. No reward is going to change that.

Zyva

lets be honest, if it was a much better reward, people would just pre-group with 4 players to get their reward each day and avoid having to "pug", which does not help the problem of getting people to queue.

Zyva

I feel some way to "fix" the fake tank/healer role would have to be implemented first, and even the forums cant agree on a good way to do that. Its just such a complicated issue because of the wide differences in content difficulty.

MudcrabAttack

It seems like the que time as DD for a random vet is faster then a random normal, that’s my incentive for it. Also it’s usually less boring than normal, with better quality loot and a bigger chance of getting a motif at the end.

They could always add more of an incentive, though. Pugging the latest dlcs can be hit or miss

valenwood_vegan

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

In my view, Pug + random + vet is not a recipe for enjoyable.

I only do game activities that are enjoyable. No reward is going to change that.

Beat me to it! But I completely agree; I know many people like me who would never pug a vet unless very very desperate, and I don't think rewards are going to change that - we'll continue to form premade groups to avoid the queue.

IMO increasing the rewards for random vet is more likely to attract the kind of players that are constantly being complained about on here - like all the fakes that plague the normal queue / players not yet prepared for vets / etc.

DrNukenstein

If you clear your random dungeon dailies on vet, you won't need to find a group for that obscure vet dungeon that no one likes when you want that particular monster helm.

Snamyap

My first thought was: why do you want/need to do Vet when your main goal is jewelry?

SeaGtGruff

As far as the idea for more chests, it sounds like it should be an incentive, but the few times I've run dungeons in groups, half of the group didn't seem to care about the chests at all and didn't even bother looking for them. I stayed in the dungeon with the group leader after everyone else left (we had all just walked into the dungeon rather than queued for it) and went through it carefully to find both chests. I'm not sure the leader would have found them without me, because I don't think she had the Antiquities passive that makes them glow, and they were both in rather obscure places, one being tucked away behind a boat. Half of the group only seemed to care about monster helms, and were disappointed to be told that monster helms don't drop in normal dungeons.

boi_anachronism_

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Yesterday, I got a group of three players together on Xbox NA to queue for Veteran Stone Garden to help my friend get Arkasis jewelry for his tank. We had all three roles covered, with an opening for a damage dealer. It took us over 45 minutes to find a damage dealer after requeuing multiple times, then after 20 minutes of play, we had a player fall asleep at last boss because of how late it was, then we sat in queue for another 30 minutes.

Overall, we sat in queue longer than we had spent actually playing the dungeon…

Eventually it dawned on me, Veteran Dungeon Finder is dead because there lacks incentive to risk a queue for Vets. You get the same reward as a Normal Dungeon… 10 transmute stones.

Going into the latter half of 2023; I really hope that we can find a way to better incentivize using the group finder for harder content, by increasing the rewards, something as simple as raising the value from 10 to 20 for risking Veteran would be enough for me to start running those instead of Normal, daily.

No. Ive already had it up to my eyeballs with totally inexperienced players landing in vet dlcs with me expecting a carry. My options end up being:

-Try and carry them and spend gold to repair my gear while wasting a colossal amount of time.

- leave group and wait till my penalty timer has ticked down.

No thanks

Necrotech_Master

Snamyap wrote: »

My first thought was: why do you want/need to do Vet when your main goal is jewelry?

purple jewelry on vet vs blue jewelry on normal

saves a ton in material costs

Tyrant_Tim

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Yesterday, I got a group of three players together on Xbox NA to queue for Veteran Stone Garden to help my friend get Arkasis jewelry for his tank. We had all three roles covered, with an opening for a damage dealer. It took us over 45 minutes to find a damage dealer after requeuing multiple times, then after 20 minutes of play, we had a player fall asleep at last boss because of how late it was, then we sat in queue for another 30 minutes.

Overall, we sat in queue longer than we had spent actually playing the dungeon…

Eventually it dawned on me, Veteran Dungeon Finder is dead because there lacks incentive to risk a queue for Vets. You get the same reward as a Normal Dungeon… 10 transmute stones.

Going into the latter half of 2023; I really hope that we can find a way to better incentivize using the group finder for harder content, by increasing the rewards, something as simple as raising the value from 10 to 20 for risking Veteran would be enough for me to start running those instead of Normal, daily.

No. Ive already had it up to my eyeballs with totally inexperienced players landing in vet dlcs with me expecting a carry. My options end up being:

-Try and carry them and spend gold to repair my gear while wasting a colossal amount of time.

- leave group and wait till my penalty timer has ticked down.

No thanks

Should they just remove Veteran Queue as an option then? Because if you don’t incentivize veterans to use their queue, you’re going to have the same likelihood of that experience.

When you add more power into the finder, the power goes up on average, meaning that instead of finding players that don’t belong in those queues every time, it would become much rarer.

Necrotech_Master

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

As far as the idea for more chests, it sounds like it should be an incentive, but the few times I've run dungeons in groups, half of the group didn't seem to care about the chests at all and didn't even bother looking for them. I stayed in the dungeon with the group leader after everyone else left (we had all just walked into the dungeon rather than queued for it) and went through it carefully to find both chests. I'm not sure the leader would have found them without me, because I don't think she had the Antiquities passive that makes them glow, and they were both in rather obscure places, one being tucked away behind a boat. Half of the group only seemed to care about monster helms, and were disappointed to be told that monster helms don't drop in normal dungeons.

yeah chests are not very rewarding in the dungeons, since they are not curated its unlikely you get anything your looking for, and if you do only run on normal, the simple chests likely wont even give you any set gear at all anyway

even then once you have all of the gear collected, theres not a lot of reason to go after the chests as you already have all the gear

Tyrant_Tim

@Necrotech_Master, the more I think about, the more I support the idea of increasing the amount of transmutes you get based on hard mode, while still increasing the number for veteran.

Maybe 10 for Normal, 15 for Veteran, 20 for HM?

Necrotech_Master

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Necrotech_Master, the more I think about, the more I support the idea of increasing the amount of transmutes you get based on hard mode, while still increasing the number for veteran.

Maybe 10 for Normal, 15 for Veteran, 20 for HM?

i think the HM amount would have to be divided up between of the massive range of difficulty in hard modes

-most non-dlc dungeon hard modes are not that hard so i think they should only be +5 more
-older-dlc dungeons are challenging, but way less so than newer dlcs (these only have 1 HM on the final boss, but due to increased difficulty could still give more than non-dlc dungeons) and should be like +10
-newer dlc dungeons can be very challenging (these are ones which have hard modes for all bosses) and give +5 per boss (or +15 in total if you do the entire dungeon in hard mode)

its a hard judgement call because if the rewards are all the same for each everyones just going to see the dungeon and leave if its not like FG1 or some other non-dlc dungeon, which is another problem people already posted about for normals

disintegr8

While it wouldn't get me queueing for random vets, I do agree that increasing the rewards might help others.

On the negative side, it would probably also increase the number of 'not really vet ready' players queueing for them to get the extra rewards, which might simply replace one problem with another.

Kappachi

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

More chests in veteran should be a thing

Chests are already guaranteed intermediate+ which if you use treasure hunter CP perk you will always get advanced+ loot meaning always dungeon loot in vet, vs normal dungeons where many simple chests don't yield dungeon loot even with TH perk.

boi_anachronism_

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Yesterday, I got a group of three players together on Xbox NA to queue for Veteran Stone Garden to help my friend get Arkasis jewelry for his tank. We had all three roles covered, with an opening for a damage dealer. It took us over 45 minutes to find a damage dealer after requeuing multiple times, then after 20 minutes of play, we had a player fall asleep at last boss because of how late it was, then we sat in queue for another 30 minutes.

Overall, we sat in queue longer than we had spent actually playing the dungeon…

Eventually it dawned on me, Veteran Dungeon Finder is dead because there lacks incentive to risk a queue for Vets. You get the same reward as a Normal Dungeon… 10 transmute stones.

Going into the latter half of 2023; I really hope that we can find a way to better incentivize using the group finder for harder content, by increasing the rewards, something as simple as raising the value from 10 to 20 for risking Veteran would be enough for me to start running those instead of Normal, daily.

No. Ive already had it up to my eyeballs with totally inexperienced players landing in vet dlcs with me expecting a carry. My options end up being:

-Try and carry them and spend gold to repair my gear while wasting a colossal amount of time.

- leave group and wait till my penalty timer has ticked down.

No thanks

Should they just remove Veteran Queue as an option then? Because if you don’t incentivize veterans to use their queue, you’re going to have the same likelihood of that experience.

When you add more power into the finder, the power goes up on average, meaning that instead of finding players that don’t belong in those queues every time, it would become much rarer.

Highly unlikely. The fact is there are more newbies/low level and casual players then there are experienced vets. By a mile. There would just be a greater influx of people not ready for it and dilute the pool further. What they should do is group similar cp ranges. then I would be all for it. Otherwise no.

Twohothardware

The incentive should be that you're locked out of running normal dungeons after you reach a certain CP level lol.

CP2000 players in base normal dungeons just ruin the experience for below level 50 players. They turn a dungeon into a overland patrol stroll.

jommerryrth

people shouldnt be in rVet dungeons unless they have a clue whats going on. someone neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeds to know mechanics.

but that said i have never gone into them knowing mechanics. usu though someone clues me in b4 long

valenwood_vegan

Twohothardware wrote: »

The incentive should be that you're locked out of running normal dungeons after you reach a certain CP level lol.

CP indicates absolutely nothing about one's actual skill level or ability to complete a vet dungeon. I see high cp players every single day who can't even do the most basic "interrupt me plz" mech at a wb. I don't think forcing them into the vet pool is going to produce the desired result.

AcadianPaladin

My CP~2300 healer usually just solos normal non-dlc dungeons. When she occasionally pugs, it is only for dungeons she can comfortably solo. The only reason she ever pugs is to flex her ability to react to the surprises that pugs are so good at. As the healer, she brings up the rear, letting others set the pace. She is experienced and skilled enough to totally adapt to what the group wants and what their skill levels are. So blanket statements about 'CP2000' players are not accurate and hardly a reason to restrict players who have worked many years to be able to play how/what they want. There will always be inconsiderate players, but that has nothing to do with CP level. And as @valenwood_vegan says, such a restriction would not yield the desired results at all. Rather, the unintended consequences would be (for me at least) to find another game.

boi_anachronism_

Twohothardware wrote: »

The incentive should be that you're locked out of running normal dungeons after you reach a certain CP level lol.

CP2000 players in base normal dungeons just ruin the experience for below level 50 players. They turn a dungeon into a overland patrol stroll.

Disagree. Ive taken level 12 players through normal dungeons and explained all the mechs given them my drops ect. Vet players can be a big asset to new players. They sure were to me. If you say hey i got a quest or i want to do this slow 9/10 x people will be cool with it.