The Meta

merpins

Here's the problem with ESO right now when it comes to DPS:
PVE players use less than 10 sets total. It's all about a handful of trial sets and an even smaller handful of non-trial sets, and the only non-trial set that is actually good outside Arcanist and Templar, is Pillars of Nirn. I'm not saying having a non-trial set be good is a bad thing. I'm saying having so few options is a bad thing. There used to be a larger number of sets available for us to use that were kinda good, but even back then, sets like New Moon Acolyte, or even older, sets like War Maidens, though they were considered good, they weren't meta.

Over the years, the meta for both PVE and PVP has shrunk into a couple sets. If you look at any meta PVE build, you'll probably find some combination of four sets:

Pillars of Nirn, Arms of Relequen, Whorl of the Depths, and Coral Riptide

...or Deadly when it comes to Arcanist or Templar.

4 (kinda 5) sets to rule them all, and only one is a non-trial set. But of course, you should pair a trial set with a non-trial set, since otherwise you won't get that 5% bonus damage in PVE, but having it be so limiting... There's literally hundreds of sets in this game, over 75 of them are crafted. I mean, just look at the release of Arcanist, 11 whole new sets! But how many are meta? None.


My proposition is this. Buff all DPS-centric sets in the game, and make them all comparable.
Every set should be good for different reasons. There should be a bench mark of around 120k dps for two sets + other things like a mythic, monster helm set, and/or ability altering weapon. With practice, knowing your rotations, picking the right sets that work well together, that should be the benchmark, with your class coming into play on top of it all.

You should be able to take any 2 damage sets in the game and make a good build out of it.
Make it so if you don't do a trial set you generally deal ~5% less damage due to that passive, that's fine! Make some sets only work for certain classes, like how Deadly is pretty meta for Arcanist and Templar! But players should have a million and one choices when it comes to damage dealing, not just 4. Make it so we can grab like... Unfathomable Darkness + Spell Strategist and, along with your other choices of gear, you can hit those high DPS numbers.

This goes the same for PVP sets. Set a benchmark, and make it so that's the benchmark to meet when it comes to the power scaling of the sets for that content. Same with tanking sets and healing sets and support sets, all of these are important. We have so many choices, but none of them are good? This should not be the case.

Obviously there are some class problems right now as well that I wish were addressed. But this thread is focused on the set problem.

I_killed_Vivec

But then there's no reason to buy the latest chapter and farm the latest meta.

At least that's how ZoS sees it.

OsUfi

They've been trying to standardize everything for a couple of years now.

They'll never get it right, as meta can be as little as 1k DPS. If there's a best in slot, the meta chasers will use it and tell you everything else is trash.

With all that said, unless you're at vet trial score chasing super meta, I think ZoS does a good job of making all sets in the game viable.

merpins

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

But then there's no reason to buy the latest chapter and farm the latest meta.

At least that's how ZoS sees it.

Sure, but look at the latest chapter. What meta sets were actually released? Velothi Ur-mage amulet for arcanist only?
They don't need to release 10 sets every chapter, but releasing super interesting ways to do DPS, tanking, or healing, in both PVE and PVP would be great. Maybe the new sets ARE a bit power creeped for a couple patches before they're brought back to the standard a bit. That's fine, so long as everything is viable and considered meta.

Treeshka

Meta as a word depicts most efficient way and in this game most efficient way is sort of a math game, since game uses equations to determine damage output.

So no matter what they change about current sets some other set will shine and will become meta. Meta damage dealers will use those and drop others. This is a cycle that happens from time to time.

jsjem

Need more and better sets for magicka dps. Most non-trial light armor sets are trash, and most of the left ones are for healers.

BasP

merpins wrote: »

My proposition is this. Buff all DPS-centric sets in the game, and make them all comparable.
Every set should be good for different reasons. There should be a bench mark of around 120k dps for two sets + other things like a mythic, monster helm set, and/or ability altering weapon.

I definitely agree, up to a certain point. I reckon the difficulty of the content in which the gear can be obtained in should be factored into the equation too though. I think it's fair that Pillar of Nirn is better than, for example, a 2-piece crafted DPS set like Ashen Grip or an overland set like Shadow of the Red Mountain.

As someone who doesn't do Trials I do wish that there were more viable alternatives to PoN that dropped from Dungeons or Arenas though. It'd be great if my Frostden for example could use a set like Winterborn or Icy Conjurer without suffering a noticeable DPS loss.

Lumenn

All I know is that I have a soft spot for tbs. Way back that was my go to for every new toon I made. It's that early game nostalgia you have(like running a lvl one barbarian in EQ1 to kelethin) getting 9/9 research was my first "BIG DEAL" back then. They need to fix it. The resources it gives is pitiful today and mundus stones aren't what they used to be. Give it a strong wd (a new set had almost 600) or double the resources and make it thrice born.

DO something with this forgotten, once noble set!

Ragnarok0130

OP META being "most effective tactic available" will always be a small group because not everything can be the most effective. A lot of non-meta sets are still very effective depending on which content you are doing. If you want to raid at HM levels it behooves you to chase the meta, if you're trying to increase your DPS it behooves you to chase the meta, however if you are just doing overland, or casually doing group content you can get away with non-meta sets or older meta sets because you're not trying to eek out every point of DPS. I've seen people still running kinras/bahsei to good effect in vet trials although it is very rare.

BasP wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

My proposition is this. Buff all DPS-centric sets in the game, and make them all comparable.
Every set should be good for different reasons. There should be a bench mark of around 120k dps for two sets + other things like a mythic, monster helm set, and/or ability altering weapon.

I definitely agree, up to a certain point. I reckon the difficulty of the content in which the gear can be obtained in should be factored into the equation too though. I think it's fair that Pillar of Nirn is better than, for example, a 2-piece crafted DPS set like Ashen Grip or an overland set like Shadow of the Red Mountain.

As someone who doesn't do Trials I do wish that there were more viable alternatives to PoN that dropped from Dungeons or Arenas though. It'd be great if my Frostden for example could use a set like Winterborn or Icy Conjurer without suffering a noticeable DPS loss.

@BasP Pillar of Nirn drops from Falkreath hold - a dungeon. Flame Blossom another dungeon set from Bloodroot Forge is also a good sub for Pillar of Nirn. Out of the current meta DPS sets Coral Riptide and Whorld of Depths are from the Dreadsail reef trial and Arms of Relequen is from the Cloudrest trial. You can run the trials on normal for a quick clear to farm the set since the non-perfected version if still fine. There are frequently normal PUG trial runs for DSR and Cloudrest forming in Craglorn chat daily.

Soarora

More things are viable than one may think but there are still a lot of useless sets that could use a buff.

Braffin

Soarora wrote: »

More things are viable than one may think but there are still a lot of useless sets that could use a buff.

I agree. Chasing the meta is required for around 2% of this game's content. On top of that the meta isn't always the safest option to get a clear.

I think most players have difficulties to differentiate between "viable option" and "mathematically meta". That's why they force themselves to use specific sets regardless of content.

virtus753

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Flame Blossom another dungeon set from Bloodroot Forge is also a good sub for Pillar of Nirn.

Flame Blossom can be meta on mag builds when the boss’s hit box is big enough that the line of fire hits 2-3 times per proc, which seems like a bug to me. I’m curious if it would be competitive with Nirn without that.

merpins

Treeshka wrote: »

Meta as a word depicts most efficient way and in this game most efficient way is sort of a math game, since game uses equations to determine damage output.

So no matter what they change about current sets some other set will shine and will become meta. Meta damage dealers will use those and drop others. This is a cycle that happens from time to time.

Of course there will be sets that do more for players, damage wise. There will always bet a true meta. But right now, the difference between meta sets and non-meta sets is between the ground and the sky. If you use two non-meta sets, even the beginner sets that meta-chasers recommend, you won't even be able to break 75k dps no matter how good at the game you are. You'll probably be around 60k dps for the most part, which is about half the damage you'd be doing if you just used a meta set.

If the difference between off-meta and actual-meta was only 20k dps, then all set choices would be viable at end game. Right now, off-meta would still be among the true meta.