Attention ZOS: what MYM tells us about the state of PvP

Theignson

Everyone notices that PvP is packed during MyM and then becomes a ghost town (1 bar last night on EP GH NA). Why is that?
ESO is an economy. Players are the "workers" and ZOS the owners. We "work" and get paid with rewards: loot, money (AP in PvP) and titles. Clearly the titles and the campaign victory no longer motivates players to PvP.
However, simply doubling the pay (AP per action) massively increased demand for the supply of "jobs" (slots in PvP).
The message is clear: if you want to boost PvP participation, increase the rewards to players just as in MyM. The "pay" for PP "jobs" is too low. The rewards are not sufficient to boost demand for the supply of PvP slots.
You could either make the AP gain of MyM permanent or otherwise boost the rewards.

MreeBiPolar

It is not the actual amount of AP gained, but the word "double" that makes people rush in. You increase it, you will get it bounce back to the baseline in a month if not a week.

(That, and event drops.)

OBJnoob

Something needs to be done for sure.

I'm not sure how much increasing "pay" will bring new players to be honest I think they mostly just do it for the event tickets.

I think they need to tie Cyrodiil into the rest of the game somehow.

Like if there was a "trials gear vendor" or something where you could buy trial gear, non perfect I suppose, with AP. I think that might draw some folks.

Or if there was a special dungeon that you can only do when your alliance has Emp.

These are just random thoughts from someone on lunch break... But something like that.

GooGa592

Theignson wrote: »

Everyone notices that PvP is packed during MyM and then becomes a ghost town (1 bar last night on EP GH NA). Why is that?
ESO is an economy. Players are the "workers" and ZOS the owners. We "work" and get paid with rewards: loot, money (AP in PvP) and titles. Clearly the titles and the campaign victory no longer motivates players to PvP.
However, simply doubling the pay (AP per action) massively increased demand for the supply of "jobs" (slots in PvP).
The message is clear: if you want to boost PvP participation, increase the rewards to players just as in MyM. The "pay" for PP "jobs" is too low. The rewards are not sufficient to boost demand for the supply of PvP slots.
You could either make the AP gain of MyM permanent or otherwise boost the rewards.

If ZOS was interested in increasing PvP participation they'd increase the population caps and go back to 24 man group size; they'd do what it takes to make cyrodiil perform like it used to.

markulrich1966

rewards, yes, but especially the added server-resources, making cyro actually playable during WSM.

Comes somewhat late though, xbox EU had 1 bar most of the time for AD and EP, while DC had 2-3 bars. EU has dropped dramatically since faction lock was introduced. Once a faction gets an early lead, it is clear that this will not change until end of campaign. Gameplay is not dynamic, but plain boring, mainly defending the few home-keeps against the currently leading faction.
Xbox NA is much better, more players, more dynamic, still fun to play.

Theignson

During MyM we had battles like the old days. Instead of one faction poplocked and others 1-2 bars, numbers were pretty equal, and we had great keep battles (lasting an hour!) which is a game experience unique to ESO. I found it great fun.

So depressing after seeing all those players to log in last night and see my faction (EP on GH NA) at 1 bar.

So just some ideas to boost participation

Reverb

Your entire premise is that zeni wants to boost pvp participation. What have you seen that makes you think that?

tomofhyrule

Remember also that, while ESO was first advertised (back in 2014!) to have PvP and Cyrodiil as the absolute endgame, they have pivoted over time because of the simple fact that there are a lot of TES fans who wanted 'Skyrim with Friends' and do not want 'PvP MMO.' That's one of the main reasons that there's been a shift in ESO's focus over the past 9 years - the majority of the fanbase is just not interested in PvP.

That's not to say there isn't a faction of the playerbase that likes PvP (or only plays PvP). But they found much more success in catering to the PvE and casual crowd.

You're also discounting the normal 'event slump' that happens after events end. Every one, no matter which zone it's in, experiences a massive drop-off in players once the event ends because all of the people who came in for the event are burned out a bit and want a change of scenery. Perhaps it'd be better to look at the population in two months to make that argument after the population has stabilized. In addition, we had two PvP events a month apart, and even players who enjoy PvP were commenting that they were not going as hard on the second one since they were still a bit saturated from the first a month ago.

Now I do think PvP should get something after all this time. It'd have been easy enough to add a new BG map with every Dungeon DLC if they just reused assets (like they did for the Fang Lair one). But again, it's probably easier to convert a PvPer from a different MMO into an ESO PvPer than it is to convert an ESO PvEr to an ESO PvPer since there is a large section of the ESO playerbase that will not, under any circumstances set foot in any PvP area. As such, anything they did for ESO PvP would need to somehow not reduce the current PvP playerbase any more than it is - after all, aren't BG queues long enough?

The best thing they could add would be ranked duels. Let players queue, use the (already made! And only used to kill the pig during the Jester's fest!) Hammerdeath arena as the map, and have rankings like the ToT leaderboards. That way you're really only pulling a handful of players out of the rest of PvP at a time and you're giving players what they want - something that's exclusively a player fighting another player.
(and as a bonus, that'll also stop a lot of battle/effect spam in cities and around the Wayrest undaunted enclave since duellists would have a place to go)

Sarannah

You could triple the rewards, and still noone would want to PvP. Practically all players only went there for the tickets, while avoiding PvP. So changing the rewards outside of MYM would only help those who always PvP to get better rewards, which should not happen.

And PvP itself is the reason noone wants to PvP. Most players don't want a high-stress and frustrating experience as an activity that is supposed to be 'fun'. As long as PvP isn't aimed at PvE players, it is going to keep declining.

Tornaad

For me, when I started playing ESO, I hated everything and anything to do with MMO's and only settled on playing ESO because after 5 years of playing nothing but Skyrim, I needed something new to play but was not ready to leave Tamriel.
Initially, when I picked up ESO, it was with the intention of dropping it like a bad habit when Elder Scrolls 6 came out. Now, it has a place in my heart right alongside Morrowind (my first Elder Scrolls game), Oblivion, and Skyrim. And when Elder Scrolls 6 finally does come out, it will be the first time since a few years after Oblivion came out that I will have tried to play more than 1 game at a time.

I recently completed a no death Vet Maelstrom run, and now have my heart set on Emperor because it would be awesome to get that with my main. So, yes, titles still motivate people.

Yes, I played PVP more than I normally do during the event, and the reason was because of the tickets, not the AP or anything else like that.

VaranisArano

As a PVPer, I think ZOS is just fine with most players casually heading to PVP twice a year.

You get some people who are only there for event tickets and they get out. They won't come for double AP.

Of the group who comes for the double AP/double Tel Var, you might get some of them back for Weekend events, if ZOS borrowed that model from Battlegrounds. You probably won't get all of them at once. Nor would you get the extra campaigns or extra server resources that ZOS puts in for Mayhem.

Holycannoli

OBJnoob wrote: »

Or if there was a special dungeon that you can only do when your alliance has Emp.

That used to be Imperial City. You could only enter if your alliance controlled the inner circle of keeps. You went in and did as much PvE as you could before your alliance lost control of the entrance, and you'd PvP the current occupiers out because they couldn't respawn inside without control. If they died they were kicked out.

Theoretically keep control would continually change and thus access to IC. Anyone in IC counted toward your alliance's population so when your alliance had access Cyrodiil would be underpopulated. You had effectively a limited time to farm before getting kicked out.

It was designed after DAOC's Darkness Falls. That dungeon worked great in that game. When your realm had access to it people would flock to it, leaving the frontier keeps that controlled access vulnerable for another realm to capture and gain control of access, and the cycle would continue. You'd get kicked out, go back and capture keeps, enter, lose control, get PvP killed and kicked out, go back and capture keeps, etc. etc. The dungeon offered really good rewards for the danger and limited time you had so it was really popular. It worked great.

Anyway, OP is right in that current PvP does not offer enough rewards for people to participate. The Deadly set is currently great because of arcanists but in general there's nothing really meta in PvP rewards for anything but PvP content, so why bother? That's what most players seem to think. When there are rewards from MyM people flock to Cyrodiil and IC. Normal rewards need to be increased.

SeaGtGruff

WSM2 seemed less populated than WSM1 was, but that might just be due to the hours when I was able to log in. Personally, I enjoyed the event a lot, although perhaps the streamer (Deltia?) who people said had recommended delaying WSM2 until later in the year was correct about players being a bit burned out after WSM1.

Anyway, the problem with increasing the rewards is that once the increased rewards become "the new norm," the people who are attracted by increased rewards would probably still go away eventually. Also, the rewards during WSM would then need to be increased even more. In order for a limited-time event to be "rewarding," it needs to offer some kinds of rewards which are not given out all the time.

I suspect the main reason populations in Cyrodiil and the Imperial City decrease after WSM ends is because players are lured by the promise of larger populations during WSM. That sort of sounds like it doesn't make any sense, but unfortunately that's the way human nature works a lot of the time. If people think there are going to be a lot of people somewhere, a lot of people are going to want to go there so they can be around all the other people. There are also some people who will stay away from places they normally frequent because they've heard that a lot of people are going to be there for one reason or other.

As far as what it is that lures the "I'm just here for the event" players to Cyrodiil and the Imperial City, increased AP, TV, and XP rewards are certainly part of it, but I think the event tickets, event coffers, and whatever limited-time items can drop inside the event coffers are probably the greatest lure. Those things lure in PvE players who are easier pickings for PvP players, which lures in PvP players who prefer easier pickings, which lures in PvP players who relish PvP fights against large PvP crowds.

zaria

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

It is not the actual amount of AP gained, but the word "double" that makes people rush in. You increase it, you will get it bounce back to the baseline in a month if not a week.

(That, and event drops.)

Agree, its like an huge sale, you will get more sales and event tickets but they are fast to get.
Also you get lots of fights
Now doubling AP gain would make PvP more profitable so you will get more players but not more than +20% I think.

jaws343

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Personally, I enjoyed the event a lot, although perhaps the streamer (Deltia?) who people said had recommended delaying WSM2 until later in the year was correct about players being a bit burned out after WSM1.

I think burn out is a likely cause for population drop after the event too. People just spent 4 of the last 8 weeks PVPing. If they weren't already burnt out by the second event, they surely were by the end of it.

Lazarus_Rising

AP is not the motivation and i do not think it will do a lot really. It is the special rewards. You need to be able to earn motifs, outfit styles, monster helmets, transmogs, polymorphs. That makes people come to cyrodiil. Give them meaningful achievments tied to awesome rewards. People will join then.

Grave Grasp Outfit made me actually start playing the game again and it is tied to pvp and imperial city... sadly tho it was implemented poorly and forced to do more pve than pvp.

RaikaNA

GooGa592 wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

Everyone notices that PvP is packed during MyM and then becomes a ghost town (1 bar last night on EP GH NA). Why is that?
ESO is an economy. Players are the "workers" and ZOS the owners. We "work" and get paid with rewards: loot, money (AP in PvP) and titles. Clearly the titles and the campaign victory no longer motivates players to PvP.
However, simply doubling the pay (AP per action) massively increased demand for the supply of "jobs" (slots in PvP).
The message is clear: if you want to boost PvP participation, increase the rewards to players just as in MyM. The "pay" for PP "jobs" is too low. The rewards are not sufficient to boost demand for the supply of PvP slots.
You could either make the AP gain of MyM permanent or otherwise boost the rewards.

If ZOS was interested in increasing PvP participation they'd increase the population caps and go back to 24 man group size; they'd do what it takes to make cyrodiil perform like it used to.

Even if ZOS did return the 24-man group size... who's going to lead those groups? Crown phobia is real in Cyrodiil... either that or people prefer playing "solo", and would rather "zerg surf" rather than join a group. As of right now, there is no reward for being crown.. you don't get extra bonuses or AP. Hell you don't even get anything for running the scroll.. There's a severe shortage of rewards being given in Cyrodill. I do think ZOS needs to bring some incentives by giving us a better reward system... as it is the Rewards for the Worthy that literately spams up your mail that is subpar at best.

CGPsaint

Between crashing everyone 5-10 minutes and not being able to mount up, I have zero motivation to participate in PvP until something is done to fix performance in Cyrodiil. You can quadruple the rewards and it still wouldn't be worth the frustration.

reazea

Sarannah wrote: »

You could triple the rewards, and still noone would want to PvP. Practically all players only went there for the tickets, while avoiding PvP. So changing the rewards outside of MYM would only help those who always PvP to get better rewards, which should not happen.

And PvP itself is the reason noone wants to PvP. Most players don't want a high-stress and frustrating experience as an activity that is supposed to be 'fun'. As long as PvP isn't aimed at PvE players, it is going to keep declining.

I find your assessment to be extremely off base. PvP is the best part of ESO by far. It's the combat system in ESO that makes ESO great and unique.

the1andonlyskwex

I think FOMO about event tickets (and other limited time event-specific rewards) and the increased population that comes with people farming them are a much bigger draw than double drops.

Unfortunately, it's hard to create permanent FOMO without constantly investing in new content/rewards, which I seriously doubt ZOS particularly wants to do for PvP, especially when they can just put those same rewards into (much more lucrative) crown crates instead.

OBJnoob

Holycannoli wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Or if there was a special dungeon that you can only do when your alliance has Emp.

That used to be Imperial City. You could only enter if your alliance controlled the inner circle of keeps. You went in and did as much PvE as you could before your alliance lost control of the entrance, and you'd PvP the current occupiers out because they couldn't respawn inside without control. If they died they were kicked out.

Theoretically keep control would continually change and thus access to IC. Anyone in IC counted toward your alliance's population so when your alliance had access Cyrodiil would be underpopulated. You had effectively a limited time to farm before getting kicked out.

It was designed after DAOC's Darkness Falls. That dungeon worked great in that game. When your realm had access to it people would flock to it, leaving the frontier keeps that controlled access vulnerable for another realm to capture and gain control of access, and the cycle would continue. You'd get kicked out, go back and capture keeps, enter, lose control, get PvP killed and kicked out, go back and capture keeps, etc. etc. The dungeon offered really good rewards for the danger and limited time you had so it was really popular. It worked great.

Anyway, OP is right in that current PvP does not offer enough rewards for people to participate. The Deadly set is currently great because of arcanists but in general there's nothing really meta in PvP rewards for anything but PvP content, so why bother? That's what most players seem to think. When there are rewards from MyM people flock to Cyrodiil and IC. Normal rewards need to be increased.

Yes, I remember that about Imperial City. But that's not quite what I mean, because people that don't really like cyrodiil probably don't really like IC either.

I mean more like if Imperial City Prison, the dungeon, could only be done when your alliance has Emp. Or when they're currently in first place.

Which I know would be hard to pull off but I think something like this is honestly the only answer. First problem-- this dungeon could only be done with a group of players of the same alliance. Second problem-- you'd need one dungeon per campaign.

It'd be really cool though, and might actually work.

And making a trials gear vendor would work too I think. I don't think the PvE crowd would appreciate it very much, but if it were only the non-perfected version I don't really see the harm.

haelgaan

MYM is great, i can spend less time doing PVP to get to tier 1 for the transmutes, and get extra loot boxes.

sure, make the 2x AP permanent, so that i can permanently do less PVP and still get T1 rewards. love it.

illusiouk

They could activate the Scroll like once a month, for seven days that would be a start. They do need to fix that combat bug because it is soul destroying when you can't mount etc. Even killing npc's most times won't get rid of it.

Belegnole

It's not the AP. It's the other things that even PvE players are chasing.

ArchMikem

The numbers you see in Campaign during prime time NOT during Midyear Mayhem, is the extent of the player population that actually wants to PvP. The rush of population you see during the event are not more PvPers that are enticed by more AP, they're all PvErs that are coming in because it's an Event. They want tickets and the boxes, that's it. They don't stay after the event ends because they hate feeling like lambs being farmed by the PvP tryhards who spend all their time in the gamemode. It's not that they don't want to learn how to PvP, the skill and power divide is so enormous it makes you feel like they can't learn, they don't understand how to even begin and when asked in chat, PvPers usually tend to reply with "look it up scrub, git gud." Sure, respond to that by saying end game PvE players treat people the same way, but this competitive childish attitude permeates PvP much more strongly.

If you want PvE players to stay more often, PvP needs to provide loot that has actual value to them outside Cyro, at least.

propertyOfUndefined

Previous MMO I played had ranked pvp seasons and rewards that were purely aesthetic, but everybody coveted because they made your character really stand out, couldn't be acquired anywhere else, and were extremely rare. Nothing close to this in ESO, unfortunately. What I find funny is how when ESO was first announced, all of my guildmates from that other game were excited because it seemed pvp would be front and center -- not to mention the emperor mechanic seemed cool as hell!

Agree that there should be better rewards for pvp... I do it because it's the only game mode I find to be engaging, but there are days where I ask myself why I even bother when there's nothing to aspire for.

CGPsaint

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

Previous MMO I played had ranked pvp seasons and rewards that were purely aesthetic, but everybody coveted because they made your character really stand out, couldn't be acquired anywhere else, and were extremely rare. Nothing close to this in ESO, unfortunately. What I find funny is how when ESO was first announced, all of my guildmates from that other game were excited because it seemed pvp would be front and center -- not to mention the emperor mechanic seemed cool as hell!

Agree that there should be better rewards for pvp... I do it because it's the only game mode I find to be engaging, but there are days where I ask myself why I even bother when there's nothing to aspire for.

The vast majority of the rewards would be earned by the same players month after month, and getting Emp is pretty much a moot point considering it's the same people each month who top the leaderboards and are in line for Emp. This wouldn't provide much of an incentive to the average player. The primary issue is that PvP has been utterly neglected in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, and Battlegrounds. Cyrodiil is in dire need of improved performance, and all three could use some new content to freshen up the experience.

gamerguy757

This is my own opinion.
Cyrodiil is a GREAT PvP opportunity lore wise, however the complete disregard for server stability makes it a moot point. The nonstop grind for mount speed and running all over the map to repeat the same thing gets old fast.
Hence entering Battlegrounds.
BGs are one of favorite thing about PvP. No crazy huge map, no giant zergs, just a “call of duty” fight battling it out and playing objective games.
I think that ZoS should focus more PvP resources on improving BGs and creating more game modes. I think people like BGs more than they enjoy Cyro. Even IC is better.
Here ZoS I’ll help you get started:
Lone Wolf - Search out the other team and kill enemy players, but the closer you are to your team, the less damage and more debuffs you suffer.

Ragnarok0130

Sarannah wrote: »

You could triple the rewards, and still noone would want to PvP. Practically all players only went there for the tickets, while avoiding PvP. So changing the rewards outside of MYM would only help those who always PvP to get better rewards, which should not happen.

And PvP itself is the reason noone wants to PvP. Most players don't want a high-stress and frustrating experience as an activity that is supposed to be 'fun'. As long as PvP isn't aimed at PvE players, it is going to keep declining.

Wow, just wow. I'd like every ESO activity to have a better reward structure whether it's PVP, Raiding, dungoneering, or overland activites. ESO has a horrible deficit when it comes to its content reward system compared to other MMOs and ZoS needs to take that issue seriously instead of focusing on monetizing everything that the players want. PVPers getting better rewards doesn't adversely affect your content or rewards and makes us all happier ESO players. Instead of saying "I hope it doesn't rain so my neighbor's yard doesn't look better than mine" lets advocate for better rewards across the board for the player base.

Regarding your PVP comments, as a raider who only occasionally dabbles in PVP - ie a Telvar ATM for real PVPers - the people who participate in PVP find the teamwork, stress, and strategy of PVP to be fun and fulfilling just like I enjoy the teamwork, strategy and stress of a hard mode trial. Just because a large part of the playerbase chooses not to engage in an activity doesn't mean it doesn't deserve support and attention from the neglectful parent known as ZoS. I also think the declining numbers in PVP are directly attributable to the lack of new content and attention from ZoS. So making PVP appealing to PVE players isn't the solution to declining PVP numbers; making PVP more appealing to those who want a PVP experience and supporting that experience with new content is the answer to declining PVP numbers.

chessalavakia_ESO

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

You could triple the rewards, and still noone would want to PvP. Practically all players only went there for the tickets, while avoiding PvP. So changing the rewards outside of MYM would only help those who always PvP to get better rewards, which should not happen.

And PvP itself is the reason noone wants to PvP. Most players don't want a high-stress and frustrating experience as an activity that is supposed to be 'fun'. As long as PvP isn't aimed at PvE players, it is going to keep declining.

Wow, just wow. I'd like every ESO activity to have a better reward structure whether it's PVP, Raiding, dungoneering, or overland activites. ESO has a horrible deficit when it comes to its content reward system compared to other MMOs and ZoS needs to take that issue seriously instead of focusing on monetizing everything that the players want. PVPers getting better rewards doesn't adversely affect your content or rewards and makes us all happier ESO players. Instead of saying "I hope it doesn't rain so my neighbor's yard doesn't look better than mine" lets advocate for better rewards across the board for the player base.

Regarding your PVP comments, as a raider who only occasionally dabbles in PVP - ie a Telvar ATM for real PVPers - the people who participate in PVP find the teamwork, stress, and strategy of PVP to be fun and fulfilling just like I enjoy the teamwork, strategy and stress of a hard mode trial. Just because a large part of the playerbase chooses not to engage in an activity doesn't mean it doesn't deserve support and attention from the neglectful parent known as ZoS. I also think the declining numbers in PVP are directly attributable to the lack of new content and attention from ZoS. So making PVP appealing to PVE players isn't the solution to declining PVP numbers; making PVP more appealing to those who want a PVP experience and supporting that experience with new content is the answer to declining PVP numbers.

Developers have finite resources.

The more resources you spend on one section, the less you have to spend on others.

You'll notice that this year portions of the content release schedule changed from last year to make room for other items.

SimonThesis

They've needed to up the rewards for winning for a long time now, a lot of people no matter care who wins or loses the campaigns anymore. They also need to incentivize hitting the dominant faction and not have the 2 strongest always ganging up on the weakest for easier ap/fights.