life cap. introduce and + block in pvp op?+

Fantalior

I find the current tank meta just creepy everyone runs around with 28k+ many more with 35k life. And then also these useless turtle tactics with permablock and with it an immense reduction in incoming damage. I would really appreciate an off-dot counter and DK ult for armor bypass. Because every class should be able to shine in PvP. Wears a kind of life cap. one that may lead to the fact that, e.g. from 26k+ life, you take a little more damage in percentage terms that could be well integrated into the fighting spirit. I would also be very happy about a buff for the deadric damage enchantment or the set knight butcher, the possibility of deadric damage is generally used too badly in development, much more could be adjusted here in PvP. Maybe even with weapon abilities that deal standardized deadric damage...
In addition, blocking absorbs too much damage in PvP and makes more offensive ways of playing significantly less attractive, especially in connection with Sea-Serpent's Coil (- 40% damage when first hit) and proper healing over time, unpleasant standard situations arise.
Do something about it right now vs Shield and Sword Block in PvP.
Otherwise there were some good and bad changes in the last patch thanks for the bow and destruction staff buff. Rather unpleasant that the NB now has multiple sources for its frenzy instead of the individual +10% damage.

Necrotech_Master

the 2 best ways to counter a block build would be either oblivion dmg, and/or debuffs to recovery/resource drains

however with the current game, neither of these options are very strong, nor easy to use

only a few sets do oblivion dmg, and most of them dont do enough dmg to be useful

sloads for example is 3% max hp per tick, which would be 900 dmg per tick against someone with 30k max hp, which is arguably still weaker than just using masters dual wield (except against a block tank, but the dmg its dealing is far too low to still be useful)

knight slayer is another oblivion dmg one which is 8% max hp dmg applied on a full heavy attack, which would be 2400 unresistable dmg against 30k hp target, but again, still far too low/slow to apply unless there were 10+ people all using this set hitting at the same time

the other factor, such as recovery debuffs, or resource drains, have far more limited options

theres like 2 sets which do resource recovery debuffs, and the value is so low that it is negligible

resource drains can only be sourced from certain poisons, and those are also fairly weak too

probably one of the best counters that they have come up with for the block tank is one of the new cyro sets which applies -healing per stack, at max it can apply -35% healing to the target, which if you stack with defiles (major and minor defile totals around -24% healing)

there are was to combat block tanks, but in general i would say its usually easier to straight up ignore them since most of the time they cant do enough dmg to do anything significant except be annoying and burn your siege

CameraBeardThePirate

Bring back bleeds. For those unaware, dual wield axes had a passive bleed that cut through resistances - great for countering tanks as they couldn't block the DoT, and having high resistances didn't help them.

They took this out when they changed axes to crit damage, but imo, there should still be sources of resistance-ignoring dots outside of Oblivion damage.

JerBearESO

They need to reduce the effectiveness of block mitigation through battle spirit. It really is unreasonable that someone can permanently block troll in a pvp setting, and forcing players to build a counter to troll gameplay is stupid.

Just have battle spirit cut block mitigation in half

Fantalior

You could have done a lot with the Snake in the Stars set as well. Unfortunately deaths have been nerfed, why not introduce a negation of healing effects by the identical value of deadric damage?

Luckylancer

JerBearESO wrote: »

They need to reduce the effectiveness of block mitigation through battle spirit. It really is unreasonable that someone can permanently block troll in a pvp setting, and forcing players to build a counter to troll gameplay is stupid.

Just have battle spirit cut block mitigation in half

Reducing block effectiveness to deal with perma blockers is stupid. Just fix the problem. The problem is perma blocking.

Blocking is a skill based reactive defence when it is not used on perma block build. Blocking itself should not be nerfed.

finehair

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Bring back bleeds. For those unaware, dual wield axes had a passive bleed that cut through resistances - great for countering tanks as they couldn't block the DoT, and having high resistances didn't help them.

They took this out when they changed axes to crit damage, but imo, there should still be sources of resistance-ignoring dots outside of Oblivion damage.

I think they have changed bleed damage long before that. Bleed used to be the same as oblivion damage; ignoring block, mitigation and resistances.

Bashev

Luckylancer wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

They need to reduce the effectiveness of block mitigation through battle spirit. It really is unreasonable that someone can permanently block troll in a pvp setting, and forcing players to build a counter to troll gameplay is stupid.

Just have battle spirit cut block mitigation in half

Reducing block effectiveness to deal with perma blockers is stupid. Just fix the problem. The problem is perma blocking.

Blocking is a skill based reactive defence when it is not used on perma block build. Blocking itself should not be nerfed.

The problem is not permablocking. The problem is block healing in execute range.

I am for nerfing block but if it is done then NBs and DKs damage should be toned down.

CameraBeardThePirate

finehair wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Bring back bleeds. For those unaware, dual wield axes had a passive bleed that cut through resistances - great for countering tanks as they couldn't block the DoT, and having high resistances didn't help them.

They took this out when they changed axes to crit damage, but imo, there should still be sources of resistance-ignoring dots outside of Oblivion damage.

I think they have changed bleed damage long before that. Bleed used to be the same as oblivion damage; ignoring block, mitigation and resistances.

There might have been something in between Axe Bleed and Axe Crit damage, but I can't remember for sure.

CameraBeardThePirate

Bashev wrote: »

Luckylancer wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

They need to reduce the effectiveness of block mitigation through battle spirit. It really is unreasonable that someone can permanently block troll in a pvp setting, and forcing players to build a counter to troll gameplay is stupid.

Just have battle spirit cut block mitigation in half

Reducing block effectiveness to deal with perma blockers is stupid. Just fix the problem. The problem is perma blocking.

Blocking is a skill based reactive defence when it is not used on perma block build. Blocking itself should not be nerfed.

The problem is not permablocking. The problem is block healing in execute range.

I am for nerfing block but if it is done then NBs and DKs damage should be toned down.

Permablocking is a problem too though. You shouldn't be able to sustain block indefinitely against 10+ players wailing on you, but you can.

DrNukenstein

If burst heals had a cast time, everyone would have to drop block to cast them and the game would be healthier for it.

PVE would survive, because 25% of the group is intended to be keeping 75% of the group alive primarily through keeping the tank alive.

then instead of a health cap, I'd rather see more incentive to invest in pool stats for damage. We get a lot of free stats that scale additively (inherent diminishing returns) with weapon damage and pool stats. A certain amount of mag or stam over the base value grants global% damage+healing that scales multiplicatively with other % multipliers while removing base tooltip contribution from stats.

Something like 32% at 64 points invested. This would average out to not that much more damage than current glass cannon stat spreads since mag/stam would no longer directly apply to the base tooltip of a skill, but would apply a huge damage penalty to a 64 health build. This multiplier could be pushed further by itemizing max stats.

This would also enable damage builds to split their stat distribution between mag and stam for maximum comfort without compromising on damage.

Bashev

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Luckylancer wrote: »

JerBearESO wrote: »

They need to reduce the effectiveness of block mitigation through battle spirit. It really is unreasonable that someone can permanently block troll in a pvp setting, and forcing players to build a counter to troll gameplay is stupid.

Just have battle spirit cut block mitigation in half

Reducing block effectiveness to deal with perma blockers is stupid. Just fix the problem. The problem is perma blocking.

Blocking is a skill based reactive defence when it is not used on perma block build. Blocking itself should not be nerfed.

The problem is not permablocking. The problem is block healing in execute range.

I am for nerfing block but if it is done then NBs and DKs damage should be toned down.

Permablocking is a problem too though. You shouldn't be able to sustain block indefinitely against 10+ players wailing on you, but you can.

My proposal will make these builds not able to sustain their health. Even if they somehow manage, they are not a threat, let these builds alone, to be tanks and maybe use some CC in the big siege fights.

Mr_Jord_Joe

Add to battle spirit: The higher the HP, the less damage this player does

Don't give me that ''experienced players'' story, it's clear that some builds are insanely out of line...

Bashev

Mr_Jord_Joe wrote: »

Add to battle spirit: The higher the HP, the less damage this player does

Don't give me that ''experienced players'' story, it's clear that some builds are insanely out of line...

That will make the difference between good players and bad even worse. Good players can cast hots and block cast heals in execute, the new players will be absolutely destroyed.

edward_frigidhands

You essentially want battle spirit to fix lack of skill or a lack of willingness to build against what you want to kill in PvP.

Fantalior

I think an additional approach could be that Deadric- damage not only causes its normal unavoidable damage but also absorbs or negates healing points in the same amount (Or negate up to 150% of damage to healing).

We have this type of damage specifically for PvP and therefore the PVP balancing in the game is no longer adjusted using this slider?

Necrotech_Master

Fantalior wrote: »

I think an additional approach could be that Deadric- damage not only causes its normal unavoidable damage but also absorbs or negates healing points in the same amount (Or negate up to 150% of damage to healing).

We have this type of damage specifically for PvP and therefore the PVP balancing in the game is no longer adjusted using this slider?

heal absorption and oblivion dmg would be ideal counters but theres several significant problems

most all things which do oblivion dmg were nerfed and do %health dmg instead of fixed amounts (less punishing to lower health builds, but the %health scaling dmg is far too low as it currently is to be useful even against tanks)

heal absorption is fixed amounts, but again the amounts are far too low to really do much, it at best negates/partially negates 1 heal

snake in the stars set had potential to be a heal counter set, but it was arguably overnerfed before it was released, in its current state its duration is far too short, and being on a per target and global cooldown means it has only about 20% uptime

Vaqual

Most suggestions in this thread are quite good.

Health caps however, are the most useless suggestion ever. HP is on average the stat with the least potential (weighing sustain, damage and survivability against other stats; of course this is build dependent). All high HP builds are supposed to achieve is preventing oneshots. The ability to have a chance to live through burst cheese and being able to actually fight the enemy is the least I would ask from a game. Playing "who gets seen first" with 13-year olds is just a pointless waste of time.

If certain HP scaling abilities and skills are overperforming then you have already identified what needs adjustment. If certain defense buffs (e.g. +block mitigation, undeath) are too strong, then you go and adjust that. But asking for HP to be capped is just going to favour gank builds in an absolutely onesided way. And many people here have experienced patches where oneshot builds were just as hated as tank builds are these days.

In the end it is always about managing tradeoffs between mobility, sustain, damage and survivability. Every investment in mobility means lost resources if your enemy is faster. All your points in healing are wasted, if it isn't enough to outheal incoming damage. There are always certain compositions that counter other playstyles. Admittedly, many things are OP and need tweaking. But misidentifying simple counter-builds as OP and thus taking out counterplay options is just plain wrong. Burst builds are supposed to struggle with high HP builds, and those should struggle with pressure builds. And what was it again that got absolutely devastated in U35? Ah yes, non-proc based pressure.

I know I went overboard with it this time, but I really would like to see this suggestion quelled for good, before it gives the Devs any ideas...

tldr: HP cap bad, be accurate with the assesment of what needs to be adjusted

DrNukenstein

Vaqual wrote: »

I know I went overboard with it this time, but I really would like to see this suggestion quelled for good, before it gives the Devs any ideas...

tldr: HP cap bad, be accurate with the assesment of what needs to be adjusted

I agree that there are better ideas than a health cap out there, but let's not pretend that 64 points in health is not the best value you can get for your 64 points. It's less than 10% of a Melee DD's damage/healing, and available resources is more about sustain and cost (armor, food, and to a degree weapon choice) than pool size. Then there's still a ton of damage to trade in for quality of life before you can't kill anyone with your stats. With base stats, a gold nirn one handed weapon and absolutely nothing else not even a passive, a spammable tool tip will be around 5k (not good, but still at least half of the average pvp damage build tooltip). It's only up from there, with about another 2k damage coming just from passives and cp with no/few trade offs.

Cloudrest

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Bring back bleeds. For those unaware, dual wield axes had a passive bleed that cut through resistances - great for countering tanks as they couldn't block the DoT, and having high resistances didn't help them.

They took this out when they changed axes to crit damage, but imo, there should still be sources of resistance-ignoring dots outside of Oblivion damage.

God no, please. The game's already bordering on unplayable with this current meta of Vate/MDW/Maarselok DoT overload cheese. Admittedly, a lot of it comes from status effects being overtuned into oblivion, but I can't even fathom how awful the game would be to play with old bleeds under current hybridization.

If anything, DK, DoTs, and status effects all need to get smacked with a heavy nerf and the game needs to shift back into a burst meta; increase the cost of block, nerf sustain across the board to force people to play intelligently again, remove cast times on ultimates, and we'll be well on our way. Won't happen, though, unfortunately.

boi_anachronism_

Cloudrest wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Bring back bleeds. For those unaware, dual wield axes had a passive bleed that cut through resistances - great for countering tanks as they couldn't block the DoT, and having high resistances didn't help them.

They took this out when they changed axes to crit damage, but imo, there should still be sources of resistance-ignoring dots outside of Oblivion damage.

God no, please. The game's already bordering on unplayable with this current meta of Vate/MDW/Maarselok DoT overload cheese. Admittedly, a lot of it comes from status effects being overtuned into oblivion, but I can't even fathom how awful the game would be to play with old bleeds under current hybridization.

If anything, DK, DoTs, and status effects all need to get smacked with a heavy nerf and the game needs to shift back into a burst meta; increase the cost of block, nerf sustain across the board to force people to play intelligently again, remove cast times on ultimates, and we'll be well on our way. Won't happen, though, unfortunately.

A sea of death lol remove cast times for ultis. Man that would be popular im sure. I mean most ppl pvp to kills things. I think it would be entertaining but i have a sneaking suspicion that the forums would explode the same way they have over troll tanks. Honestly though.. death everywhere is preferable to me 😄

gariondavey

Cloudrest wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Bring back bleeds. For those unaware, dual wield axes had a passive bleed that cut through resistances - great for countering tanks as they couldn't block the DoT, and having high resistances didn't help them.

They took this out when they changed axes to crit damage, but imo, there should still be sources of resistance-ignoring dots outside of Oblivion damage.

God no, please. The game's already bordering on unplayable with this current meta of Vate/MDW/Maarselok DoT overload cheese. Admittedly, a lot of it comes from status effects being overtuned into oblivion, but I can't even fathom how awful the game would be to play with old bleeds under current hybridization.

If anything, DK, DoTs, and status effects all need to get smacked with a heavy nerf and the game needs to shift back into a burst meta; increase the cost of block, nerf sustain across the board to force people to play intelligently again, remove cast times on ultimates, and we'll be well on our way. Won't happen, though, unfortunately.

Good comment

LittlePinkDot

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Bring back bleeds. For those unaware, dual wield axes had a passive bleed that cut through resistances - great for countering tanks as they couldn't block the DoT, and having high resistances didn't help them.

They took this out when they changed axes to crit damage, but imo, there should still be sources of resistance-ignoring dots outside of Oblivion damage.

What about blood drinkers set with carve?

There must be a way to enhance bleeds without needing it on axes.

CameraBeardThePirate

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Bring back bleeds. For those unaware, dual wield axes had a passive bleed that cut through resistances - great for countering tanks as they couldn't block the DoT, and having high resistances didn't help them.

They took this out when they changed axes to crit damage, but imo, there should still be sources of resistance-ignoring dots outside of Oblivion damage.

What about blood drinkers set with carve?

There must be a way to enhance bleeds without needing it on axes.

The point of that comment wasn't to put them back on axes; rather, I was trying to highlight the loss of an anti-tank mechanic. Bleeds used to cut through resists, but no longer do.

Brakkish

You counter a 50k PVP tank the same way you do a concrete parking block. By simply going around it.

You don't care about it because it does zero damage to you. Also, you expend zero energy and no effort in dealing with it, simply by not dealing with it.

Tackling a parking block is time wasted in my opinion, better to just ignore it and move on.


Personal perspective since I only play BG Tanks (all classes): I relish the moment when teams engage me and I begin trolling and mocking them as they flail to no avail. the pixelated head scratches, the moment they give up (some arent so quick to learn)...

What burns me up, what gets to me?? -- When people finally do what they should be doing.. simply moving on, ignoring me.
But, experience has shown me that there's no shortage of people who must enjoy tackling parking blocks.

Necrotech_Master

Brakkish wrote: »

You counter a 50k PVP tank the same way you do a concrete parking block. By simply going around it.

You don't care about it because it does zero damage to you. Also, you expend zero energy and no effort in dealing with it, simply by not dealing with it.

Tackling a parking block is time wasted in my opinion, better to just ignore it and move on.


Personal perspective since I only play BG Tanks (all classes): I relish the moment when teams engage me and I begin trolling and mocking them as they flail to no avail. the pixelated head scratches, the moment they give up (some arent so quick to learn)...

What burns me up, what gets to me?? -- When people finally do what they should be doing.. simply moving on, ignoring me.
But, experience has shown me that there's no shortage of people who must enjoy tackling parking blocks.

this lol

i usually ignore the troll tanks, or hit them with light attacks to help generate ult, but i dont really go actively attack them until they are the last one left when they do get overwhelmed lol

Panderbander

Brakkish wrote: »

You counter a 50k PVP tank the same way you do a concrete parking block. By simply going around it.

You don't care about it because it does zero damage to you. Also, you expend zero energy and no effort in dealing with it, simply by not dealing with it.

Tackling a parking block is time wasted in my opinion, better to just ignore it and move on.


Personal perspective since I only play BG Tanks (all classes): I relish the moment when teams engage me and I begin trolling and mocking them as they flail to no avail. the pixelated head scratches, the moment they give up (some arent so quick to learn)...

What burns me up, what gets to me?? -- When people finally do what they should be doing.. simply moving on, ignoring me.
But, experience has shown me that there's no shortage of people who must enjoy tackling parking blocks.

At least until they're sitting on a flag in IC or preventing a resource capture or burning siege or interrupting rezzes or any other myriad irritating things.

Casul

Change anti cavalry caltrops to the reduce block mitigation from enemies standing inside it. Say 30-50% reduction.