[Feedback] PvP Class Balance

Bashev

Now after I played 2 weeks after a 1.5 years break I can say that there is only one overpowered class and 2 classes that are in a bad state.

DKs, Sorcs, Wardens and Arcanists are well balanced between each other.

Templars and Necros are bad. I very rarely meet some necros. Most templars are just spamming Javelin and Jesus beam (which is anoying) but this is because of the bad state of the class.

The only overpowered class is NB. That class has extremely strong burst, great healing and defense plus good sustain. You can play that class in any role that you want. Also this is the only class that you will see not using proc cheese and guess why? Because the class is strong and you can make a better build based on your skills than using procs.

All the other classes use builds based on the meta proc sets, master dual wield, way of fire, relequen (bugged double proc), vateshran destro and so on.

I want to point that this feedback is based on Battlegrounds, Imperial City CP and Cyro CP and me playing with a Bash build Arcanist.

Theignson

Yes, Zerodil is now crawling with NB.

The most absurdly overpowered PvP skill, grim focus, was just super buffed. Now with just 3 light/heavy attacks, you can get 400 extra weapon damage, PLUS do a 20k spectral bow for almost no cost, PLUS it is active on both bars, PLUS you don't need to cast it anymore to activate it.

Or for just 2H/1L attack, you get 300 free weapon damage, PLUS a 20k bow for almost no cost, PLUS you get healed for 10K.

And, Cloak just wasnt strong enough. So now you also get free Major savagery/prophecy on either bar just for loading the ability. This added to one of the strongest offensive (cloak, get free crit plus free 300 wd from vamp passive) and defensive abilites in the game

And of course everyone is using concealed weapon. Minor expedition-- for free. Free off balance if hitting from flank. PLUS free major berserk constantly. PLUS it is a spammable.

Just throw in one of the strongest burst heals in the game and you have a very tanky killing machine.

Now, I just have to decide which build to use on my NB

WoppaBoem

Theignson wrote: »

Yes, Zerodil is now crawling with NB.

The most absurdly overpowered PvP skill, grim focus, was just super buffed. Now with just 3 light/heavy attacks, you can get 400 extra weapon damage, PLUS do a 20k spectral bow for almost no cost, PLUS it is active on both bars, PLUS you don't need to cast it anymore to activate it.

Or for just 2H/1L attack, you get 300 free weapon damage, PLUS a 20k bow for almost no cost, PLUS you get healed for 10K.

And, Cloak just wasnt strong enough. So now you also get free Major savagery/prophecy on either bar just for loading the ability. This added to one of the strongest offensive (cloak, get free crit plus free 300 wd from vamp passive) and defensive abilites in the game

And of course everyone is using concealed weapon. Minor expedition-- for free. Free off balance if hitting from flank. PLUS free major berserk constantly. PLUS it is a spammable.

Just throw in one of the strongest burst heals in the game and you have a very tanky killing machine.

Now, I just have to decide which build to use on my NB

Very well put and its great NB have much but not if you compare it with the others classes, i simply dont understand the developers and I also gave up to understand many moons ago. I would not mind if all classes beside NB get a good review and give it the NB treatment so everyone can be tanky killing machines because that's what everyone wants to be but give many options. The more classes you can fight against the more fun it as you have to adjust yourself in order to beat any said class. It become really boring if you fighting the same classes and builds all the time. More the merrier.

Bashev

I agree, the thing is that all classes should be like NBs and you should be able to make different builds without the need to use proc cheese. Sadly the other classes are not on that level, even DKs.

katorga

DK is S-tier, all other classes are B or lower.

One developer continues to slip buffs in every patch for NB, resulting is the class being overpowered in specific scenarios. But it does not have the massive combination of defense, healing, and offense that DK has at the moment.

Warden, Stamina Sorcerer, Arcanist are balanced.

Templar and Magicka Sorcerer are underpowered at the moment.

Necro is beyond bad. ZOS ruined the class.

Every class is balanced in a Ball Group.

GooGa592

Bashev wrote: »

Now after I played 2 weeks after a 1.5 years break I can say that there is only one overpowered class and 2 classes that are in a bad state.

DKs, Sorcs, Wardens and Arcanists are well balanced between each other.

Templars and Necros are bad. I very rarely meet some necros. Most templars are just spamming Javelin and Jesus beam (which is anoying) but this is because of the bad state of the class.

The only overpowered class is NB. That class has extremely strong burst, great healing and defense plus good sustain. You can play that class in any role that you want. Also this is the only class that you will see not using proc cheese and guess why? Because the class is strong and you can make a better build based on your skills than using procs.

All the other classes use builds based on the meta proc sets, master dual wield, way of fire, relequen (bugged double proc), vateshran destro and so on.

I want to point that this feedback is based on Battlegrounds, Imperial City CP and Cyro CP and me playing with a Bash build Arcanist.

DK's are also very OP these days. DK's and NB's are the most out of balance right now. They both have way too much burst healing.

Bashev

katorga wrote: »

DK is S-tier, all other classes are B or lower.

One developer continues to slip buffs in every patch for NB, resulting is the class being overpowered in specific scenarios. But it does not have the massive combination of defense, healing, and offense that DK has at the moment.

Warden, Stamina Sorcerer, Arcanist are balanced.

Templar and Magicka Sorcerer are underpowered at the moment.

Necro is beyond bad. ZOS ruined the class.

Every class is balanced in a Ball Group.

DKs are in a very good spot but it is because 2 things which soon will be gone if you ask me.

1. Corrosive armor - i guess it will be nerfed soon
2. Everyone is a vamprie so extra flame damage. Once undeath is nerfed DKs damage will be way lower.

Necrotech_Master

NB tend to have its own form of proc "cheese" (as people put it) in the form of swamp raider + scavenging demise

cloak basically guarantees scavenging demise will go off

Tommy_The_Gun

katorga wrote: »

DK is S-tier, all other classes are B or lower.

Yep.

The difference between DK & NB is that DKs for the most part are super easy to play compared to NB and and yet they offer better overall performance. NB in right hands can also perform very well (A or A+ tier), but you not only need a "lag free" environment for that, but also you need to be a at least good player. In case of NB the skill cap is quite high. For instance, their mobility tool (Shadow Image) requires a lot of practise to get used to it and a lot of planning ahead, and very often - luck.

WoppaBoem

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

DK is S-tier, all other classes are B or lower.

Yep.

The difference between DK & NB is that DKs for the most part are super easy to play compared to NB and and yet they offer better overall performance. NB in right hands can also perform very well (A or A+ tier), but you not only need a "lag free" environment for that, but also you need to be a at least good player. In case of NB the skill cap is quite high. For instance, their mobility tool (Shadow Image) requires a lot of practise to get used to it and a lot of planning ahead, and very often - luck.

But DK's are also easy to play against NB's are not when they have their bow proc and incap their so much more deadly than a DK and NB's can just hold block or cloack use their tubro burst heal. DK in corrosive is annoying but very obvious when there are in corrosive just avoid dmg for 12 seconds and their window is gone. NB's if they not kill you in the first burst attempt wait max 10 seconds and they go again.

Bashev

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

DK is S-tier, all other classes are B or lower.

Yep.

The difference between DK & NB is that DKs for the most part are super easy to play compared to NB and and yet they offer better overall performance. NB in right hands can also perform very well (A or A+ tier), but you not only need a "lag free" environment for that, but also you need to be a at least good player. In case of NB the skill cap is quite high. For instance, their mobility tool (Shadow Image) requires a lot of practise to get used to it and a lot of planning ahead, and very often - luck.

And what is the DK mobility tool? Oh wait there is none. If you build a NB brawler as you build a DK brawler, NB will have way better chances for burst and killing the target. On top of that you can have an escape.

SandandStars

DK is deliberately designed so that new/casual players can engage in PvP and have fun/ not get clobbered.

NB is another story completely… Apparently the one dev who is known to pvp mains an NB, so there is that.

It’s too bad the 1 class that can cloak and gank is now also the most overloaded offensively (by a magnitude) and also has strong heals and superior speed to every other class.

After 3 years of playing pvp, and reading forums, I have to conclude that PvP balance is just not something they’re focused on.

So, yeah, play NB how you want, or play DK with super defense heals sustain and whomp someone with corrosive or leap occasionally,

Not really much diversity of options if you pvp competitively.

I live for off-meta builds on non-DK or non-NB. I like problem-solving and challenging combat,

But Every Time I run into a skilled NB they will decisively kick my butt. I can land 3 skills to their 1, out-block, dodge roll, and combo them, but my Magsorc or Arcanist or Magden just can’t keep up with their vastly superior damage and toolset.

It sucks.

katorga

Bashev wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

DK is S-tier, all other classes are B or lower.

Yep.

The difference between DK & NB is that DKs for the most part are super easy to play compared to NB and and yet they offer better overall performance. NB in right hands can also perform very well (A or A+ tier), but you not only need a "lag free" environment for that, but also you need to be a at least good player. In case of NB the skill cap is quite high. For instance, their mobility tool (Shadow Image) requires a lot of practise to get used to it and a lot of planning ahead, and very often - luck.

And what is the DK mobility tool? Oh wait there is none. If you build a NB brawler as you build a DK brawler, NB will have way better chances for burst and killing the target. On top of that you can have an escape.

DK's don't need a mobility tool, but if they do they have same same options as the other classes that are not sorc or NB. I also don't "need" undeath on my DK. Everyone else does so big damage buff for me.

Brawler v. Brawler my DK will kill a NB the majority of the time. I have the chance of mitigating their burst combo, but 100% pen cannot be mitigated except by running away and purging dots.

Easier to play is dead on. DK takes a heck of a lot less effort than NB. DK is not a class I really enjoy though, but you really handicap yourself not playing one.

CameraBeardThePirate

Bashev wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

DK is S-tier, all other classes are B or lower.

Yep.

The difference between DK & NB is that DKs for the most part are super easy to play compared to NB and and yet they offer better overall performance. NB in right hands can also perform very well (A or A+ tier), but you not only need a "lag free" environment for that, but also you need to be a at least good player. In case of NB the skill cap is quite high. For instance, their mobility tool (Shadow Image) requires a lot of practise to get used to it and a lot of planning ahead, and very often - luck.

And what is the DK mobility tool? Oh wait there is none. If you build a NB brawler as you build a DK brawler, NB will have way better chances for burst and killing the target. On top of that you can have an escape.

Uhhh might wanna check their skills again. DK has a gap closer that grants Major Berserk and Major Expedition, as well as a skill that grants snare/immobilize immunity.

By my count that'd be 2 mobility tools.

PhoenixGrey

Nb is god mode
Nb was god mode
Nb will be god mode

PhoenixGrey

Bashev wrote: »

Now after I played 2 weeks after a 1.5 years break I can say that there is only one overpowered class and 2 classes that are in a bad state.

DKs, Sorcs, Wardens and Arcanists are well balanced between each other.

Templars and Necros are bad. I very rarely meet some necros. Most templars are just spamming Javelin and Jesus beam (which is anoying) but this is because of the bad state of the class.

The only overpowered class is NB. That class has extremely strong burst, great healing and defense plus good sustain. You can play that class in any role that you want. Also this is the only class that you will see not using proc cheese and guess why? Because the class is strong and you can make a better build based on your skills than using procs.

All the other classes use builds based on the meta proc sets, master dual wield, way of fire, relequen (bugged double proc), vateshran destro and so on.

I want to point that this feedback is based on Battlegrounds, Imperial City CP and Cyro CP and me playing with a Bash build Arcanist.

While nb is the best pvp class in the game I would say it is better this way and probably the only pvp class in the game worth playing

On Other classes like a sorc it doesn’t require you to actually use your skill bar and you embrace the afk playstyle with 3 procs and 40k hp

I am not sure the question of balance even comes up for other classes except nb. What exactly are you gonna balance when you are not even playing the game lol.

Not trying to be sarcastic but it’s just the way it is

SandandStars

Don’t you think it’s kind of weird that a game with this much money and stature continues to get worse balance and become less interesting to play consistently over the years? (pvp)

I just got out of a bg where 50% of the players or more were DKs running masters dw/vatesh.

I honestly don’t remember it ever being this bad in terms of lack of diversity of classes that can compete.

mmtaniac

Can't play pvp at all right now. 0 diversity. This two sets should be nerfed or changed ,nerf is too drastic ,change can be good option for something complete different.

SkaraMinoc

NB's fall apart against tanky damage dealers.

You can run 2 damage sets, a damage mythic, and a damage monster set and still have high mitigation. Lingering Flare, Temporal Guard / Ransack, Resolving Vigor, and Major Resolve will give you basic defense. Add defensive CP, Undeath, Esoteric Environment Greaves, and Nibenay Bay Battlereeve's 5% passive damage reduction and you're nearly invulnerable to NB's. I took a 4k bow proc the other day while still doing 7k+ dps. Was funny. Add Retreating Maneuver and Perfected Spectral Cloak for Major Evasion and 6% damage reduction for even more lulz.

We are in a very tanky meta.

SkaraMinoc

Bashev wrote: »

I want to point that this feedback is based on me playing with a Bash build Arcanist.

There's your problem. Arcanist is arguably the worst class for bash builds as all your damage comes from building Crux and slotting Arcanist abilities for the passives. Bash builds gain almost nothing from the Arcanist.

I play bash builds on every class. Switch to Sorcerer, Templar, Warden, or DK and you'll have much better results.

baselesschart

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

NB's fall apart against tanky damage dealers.

You can run 2 damage sets, a damage mythic, and a damage monster set and still have high mitigation. Lingering Flare, Temporal Guard / Ransack, Resolving Vigor, and Major Resolve will give you basic defense. Add defensive CP, Undeath, Esoteric Environment Greaves, and Nibenay Bay Battlereeve's 5% passive damage reduction and you're nearly invulnerable to NB's. I took a 4k bow proc the other day while still doing 7k+ dps. Was funny. Add Retreating Maneuver and Perfected Spectral Cloak for Major Evasion and 6% damage reduction for even more lulz.

We are in a very tanky meta.

I wish more people realized its so easy to build mitigation to be practically unkillable in 1v1 situations. There are some people I just will never kill, even with a well placed nightblade burst combo

Bashev

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

I want to point that this feedback is based on me playing with a Bash build Arcanist.

There's your problem. Arcanist is arguably the worst class for bash builds as all your damage comes from building Crux and slotting Arcanist abilities for the passives. Bash builds gain almost nothing from the Arcanist.

I play bash builds on every class. Switch to Sorcerer, Templar, Warden, or DK and you'll have much better results.

I am doing just fine, I dont complain. I doubt that a NB can kill me on 1vs1, I will also maybe not be able to kill that nightblade for 15 seconds while I use detection pot.

I saw you previously described a brawler build, make the same build on a NB and it will stand out vs almost every other brawler build. Maybe only DK can compete with that.

Anyway my personal feedback is that NB are a better class than the rest. I am fully against nerfs so I just want the other classes to be buffed to be the same level as NBs.

SandandStars

Ultimately, my dissatifaction with current eso pvp is that skill is completely overshadowed/superceded by gear and build.

Grind the meta gear on your meta class and spam 2 buttons like a chimp. Oh wait, you might have to switch bars, or press Leap.

The current design rewards simplistic play, with gear procs and class doing the work for you.

I seriously nail Dks as much as 5 hits to one on my Magden, rolling around timing & lining up shalks while monitoring sustain with heavy attacks between volleys of frost reach and fetcherflies, timing an ice comet… and most of the time theyre sitting there blocking, waiting for corrosive or leap, and able to heal up to full when they get low.

It’s an idiotic meta. There’s no way a dev is playing competitive pvp. They would hate this crap.

larthan

I literally have only a PVP stamplar I've played and leveled since release. It's in its worst state since I can remember. Group play, maybe...but I play solo. It's become I can either survive someone else, or stalemate. Regardless, it requires me to sacrifice my builds to even achieve some sort of balance, while the opponent spams dual wield master axes and nothing else. This pressure alone forces me to become defensive...I'm sorry, but anyone playing a stamplar solo is hard pressed to find enjoyment in pvp atm.

/r
Larthan

KlauthWarthog

Classes are perfectly balanced on PvP right now, you put DK and NB on one side of the scale, everybody else on the other, and it levels out nicely.

StaticWave

NB is very bursty and if built right can also be very tanky (unless against DoT builds). DK has lots of afk pressure and can also be tanky. Warden is very tanky and has almost the same afk pressure as a DK but ranged.

I've dueled and fought these 3 classes in BGs for several months and while each class has a different counter, all 3 classes share the same issue that makes them top tier - too much tankiness.

NB was never a problem because it was squishy, but Healthy Offering allows it to be tanky. DK's damage is kitable, but you can't kill a competent DK sitting on Ash Cloud and block tapping with Coag. Warden is arguably tankier than both of those classes. You would have to intentionally throw to die on a Warden lol.

My anecdotal evidence inclines me to believe that these 3 classes are overperforming because of their defensive kit. Take a Sorc for example. A full proc stamsorc has just as much pressure as those 3 classes, but it severely lacks in the defensive department. This forces it to rely on sets for defense, and we all know that Dragon's Appetite's burst heal is no where near the same potency as Coag/Healthy Offering/Artic Blast. This major weakness is why proc stamsorc can easily be killed if you have more pressure than it. By forcing the Sorc on back bar, its weakness of having a lackluster defensive kit surfaces and will cause its death.

If we address these 3 classes' defensive kit carefully without overnerfing them, I think we can achieve a more balanced state of PvP.

Bashev

StaticWave wrote: »

NB is very bursty and if built right can also be very tanky (unless against DoT builds). DK has lots of afk pressure and can also be tanky. Warden is very tanky and has almost the same afk pressure as a DK but ranged.

I've dueled and fought these 3 classes in BGs for several months and while each class has a different counter, all 3 classes share the same issue that makes them top tier - too much tankiness.

NB was never a problem because it was squishy, but Healthy Offering allows it to be tanky. DK's damage is kitable, but you can't kill a competent DK sitting on Ash Cloud and block tapping with Coag. Warden is arguably tankier than both of those classes. You would have to intentionally throw to die on a Warden lol.

My anecdotal evidence inclines me to believe that these 3 classes are overperforming because of their defensive kit. Take a Sorc for example. A full proc stamsorc has just as much pressure as those 3 classes, but it severely lacks in the defensive department. This forces it to rely on sets for defense, and we all know that Dragon's Appetite's burst heal is no where near the same potency as Coag/Healthy Offering/Artic Blast. This major weakness is why proc stamsorc can easily be killed if you have more pressure than it. By forcing the Sorc on back bar, its weakness of having a lackluster defensive kit surfaces and will cause its death.

If we address these 3 classes' defensive kit carefully without overnerfing them, I think we can achieve a more balanced state of PvP.

It is not only the defensive kit. Actually for these 3 classes is more the offensive kit. You can have a really nice defensive with templar, necro and arcanist too but you do not have the burst to secure the kill while you apply the pressure.

And from all these 3 the best burst comes from NBs that is why they are on top of the list.

SandandStars

StaticWave wrote: »

NB is very bursty and if built right can also be very tanky (unless against DoT builds). DK has lots of afk pressure and can also be tanky. Warden is very tanky and has almost the same afk pressure as a DK but ranged.

I've dueled and fought these 3 classes in BGs for several months and while each class has a different counter, all 3 classes share the same issue that makes them top tier - too much tankiness.

NB was never a problem because it was squishy, but Healthy Offering allows it to be tanky. DK's damage is kitable, but you can't kill a competent DK sitting on Ash Cloud and block tapping with Coag. Warden is arguably tankier than both of those classes. You would have to intentionally throw to die on a Warden lol.

My anecdotal evidence inclines me to believe that these 3 classes are overperforming because of their defensive kit. Take a Sorc for example. A full proc stamsorc has just as much pressure as those 3 classes, but it severely lacks in the defensive department. This forces it to rely on sets for defense, and we all know that Dragon's Appetite's burst heal is no where near the same potency as Coag/Healthy Offering/Artic Blast. This major weakness is why proc stamsorc can easily be killed if you have more pressure than it. By forcing the Sorc on back bar, its weakness of having a lackluster defensive kit surfaces and will cause its death.

If we address these 3 classes' defensive kit carefully without overnerfing them, I think we can achieve a more balanced state of PvP.

I would differentiate between the offensive class skills available to DK and NB vs. the lack of offensive class skills available to Warden. Warden has no class spammable and no class execute.

I certainly run into extremely tanky, impossible to kill Warden tanks, but the only way they do damage is by going with the masters dw copycat Meta, or dizzy/executioner 2h skill line.

Nb & Dk are the only classes that have effective spammables, in PVP. Unfortunately these classes also have everything else available to them as well.

katorga

SandandStars wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NB is very bursty and if built right can also be very tanky (unless against DoT builds). DK has lots of afk pressure and can also be tanky. Warden is very tanky and has almost the same afk pressure as a DK but ranged.

I've dueled and fought these 3 classes in BGs for several months and while each class has a different counter, all 3 classes share the same issue that makes them top tier - too much tankiness.

NB was never a problem because it was squishy, but Healthy Offering allows it to be tanky. DK's damage is kitable, but you can't kill a competent DK sitting on Ash Cloud and block tapping with Coag. Warden is arguably tankier than both of those classes. You would have to intentionally throw to die on a Warden lol.

My anecdotal evidence inclines me to believe that these 3 classes are overperforming because of their defensive kit. Take a Sorc for example. A full proc stamsorc has just as much pressure as those 3 classes, but it severely lacks in the defensive department. This forces it to rely on sets for defense, and we all know that Dragon's Appetite's burst heal is no where near the same potency as Coag/Healthy Offering/Artic Blast. This major weakness is why proc stamsorc can easily be killed if you have more pressure than it. By forcing the Sorc on back bar, its weakness of having a lackluster defensive kit surfaces and will cause its death.

If we address these 3 classes' defensive kit carefully without overnerfing them, I think we can achieve a more balanced state of PvP.

Nb & Dk are the only classes that have effective spammables, in PVP. Unfortunately these classes also have everything else available to them as well.

True DK and NB have everything, but DK Corrosive Armor into Take Flight is better than all the other classes combined.

It is beyond me that I can generate ultimate while in Corrosive, but it is what it is.

SandandStars

Compared to where PvP was at 2-3 years ago, class and gear balance feels significantly worse. It seems like the combat dev team has taken a different direction regarding pvp class balance, without communicating it to the customers.

Or perhaps it’s just far less of a priority, and what we have now is the result of that.

StaticWave

Bashev wrote: »

It is not only the defensive kit. Actually for these 3 classes is more the offensive kit. You can have a really nice defensive with templar, necro and arcanist too but you do not have the burst to secure the kill while you apply the pressure.

If you have really nice offense but do not have enough survivability, you will still be easily killed. That is why I brought up stamsorc because the issue with proc stamsorc is that it relies on sets for defense and once those sets get nerfed it will also die much quicker.

Bashev wrote: »

And from all these 3 the best burst comes from NBs that is why they are on top of the list.

NB's burst is avoidable. Yes it takes more effort, but it's actually avoidable. The problem, like I said, stems from all 3 classes being super difficult to kill. I've dueled all 3 every day for 3 months and whenever I get them to low HP they can easily shoot back to full with block healing and stacking HoTs.

Trying to nerf damage would just turn them into templar and necro. I would rather have a meta where all classes do a lot of damage but are also easy to kill, than a meta where all classes don't do as much damage but are hard to kill.