Class Advancement (suggestion for expanding classes in ESO).

merpins

Although I love having new class choices, I'd love to see what the dev team would do with the old classes in ESO. I don't really want to see revamps of the OG classes, but I have a suggestion that would add both a ton of diversity in-game, but also expand on what is already here. Let me explain:

Class Advancement. At level 50, you get to choose an advancement class. This is like a subclass on top of your main class. When this system launches, every class would get one of two choices. Let's take Templar for example; Templar's choices could be "Paladin" or "Priest," which would be subclasses with different specialties. You'd choose the one you'd rather specialize in. You'd get one new skill line based on your choice, and the level cap would increase to 60 rather than 50. These last 10 levels are essentially prestige levels. You'd still gain exp towards CP while leveling up passed level 50, and the current gear system would not change. You'd still have the BiS gear that is Level 50 CP 160. Each level passed 50 would be difficult, similar to VR levels back when the game launched... Heck, if the level cap being 60 confuses players, it could instead just be Veteran Ranks like it used to be. You get VR 1 at level 50, and can level it up to 10. I don't think that's necessary, but it would be less confusing when it comes to gearing. These would work like normal levels. This would mean a capped player in ESO when this system launches would be Level 50, VR 10, CP 3600, if they wanted to go that route.

Here's where this is interesting as well: it would allow the devs to expand further by adding new specialties for each class. Again, take templar. Later after release, they'd not only get Paladin or Priest, but also maybe Hero, or Guardian.

Class Advancement: Beyond 60. Devs can then later add further class advancement. At level 60 or VR 10, you'd get another skill line for your original class advancement, and the level cap would increase to 70, or the VR would increase to 20. Paladin would now have 2 skill lines, as an example. I think this would cap at 3 new skill lines and level 80/VR 30, at most. Possibly only 2 skill lines and level 70/VR 20. The system could release with only the first skill line unlocked in class advancement, and capping at level 60/VR 10, for this to then be expanded at a later date.

Thoughts?

TaSheen

Interesting. The problem is how levels above 50/CP 160 would gear?

Gray_howling_parrot

merpins wrote: »

Although I love having new class choices, I'd love to see what the dev team would do with the old classes in ESO. I don't really want to see revamps of the OG classes, but I have a suggestion that would add both a ton of diversity in-game, but also expand on what is already here. Let me explain:

Class Advancement. At level 50, you get to choose an advancement class. This is essentially your class specialty. Let's take templar for example. When this system launches, every class would get one of two choices, so Templar's choices could be "Paladin" or "Priest." You'd get one new skill line based on your choice, and you'd get to advance up to level 60 rather than 50. These last 10 levels would combine with CP, and the current gear system would not change. You'd still have the BiS gear that is Level 50 CP 160, see 50-60 kind of as a prestige system, similar to the original VR system the game launched with, but you get skill points and ability points for these levels. Each level passed 50 would take a while to get.

Here's where this is interesting as well: it would allow the devs to expand further by adding new specialties for each class. Again, take templar. Later after release, they'd not only get Paladin or Priest, but also maybe Hero, or Guardian.

Class Advancement: Beyond 60. Devs can then later add further class advancement. At level 60, you'd get another skill line for your original class advancement. Paladin would now have 2 skill lines, as an example. I think this would cap at 3 new skill lines and level 80, at most. Possibly only 2 skill lines and level 70. The system could release with only the first skill line unlocked in class advancement, and capping at level 60, for this to then be expanded at a later date.

Thoughts?

Love it! I currently have tried to make war priest & paladin builds on my templar anyways and have re-imagined playstyles from other games like WoW for instance. I think this would be a fantastic way to expand on classes a bit more and would be preferable for those of us that play one class primarily.

Arcanist is so cool for people that love it and play many classes, but I just play templar, so an expansion of the class I play and the classes everyone else plays would be very welcomed - that's part of the reason im super pumped for the class specific sets coming in Q4

merpins

TaSheen wrote: »

Interesting. The problem is how levels above 50/CP 160 would gear?

As I mentioned above, it wouldn't add new gear levels to the game. This is kind of like prestige levels in that way. I could see some new kind of class specific weapon alteration sets being added that require level 60 cp 160 or level 70 cp 160, but this suggestion would not make it so you need to regain your end-game gear.

TaSheen

Eh, I'm not really exercised about getting gear myself - I'm very happy with the situation here (as opposed to the gear chase in other games); my question was more from the perspective of those who do serious endgame and how they might feel about "extra levels" without "extra gear levels".

And I do remember the huge fuss over Maelstrom weapons....

Amottica

ESO already has the most complicated class build system of the major MMORPGs providing the most choices in customizing a character's build. ESO is the leader in this.

This has also led to major challenges for Zenimax to balance classes, weapons, and combat. We do not need to make this aspect worse.

Even then, the suggestion brings about a more restrictive build than we currently have. It sounds much like SWTOR and its failed class design where one had to choose an advance class.

merpins

Amottica wrote: »

ESO already has the most complicated class build system of the major MMORPGs providing the most choices in customizing a character's build. ESO is the leader in this.

This has also led to major challenges for Zenimax to balance classes, weapons, and combat. We do not need to make this aspect worse.

Even then, the suggestion brings about a more restrictive build than we currently have. It sounds much like SWTOR and its failed class design where one had to choose an advance class.

Well SWTOR and other games with similar systems, these advanced classes made old skills obsolete. This would just open up more diversity in options, make each character different from another, and expand on what's already in the game rather than adding more classes to the game.

Gray_howling_parrot

Amottica wrote: »

ESO already has the most complicated class build system of the major MMORPGs providing the most choices in customizing a character's build. ESO is the leader in this.

This has also led to major challenges for Zenimax to balance classes, weapons, and combat. We do not need to make this aspect worse.

Even then, the suggestion brings about a more restrictive build than we currently have. It sounds much like SWTOR and its failed class design where one had to choose an advance class.

#1 I'd definitely say it has a ton of OPTIONS, but it's far from complicated per se. Depends on what you're going for - are you chasing the META? There's not a lot of diversity there so that's far from complicated. Outside of that, you get gear, choose your skills and slot some CP. Not too complicated. I think what's more daunting is the amount of content in the game, but making a build at end game? That's one of the most attractive and exciting parts of ESO.

#2 This is not becoming more constrictive, it's adding more skill lines towards which specialization like they sated. I'm pretty curious how you believe more options/available skills equates to more restriction?

#3 Also, by stating the game is overly complicated and then complaining it would be restrictive in its implementation is contradictory. Wouldn't you want it to be more restricted in your mind based on your argument to trivialize the complication that is end-game? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Still believe it sounds like an incredible idea - and at the very least, a great foundation to expand upon to further develop classes past what they are now

merpins

TaSheen wrote: »

Eh, I'm not really exercised about getting gear myself - I'm very happy with the situation here (as opposed to the gear chase in other games); my question was more from the perspective of those who do serious endgame and how they might feel about "extra levels" without "extra gear levels".

And I do remember the huge fuss over Maelstrom weapons....

I mean yeah, they were upset about maelstrom going from 150 to 160 I believe, or VR 15 to 16? I forget when it happened exactly, I don't even thing VR went that high tbf. But Since there'd be no gear progression, it wouldn't be a problem i dont think

chessalavakia_ESO

If you wanted to offer all 7 classes two choices for skill lines, you would need to add 14 skill lines.

Personally, if we were going to get 14 new skill lines I'd prefer to get new classes, new weapon lines, and new faction lines rather than just spending them all on adding additional options for the existing classes.

You'd also run into the issue that how people view the classes varies.

For example, some people like the classes to have strict identities that tie tightly to a theme and others prefer more loose associations. For example, some players Warden's may be entirely focused around Frost and others may barely use the Frost at all/try to ignore it's existence.

Further, you can also hit challenges regarding role. Let's suppose for example I am a healer. If one of the new skill lines you add for my class has a really powerful heal/buff I'm going to feel like I ought to run that line even if the approach isn't how I like to see my character.

ESO doesn't have that many skill slots which can end up putting a damper on build variety especially when people start to min-max.

With some of the classes, you might also end up finding that it might be hard to come up with additional skills that align with the existing theme without looking redundant that are also appealing, balanced, and don't make the classes feel identical.

merpins

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

If you wanted to offer all 7 classes two choices for skill lines, you would need to add 14 skill lines.

Personally, if we were going to get 14 new skill lines I'd prefer to get new classes, new weapon lines, and new faction lines rather than just spending them all on adding additional options for the existing classes.

You'd also run into the issue that how people view the classes varies.

For example, some people like the classes to have strict identities that tie tightly to a theme and others prefer more loose associations. For example, some players Warden's may be entirely focused around Frost and others may barely use the Frost at all/try to ignore it's existence.

Further, you can also hit challenges regarding role. Let's suppose for example I am a healer. If one of the new skill lines you add for my class has a really powerful heal/buff I'm going to feel like I ought to run that line even if the approach isn't how I like to see my character.

ESO doesn't have that many skill slots which can end up putting a damper on build variety especially when people start to min-max.

With some of the classes, you might also end up finding that it might be hard to come up with additional skills that align with the existing theme without looking redundant that are also appealing, balanced, and don't make the classes feel identical.

Valid criticisms. For me personally, I don't particularly feel I want or need a new class. I'd be happy to have more classes, but this option shows what I'd personally value more; more reasons to play the game a la new skill lines for every character I have, more variety in options, and making old content more vibrant. To your theme comment, I'd say I don't think it's a huge issue here. If every class got 2 skill lines to choose from, sure not every playstyle would be perfectly represented, but I'd imagine that they could add more options later based on player feedback. It wouldn't be locked to 2 for every class, but more than that after the release. And they wouldn't need to release 1 for every class when they release new skill lines like this, they could just release one or two at a time after the initial major change. This covers the role comment as well.

Skill slots is an issue in this game that this kind of update would run into challenges with to some extent, but it would be the same if they added more guild or weapon skill lines as well (less so for weapon skill lines, but still). I don't think it'll put a damper on any builds, but will make choice all the more important in the feeling you want to have when playing a class or character.

The last one is true. But this is the same for every new class or skill line. We don't wanna be stepping on anyone's toes regardless of what is made.

Amottica

merpins wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

ESO already has the most complicated class build system of the major MMORPGs providing the most choices in customizing a character's build. ESO is the leader in this.

This has also led to major challenges for Zenimax to balance classes, weapons, and combat. We do not need to make this aspect worse.

Even then, the suggestion brings about a more restrictive build than we currently have. It sounds much like SWTOR and its failed class design where one had to choose an advance class.

Well SWTOR and other games with similar systems, these advanced classes made old skills obsolete. This would just open up more diversity in options, make each character different from another, and expand on what's already in the game rather than adding more classes to the game.

We already have a notably greater amount of choice in our builds. The sheer number of choices makes games like SWTOR and WoW look like child play.

Regardless, the proposed suggestion will not happen as it would create a greater headache in trying to balance everything than we already have, as I noted in my previous post you quoted. post you quoted.

Amottica

Jaustink wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

ESO already has the most complicated class build system of the major MMORPGs providing the most choices in customizing a character's build. ESO is the leader in this.

This has also led to major challenges for Zenimax to balance classes, weapons, and combat. We do not need to make this aspect worse.

Even then, the suggestion brings about a more restrictive build than we currently have. It sounds much like SWTOR and its failed class design where one had to choose an advance class.

#1 I'd definitely say it has a ton of OPTIONS, but it's far from complicated per se. Depends on what you're going for - are you chasing the META? There's not a lot of diversity there so that's far from complicated. Outside of that, you get gear, choose your skills and slot some CP. Not too complicated. I think what's more daunting is the amount of content in the game, but making a build at end game? That's one of the most attractive and exciting parts of ESO.

#2 This is not becoming more constrictive, it's adding more skill lines towards which specialization like they sated. I'm pretty curious how you believe more options/available skills equates to more restriction?

#3 Also, by stating the game is overly complicated and then complaining it would be restrictive in its implementation is contradictory. Wouldn't you want it to be more restricted in your mind based on your argument to trivialize the complication that is end-game? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Still believe it sounds like an incredible idea - and at the very least, a great foundation to expand upon to further develop classes past what they are now

The first point is incorrect. In other top MMORPGs like WoW and FF14 a character's build has very little choice in weapons, gearing, and skills. They are forced to use what little is available to their class. Their class builds are simplistic by design. So yes, ESO class builds are significantly more complicated since most skills in the game are available to all classes and we have a selection of hundreds of set bonuses to work with.

But the choices the player has is not where the problem really lies. It is, as stated, the challenge Zenimax has in balancing things and adding multiple layers on top of that makes their job even more challenging. This is the main reason the suggestion will not happen.

To your last point, it is not contradictory at all that character builds are complicated yet builds are actually restrictive. Sure, the player who just wants to come up with "fun" builds and is not concerned about their performance would not find things restrictive. However, to any player who wants to perform well, even if they are not trying to chase a meta, they will have much more limiting since it is only a smaller number of skills that perform well. Most potential character builds are trash and the suggestion does not improve on that.

Heck, it sounds like a fun suggestion but the reality is it will not happen since it requires more work than any possible benefit it could bring to the game. You can quote me on that it will not happen.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

This thread has been moved to the Combat & Character Mechanics section, as it is better suited there.

Thank you for your understanding.

merpins

Amottica wrote: »

Heck, it sounds like a fun suggestion but the reality is it will not happen since it requires more work than any possible benefit it could bring to the game. You can quote me on that it will not happen.

I mean basically any suggestion sans balance changes will probably be ignored by the dev team. It's too much work to really ask for a system like this. I expect more revamps than anything more exciting like this; it's also why I don't think Spell Crafting will come to the game, despite it basically being complete around 2015.

I could see it as a possible solution to the CP problem, since CP isn't a particularly good system anymore. They could step even further away from the % based increases that the CP system grants by nerfing the values even further and then releasing this kind of system to take its place. It would be a way to make it so both old and new players have more variety in all characters they play, not just new ones they make. That's the main point of the suggestion, adding more playability and longevity to the game by adding more options that aren't sets. There's other ways to do it that don't involve combat, but combat is the main pull of ESO.

DrNukenstein

This idea could have the potential to break the "everyone do everything good" meta that haunts BGs.

I'd like to see these specializations kick in around level 20. You pick a specialization, which is just the passives of one of your 3 class lines. You can have healer/utility passives, tank passives, or damage dealer passives. You could still use the skills available to the other 2 specializations, but your effectiveness in the roles associated with that skill line would be limited. Furthermore, this could ultimately open up more builds since you wouldn't be obligated to get the skill slot benefits of each skill line.

This should be paired with certain passives being made "core" in that they would apply to all specializations.

Zerin_1

I agree with this option. I think alternate classes or a templar evolving to a God or ritualist maybe or that as one of the advancement classes?

JerBearESO

Yeah I could see this being doable and good for the game. Though I would say a whole skill line is maybe too much to ask for. At a certain point we just get reskinned skills. So maybe a mini skill line with like 2 skills and a passive would be most manageable

Skullstachio

I'll be honest, I would think accessibility of class advancements should be tied to how proficient that character is.
Specifically as an example: if a warden were to reach 50 in winters embrace, green balance and animal companions, the warden would get one of two choices of another class skill line between say, Wild Hunter (shapeshifting into different animal forms and altering the way the warden fights, while also representing a darker side to the warden from the lore perspective as noted of the bosmeri wild hunt lore) or some other unformentioned subclass. (Feel free to help with that one.)

But I reckon there may very well be a place here for class advancements. But it would be a matter of both "if" and "when."