Suggestion for light attacks

Vex.1337

I have been playing this game for a while now and I don't enjoy the light attack weaving aspect of the combat mechanics.
It requires you to do 2 actions per second instead of one and if you don't the DPS seems to drop between 20 to 40% depending on what gear sets you are using.
I am aware there are alternatives to light attack weaving but the highest DPS in the game can be reached only if you master this combat mechanic.

It is not a healthy mechanic for the player either as it can easily create carpal tunnel syndrome in the long term.

My suggestion would be to put the light attack on a similar cooldown as a regular ability with no less than 1 second, this way you would have to pick to either light attack in order to proc a buff/debuff or use a regular ability.

Looking at eso logs at what a very experienced player does in this game it seems that in a fight that last 7 mins they do around 200 light attacks and about 100 weapon swaps during their regular rotations. All buttons should be fun to press and I don't find light attacking or weapon swapping a fun mechanic in a videogame. The animations look off too when you do multiple actions per seconds with your character and it doesn't seem that the original game was designed with this mechanic in mind either.

The log I linked below is also for arcanist which do have a long channel ability that prevents them from light attacking.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/HdLRJ14CWnjrADaM#fight=17&type=casts&source=2

For DK the number of light attacks reach 350 in a 7 mins fight https://www.esologs.com/reports/xXWA1akQVnR6hBmM#fight=50&type=casts&source=6

This is not what the average player DPS looks like but is something that most players should strive to get to. However, when a new player come into the game and discovers the number of actions per minute they are required to do in order to be optimal they either never go into endgame content or play something else.

I am not an endgame player but I might want to get into raids at some point, this is just a suggestion for the ESO combat dev team.

Thanks!

Treeshka

There is nothing to change about light attacks and weaving at all. This game is nearing its tenth year and changing light attack weaving mechanic to completely something else will not work at this point. Instead developers brought up mythic items that fits different play styles.

For example Oakensoul Ring fits for heavy attack builds that does not require a lot of action per minute. Velothi Ur-Mage Amulet also reduces your light attack damage to almost zero while giving you damage done and penetration.

I agree with latter part though. When a new player starts and wants to advance through in the game they might end up thinking they have to light attack weave or has to have more than hundred action per minute but they do not need this. Nowadays if anyone wants to ditch light attack weaving fully, they can just use Velothi Ur-Mage Amulet mythic and still do enough damage.

In the end game should reward high action per minute in some cases. On the other hand you can still be top parse in an actual raid with Arcanist with lower than sixty action per minute.

Tigeracer

I hate the way light attack weaving looks, especially coming from playing mostly fromsoft games where weapon animations are beautiful in comparison. However, I do believe light attack weaving shouldn't be changed, since it takes great skill to pull of correctly and therefore should be rewarded for being able to do so.
On a side note, it's almost impossible to do correctly with Aussie lag. Bar swap cancelling is impossible and basic light attack weaving works whenever it wants to.

Soarora

I like weaving. I do agree it’s probably not healthy though. Best ways to avoid weaving are: arcanist, heavy attack build, healing, tanking. Healers weave but it’s more optional based on sweatiness level. Arcanists and HA builds weave if sweaty too but the long channels reduce the amount of potential LAs. Anyways, zos has been balancing to make the gap between weaving and not weaving smaller, along with support for bad weaving.

Braffin

How about "just no"?

LA weaving is a core mechanic of this game since the beginning. Zos is talking about "combat mastery" regarding this topic. On top of that it's not necessary to LA weave at all to clear every content in this game (not every achievement tho).

I see really no need to change a completely optional mechanic, which is enjoyed by a lot of players, especially when alternatives (arcanist, HA builds) are available.

merpins

So your suggestion is to remove LA weaving? That's how it was supposed to work. LA or an ability on the GCD. That's legit the original design of the game, but players liked the skill of LA weaving, so Zos decided to make it a mechanic. Your suggestion is just to remove LA weaving and replace it with nothing, which isn't constructive. If the suggestion was "remove light attack weaving and buff all player damage in the game by 20-40%" at least that would be somewhat of a equivalent, but it would remove an interesting mechanic from the game.

If I were to suggest a LA weave kind of replacement, it would be whenever you LA weave, you get a % buff to all damage for a number of seconds, and LA damage is reduced during that timeframe. Very similar to the new mythic, but it would need to be around 30% and not 15%, which would also kill that mythic. But I personally wouldn't want a change.

BasP

I'd definitely dislike it if LA weaving was removed from the game. During the PTS for U35 I bought Guild Wars 2 and tried it for a while, because the combat was supposedly a bit similar to that of ESO, but I found it more boring due to the lack of LA weaving.

As others have said, alternatives that don't require (perfect) LA weaving already exist, such as HA builds, builds with the Velothi-Ur Mage Amulet, Arcanists and so forth.

Soarora

BasP wrote: »

I'd definitely dislike it if LA weaving was removed from the game. During the PTS for U35 I bought Guild Wars 2 and tried it for a while, because the combat was supposedly a bit similar to that of ESO, but I found it more boring due to the lack of LA weaving.

As others have said, alternatives that don't require (perfect) LA weaving already exist, such as HA builds, builds with the Velothi-Ur Mage Amulet, Arcanists and so forth.

Haha I tried GW2 as well and found myself trying to weave. Doesn't work over there. Have to consciously remember not to weave...

Vex.1337

Thanks for your input. From what I can see most players that visit the forums enjoy LA weaving with hundreds of actions per minute.

Do we have an official stance from ESO combat dev team about this matter?

The only reason I am even aware of this mechanic is because I played MMOs for a long period of time, did some research and I have a lot of experience, your average new player will not even know they can do 20-30% more DPS by cancelling animations.

My suggestion wasn't to remove the light attacks from the game but make it so that is not possible in the same second to light attack together with other ability forcing you to do 2 actions per second if you want to be optimal. Obviously by removing 20 to 30% of your DPS something else would need to be buffed.

If you look at the data provided by eso logs you will notice that at the moment the number of LA actions is almost 3 times as large as the next spammable Cephaliarch's Flail even for arcanists with the Velothi-Ur Mage Amulet.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/HdLRJ14CWnjrADaM#fight=17&type=casts&source=2

In my opinion this kind of requirement to be optimal is too excessive and should be toned down.

colossalvoids

Being optimal always means extra effort, unsure why eso should be any different when there's enough options for going off meta for all the possible clears and even trifectas which are endgame content and still can be cleared/achieved with suboptimal/off-meta builds. One click per second doesn't sound any excessive, especially for an action oriented game to me personally.

The devs are fine with la weaving being there (it's called a mastery by them), it was nerfed and buffed throughout the years especially since Summerset when it was more or less normalised and started to show up again in dev talks, specific sets being made for it etc. Their only effort now is to make other playstyles as viable but keeping it bit at bay still as less effort should ideally mean less gain, not that it's the case currently with some options.

They can change their minds any day anyway as we saw though the years as they're still can't commit for one single audience and trying to make the game "for everyone" basically failing everyone with it as no one gets enough attention while thinking the game caters to everyone else.

BXR_Lonestar

At this point, if you don't like the light attack weaving and light attack system (which I really don't either), then your next best option is to use the Velothi Ur Amulet, build in a little bit of extra sustain, and call it a day.

Believe me, the thing I hate about ESO the most is the combat system - which is why I mainly play support. But mythics like the Oakensoul and the Velothi Ur amulet have changed things for me somewhat and I find myself playing my DPS characters some more. Maybe they'll start to make more mythics/sets geared towards this playstyle in the future.

Vex.1337

What is the mathematical difference between a player doing LA weaving and another one just using their abilities on cooldown and light attacking when there's nothing else to spam with their regular abilities?

I did a bit more testing and research on this topic and it seems that the cooldown for abilities or animations is 0.9 seconds not 1 second which means that every 10 abilities you can squeeze another LA+ability in there. Might be wrong here and it could depend on each skill animation time. The ingame tooltips mention cast times like instant, 0.3s or 0.8s, not sure yet how it works and if it is only the instant abilities that can be weaved with a light attack.

It is also possible to light attack during the dodge and bar swapping animations which would explain why top parsers can reach hundreds of actions in a single minute.

I don't enjoy or find interesting this kind of combat playstyle, I understand having to press buttons faster in a certain order to do more damage but I find it that it is too extreme in this game.

Pressing my left click with every single other ability every 0.9 seconds would probably lead to carpal tunnel in the long term, and I would like to be able to still be able to play videogames when I get older.

Soarora

Vex.1337 wrote: »

What is the mathematical difference between a player doing LA weaving and another one just using their abilities on cooldown and light attacking when there's nothing else to spam with their regular abilities?

I did a bit more testing and research on this topic and it seems that the cooldown for abilities or animations is 0.9 seconds not 1 second which means that every 10 abilities you can squeeze another LA+ability in there. Might be wrong here and it could depend on each skill animation time. The ingame tooltips mention cast times like instant, 0.3s or 0.8s, not sure yet how it works and if it is only the instant abilities that can be weaved with a light attack.

It is also possible to light attack during the dodge and bar swapping animations which would explain why top parsers can reach hundreds of actions in a single minute.

I don't enjoy or find interesting this kind of combat playstyle, I understand having to press buttons faster in a certain order to do more damage but I find it that it is too extreme in this game.

Pressing my left click with every single other ability every 0.9 seconds would probably lead to carpal tunnel in the long term, and I would like to be able to still be able to play videogames when I get older.

You’re just describing weaving. Every ability triggers a global cooldown. Light attacks are not affected by the global cooldown and so you can fit one light attack in before the cooldown ends and you can use another skill. You can weave with channeled abilities but it’s done by LAing before the channel. You can’t LA while channeling. Basically, [LA, skill], [LA, skill], [LA, skill]. It’s also called animation cancelling because your skill cancels your LA animation.

Braffin

Vex.1337 wrote: »

I don't enjoy or find interesting this kind of combat playstyle, I understand having to press buttons faster in a certain order to do more damage but I find it that it is too extreme in this game.

Fine, you don't enjoy LA weaving. That's absolutely legitimate.

But why do you think you're forced to participate in this part of "combat mastery"? Every activity is completeable without LA weaving, so you loose nothing by playing the way you personally prefer.

There is no reason I'm aware of to kill off the game for all players which enjoy LA weaving, except maybe the wish to be a "top player" without investing the necessary training. But that would be nothing else than entitlement.

chessalavakia_ESO

Braffin wrote: »

Vex.1337 wrote: »

I don't enjoy or find interesting this kind of combat playstyle, I understand having to press buttons faster in a certain order to do more damage but I find it that it is too extreme in this game.

Fine, you don't enjoy LA weaving. That's absolutely legitimate.

But why do you think you're forced to participate in this part of "combat mastery"? Every activity is completeable without LA weaving, so you loose nothing by playing the way you personally prefer.

There is no reason I'm aware of to kill off the game for all players which enjoy LA weaving, except maybe the wish to be a "top player" without investing the necessary training. But that would be nothing else than entitlement.

Animation cancellation in games has a tendency to lead to balance issues. Either the individuals using them will have more power than intended or those not using them will have less power than intended which can easily create frustrating moments.

Attempts to try to balance it out somewhat at an overall level can frequently lead to side effects. For example, Light attacks in ESO are a bit limited due to attempts to balance weaving.

If people actually enjoy weaving as a mechanic and not just as an advantage they hold over other people , you could have it be a feature of certain sets so that it could be more carefully balanced with less outside side effects.

Vex.1337

Braffin wrote: »

Vex.1337 wrote: »

I don't enjoy or find interesting this kind of combat playstyle, I understand having to press buttons faster in a certain order to do more damage but I find it that it is too extreme in this game.

Fine, you don't enjoy LA weaving. That's absolutely legitimate.

But why do you think you're forced to participate in this part of "combat mastery"? Every activity is completeable without LA weaving, so you loose nothing by playing the way you personally prefer.

There is no reason I'm aware of to kill off the game for all players which enjoy LA weaving, except maybe the wish to be a "top player" without investing the necessary training. But that would be nothing else than entitlement.

Because I played other MMOs in the last 10 years, I know how people are and I am certain that in order to get into a guild which does endgame content you are required to play optimally which in this game is LA weaving. Most likely they also ask for parses or logs in their guild applications.

Prove me wrong please, I like data, can you show me a log from patch 38 where a group of 12 players killed Ansul the Tormentor on veteran hard mode(I assume this is the currently the hardest PvE content in this game) without LA weaving?

https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/17#boss=57

I am not looking to kill off the game for other players, it was only meant as a suggestion to the game developers to look at the actions per minute shown in the top end parses which again in my opinion are extreme for an MMORPG.

I enjoy the story of ESO and I will continue to play the game as a single player for a little longer without getting involved into endgame content.

Soarora

Vex.1337 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Vex.1337 wrote: »

I don't enjoy or find interesting this kind of combat playstyle, I understand having to press buttons faster in a certain order to do more damage but I find it that it is too extreme in this game.

Fine, you don't enjoy LA weaving. That's absolutely legitimate.

But why do you think you're forced to participate in this part of "combat mastery"? Every activity is completeable without LA weaving, so you loose nothing by playing the way you personally prefer.

There is no reason I'm aware of to kill off the game for all players which enjoy LA weaving, except maybe the wish to be a "top player" without investing the necessary training. But that would be nothing else than entitlement.

Because I played other MMOs in the last 10 years, I know how people are and I am certain that in order to get into a guild which does endgame content you are required to play optimally which in this game is LA weaving. Most likely they also ask for parses or logs in their guild applications.

Prove me wrong please, I like data, can you show me a log from patch 38 where a group of 12 players killed Ansul the Tormentor on veteran hard mode(I assume this is the currently the hardest PvE content in this game) without LA weaving?

https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/17#boss=57

I am not looking to kill off the game for other players, it was only meant as a suggestion to the game developers to look at the actions per minute shown in the top end parses which again in my opinion are extreme for an MMORPG.

I enjoy the story of ESO and I will continue to play the game as a single player for a little longer without getting involved into endgame content.

You do send a parse so people know how much damage you do… because it’s hard on supports if damage is low and there are DPS checks that’ll kill everyone if not cleared. All that matters is the DPS.
That said, you’re probably not gonna find a log of 12 people not weaving, let alone a HM trial… because most people who are at that level of content weave. Not necessarily because it’s impossible to do.

Braffin

Vex.1337 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Vex.1337 wrote: »

I don't enjoy or find interesting this kind of combat playstyle, I understand having to press buttons faster in a certain order to do more damage but I find it that it is too extreme in this game.

Fine, you don't enjoy LA weaving. That's absolutely legitimate.

But why do you think you're forced to participate in this part of "combat mastery"? Every activity is completeable without LA weaving, so you loose nothing by playing the way you personally prefer.

There is no reason I'm aware of to kill off the game for all players which enjoy LA weaving, except maybe the wish to be a "top player" without investing the necessary training. But that would be nothing else than entitlement.

Because I played other MMOs in the last 10 years, I know how people are and I am certain that in order to get into a guild which does endgame content you are required to play optimally which in this game is LA weaving. Most likely they also ask for parses or logs in their guild applications.

Prove me wrong please, I like data, can you show me a log from patch 38 where a group of 12 players killed Ansul the Tormentor on veteran hard mode(I assume this is the currently the hardest PvE content in this game) without LA weaving?

https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/17#boss=57

I am not looking to kill off the game for other players, it was only meant as a suggestion to the game developers to look at the actions per minute shown in the top end parses which again in my opinion are extreme for an MMORPG.

I enjoy the story of ESO and I will continue to play the game as a single player for a little longer without getting involved into endgame content.

Yes, people are tending to be this way. I don't necessarily like that, but can't change that either.

Nonetheless there is no reason for changing how this game works since 10 years just to combat human error. If someone is willing to gatekeep, they will do so. If you extinct LA weaving (that's the result of your suggestion) there will be other parameters to keep people out of content.

I play MMOs (besides other genres) for many years, and even in the old-styled ones without modern combat systems you are gatekept by people which are willing to do so.

The easy solution is to form a group of likeminded players and do content in your own style. But killing off the joy of others isn't a viable solution.

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Vex.1337 wrote: »

I don't enjoy or find interesting this kind of combat playstyle, I understand having to press buttons faster in a certain order to do more damage but I find it that it is too extreme in this game.

Fine, you don't enjoy LA weaving. That's absolutely legitimate.

But why do you think you're forced to participate in this part of "combat mastery"? Every activity is completeable without LA weaving, so you loose nothing by playing the way you personally prefer.

There is no reason I'm aware of to kill off the game for all players which enjoy LA weaving, except maybe the wish to be a "top player" without investing the necessary training. But that would be nothing else than entitlement.

Animation cancellation in games has a tendency to lead to balance issues. Either the individuals using them will have more power than intended or those not using them will have less power than intended which can easily create frustrating moments.

Attempts to try to balance it out somewhat at an overall level can frequently lead to side effects. For example, Light attacks in ESO are a bit limited due to attempts to balance weaving.

If people actually enjoy weaving as a mechanic and not just as an advantage they hold over other people , you could have it be a feature of certain sets so that it could be more carefully balanced with less outside side effects.

Work on your frustration tolerance then. And maybe measure yourself against actual content instead of other players. Otherwise you will always be frustrated in multiplayer games. If you want to be to one and only hero all over the gaming world, play a single player game.

chessalavakia_ESO

Vex.1337 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Vex.1337 wrote: »

I don't enjoy or find interesting this kind of combat playstyle, I understand having to press buttons faster in a certain order to do more damage but I find it that it is too extreme in this game.

Fine, you don't enjoy LA weaving. That's absolutely legitimate.

But why do you think you're forced to participate in this part of "combat mastery"? Every activity is completeable without LA weaving, so you loose nothing by playing the way you personally prefer.

There is no reason I'm aware of to kill off the game for all players which enjoy LA weaving, except maybe the wish to be a "top player" without investing the necessary training. But that would be nothing else than entitlement.

Because I played other MMOs in the last 10 years, I know how people are and I am certain that in order to get into a guild which does endgame content you are required to play optimally which in this game is LA weaving. Most likely they also ask for parses or logs in their guild applications.

Prove me wrong please, I like data, can you show me a log from patch 38 where a group of 12 players killed Ansul the Tormentor on veteran hard mode(I assume this is the currently the hardest PvE content in this game) without LA weaving?

https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/17#boss=57

I am not looking to kill off the game for other players, it was only meant as a suggestion to the game developers to look at the actions per minute shown in the top end parses which again in my opinion are extreme for an MMORPG.

I enjoy the story of ESO and I will continue to play the game as a single player for a little longer without getting involved into endgame content.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/HdLRJ14CWnjrADaM#fight=17&type=damage-done

Here's a group where the majority of the group is not light attack weaving much.

Finding a group where everyone doesn't weave may not be possible as only 289 characters are logged completing it and some of the builds are kinda stuck leaning on light attack weaving to be effective.

If you look at the logs for Arcanists specifically you'll notice they do not appear to be light attack weaving much.


Edit: This appears to be inaccurate as I was reading the logs wrong.

Vex.1337

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Vex.1337 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Vex.1337 wrote: »

I don't enjoy or find interesting this kind of combat playstyle, I understand having to press buttons faster in a certain order to do more damage but I find it that it is too extreme in this game.

Fine, you don't enjoy LA weaving. That's absolutely legitimate.

But why do you think you're forced to participate in this part of "combat mastery"? Every activity is completeable without LA weaving, so you loose nothing by playing the way you personally prefer.

There is no reason I'm aware of to kill off the game for all players which enjoy LA weaving, except maybe the wish to be a "top player" without investing the necessary training. But that would be nothing else than entitlement.

Because I played other MMOs in the last 10 years, I know how people are and I am certain that in order to get into a guild which does endgame content you are required to play optimally which in this game is LA weaving. Most likely they also ask for parses or logs in their guild applications.

Prove me wrong please, I like data, can you show me a log from patch 38 where a group of 12 players killed Ansul the Tormentor on veteran hard mode(I assume this is the currently the hardest PvE content in this game) without LA weaving?

https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/17#boss=57

I am not looking to kill off the game for other players, it was only meant as a suggestion to the game developers to look at the actions per minute shown in the top end parses which again in my opinion are extreme for an MMORPG.

I enjoy the story of ESO and I will continue to play the game as a single player for a little longer without getting involved into endgame content.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/HdLRJ14CWnjrADaM#fight=17&type=damage-done

Here's a group where the majority of the group is not light attack weaving much.

Finding a group where everyone doesn't weave may not be possible as only 289 characters are logged completing it and some of the builds are kinda stuck leaning on light attack weaving to be effective.

If you look at the logs for Arcanists specifically you'll notice they do not appear to be light attack weaving much.

Did you link the correct one?

You need to look at the casts to see the light attacks or weapon swaps.
https://www.esologs.com/reports/HdLRJ14CWnjrADaM#fight=17&type=casts&by=ability

chessalavakia_ESO

Vex.1337 wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Vex.1337 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Vex.1337 wrote: »

I don't enjoy or find interesting this kind of combat playstyle, I understand having to press buttons faster in a certain order to do more damage but I find it that it is too extreme in this game.

Fine, you don't enjoy LA weaving. That's absolutely legitimate.

But why do you think you're forced to participate in this part of "combat mastery"? Every activity is completeable without LA weaving, so you loose nothing by playing the way you personally prefer.

There is no reason I'm aware of to kill off the game for all players which enjoy LA weaving, except maybe the wish to be a "top player" without investing the necessary training. But that would be nothing else than entitlement.

Because I played other MMOs in the last 10 years, I know how people are and I am certain that in order to get into a guild which does endgame content you are required to play optimally which in this game is LA weaving. Most likely they also ask for parses or logs in their guild applications.

Prove me wrong please, I like data, can you show me a log from patch 38 where a group of 12 players killed Ansul the Tormentor on veteran hard mode(I assume this is the currently the hardest PvE content in this game) without LA weaving?

https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/17#boss=57

I am not looking to kill off the game for other players, it was only meant as a suggestion to the game developers to look at the actions per minute shown in the top end parses which again in my opinion are extreme for an MMORPG.

I enjoy the story of ESO and I will continue to play the game as a single player for a little longer without getting involved into endgame content.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/HdLRJ14CWnjrADaM#fight=17&type=damage-done

Here's a group where the majority of the group is not light attack weaving much.

Finding a group where everyone doesn't weave may not be possible as only 289 characters are logged completing it and some of the builds are kinda stuck leaning on light attack weaving to be effective.

If you look at the logs for Arcanists specifically you'll notice they do not appear to be light attack weaving much.

Did you link the correct one?

You need to look at the casts to see the light attacks or weapon swaps.
https://www.esologs.com/reports/HdLRJ14CWnjrADaM#fight=17&type=casts&by=ability

Sorry, It looks like I read the log wrong, I was looking at the damage from lights rather than the actions. The damage displayed on many of them was below 100k so I assumed they weren't using it much incorrectly as I saw others had millions in damage displayed by light attacks which is more what I would expect from weaving over a fight of that duration.

Necrotech_Master

the game is a maximum of 120 actions per minute if you had perfect weaving, not sure where your getting "hundreds"

theres also alternatives to reduce the number of actions and still get decent dmg, oakensoul HA build is still feasible and besides holding down the left click for the HA (which is 2.1 sec cast time), you only have to hit a skill every 3rd GCD (outside of the HA, that is only 20 actions per minute)

the other option, as was suggested is the velothi mythic, which debuffs your light and heavy attacks and buffs your other skills by an equivalent amount (most parses the light attack dmg is around 14-16% of the parse, and velothi mythic is 15% flat dmg increase)

for non-arcanist your going to be down to basically 60 actions per minute (maybe slightly more to throw in a few light attack to keep ult generating), for an arcanist which has a 4.5 sec beam of fatecarver, thats 2 skills every 6 seconds, or about the same as a heavy attack build of around 20 actions per minute (also maybe a little higher if you still throw in light attacks now and then for ult gen)

i know i still typically weave on my arcanist velothi build, like when im generating crux even though i dont have to (i do kind of find it hilarious that light attacks hit for like 40 dmg with that mythic on lol)

Vex.1337

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the game is a maximum of 120 actions per minute if you had perfect weaving, not sure where your getting "hundreds"

theres also alternatives to reduce the number of actions and still get decent dmg, oakensoul HA build is still feasible and besides holding down the left click for the HA (which is 2.1 sec cast time), you only have to hit a skill every 3rd GCD (outside of the HA, that is only 20 actions per minute)

the other option, as was suggested is the velothi mythic, which debuffs your light and heavy attacks and buffs your other skills by an equivalent amount (most parses the light attack dmg is around 14-16% of the parse, and velothi mythic is 15% flat dmg increase)

for non-arcanist your going to be down to basically 60 actions per minute (maybe slightly more to throw in a few light attack to keep ult generating), for an arcanist which has a 4.5 sec beam of fatecarver, thats 2 skills every 6 seconds, or about the same as a heavy attack build of around 20 actions per minute (also maybe a little higher if you still throw in light attacks now and then for ult gen)

i know i still typically weave on my arcanist velothi build, like when im generating crux even though i dont have to (i do kind of find it hilarious that light attacks hit for like 40 dmg with that mythic on lol)

It does makes sense for the cap to be 120 casts per minute since you are required to do two actions in a second to perfect weave, you can find this information under CPM here https://www.esologs.com/reports/YGJ1TPDA4xvyHbak#fight=35&type=casts&source=5 where a DK reached 114.4 casts per minute.

Still I find it excessive and it appears that other players agree with me, especially console players, I assume it is more difficult to LA weave with a controller.

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/h7qdti/how_much_does_light_attack_weaving_effect_dps/

Do note that with light attacks you can proc enchants, sets, get ultimate faster, so it is beneficial even for the arcanists that use the velothi mythic ring. It is far more than the dmg you do with the light attack itself.

Braffin

Vex.1337 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the game is a maximum of 120 actions per minute if you had perfect weaving, not sure where your getting "hundreds"

theres also alternatives to reduce the number of actions and still get decent dmg, oakensoul HA build is still feasible and besides holding down the left click for the HA (which is 2.1 sec cast time), you only have to hit a skill every 3rd GCD (outside of the HA, that is only 20 actions per minute)

the other option, as was suggested is the velothi mythic, which debuffs your light and heavy attacks and buffs your other skills by an equivalent amount (most parses the light attack dmg is around 14-16% of the parse, and velothi mythic is 15% flat dmg increase)

for non-arcanist your going to be down to basically 60 actions per minute (maybe slightly more to throw in a few light attack to keep ult generating), for an arcanist which has a 4.5 sec beam of fatecarver, thats 2 skills every 6 seconds, or about the same as a heavy attack build of around 20 actions per minute (also maybe a little higher if you still throw in light attacks now and then for ult gen)

i know i still typically weave on my arcanist velothi build, like when im generating crux even though i dont have to (i do kind of find it hilarious that light attacks hit for like 40 dmg with that mythic on lol)

It does makes sense for the cap to be 120 casts per minute since you are required to do two actions in a second to perfect weave, you can find this information under CPM here https://www.esologs.com/reports/YGJ1TPDA4xvyHbak#fight=35&type=casts&source=5 where a DK reached 114.4 casts per minute.

Still I find it excessive and it appears that other players agree with me, especially console players, I assume it is more difficult to LA weave with a controller.

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/h7qdti/how_much_does_light_attack_weaving_effect_dps/

Do note that with light attacks you can proc enchants, sets, get ultimate faster, so it is beneficial even for the arcanists that use the velothi mythic ring. It is far more than the dmg you do with the light attack itself.

The reddit-link you posted is highly outdated, as the discussion was way before U35.

Ultimate generation is calculated by a hidden buff, which lasts 9 seconds. So you won't gain additional ultimate by LA or HA more often than once every 9 seconds.

Weapon enchantments aren't solely procced by LA and HA but also weapon skills (like elemental blockade). Cooldowns are 4 seconds for damaging enchantments and 10 seconds for spell/weapon power enchantments.

So no, there is no need for LA weaving to achieve viable dps.

You just don't like it and want it gone. As said before, nothing more than entitlement.

Vex.1337

Apologies, I meant to link a more recent thread which is less than a day old
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/15l9o51/is_weaving_still_mandatory/

I think this combat mechanic will make most people that try this game to never get involved into endgame.
Without mastering a LA build and causing carpal tunnel to your index finger you will never be able to compete since you will do 25% less dmg.

I am sorry if I sound entitled but I don't like ESO that much to hurt my long term health, especially since I am in my thirties now.

Necrotech_Master

you dont have to do 110k+ dps to be competitive, or even complete vet content unless your scorepushing or going for trifectas, you only need about 70-80k dps to basically at least clear almost everything including some hard modes

and if the alternate builds to a classic 2 bar weaving build dont interest you, learn to tank or heal as you need far less actions per minute for those roles

im in my 30s, and ive been playing this game for almost 9.5 years, and ive been playing games in general for about 20-25 years with far far more button mashing than this and i dont have carpal tunnel lol

Braffin

Vex.1337 wrote: »

Apologies, I meant to link a more recent thread which is less than a day old
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/15l9o51/is_weaving_still_mandatory/

I think this combat mechanic will make most people that try this game to never get involved into endgame.
Without mastering a LA build and causing carpal tunnel to your index finger you will never be able to compete since you will do 25% less dmg.

I am sorry if I sound entitled but I don't like ESO that much to hurt my long term health, especially since I am in my thirties now.

Why don't you try one of the alternatives to LA weaving then, which were presented in this thread?

On top of that: It's absolutely not necessary to parse 100k+ outside of leaderboard intentions. It may take more time to find a relaxed group to play with, which is unfortunately a reality (but definitely not caused by LA weaving or eso in general). Nontheless these groups exist, although most of them don't use eso-logs, simply because they raid for fun, not for points.

Getting a clear will take longer this way, sure. But in general, outside of scorepushing you will be able to clear every trial without ApM > 100, including HM.

Braffin

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

im in my 30s, and ive been playing this game for almost 9.5 years, and ive been playing games in general for about 20-25 years with far far more button mashing than this and i dont have carpal tunnel lol

Same for me. I'm in my late 30s and have no problems with my hands, although I'm playing video games (which includes a whole lot of more engaging ones, like fast-paced shooters for example).

Sometimes when I look at this forums it seems that only retired precision mechanics are playing eso. But then I remember that this forums are full of entitled FOMOists, which expect every shiny reward layed at their feet.

MudcrabAttack

You don’t have to do any weapon attacks at all to deal enough damage for the hard content




On an Arcanist I’ll average about 40 actions per minute in raids, throw in one light attack once in a while before beaming

loveeso

Vex.1337 wrote: »

I have been playing this game for a while now and I don't enjoy the light attack weaving aspect of the combat mechanics.
It requires you to do 2 actions per second instead of one and if you don't the DPS seems to drop between 20 to 40% depending on what gear sets you are using.
I am aware there are alternatives to light attack weaving but the highest DPS in the game can be reached only if you master this combat mechanic.

It is not a healthy mechanic for the player either as it can easily create carpal tunnel syndrome in the long term.

My suggestion would be to put the light attack on a similar cooldown as a regular ability with no less than 1 second, this way you would have to pick to either light attack in order to proc a buff/debuff or use a regular ability.

Looking at eso logs at what a very experienced player does in this game it seems that in a fight that last 7 mins they do around 200 light attacks and about 100 weapon swaps during their regular rotations. All buttons should be fun to press and I don't find light attacking or weapon swapping a fun mechanic in a videogame. The animations look off too when you do multiple actions per seconds with your character and it doesn't seem that the original game was designed with this mechanic in mind either.

The log I linked below is also for arcanist which do have a long channel ability that prevents them from light attacking.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/HdLRJ14CWnjrADaM#fight=17&type=casts&source=2

For DK the number of light attacks reach 350 in a 7 mins fight https://www.esologs.com/reports/xXWA1akQVnR6hBmM#fight=50&type=casts&source=6

This is not what the average player DPS looks like but is something that most players should strive to get to. However, when a new player come into the game and discovers the number of actions per minute they are required to do in order to be optimal they either never go into endgame content or play something else.

I am not an endgame player but I might want to get into raids at some point, this is just a suggestion for the ESO combat dev team.

Thanks!

I don’t believe ZOS will change it. I quite like LA-weaving but I do understand why so many others don’t (also: I do think it is very unhealthy and we will probably all pay for it in the future when we get arthritis or something). Off the top of my head, I see two solutions:

1. You can buy the new expansion to get the amulet (but even with that you should still weave if you want to optimise, otherwise your sustain / ultimate regeneration and DPS will usually suffer)
2. You can switch to another MMORPG with action combat, dodging, aiming, bar swapping, where there is no LA-weaving, like GW2 (combat in ESO & GW2 is only slightly different, I like it in both)

A few months ago there would be another possible solution - switching to an HA build - but ZOS nuked those before Necrom (and new nerfs are coming soon, already on the PTS) so I can no longer recommend it

CameraBeardThePirate

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Vex.1337 wrote: »

I don't enjoy or find interesting this kind of combat playstyle, I understand having to press buttons faster in a certain order to do more damage but I find it that it is too extreme in this game.

Fine, you don't enjoy LA weaving. That's absolutely legitimate.

But why do you think you're forced to participate in this part of "combat mastery"? Every activity is completeable without LA weaving, so you loose nothing by playing the way you personally prefer.

There is no reason I'm aware of to kill off the game for all players which enjoy LA weaving, except maybe the wish to be a "top player" without investing the necessary training. But that would be nothing else than entitlement.

Animation cancellation in games has a tendency to lead to balance issues. Either the individuals using them will have more power than intended or those not using them will have less power than intended which can easily create frustrating moments.

Attempts to try to balance it out somewhat at an overall level can frequently lead to side effects. For example, Light attacks in ESO are a bit limited due to attempts to balance weaving.

If people actually enjoy weaving as a mechanic and not just as an advantage they hold over other people , you could have it be a feature of certain sets so that it could be more carefully balanced with less outside side effects.

It is a feature of certain sets though - quite a few in fact. Kinras, Relequen, basically any set that stacks with light attacks and has a low stack duration is a set that's designed to be used with light attack weaving.