arcanist fatecarver needs a nerf or other classes need a boost for better competition

Quethrosar

i hate how there's almost no possible way to out dps an arcanist fatecarver now. doesn't even seem skill based.
if an arcanist is in the trial, you can pretty much guarantee everyone will be lower dps.

ixthUA

Isn't it the point of the current content update? Buy Necrom zone DLC + dungeon DLC (or subscribe to ESO+) to get arcanist DD.

Marcus684

ixthUA wrote: »

Isn't it the point of the current content update? Buy Necrom zone DLC + dungeon DLC (or subscribe to ESO+) to get arcanist DD.

100%. This pattern of "Introduce new OP class/gear set/antiquity" to sell new chapters is well documented. Rest assured that Arcanist will get the Warden/Necromancer treatment at some point. In the meantime just enjoy the faster clears.

Necrotech_Master

i think arcanist is actually one of the most balanced class releases they have done

necro and warden were incredibly OP when they were first released, and to be honest at this point they definitely have been over-nerfed

arcanist without the beam is absolutely not competitive dps wise, and the beam has a lot of downsides, if you get interrupted, your losing dmg, if you dont have 3 crux, your losing a ton of dmg, more mobile fights, you move too slow while beaming

in stationary fights that they can sit there and beam, it works if you have the right build

arcanist beam i would say is about equivalent to a HA build in terms of ease of use, but if the arcanist is not using the beam, they are likely not DPSing

LittlePinkDot

Quethrosar wrote: »

i hate how there's almost no possible way to out dps an arcanist fatecarver now. doesn't even seem skill based.
if an arcanist is in the trial, you can pretty much guarantee everyone will be lower dps.

Fatecarver sucks for PVP though. It's so easy to just move out of the way, then they wasted 3 crux for nothing.

Necrotech_Master

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i hate how there's almost no possible way to out dps an arcanist fatecarver now. doesn't even seem skill based.
if an arcanist is in the trial, you can pretty much guarantee everyone will be lower dps.

Fatecarver sucks for PVP though. It's so easy to just move out of the way, then they wasted 3 crux for nothing.

i didnt have too terrible of a time with fatecarver in cyro when i was trying to rank up to get caltrops, but definitely have to use it in the right locations (its great for choke points)

i also play on PC and completely disabled the aim assist feature and feel like im able to hit people a lot better after that

CameraBeardThePirate

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i hate how there's almost no possible way to out dps an arcanist fatecarver now. doesn't even seem skill based.
if an arcanist is in the trial, you can pretty much guarantee everyone will be lower dps.

Fatecarver sucks for PVP though. It's so easy to just move out of the way, then they wasted 3 crux for nothing.

It doesn't suck, it's just an ability that you have to actually aim.

Also, you probably shouldn't be using it when the opponent has the ability to just move out of the way. Set it up and let it rip.

merpins

Fatecarver doesn't need any nerfs tbh. The damage of the class is pretty balanced, it's the tanking/healing/supporting that are overtuned and need some adjustments. Damage wise, the class is fine. What people seem to have a problem with is the ease of getting that damage; You don't need to practice complicated rotations like NB, or get two trial sets like most other classes in this game. You just need a decent understanding of the game mechanics, one mythic, Deadly and Pillars, and one monster helm piece, and boom you can have good dps. That doesn't make the class overpowered, since its dps is lower than other top end dps options. The class is just easier than others. It's fine to have easier options, those can be fun too.

Side note, a lot of the dummy parse numbers are inflated since in practical situations, you will probably get knocked out of beam at least once resulting in your damage to drop hard.

Marcus684

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i hate how there's almost no possible way to out dps an arcanist fatecarver now. doesn't even seem skill based.
if an arcanist is in the trial, you can pretty much guarantee everyone will be lower dps.

Fatecarver sucks for PVP though. It's so easy to just move out of the way, then they wasted 3 crux for nothing.

I have to admit that I get a little thrill when I get to interrupt an Arcanist's beam, knowing they had to build up to it.

olsborg

In pvp its even more insane cause when a zerg with more then one or even JUST the one arcanist is spamming you with AOE you cant dodgeroll away from it, youre just rekt with no counterplay.

RicAlmighty

I can show you at least a dozen builds that out DPS Arcanist right now. The class is fine as is.

El_Borracho

I don't understand the obsession some players have with having to "out DPS" others. Even if Arcanist "out DPS'd" every other class (it doesn't), how does that impact you? Oh no, others in my raid are putting out more DPS than I am, the shame!

@Necrotech_Master is spot on. The strengths of the class, and Fatecarver, are balanced by its weaknesses. Its strong, and expensive. It can be interrupted by a lot of things, including light attacks from an add or boss. You have to use other skills, which are expensive, to buff or amp up Fatecarver to get its full strength. If you spam Fatecarver, you will rapidly run out of resources. You can't use Fatecarver all the time, as you can not block-cast, or pick up shards or orbs while Fatecarver is active.

Please don't pretend Fatecarver is the Jesus Beam, which is not susceptible to any of those drawbacks. And Arcanist, as a class, is not the Oakensorc, he class that until recently also dominated most raid groups with its almost unlimited resource pools and high damage that "doesn't even seem skill based."

Necrotech_Master

@El_Borracho actually my experience with cost is the opposite, 2 cost reduction glyphs and fatecarver costs 0 resources (and general sustain is excellent with this setup), sure im probably losing a little dmg, but its much easier to maintain because it costs nothing lol

the only similarity that jesus beam and fatecarver have is that both can be interrupted, the rest of the functionality and use cases are, i agree, quite different

El_Borracho

@Necrotech_Master Nice, might have to try, though haven't had the sustain issues when in an organized group. Went full damage and stamina glyphs. Only pops up when doing solo stuff or in messy Bastion runs.

Honestly, I love the Arcanist. It does hit hard, its not difficult to play, but I haven't found it to be far and away better than other classes. The one MASSIVE advantage is the beam cutting through adds/enemies. That is a force multiplier unlike anything else in the game.

Kusto

Arcanist ST dps is good but not the best, but it's too easy to play, insane survivability and sustain. But aoe, oh boy, it's op af. Anyone saying otherwise hasn't done vet trials or plays the class wrong. No matter which group I play, even with pugs, if there's any Arcanist in group they absolutely dominate add pulls. Double dps compared to other classes. Numbers appear very high on boss fights also where there's adds to cleave.
If anything needs nerfing then it should be the crazy aoe and sustain, ST dps is fine.

SandandStars

If anything is OP on arcanist, I’d say it’s the charm morph of the stun. I swear that thing hits me even when I’m blocking it.

Then you’re pretty much dead.

StarOfElyon

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i hate how there's almost no possible way to out dps an arcanist fatecarver now. doesn't even seem skill based.
if an arcanist is in the trial, you can pretty much guarantee everyone will be lower dps.

Fatecarver sucks for PVP though. It's so easy to just move out of the way, then they wasted 3 crux for nothing.

It doesn't suck, it's just an ability that you have to actually aim.

Also, you probably shouldn't be using it when the opponent has the ability to just move out of the way. Set it up and let it rip.

The whole class is carried by proc sets. You're not killing shiznit with fatecarver without vate ice staff/masters dual wield.

OtarTheMad

StarOfElyon wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Quethrosar wrote: »

i hate how there's almost no possible way to out dps an arcanist fatecarver now. doesn't even seem skill based.
if an arcanist is in the trial, you can pretty much guarantee everyone will be lower dps.

Fatecarver sucks for PVP though. It's so easy to just move out of the way, then they wasted 3 crux for nothing.

It doesn't suck, it's just an ability that you have to actually aim.

Also, you probably shouldn't be using it when the opponent has the ability to just move out of the way. Set it up and let it rip.

The whole class is carried by proc sets. You're not killing shiznit with fatecarver without vate ice staff/masters dual wield.

Farecarver hits real hard but has some real negatives attached like being able to be dodged easily, NPC’s and players can knock back/stun your cast and the whole class being mid-range. That seems balanced to me.

Also I don’t disagree that I see a lot of people using the same build for Arcanist but I think that has more to do with people not exploring other options and just doing what popular players are doing. Nothing wrong with that but I have found that using destro/resto with either deadly or war maiden and whatever support second set you want works real well too. Don’t necessarily need vateshran and master dw but it’s easier to follow meta in a game that changes so much versus spending weeks or months theorycrafting just to have your researched build be crap because of a new update.

Daoin

is this another 'mommy zenimax, im being outparsed. Send in the neft patrol' post ? people spent good money to enjoy something and thats what we got. if your saying its broke and they sold us a broken product let them explain that to us officially so we can ask for refunds before its nerfed and we all just live in regret of spending anything at all for the arcanist so close to release date

notyuu

Sure Fatecarver hits like a truck but it only does so if you can aquire a fistfull of buffs, which depending on group comp can take anywhere from 4 to 15 gcd and then spend another 2-4 GCDs building crux before unleashing the laser, during that wind up time every other class can match or quite easily surprass the damage output of the laser.

tl;dr Wind-up times on arcanist laser makes its net dps mid when compared to other classes

jerj6925

As others have said just wait until sales slow down, then arcanist will be nerfed trash.

Norith_Gilheart_Flail

I like Arcanist for it's simple, class focussed toolset. You have a builder, a debuffer, and a spender.

You need to manage your crux, or the difference in tick damage when you are locked to that one abilities cast duration is noticeable.

If anything, it's be wonderful if the other classes received a thematic adjustment so you could get away with essentially one barring on other classes.

MagDK being the only other one currently I feel being almost as focussed to be able to get away with one bar representation, and also equally thematic.

DUTCH_REAPER

Have you parsed with the class in its various setups? Majority is aoe. I do way more damage with my NB (over100k) arc dps is simple, fun and great for newer players.
The arc provides so much utility in a group tho. I will ride the ARC wave until they nerf them into the ground. But until then. LEAVE ARC ALONE!

Playing since beta. Awesome job on the ARC class Zos

CameraBeardThePirate

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Playing since beta. Awesome job on the ARC class Zos

Just chiming in to +1 this. I'm fairly outspoken with my criticism here, but this class? Crazy fun. Super unique, fun theme, and all of their skills just feel good to use.

Ghaleb

Had a similar discussion lately with a guild mate, who said that Arcanist is not OP and other classes out-dps it easily. So, I checked some logs and this was the result (the screenshots are for Veteran Hardmode Trials - they get "worse", meaning more Arcanist'y in Veteran only trials). This overview shows what also had been discussed endlessly with the Oakensorc-Builds. Dummy-parses can't always be 1:1 translated to concrete content. In the standard Dummy parse, there are other classes, out-DPSing the Arcanist. But in real content, the Arcanist - predominantely - seems to be King of the field currently:

Sunspire:


Rockgrove:


Dreadsailreef:


Kynes:


Sanity's Edge:


So there are some scenarios, where other classes can compete. But when you look at the overview, the picture is pretty clear pretty fast.

I always call the Arcanist the one-bar-build for two-bar-build-players, as it is freakingly easy to simply burn stuff away. Due to the shield of your beam, you can even stand in stupid (not everywhere but more than the usual glass-cannon DD in trials can) without dying and still apply a stupid amount of damage. The only competence you need is positioning and voila.

In my opinion (and your's can of course deviate), high DPS needs to be a question of effort and mastery (wink, wink ZOS), which you need to work for. Hence, I'd say the Arcanist is in conflict with ZOS' own combat "deep dive", they posted December last year.

But of course the expectation was, that the Arcanist would be OP at the beginning. And lo and behold: The Arcanist is rather OP. Now, I think it would be a great course of action, to level the other classes up to what the Arcanist can achieve and with that, re-establishing some balance and relevance for other classes (looking at you Nightblades, Templars, Necros (minus the Buff-Slaves), Sorcs and DD-Wardens).

But knowing ZOS, they will nerf the Arcanist to realms unkown, similar to the Necro, which is meanwhile a pain in the ass to play, as, even when standing right in front of the boss, my blastbones contemplate what to do and you simply can't keep up a rotation while you have to check every freakin' time if your blastbones went off.

So folks. Enjoy the Arcanist while it lasts. Somewhere around next year the first nerfs will trickle in.

Daoin

i would ask for a refund next year then, there is absolutely nothing wrong with arcanist but again your thinking they are selling a brand as buy now nerf later and people would still buy it knowing this. showing 5 trials or so and from the the best trial runners from the hundreds being run each day means nothing to anyone in particular. most i would say are an even split of classes still. and i know for a fact arcanist are always not gunning at the top of the dps list.

dinokstrunz

Yeah fatecarver in PvE is hilarious, pulling some silly numbers with that one skill. Probably shouldn't be that strong given how easy it is to pull off. Also the class in general just feels soulless and boring with less depth to it compared to other classes. I played it for about a month in both PvE & PvP before I got bored with it and how simple it was, outside of various skills its complete *** lol.

OtarTheMad

Ghaleb wrote: »

Had a similar discussion lately with a guild mate, who said that Arcanist is not OP and other classes out-dps it easily. So, I checked some logs and this was the result (the screenshots are for Veteran Hardmode Trials - they get "worse", meaning more Arcanist'y in Veteran only trials). This overview shows what also had been discussed endlessly with the Oakensorc-Builds. Dummy-parses can't always be 1:1 translated to concrete content. In the standard Dummy parse, there are other classes, out-DPSing the Arcanist. But in real content, the Arcanist - predominantely - seems to be King of the field currently:

Sunspire:


Rockgrove:


Dreadsailreef:


Kynes:


Sanity's Edge:


So there are some scenarios, where other classes can compete. But when you look at the overview, the picture is pretty clear pretty fast.

I always call the Arcanist the one-bar-build for two-bar-build-players, as it is freakingly easy to simply burn stuff away. Due to the shield of your beam, you can even stand in stupid (not everywhere but more than the usual glass-cannon DD in trials can) without dying and still apply a stupid amount of damage. The only competence you need is positioning and voila.

In my opinion (and your's can of course deviate), high DPS needs to be a question of effort and mastery (wink, wink ZOS), which you need to work for. Hence, I'd say the Arcanist is in conflict with ZOS' own combat "deep dive", they posted December last year.

But of course the expectation was, that the Arcanist would be OP at the beginning. And lo and behold: The Arcanist is rather OP. Now, I think it would be a great course of action, to level the other classes up to what the Arcanist can achieve and with that, re-establishing some balance and relevance for other classes (looking at you Nightblades, Templars, Necros (minus the Buff-Slaves), Sorcs and DD-Wardens).

But knowing ZOS, they will nerf the Arcanist to realms unkown, similar to the Necro, which is meanwhile a pain in the ass to play, as, even when standing right in front of the boss, my blastbones contemplate what to do and you simply can't keep up a rotation while you have to check every freakin' time if your blastbones went off.

So folks. Enjoy the Arcanist while it lasts. Somewhere around next year the first nerfs will trickle in.

It’s really hard to base any opinion of a class on Vet HM Trials solely. That’s just one part of the game and I would hope that when it comes to class balance ZOS takes more than one part of the game into consideration.

In my opinion it should be based on every part of the game collectively because if you only look at one part, you can get the wrong idea. As an example, even to this day, people say Necro was OP when it hit live because of trial leaderboards to which myself and even the HM leaderboard players came out, and still come out, to say that Necro was garbage when it hit live… it was the debuff on the Ultimate that was OP. As soon as that debuff was nerfed, Necro use dropped quick.

Fact is leaderboard chasers, hardcore endgamers and people of that ilk, are always going to use the class that gets them the highest/fastest score even if that class, overall, is crap and just has an OP buff or debuff. Nothing wrong with that style of play at all either, not for me but whatever. ZOS shouldn’t be nerfing or buffing a class based on it though.

You got arenas, trials, BGs, Cyrodiil PvP, IC, overland PvE, dungeons and dueling to all take into consideration or at least I truly hope they do at this point.

I think the Arcanist will probably have some things toned down, like the shield ultimate, but I think the damage is fine just based on the fact that you have to aim it, rely on crux for power (which already got completely changed) and really time things with your stuns, which in PvP can be hard. If you nerf that, it completely kills the class in PvP and some other modes which isn’t smart. ZOS took the wrong path with Necromancer, pretty much just nerfing the few things it did without looking at the major holes it had, and look at what we have now… necro is a kind of a joke. Overall, Arcanist is not OP at all but does have some things that need to be toned down like the shield ultimate. I would hate for Arcanist to go down the same path as Necro.

Marcus684

Maybe Arcanists are pulling top numbers in group content because the players who are good at putting up high DPS numbers are playing Arcanist. It's kinda like the DK hype. Are DKs really that overtuned or is it that the top players are playing DK?

CameraBeardThePirate

Marcus684 wrote: »

Maybe Arcanists are pulling top numbers in group content because the players who are good at putting up high DPS numbers are playing Arcanist. It's kinda like the DK hype. Are DKs really that overtuned or is it that the top players are playing DK?

This is definitely part of it. Arcanists can pull great numbers, but there's also likely a bias being seen - you see a lot of Arcanists in logs right now because it's the shiny new class everyone wants to play.

DUTCH_REAPER

I feel that after reading these comments about arc, more and more of you top, hitting hard, high end dps are upset that newer players or players who weren’t hitting numbers high as you are NOW hitting them or closer to it, and that makes you upset? The class is easy and hits. It doesn’t hit the hardest but man it makes group content so much easier and fun. It’s the new class. Ofcourse you will see more of them at present. But it is not the top dps class. It just feels like they’re maybe a little jealously 🤷‍♂️ for arc. I really feel like when they made this class, they were at the table and the boss said “How do we make a class that a brand new player can use, and be able to do great (not the best) but Great damage with almost no rotation.?”

Arc is phenomenal. It is my favorite tank to play. It is my favorite dps to play both pve and pvp. And it is my favorite healer. Which is crazy bc I thought I would hate the class when it came out haha.