Why do you have to be a theory crafter to be good enough for vet trials?

Recent

I enjoy the group content and being part of a team but this game feels like it's mainly designed for theory crafters that can squeeze the tiniest last drop pf damage out of a a magic hat.
For us mere mortals or rather average, try hards that never really get too far in the vet trials department, this game hands our butts to us on a daily basis.
Why is a game such hard work.? A challenge is good but not when you dont understand how the whole min max theory crafting works.
I feel like the d

Devs are out of touch as to how the average player doesnt theiry craft or min max. We are all just left to follow cookie cutter builds and doing precisely what the t b eiry crafters tell us we must do to get that 100k dps.

So for some of us rookies the dream of endgame vet or hardmode trials are out of reach.

Kappachi

Because trials are the true endgame/hardcore content? If they were completable with just any build then it would be a cakewalk like the game leading up to them... There's always veteran HM Dungeons which are still difficult and require good builds if you wanna play something a little less difficult.

Braffin

Nothing wrong with the need to understand your build if you want to participate in endgame. That's a major part of every rpg.

Eso is doing a bad job in explaining it's core mechanics tho. Some sort of ingame glossary, where you find the necessary information to craft viable builds for various situations, would definitely be a helpful addition for anyone interested in challenging content.

Unfortunately zos is almost completely relying onto external sources regarding this topic, which is quite suboptimal and leads to a whole lot of players running builds they don't understand.

Katheriah

You don't really though...

I have never, ever used a build that I created myself in either a vet Trial or PvP. I let other people do the work, smack that stuff on my char and head off to the target dummy.

colossalvoids

Hard is pretty subjective, to me it was okayish learning curve for someone who never sticked with any MMOs and ran only single player games like TES ones that got me here. It's not much complex, but it's pretty vast as of now, wasn't really the case when I joined myself. And you surely don't need to be a theorycrafter to have basics understanding of how combat works and basic gearing/scaling, though it's pretty fun part of raiding. I've started my vets without much knowledge but with enough will and commitment to learn, when it was a time for HMs and achievements I was interested enough to become a frequent PTS enjoyer tinkering with stuff and trying to optimise the hell out of my setups which was 50% of the fun tbh. If it's not your thing there's also enough resources and helpful fellas to help you out if you're not closed to it.

Dack_Janiels

It's true that theory crafting and min-maxing can play a significant role in achieving high performance in vet trials. These activities help optimize builds and strategies to maximize damage output, survivability, and team synergy. However, being a theory crafter isn't the only way to excel in vet trials.

While theory crafting can provide an edge, teamwork, communication, and practice are equally crucial. It's possible to find success by focusing on improving your gameplay, understanding mechanics, and collaborating effectively within your team. Many players who aren't avid theory crafters still manage to succeed by learning from experienced teammates, following guides, and adapting strategies to their playstyle.

The challenge in games like these stems from striking a balance between accessibility and difficulty for various types of players. It's important for developers to consider a wide range of player preferences and skills when designing endgame content. Remember, the journey to mastering vet trials may take time, but with perseverance and teamwork, you can overcome challenges and enjoy the rewarding experiences they offer.

Ph1p

Recent wrote: »

I enjoy the group content and being part of a team but this game feels like it's mainly designed for theory crafters that can squeeze the tiniest last drop of damage out of a magic hat.

[...]

Devs are out of touch as to how the average player doesn't theory craft or min max. We are all just left to follow cookie cutter builds and doing precisely what the theory crafters tell us we must do to get that 100k dps.

I agree that ESO does a poor job of explaining some basics of its combat system, which is also unnecessarily complicated for various legacy reasons. Take the seemingly random critical chance and penetration numbers, for example.

However, you can skip any theory crafting and just use one of the numerous guides available. But then one cannot complain about following "cookie cutter builds"...

You also don't need to parse >100k DPS or min-max just to clear vet trials. That only becomes important if you go for hard modes, trifectas, and score runs. Look for guilds and groups that focus on introducing vet content and have lower requirements. As you gain experience with those, progressing towards hard modes will come naturally and with a more manageable learning curve than trying to leapfrog straight into endgame content as a rookie.

BasP

Recent wrote: »

For us mere mortals or rather average, try hards that never really get too far in the vet trials department, this game hands our butts to us on a daily basis.

Devs are out of touch as to how the average player doesnt theiry craft or min max.

So for some of us rookies the dream of endgame vet or hardmode trials are out of reach.

One could just make the argument that normal Trials are for "average" players and can be completed without a lot of min-maxing or theory crafting, while veteran Trials are for "end-gamers" and will require deeper knowledge of the game mechanics.

It would be nice if things were explained better in-game though, instead of having to rely on outside sources that can be outdated or sometimes give conflicting advice.

haelgaan

i'm confused by connecting theory crafting with being an end game player.

theory crafting is merely putting together different builds that suit whatever requirements you define for that build.

being an end game player means being able to squeeze the max productivity out of your build.

sure, being able to theory craft might help you be a better end game player, but there is no requirement to be able theory craft in order to be a highly effective player.

Necrotech_Master

yeah i dont think min-maxing and theory crafting are the same thing

i believe myself to be a theory crafter, but a lot of that is forming an idea of sets that might synergize, and then trying it out on some character to see if it works how you think it does

sometimes it works, and is effective, other times, not so much

i would actually think theory crafting is closer to experimental building than min-max building

we have hundreds of sets in this game, and theres quite a bit of combinations that can give you enough dmg to complete vet content (going for hard modes or trifectas is a different story though, but just clearing non-HM vet content is very doable with most builds)

disintegr8

Completing vet trials is really only a 'want', as opposed to a 'need', and if the 'want' is strong enough, you'll make the effort to get the most out of your build/s to accomplish them.

After 3 years away from the game I have a lot of new trials and dungeons I have never done on vet. Many of them I'll probably never do but with high ping and slow reflexes, I can accept that. I also couldn't stand to spend hours at a dummy, perfecting rotations to get 'good' DPS.

TaSheen

disintegr8 wrote: »

Completing vet trials is really only a 'want', as opposed to a 'need', and if the 'want' is strong enough, you'll make the effort to get the most out of your build/s to accomplish them.

After 3 years away from the game I have a lot of new trials and dungeons I have never done on vet. Many of them I'll probably never do but with high ping and slow reflexes, I can accept that. I also couldn't stand to spend hours at a dummy, perfecting rotations to get 'good' DPS.

Right there with you as for high ping and slow reflexes - but at least I got over wanting to mess with anything endgame after years in WoW and RIFT, where I ran "fam and friends" guilds and we raided 4 nights a week....

DUTCH_REAPER

Brother don’t feel bad. I have seen a player in gold BiS gear do the worst in a 12 man trial while the new guy in all purple gear blow him away. It doesn’t matter how good your gear/build is if you can’t do a rotation. There will always be BiS in every game pretty much. ESO is no different. A parse only shows you know your rotation and what gear you have slotted. That’s it. And I do believe you should know your rotation. Not the best online that someone posted but the one you can do consistently. Maybe that build requires you to wear oakensoul? Maybe not? Each player is different. I know a player whose hands hurt and oakensoul alleviates that stress and pain with a simple build that they practiced on and they wreck bosses. Mechanics are a whole different ball of wax. You keep having fun man. And I promise when you want to do trials there are some really great people out there in trial guilds who will help you complete Vet if that’s really what you want to do and they can help you understand your class, build and how to “hit it”.

Happy gaming

jerj6925

Recent wrote: »

I enjoy the group content and being part of a team but this game feels like it's mainly designed for theory crafters that can squeeze the tiniest last drop pf damage out of a a magic hat.
For us mere mortals or rather average, try hards that never really get too far in the vet trials department, this game hands our butts to us on a daily basis.
Why is a game such hard work.? A challenge is good but not when you dont understand how the whole min max theory crafting works.
I feel like the d

Devs are out of touch as to how the average player doesnt theiry craft or min max. We are all just left to follow cookie cutter builds and doing precisely what the t b eiry crafters tell us we must do to get that 100k dps.

So for some of us rookies the dream of endgame vet or hardmode trials are out of reach.

the trouble is the game went from you create the build you like and play the game the way you enjoy and you can be viable in every part of the game to... you will play their way to be viable and thats that. its much easier on the developers and not so much about your enjoyment.

kargen27

If your group does an average of 30k on dummies you can do near all the content in the game. Even vet hard mode. You will need to pay attention to all the mechanics. The higher numbers are desired by groups wanting to burn past mechanics instead of dealing with them.
You will need higher DPS for trifectas and/or getting on leader boards but you don't need anywhere near 100K DPS to complete any content.
20K will get you through most content if the group knows the mechanics and responds correctly to those mechanics.

Unfortunately the hard part often can be finding a group willing to work towards finishing trials without requiring super builds.

Soarora

Your only two options are to use someone else’s build or theorycraft your own, I’m not sure what other option there could be. Regardless, I get it. I hate math, I’m not good at math, I don’t do math. I don’t know the intricacies on why use divines over infused or when to use charged instead of precise. PTS is great for just throwing things together and seeing if they work if you have access to it. That’s exactly what I did. Use the math other people figured out (such as all divines for a DPS, with thief mundus) and messed with CP, skills, weapon traits, armor sets, enchants, until I found things that work. I kept doing that and I have gone from about 50-60k on a Xynode build to 75, 80, 90, 100k on my own build over the updates. I’m sure I could get 110k if I reaallyy tried. If you keep trying, I’m sure you can theorycraft. You can also start asking people WHY certain things are good instead of what is good. I believe in you.

Unfortunately though, you’re probably going to come to similar conclusions as the “cookie cutter builds”. The META is just that, the best way to get things done and DSR and RG are balanced around what the META at the time was. But at least you can take pride in that you got there yourself… and learn about your build/class along the way. Knowing the “why”s are huge to knowing how to adapt to content. I know what my flex spots are and vaguely when to use more/less AoE and such. Never understood that on a “cookie cutter” build.

Carcamongus

You don't have to be a theorycrafter to be good enough for ver trials. You need to have the sets the reference theorycrafters have said are meta (cookie-cutter, I know) and be able to deal/survive/heal a ridiculous amount of damage.

rpa

If it is same as in my previous game where I did all raids and all but one hard mode as not at all elite player, you just use the build your trial group organizers tell you to use. And you'll do just fine and have fun.

spartaxoxo

You don't. Just copy someone else. I do agree with you that the gear could be better explained in game and more set combos should be viable.

But, in the meantime, those cookie cutter builds (as you call it), simplify the process of gearing up a great deal. That's the reason so many people use them. They don't want to theorycraft but they do want good damage.

Recent

BasP wrote: »

Recent wrote: »

For us mere mortals or rather average, try hards that never really get too far in the vet trials department, this game hands our butts to us on a daily basis.

Devs are out of touch as to how the average player doesnt theiry craft or min max.

So for some of us rookies the dream of endgame vet or hardmode trials are out of reach.

One could just make the argument that normal Trials are for "average" players and can be completed without a lot of min-maxing or theory crafting, while veteran Trials are for "end-gamers" and will require deeper knowledge of the game mechanics.

It would be nice if things were explained better in-game though, instead of having to rely on outside sources that can be outdated or sometimes give conflicting advice.

Yes thank you it would be nice to get the knowledge from the game and not have to rely on streamers etc to learn how things work

hrothbern

Recent wrote: »

I enjoy the group content and being part of a team but this game feels like it's mainly designed for theory crafters that can squeeze the tiniest last drop pf damage out of a a magic hat.
For us mere mortals or rather average, try hards that never really get too far in the vet trials department, this game hands our butts to us on a daily basis.
Why is a game such hard work.? A challenge is good but not when you dont understand how the whole min max theory crafting works.
I feel like the d

Devs are out of touch as to how the average player doesnt theiry craft or min max. We are all just left to follow cookie cutter builds and doing precisely what the t b eiry crafters tell us we must do to get that 100k dps.

So for some of us rookies the dream of endgame vet or hardmode trials are out of reach.

As long as there is someone in your trial guild who does understand min-max theo-crafting good enough...
what is the problem ?

Being able to do all kinds of understanding yourself is wasting your time unless just that understanding is your main focus in this game.
and even then... there are not enough hours in a day to test and learn everything on your own

Team work and team trust

FeedbackOnly

Why do you feel that way?

hrothbern

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Why do you feel that way?

?

Rowjoh

You dont have to understand the mechanics of a Ferrari to be able to drive one successfully .

You do have to understand the mechanics of HM Vet trials to be able to do them successfully.

hrothbern

Rowjoh wrote: »

You dont have to understand the mechanics of a Ferrari to be able to drive one.

You do have to understand the mechanics of HM Vet trials to be able to do them.

exactly

ForzaRammer

You don’t need min max to get 100k dps, and no vet non hm requires 100k dps to just clear (yet), even 90k req is plenty.

And if you really dislike parse, just be a support main.

Galiferno

kargen27 wrote: »

If your group does an average of 30k on dummies you can do near all the content in the game. Even vet hard mode. You will need to pay attention to all the mechanics. The higher numbers are desired by groups wanting to burn past mechanics instead of dealing with them.
You will need higher DPS for trifectas and/or getting on leader boards but you don't need anywhere near 100K DPS to complete any content.
20K will get you through most content if the group knows the mechanics and responds correctly to those mechanics.

Unfortunately the hard part often can be finding a group willing to work towards finishing trials without requiring super builds.

This mentality is exactly why tanks and good supports are rare. The better of a tank you become, you less you want to run with people who have no desire to improve or contribute equally to the group, and you get the opportunity to run with actually good players and never look back.

kargen27

Galiferno wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

If your group does an average of 30k on dummies you can do near all the content in the game. Even vet hard mode. You will need to pay attention to all the mechanics. The higher numbers are desired by groups wanting to burn past mechanics instead of dealing with them.
You will need higher DPS for trifectas and/or getting on leader boards but you don't need anywhere near 100K DPS to complete any content.
20K will get you through most content if the group knows the mechanics and responds correctly to those mechanics.

Unfortunately the hard part often can be finding a group willing to work towards finishing trials without requiring super builds.

This mentality is exactly why tanks and good supports are rare. The better of a tank you become, you less you want to run with people who have no desire to improve or contribute equally to the group, and you get the opportunity to run with actually good players and never look back.

Where did I say there was no desire to improve or contribute to the group? I correctly pointed out if you understand the mechanics a group average of 30K among the DPS will let you finish vet hard mode content. Higher DPS lets a group skip mechanics. Where players run into problems is when they see a video of a group that can skip mechanics then mistakenly think that is the way to run the trial. They see a guide that says "just burn through this phase" and don't know what to do when their group can't just burn through that phase.
If they know the mechanics and react appropriately to those mechanics nobody in the group needs over 30K DPS. They simply don't. The group doesn't even need top tier tanks and healers to finish hard mode. Sure it makes the run smoother and quicker but a super group isn't required to finish hard mode trials. Understand the mechanics and average players can and do finish hard mode content.
And some of us don't consider taking the time to run with players not pulling 80K damage as looking back. We see it as an opportunity to help others finish hard content. Always running with a group that just burns through to the end with no problems gets boring and old.

SugaComa

You don't they are two completely different things .

Any one can do vet trials with decent "off the rack" set up, theory crafting is having an idea that may give you something cool and unique either for fun or to achieve a particular task , like soloing dungeons

Jaimeh

Recent wrote: »

I enjoy the group content and being part of a team but this game feels like it's mainly designed for theory crafters that can squeeze the tiniest last drop pf damage out of a a magic hat.
For us mere mortals or rather average, try hards that never really get too far in the vet trials department, this game hands our butts to us on a daily basis.
Why is a game such hard work.? A challenge is good but not when you dont understand how the whole min max theory crafting works.

I don't think that theory-crafting per se is what might keep someone out of vet or hardmode trials. First of all, for simple vet mode you can easily clear many trials with PUGs wearing very basic builds and having neither optimization, communications, or high damage. I've been to countless such PUGs formed in Craglorn that were successful, although most players were low CP and had very simple builds or rotations. There was no min-maxing involved whatsoever. The only things you need are knowing your role and knowing mechanics, because even if you have the most meta, min-maxed build, but you don't know what you're doing and what's happening, the build will not do you any good. In fact it's quite the opposite: for new players copying a meta build might be detrimental because they probably won't yet understand how it works, proc conditions, the fights it's best used in, and so on, and would fare better in a less complicated build. The build only matters when you're already experienced and you can actually squeeze the extra dps it can give you. But unless you're score pushing you don't need that anyway. It's very misguided to think that it's theory-crafting that could keep someone back, and it's also counterproductive because such thinking keeps you from actually participating, which is exactly what can help you improve: practice and more practice. Only then do you learn your role and the mechanics, and your numbers start to improve. And when you have reasonable knowledge of these you can clear every vet trial, and even some hard modes, depending on the group. Finally a word of advice: never copy a build and a rotation you don't fully understand and have a lot of trouble doing. For example, if it's a dynamic rotation but you can't swap so often, then find a static version, or create your own. If the spammable has a cast time but you can't figure out the timing, then don't use that spammable and use an instant cast one, even if it might be lower damage, because you'll get more out of it than messing up the casts. Also, the more experience you have with a fight the more you'll know what works better within your skill set, so for instance if you die a lot, slot a shield until you get a better grip, even if the build doesn't include a shield. Wen your skill improves then you can remove the shield and add something else. All that comes with experience, and you get the experience by trying things out on a given fight. Anyway, I hope that helps, don't worry so much about copying a build and then trying to hit the same numbers as the person who made it, but rather create a build that works for you and become better at it during content while learning mechanics and that's pretty much your golden ticket to any vet trial.

ForzaRammer

kargen27 wrote: »

Galiferno wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

If your group does an average of 30k on dummies you can do near all the content in the game. Even vet hard mode. You will need to pay attention to all the mechanics. The higher numbers are desired by groups wanting to burn past mechanics instead of dealing with them.
You will need higher DPS for trifectas and/or getting on leader boards but you don't need anywhere near 100K DPS to complete any content.
20K will get you through most content if the group knows the mechanics and responds correctly to those mechanics.

Unfortunately the hard part often can be finding a group willing to work towards finishing trials without requiring super builds.

This mentality is exactly why tanks and good supports are rare. The better of a tank you become, you less you want to run with people who have no desire to improve or contribute equally to the group, and you get the opportunity to run with actually good players and never look back.

Where did I say there was no desire to improve or contribute to the group? I correctly pointed out if you understand the mechanics a group average of 30K among the DPS will let you finish vet hard mode content. Higher DPS lets a group skip mechanics. Where players run into problems is when they see a video of a group that can skip mechanics then mistakenly think that is the way to run the trial. They see a guide that says "just burn through this phase" and don't know what to do when their group can't just burn through that phase.
If they know the mechanics and react appropriately to those mechanics nobody in the group needs over 30K DPS. They simply don't. The group doesn't even need top tier tanks and healers to finish hard mode. Sure it makes the run smoother and quicker but a super group isn't required to finish hard mode trials. Understand the mechanics and average players can and do finish hard mode content.
And some of us don't consider taking the time to run with players not pulling 80K damage as looking back. We see it as an opportunity to help others finish hard content. Always running with a group that just burns through to the end with no problems gets boring and old.

No you don’t, average 30k dps in actual content can’t clear HM. It’s not enough for vss hm portals, which is 2019 content. There is a timer my man. That’s even if your group manages to get there, getting extra set of atros on fire and ice dragon is guaranteed with a group this bad.

Here is the math, the portal servant has over 10mil hp, you send 3 people to portal you have 90 seconds. 30k*3*90 is only 8.1mil, quit spreading propaganda that’s easily disproved.