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Can we get smarter Expert-level NPCs?
disky
✭✭✭✭✭
I hope I'm not in the minority but I feel like the Expert-level NPCs still make a lot of very rookie mistakes, especially at the outset of matches. It's gotten to the point that I know I won't have to worry about not taking certain cards over others right away, because the NPC AI prioritizes taking writs from the bank rather than cards which might be far more valuable. They also tend to avoid using patrons at opportune times, they never go for patron victories and they discard valuable cards using discard powers even when they have better discard options.
I'm not advocating for stronger Novices, but I do think Experts could and should be better, for those who want that degree of challenge. I know you can do it ZOS!
I'm not advocating for stronger Novices, but I do think Experts could and should be better, for those who want that degree of challenge. I know you can do it ZOS!
0
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Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I am sure they can (although I imagine it‘s hard to program an AI when there are so so many variables), but may I ask you why you don’t do matches against players? If you seek for more difficult opponents, that’s where you’ll find them.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -1 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »I am sure they can (although I imagine it‘s hard to program an AI when there are so so many variables), but may I ask you why you don’t do matches against players? If you seek for more difficult opponents, that’s where you’ll find them.
I lost interest in PvP after some bad post-game interactions with opponents. I'm not really someone that engages with normal PvP anyway, so I'd rather just have a decent AI opponent.0 -
katanagirl1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
Khajiit Stamblade main
Dark Elf Magsorc
Redguard Stamina Dragonknight
Orc Stamplar PVP
Breton Magsorc PVP
Dark Elf Magden
Khajiit Stamblade
Khajiit Stamina Arcanist
PS5 NA1 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.0 -
CGPsaint✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The most irritating move that I see constantly from expert level NPCs is spamming the Orgnum patron EVERY SINGLE TURN. It honestly is a complete turn off and a major reason that I can't be bothered to play ToT more than necessary.1 -
katanagirl1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
Khajiit Stamblade main
Dark Elf Magsorc
Redguard Stamina Dragonknight
Orc Stamplar PVP
Breton Magsorc PVP
Dark Elf Magden
Khajiit Stamblade
Khajiit Stamina Arcanist
PS5 NA0 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭The most irritating move that I see constantly from expert level NPCs is spamming the Orgnum patron EVERY SINGLE TURN. It honestly is a complete turn off and a major reason that I can't be bothered to play ToT more than necessary.
I totally agree that Orgnum's patron power is super annoying and sucks all of the tactical depth out of the game. It's gotten to a point where I know it's going to happen and I just do everything I can to win WITHOUT touching Orgnum, just to spite whoever designed it. That being said, it's a separate issue and I still want ZOS to buff Experts. I'd be happy to lose more often if it means the challenge is increased.0 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.0 -
CGPsaint✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
Novice and Proficient NPCs are currently over-tuned, and from personal experience playing against Expert NPCs (at the moment) is the easiest way to win.0 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
Novice and Proficient NPCs are currently over-tuned, and from personal experience playing against Expert NPCs (at the moment) is the easiest way to win.
What? Novice NPCs are an absolute joke to play against, they have no strategy at all and do the weirdest and dumbest moves (and I started playing ToT just 3 weeks ago).Edited by Seraphayel on July 19, 2023 10:14PMPS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
CGPsaint✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »What? Novice NPCs are an absolute joke to play against, they have no strategy at all and do the weirdest and dumbest moves (and I started playing ToT just 3 weeks ago).jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
Novice and Proficient NPCs are currently over-tuned, and from personal experience playing against Expert NPCs (at the moment) is the easiest way to win.
I've played against all levels and Novice/Proficient are the only ones to constantly spam patrons (Orgnum Spam) or try to force patron wins, which forces you to constantly have to play the patrons to avoid a silly defeat. I personally think that Expert are the easiest and that's what I choose to play.
2 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »What? Novice NPCs are an absolute joke to play against, they have no strategy at all and do the weirdest and dumbest moves (and I started playing ToT just 3 weeks ago).jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
Novice and Proficient NPCs are currently over-tuned, and from personal experience playing against Expert NPCs (at the moment) is the easiest way to win.
I've played against all levels and Novice/Proficient are the only ones to constantly spam patrons (Orgnum Spam) or try to force patron wins, which forces you to constantly have to play the patrons to avoid a silly defeat. I personally think that Expert are the easiest and that's what I choose to play.
I only ever play against Expert, so if that is the case then there's clearly more work to be done in balancing the difficulty levels...but still, I think Expert opponents should reflect their rank, and that means no longer making silly mistakes.0 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »What? Novice NPCs are an absolute joke to play against, they have no strategy at all and do the weirdest and dumbest moves (and I started playing ToT just 3 weeks ago).jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
Novice and Proficient NPCs are currently over-tuned, and from personal experience playing against Expert NPCs (at the moment) is the easiest way to win.
I've played against all levels and Novice/Proficient are the only ones to constantly spam patrons (Orgnum Spam) or try to force patron wins, which forces you to constantly have to play the patrons to avoid a silly defeat. I personally think that Expert are the easiest and that's what I choose to play.
i guess you dont play many matches with hlaalu against novice lol
they spam hlaalu over everything else and will never have any gold generation
if rahjiin is in play just throw a few bewilderments at them and they soon wont be able to much of anything because they never remove the bewilderments lol (if they get card removers, they remove the gold coin cards first lol)plays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities0 -
CGPsaint✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »i guess you dont play many matches with hlaalu against novice lolSeraphayel wrote: »What? Novice NPCs are an absolute joke to play against, they have no strategy at all and do the weirdest and dumbest moves (and I started playing ToT just 3 weeks ago).jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
Novice and Proficient NPCs are currently over-tuned, and from personal experience playing against Expert NPCs (at the moment) is the easiest way to win.
I've played against all levels and Novice/Proficient are the only ones to constantly spam patrons (Orgnum Spam) or try to force patron wins, which forces you to constantly have to play the patrons to avoid a silly defeat. I personally think that Expert are the easiest and that's what I choose to play.
they spam hlaalu over everything else and will never have any gold generation
if rahjiin is in play just throw a few bewilderments at them and they soon wont be able to much of anything because they never remove the bewilderments lol (if they get card removers, they remove the gold coin cards first lol)
Hmmm. Maybe I need to try playing Hlaalu/Red Eagle and see if I can get the NPC to self-destruct every match.0 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »i guess you dont play many matches with hlaalu against novice lolSeraphayel wrote: »What? Novice NPCs are an absolute joke to play against, they have no strategy at all and do the weirdest and dumbest moves (and I started playing ToT just 3 weeks ago).jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
Novice and Proficient NPCs are currently over-tuned, and from personal experience playing against Expert NPCs (at the moment) is the easiest way to win.
I've played against all levels and Novice/Proficient are the only ones to constantly spam patrons (Orgnum Spam) or try to force patron wins, which forces you to constantly have to play the patrons to avoid a silly defeat. I personally think that Expert are the easiest and that's what I choose to play.
they spam hlaalu over everything else and will never have any gold generation
if rahjiin is in play just throw a few bewilderments at them and they soon wont be able to much of anything because they never remove the bewilderments lol (if they get card removers, they remove the gold coin cards first lol)
Hmmm. Maybe I need to try playing Hlaalu/Red Eagle and see if I can get the NPC to self-destruct every match.
my easiest time with the novice npcs has been with rahjin + hlaalu
if the npc does not pick hlaalu, then you pick it lol, they are extremely predictable (you would have to pick rahjin since novice npc cant pick that one)
it doesnt really matter what other decks are in play, but the npc will reliably 100% buy cards from the tavern and then sacrifice them as soon as they come up again, so -prestige from rahjin + some bewilderments and it will basically prevent them from being able to buy much of anything because they will very rarely actually use the treasury
if they do occasionally hit rahjin to send bewilderments to you, just use card removers or treasury to get rid of them, you can be sure the npc will not get rid of those lolplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities0 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »i guess you dont play many matches with hlaalu against novice lolSeraphayel wrote: »What? Novice NPCs are an absolute joke to play against, they have no strategy at all and do the weirdest and dumbest moves (and I started playing ToT just 3 weeks ago).jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
Novice and Proficient NPCs are currently over-tuned, and from personal experience playing against Expert NPCs (at the moment) is the easiest way to win.
I've played against all levels and Novice/Proficient are the only ones to constantly spam patrons (Orgnum Spam) or try to force patron wins, which forces you to constantly have to play the patrons to avoid a silly defeat. I personally think that Expert are the easiest and that's what I choose to play.
they spam hlaalu over everything else and will never have any gold generation
if rahjiin is in play just throw a few bewilderments at them and they soon wont be able to much of anything because they never remove the bewilderments lol (if they get card removers, they remove the gold coin cards first lol)
Hmmm. Maybe I need to try playing Hlaalu/Red Eagle and see if I can get the NPC to self-destruct every match.
I posted a screenshot of an NPC doing exactly this a while ago. If you let them, they, will completely delete their entire deck:
It was actually part of the motivation for this thread. Expert-level NPCs should not be doing dumb stuff like this.0 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.
Actually, I'm playing the Proficient NPCs right now because they're better than the Experts. But they have their issues too.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/637188/stupid-npc-tricks#latest0 -
katanagirl1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.
No, expert npcs are just fine, I don’t want them tweaked like you are suggesting.
Khajiit Stamblade main
Dark Elf Magsorc
Redguard Stamina Dragonknight
Orc Stamplar PVP
Breton Magsorc PVP
Dark Elf Magden
Khajiit Stamblade
Khajiit Stamina Arcanist
PS5 NA1 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.
No, expert npcs are just fine, I don’t want them tweaked like you are suggesting.
They're absolutely not fine, though. They make incredibly simple mistakes and their brain-dead behavior often feels like it could be bugged. As "Experts" they should be playing a better game, and I don't see a problem with improving the Expert AI so that people who want an actual challenge from the AI can enjoy it, especially if there are adequate degrees of difficulty available.
Do you take issue with this because you want to feel like you're defeating an Expert, even if it's in name only? That's a hollow victory, and If all you want is a lead, just play against Novice. I don't understand the opposition.0 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.
Actually, I'm playing the Proficient NPCs right now because they're better than the Experts. But they have their issues too.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/637188/stupid-npc-tricks#latest
I'll try playing against some Proficients and see if they make better decisions, but that just underscores the need to fix Experts.0 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »Necrotech_Master wrote: »i guess you dont play many matches with hlaalu against novice lolSeraphayel wrote: »What? Novice NPCs are an absolute joke to play against, they have no strategy at all and do the weirdest and dumbest moves (and I started playing ToT just 3 weeks ago).jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
Novice and Proficient NPCs are currently over-tuned, and from personal experience playing against Expert NPCs (at the moment) is the easiest way to win.
I've played against all levels and Novice/Proficient are the only ones to constantly spam patrons (Orgnum Spam) or try to force patron wins, which forces you to constantly have to play the patrons to avoid a silly defeat. I personally think that Expert are the easiest and that's what I choose to play.
they spam hlaalu over everything else and will never have any gold generation
if rahjiin is in play just throw a few bewilderments at them and they soon wont be able to much of anything because they never remove the bewilderments lol (if they get card removers, they remove the gold coin cards first lol)
Hmmm. Maybe I need to try playing Hlaalu/Red Eagle and see if I can get the NPC to self-destruct every match.
I posted a screenshot of an NPC doing exactly this a while ago. If you let them, they, will completely delete their entire deck:
It was actually part of the motivation for this thread. Expert-level NPCs should not be doing dumb stuff like this.
pretty sure all levels of the NPC will do this, ive seen a novice do this tooplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities1 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »Necrotech_Master wrote: »i guess you dont play many matches with hlaalu against novice lolSeraphayel wrote: »What? Novice NPCs are an absolute joke to play against, they have no strategy at all and do the weirdest and dumbest moves (and I started playing ToT just 3 weeks ago).jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
Novice and Proficient NPCs are currently over-tuned, and from personal experience playing against Expert NPCs (at the moment) is the easiest way to win.
I've played against all levels and Novice/Proficient are the only ones to constantly spam patrons (Orgnum Spam) or try to force patron wins, which forces you to constantly have to play the patrons to avoid a silly defeat. I personally think that Expert are the easiest and that's what I choose to play.
they spam hlaalu over everything else and will never have any gold generation
if rahjiin is in play just throw a few bewilderments at them and they soon wont be able to much of anything because they never remove the bewilderments lol (if they get card removers, they remove the gold coin cards first lol)
Hmmm. Maybe I need to try playing Hlaalu/Red Eagle and see if I can get the NPC to self-destruct every match.
I posted a screenshot of an NPC doing exactly this a while ago. If you let them, they, will completely delete their entire deck:
It was actually part of the motivation for this thread. Expert-level NPCs should not be doing dumb stuff like this.
pretty sure all levels of the NPC will do this, ive seen a novice do this too
Yes, but I understand that there are a lot of people who don't want the difficulty to increase as it has for Novice in the recent patch, and so I'd be more than happy if they only improved Experts.0 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »Necrotech_Master wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »Necrotech_Master wrote: »i guess you dont play many matches with hlaalu against novice lolSeraphayel wrote: »What? Novice NPCs are an absolute joke to play against, they have no strategy at all and do the weirdest and dumbest moves (and I started playing ToT just 3 weeks ago).jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
Novice and Proficient NPCs are currently over-tuned, and from personal experience playing against Expert NPCs (at the moment) is the easiest way to win.
I've played against all levels and Novice/Proficient are the only ones to constantly spam patrons (Orgnum Spam) or try to force patron wins, which forces you to constantly have to play the patrons to avoid a silly defeat. I personally think that Expert are the easiest and that's what I choose to play.
they spam hlaalu over everything else and will never have any gold generation
if rahjiin is in play just throw a few bewilderments at them and they soon wont be able to much of anything because they never remove the bewilderments lol (if they get card removers, they remove the gold coin cards first lol)
Hmmm. Maybe I need to try playing Hlaalu/Red Eagle and see if I can get the NPC to self-destruct every match.
I posted a screenshot of an NPC doing exactly this a while ago. If you let them, they, will completely delete their entire deck:
It was actually part of the motivation for this thread. Expert-level NPCs should not be doing dumb stuff like this.
pretty sure all levels of the NPC will do this, ive seen a novice do this too
Yes, but I understand that there are a lot of people who don't want the difficulty to increase as it has for Novice in the recent patch, and so I'd be more than happy if they only improved Experts.
my experience with the AI is that they are like roughly 90% the same, ive seen the generally same predictable things happen at all levels (including the "masters")
i never said the experts shouldnt be harder, but as far as i can tell the AI appears to be basically the same, but with a few minor tweaks as to what they should prioritizeplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities1 -
katanagirl1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.
No, expert npcs are just fine, I don’t want them tweaked like you are suggesting.
They're absolutely not fine, though. They make incredibly simple mistakes and their brain-dead behavior often feels like it could be bugged. As "Experts" they should be playing a better game, and I don't see a problem with improving the Expert AI so that people who want an actual challenge from the AI can enjoy it, especially if there are adequate degrees of difficulty available.
Do you take issue with this because you want to feel like you're defeating an Expert, even if it's in name only? That's a hollow victory, and If all you want is a lead, just play against Novice. I don't understand the opposition.
No, I’m tired of the 0.01% percentile of players coming in and griping about things being too easy and ruining it for everyone else. The game has to balance around the median player. If expert npcs are not enough for you then you need to play other players.
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disky✭✭✭✭✭katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.
No, expert npcs are just fine, I don’t want them tweaked like you are suggesting.
They're absolutely not fine, though. They make incredibly simple mistakes and their brain-dead behavior often feels like it could be bugged. As "Experts" they should be playing a better game, and I don't see a problem with improving the Expert AI so that people who want an actual challenge from the AI can enjoy it, especially if there are adequate degrees of difficulty available.
Do you take issue with this because you want to feel like you're defeating an Expert, even if it's in name only? That's a hollow victory, and If all you want is a lead, just play against Novice. I don't understand the opposition.
No, I’m tired of the 0.01% percentile of players coming in and griping about things being too easy and ruining it for everyone else. The game has to balance around the median player. If expert npcs are not enough for you then you need to play other players.
Did you see the screenshot I posted above which shows the AI deleting its entire deck? It's making very silly mistakes that it definitely shouldn't be making. It's not fine. ZOS has the ability to fix problems and create challenge levels which accommodate all players. Please don't advocate for them to keep their game brain-dead and broken because you want to maintain your sense of victory over an Expert that is anything but.0 -
katanagirl1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.
No, expert npcs are just fine, I don’t want them tweaked like you are suggesting.
They're absolutely not fine, though. They make incredibly simple mistakes and their brain-dead behavior often feels like it could be bugged. As "Experts" they should be playing a better game, and I don't see a problem with improving the Expert AI so that people who want an actual challenge from the AI can enjoy it, especially if there are adequate degrees of difficulty available.
Do you take issue with this because you want to feel like you're defeating an Expert, even if it's in name only? That's a hollow victory, and If all you want is a lead, just play against Novice. I don't understand the opposition.
No, I’m tired of the 0.01% percentile of players coming in and griping about things being too easy and ruining it for everyone else. The game has to balance around the median player. If expert npcs are not enough for you then you need to play other players.
Did you see the screenshot I posted above which shows the AI deleting its entire deck? It's making very silly mistakes that it definitely shouldn't be making. It's not fine. ZOS has the ability to fix problems and create challenge levels which accommodate all players. Please don't advocate for them to keep their game brain-dead and broken because you want to maintain your sense of victory over an Expert that is anything but.
Their attempt to make expert npcs harder has instead made the novice npcs impossible for starting players to beat. Thanks for that.Khajiit Stamblade main
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Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.
No, expert npcs are just fine, I don’t want them tweaked like you are suggesting.
They're absolutely not fine, though. They make incredibly simple mistakes and their brain-dead behavior often feels like it could be bugged. As "Experts" they should be playing a better game, and I don't see a problem with improving the Expert AI so that people who want an actual challenge from the AI can enjoy it, especially if there are adequate degrees of difficulty available.
Do you take issue with this because you want to feel like you're defeating an Expert, even if it's in name only? That's a hollow victory, and If all you want is a lead, just play against Novice. I don't understand the opposition.
No, I’m tired of the 0.01% percentile of players coming in and griping about things being too easy and ruining it for everyone else. The game has to balance around the median player. If expert npcs are not enough for you then you need to play other players.
Did you see the screenshot I posted above which shows the AI deleting its entire deck? It's making very silly mistakes that it definitely shouldn't be making. It's not fine. ZOS has the ability to fix problems and create challenge levels which accommodate all players. Please don't advocate for them to keep their game brain-dead and broken because you want to maintain your sense of victory over an Expert that is anything but.
Their attempt to make expert npcs harder has instead made the novice npcs impossible for starting players to beat. Thanks for that.
Not really? As I said somewhere else, I started ToT about a month ago. The NPCs where difficult at first when I had no clue about the game, they’re an utter joke now. I have no idea how they would be impossible to beat for starting players when I was in that position just weeks ago and did fine.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -1 -
disky✭✭✭✭✭katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.
No, expert npcs are just fine, I don’t want them tweaked like you are suggesting.
They're absolutely not fine, though. They make incredibly simple mistakes and their brain-dead behavior often feels like it could be bugged. As "Experts" they should be playing a better game, and I don't see a problem with improving the Expert AI so that people who want an actual challenge from the AI can enjoy it, especially if there are adequate degrees of difficulty available.
Do you take issue with this because you want to feel like you're defeating an Expert, even if it's in name only? That's a hollow victory, and If all you want is a lead, just play against Novice. I don't understand the opposition.
No, I’m tired of the 0.01% percentile of players coming in and griping about things being too easy and ruining it for everyone else. The game has to balance around the median player. If expert npcs are not enough for you then you need to play other players.
Did you see the screenshot I posted above which shows the AI deleting its entire deck? It's making very silly mistakes that it definitely shouldn't be making. It's not fine. ZOS has the ability to fix problems and create challenge levels which accommodate all players. Please don't advocate for them to keep their game brain-dead and broken because you want to maintain your sense of victory over an Expert that is anything but.
Their attempt to make expert npcs harder has instead made the novice npcs impossible for starting players to beat. Thanks for that.
I wouldn't know because I don't play Novice, but if that is true then it's a separate issue from what this post is about. I do think Tribute could use a rebalance across all difficulty levels in order to better suit all players, but that includes people who have a lot of experience with the game and want a real challenge. We can all have a good time if ZOS handles this properly.0 -
katanagirl1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.
No, expert npcs are just fine, I don’t want them tweaked like you are suggesting.
They're absolutely not fine, though. They make incredibly simple mistakes and their brain-dead behavior often feels like it could be bugged. As "Experts" they should be playing a better game, and I don't see a problem with improving the Expert AI so that people who want an actual challenge from the AI can enjoy it, especially if there are adequate degrees of difficulty available.
Do you take issue with this because you want to feel like you're defeating an Expert, even if it's in name only? That's a hollow victory, and If all you want is a lead, just play against Novice. I don't understand the opposition.
No, I’m tired of the 0.01% percentile of players coming in and griping about things being too easy and ruining it for everyone else. The game has to balance around the median player. If expert npcs are not enough for you then you need to play other players.
Did you see the screenshot I posted above which shows the AI deleting its entire deck? It's making very silly mistakes that it definitely shouldn't be making. It's not fine. ZOS has the ability to fix problems and create challenge levels which accommodate all players. Please don't advocate for them to keep their game brain-dead and broken because you want to maintain your sense of victory over an Expert that is anything but.
Their attempt to make expert npcs harder has instead made the novice npcs impossible for starting players to beat. Thanks for that.
I wouldn't know because I don't play Novice, but if that is true then it's a separate issue from what this post is about. I do think Tribute could use a rebalance across all difficulty levels in order to better suit all players, but that includes people who have a lot of experience with the game and want a real challenge. We can all have a good time if ZOS handles this properly.
It’s not a separate issue. Seems they buffed the Novice npcs instead of the Expert ones.
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disky✭✭✭✭✭katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »katanagirl1 wrote: »No thanks. I need to start doing these again for a lead and I don’t care to have to spend any more time than necessary to get the wins and turn in the quest.
I'm not asking for Novices to be made more challenging, only Experts. You can still get the same rewards from any difficulty, I just want Experts to live up to their rank.
I play the expert npcs.
You don't have to though? If you find that Experts are too strong, simply play Proficient or Novice NPCs. If all you really want to do is achieve a material goal like a lead then there's no reason to interact with Experts.
No, expert npcs are just fine, I don’t want them tweaked like you are suggesting.
They're absolutely not fine, though. They make incredibly simple mistakes and their brain-dead behavior often feels like it could be bugged. As "Experts" they should be playing a better game, and I don't see a problem with improving the Expert AI so that people who want an actual challenge from the AI can enjoy it, especially if there are adequate degrees of difficulty available.
Do you take issue with this because you want to feel like you're defeating an Expert, even if it's in name only? That's a hollow victory, and If all you want is a lead, just play against Novice. I don't understand the opposition.
No, I’m tired of the 0.01% percentile of players coming in and griping about things being too easy and ruining it for everyone else. The game has to balance around the median player. If expert npcs are not enough for you then you need to play other players.
Did you see the screenshot I posted above which shows the AI deleting its entire deck? It's making very silly mistakes that it definitely shouldn't be making. It's not fine. ZOS has the ability to fix problems and create challenge levels which accommodate all players. Please don't advocate for them to keep their game brain-dead and broken because you want to maintain your sense of victory over an Expert that is anything but.
Their attempt to make expert npcs harder has instead made the novice npcs impossible for starting players to beat. Thanks for that.
I wouldn't know because I don't play Novice, but if that is true then it's a separate issue from what this post is about. I do think Tribute could use a rebalance across all difficulty levels in order to better suit all players, but that includes people who have a lot of experience with the game and want a real challenge. We can all have a good time if ZOS handles this properly.
It’s not a separate issue. Seems they buffed the Novice npcs instead of the Expert ones.
I understand, but this post is exclusively about increasing the difficulty of Expert-level NPCs. It is not concerned with Novice NPCs.
Good grief, I agree with you. Why are we arguing?0