Are dedicated tanks needed for base game normal dungeons?

ixthUA

I got into a group, where at the end of the run (before final boss) fake healer (DD) complained there is no dedicated tank and group is in trouble, which was new for me. I did many runs of normal base dungeons as 4 DDs and they were fast and efficient.

Reverb

Regardless of the outcome of this poll, don’t use it to justify queueing as a fake tank without the explicit agreement from your group. Picking a tank role to slip the DPS queue is a lousy thing to do to the dps you get paired with who picked the right role and waited it out.

ixthUA

40k hp, 30k resistances, 3 taunts, 2 damage shields (self and group) and self heal, on one bar.
6 AOE damage skills (including full breach debuff) on the other bar.
I used damaging skill bar, as i usually do in base game normal dungeons.

UntilValhalla13

They are not needed

You can solo normal dungeons, so you don't really need a tank whatsoever in a group.

fizl101

Surely it depends on the skill, knowledge and experience of the group.

Experienced dungeon runners who know the mechs? No

People who dont run dungeons regularly/ not highly skilled or knowledgeable on setups or mechs, yes. Also a very good place to learn tanking if other players dont run off and let the tank do their job

SkaraMinoc

They are not needed

Base game dungeons are way too easy to ever need a tank. The bosses and adds just don't do enough damage.

wilykcat

Sometimes

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Base game dungeons are way too easy to ever need a tank. The bosses and adds just don't do enough damage.

Don't let the game developers see that. They might buff the base game dungeons.

Dagoth_Rac

Sometimes

If you queued as a tank and you have taunts slotted, why not use them? You can still bar swap and lay down AOE while the bosses are taunted. The TTK of boss might be slightly slower, but probably not by much. And it is a nice courtesy for a normal dungeon, where you could be dealing with casual and inexperienced players who are not expecting or prepared for having bosses target them. TTK of boss might even be faster if those less-than-great players can just stand behind a taunted boss and hack away, instead of getting in a panic when the boss targets them.

Or, ask! At beginning of dungeon: "I can taunt and fill tank role if you want, but it might be faster if I just go full DPS in an easy dungeon like this. Which do you prefer?"

ixthUA

fizl101 wrote: »

Surely it depends on the skill, knowledge and experience of the group.

Experienced dungeon runners who know the mechs? No

People who dont run dungeons regularly/ not highly skilled or knowledgeable on setups or mechs, yes. Also a very good place to learn tanking if other players dont run off and let the tank do their job

With random people, its usually a race of running and DPS, who gets to mobs faster and does more damage to them. With 4 DDs, there is usually not enough time for enemies to do enough damage that healing and tanking would be needed.

VaranisArano

If you queue as a tank, you ought to use a taunt and stay alive. Even in a normal dungeon.

Your DDs and Healer will appreciate not having the boss in their face.

To fake tanks who dont taunt: I know, I know, your precious DPS will drop because you have to deal with the boss in your face. But that's the role you queued up for, and the alternative is inflating your own DPS parse at the expense of your groupmates. You're patting yourself on the back for doing better than they did...after you sabotaged them.

fizl101

ixthUA wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

Surely it depends on the skill, knowledge and experience of the group.

Experienced dungeon runners who know the mechs? No

People who dont run dungeons regularly/ not highly skilled or knowledgeable on setups or mechs, yes. Also a very good place to learn tanking if other players dont run off and let the tank do their job

With random people, its usually a race of running and DPS, who gets to mobs faster and does more damage to them. With 4 DDs, there is usually not enough time for enemies to do enough damage that healing and tanking would be needed.

That would be experienced/ knowledgeable people then. Not everyone has the skills, knowledge or experience

ixthUA

VaranisArano wrote: »

If you queue as a tank, you ought to use a taunt and stay alive. Even in a normal dungeon.

Your DDs and Healer will appreciate not having the boss in their face.

To fake tanks who dont taunt: I know, I know, your precious DPS will drop because you have to deal with the boss in your face. But that's the role you queued up for, and the alternative is inflating your own DPS parse at the expense of your groupmates. You're patting yourself on the back for doing better than they did...after you sabotaged them.

DDs and fake healer usually run ahead of tank and pull everything on them, including bosses. To me it looks like they dont care who will tank it. In my experience, unless i get 3 total newbies in team, someone (usually everyone) will run ahead.

ixthUA

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

If you queued as a tank and you have taunts slotted, why not use them? You can still bar swap and lay down AOE while the bosses are taunted. The TTK of boss might be slightly slower, but probably not by much. And it is a nice courtesy for a normal dungeon, where you could be dealing with casual and inexperienced players who are not expecting or prepared for having bosses target them. TTK of boss might even be faster if those less-than-great players can just stand behind a taunted boss and hack away, instead of getting in a panic when the boss targets them.

Or, ask! At beginning of dungeon: "I can taunt and fill tank role if you want, but it might be faster if I just go full DPS in an easy dungeon like this. Which do you prefer?"

Bosses usually die within 10 sec. I have a dedicated tanking skill bar for tougher bosses, but if boss is easy, why bother, especially if it was taunted by someone else and has like only half of hp bar remaining?

Mesite

Sometimes

ixthUA wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

If you queue as a tank, you ought to use a taunt and stay alive. Even in a normal dungeon.

DDs and fake healer usually run ahead of tank and pull everything on them, including bosses. To me it looks like they dont care who will tank it. In my experience, unless i get 3 total newbies in team, someone (usually everyone) will run ahead.

I've been in dungeons where we couldn't keep up with the tank cos they were only interested in finishing the dungeon quickly, probably on their daily random.

Sorry, text appeared on the quote

chessalavakia_ESO

They are needed

If you want people to learn the roles and how to play with them players need to actually play the roles somewhat.

Mesite

Sometimes

I tanked once at the start of Arx Corinnium and the monsters were all easy so I just decided to wipe the monsters out while I was waiting for the other group members to get their act together. I was called a fake tank - but I could see why they thought that.

Nestor

ixthUA wrote: »

40k hp, 30k resistances, 3 taunts, 2 damage shields (self and group) and self heal, on one bar.
6 AOE damage skills (including full breach debuff) on the other bar.
I used damaging skill bar, as i usually do in base game normal dungeons.

In other words, you are a Fake Tank.....

If you queue for the Role, do the Role.

ixthUA

Nestor wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

40k hp, 30k resistances, 3 taunts, 2 damage shields (self and group) and self heal, on one bar.
6 AOE damage skills (including full breach debuff) on the other bar.
I used damaging skill bar, as i usually do in base game normal dungeons.

In other words, you are a Fake Tank.....

If you queue for the Role, do the Role.

Tanks need a DD bar, in case they are separated from the group, group's DPS is too low, or group already has a tank.

SacredNym

They are not needed

Even DLC Normals don't really benefit from having an actual tank around. An HA Oakensoul build with the Undaunted taunt slotted is more than enough.

VaranisArano

ixthUA wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

If you queue as a tank, you ought to use a taunt and stay alive. Even in a normal dungeon.

Your DDs and Healer will appreciate not having the boss in their face.

To fake tanks who dont taunt: I know, I know, your precious DPS will drop because you have to deal with the boss in your face. But that's the role you queued up for, and the alternative is inflating your own DPS parse at the expense of your groupmates. You're patting yourself on the back for doing better than they did...after you sabotaged them.

DDs and fake healer usually run ahead of tank and pull everything on them, including bosses. To me it looks like they dont care who will tank it. In my experience, unless i get 3 total newbies in team, someone (usually everyone) will run ahead.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Be prepared to play the role you queued up for properly. Keep in mind that when you play a fake tank who doesn't hold aggro with a taunt, you're actually reinforcing the behavior of DDs and healers who rush ahead. If the Fake Tank isn't going to taunt, why should they wait on just another DD? Even I build healers who're capable of facetanking because fake tanks who refuse to taunt and think nothing of me picking up their slack are ubiquitous in normal dungeons.

Groups who learn that fights usually go smoother when the boss is anchored more or less in place by a taunting tank (as opposed to the boss running out of DOTs to attack whoever they please) are more likely to follow a tank who's doing their job.


Since my tanks use a taunt, my rule of thumb is that if they rush ahead, they can tank it until I get there.

If they can handle it, cool, we got a head start on the boss.

If they can't handle it, maybe they'll learn from experience when I arrive and proceed to properly tank boss aggro and stay alive. And if they don't learn, at least I get the entertainment of watching them fail before proving that I'm competent at the role I queued up for. Rezzing a dead repeat rusher while tanking the boss with no problems is like a slice of delicious schadenfreude pie.

Braffin

They are not needed

Nope, a tank isn't needed in the veteran version of base game dungeons either, it's just convenient to have one around.

Soarora

Sometimes

The thing with queue is that the group is random. If the DPS are really, really bad so that the bosses don’t just burn to a crisp then it’s beneficial to at least have someone taunt. Also, an underrated benefit to tanks is chain.

It becomes harder to have no tank in vet, even fungal grotto 1. It’s still possible to have no tank but there’s going to be some dying unless someone is taunting and skilled in fake tanking the bosses in question.

Braffin

They are not needed

Soarora wrote: »

The thing with queue is that the group is random. If the DPS are really, really bad so that the bosses don’t just burn to a crisp then it’s beneficial to at least have someone taunt. Also, an underrated benefit to tanks is chain.

It becomes harder to have no tank in vet, even fungal grotto 1. It’s still possible to have no tank but there’s going to be some dying unless someone is taunting and skilled in fake tanking the bosses in question.

Sure, it gets a bit harder on vet. But it's still easily doable to run fg1 no-death in a group of 4 dds. I'm sure you've done that several times.

Thing is, while it's of course always dependent of the actual group, the "need" for a dedicated tank is set by content. In eso I don't know any activity outside vet trials which make them really necessary, if the players are skilled enough.

Nestor

ixthUA wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

40k hp, 30k resistances, 3 taunts, 2 damage shields (self and group) and self heal, on one bar.
6 AOE damage skills (including full breach debuff) on the other bar.
I used damaging skill bar, as i usually do in base game normal dungeons.

In other words, you are a Fake Tank.....

If you queue for the Role, do the Role.

Tanks need a DD bar, in case they are separated from the group, group's DPS is too low, or group already has a tank.

You stated in the post I quoted that you do not play as a Tank.

ixthUA

I tried 1 bar (full tanking) tank today and it was a bad experience. I totally depend on my group to kill things, if i get separated (which happens a lot because people just rush to the boss) i cannot kill enemies on my own. If this is what community expects from tanks, no wonder there are like 500 times more DDs than tanks.

Amottica

From when I used to endure the GF to find a group I would find groups where their damage output and damage taken basically required them to have a customary trinity group, even for many normal dungeons. It is a big reason why I do not use the GF to find groups any longer.

As others have said, if you queue for a role you should do that role. If that is a problem then forming one's own group is the best course of action and it is easy enough to do.

Soarora

Sometimes

Braffin wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

The thing with queue is that the group is random. If the DPS are really, really bad so that the bosses don’t just burn to a crisp then it’s beneficial to at least have someone taunt. Also, an underrated benefit to tanks is chain.

It becomes harder to have no tank in vet, even fungal grotto 1. It’s still possible to have no tank but there’s going to be some dying unless someone is taunting and skilled in fake tanking the bosses in question.

Sure, it gets a bit harder on vet. But it's still easily doable to run fg1 no-death in a group of 4 dds. I'm sure you've done that several times.

Thing is, while it's of course always dependent of the actual group, the "need" for a dedicated tank is set by content. In eso I don't know any activity outside vet trials which make them really necessary, if the players are skilled enough.

Haha, I've been the fake tank in the situation in question... multiple times. I find it genuinely challenging to fake tank Kra'gh because you can't just hold block and win. But yeah, I mean, there's 4dps Scalecaller trifectas... if there's a will (and enough DPS to full burn), there's a way.

ixthUA wrote: »

I tried 1 bar (full tanking) tank today and it was a bad experience. I totally depend on my group to kill things, if i get separated (which happens a lot because people just rush to the boss) i cannot kill enemies on my own. If this is what community expects from tanks, no wonder there are like 500 times more DDs than tanks.

Tanks should be the one leading the group, anyone rushing ahead of the tank is breaching etiquette and actually making the dungeon a lot more painful than it needs to be (after all, the tank is the one chaining and debuffing the trash so it can be AoE'd down...). This happens a lot in non-dlc to the point that I have quit pugging non-dlc entirely, and often on normal too (which I don't do also for that reason). Vet DLC it doesn't happen as much and when it does you can laugh as you let them die over, and over, and over again.

Braffin

They are not needed

Soarora wrote: »

Haha, I've been the fake tank in the situation in question... multiple times. I find it genuinely challenging to fake tank Kra'gh because you can't just hold block and win. But yeah, I mean, there's 4dps Scalecaller trifectas... if there's a will (and enough DPS to full burn), there's a way.

Yeah, he can be annoying. Just two days ago I was asked by two members of my guild for better story experience if I could help them out with him. It will only take 3 minutes, they said.

While I made my way down the waterfall, wondering why we are only a group of three, my screen went white (they discovered the scroll) and I accidentally pulled the mudcrabs they left alone (thankfully not the big one) while they attacked the boss before I arrived. Of course there was no time to slot inner fire either, so we had to manage random aggro.

Nonetheless we killed him off quite quickly given the circumstances and only one of us died in AoE once.

Both of them were casual players btw and didn't do vet fg1 before. Was really a fun experience and we had a good laugh afterwards.

ixthUA

Soarora wrote: »

Tanks should be the one leading the group, anyone rushing ahead of the tank is breaching etiquette and actually making the dungeon a lot more painful than it needs to be (after all, the tank is the one chaining and debuffing the trash so it can be AoE'd down...). This happens a lot in non-dlc to the point that I have quit pugging non-dlc entirely, and often on normal too (which I don't do also for that reason). Vet DLC it doesn't happen as much and when it does you can laugh as you let them die over, and over, and over again.

In normal base game dungeons, i don't see a reason for tank to lead the group. Its usually the most agitated DD who rushes ahead to the first non-skippable boss and kills everything. And there is not much to do for pure tank during boss fight, which usually lasts for 5-10 sec.
A real healer can buff team weapon/spell damage by 1k for the duration of the run, but normal dungeons are so easy it makes no difference, so healer just deals damage.
Tried dedicated tanking today. Other than doing no damage and being unable to kill the weakest mob on my own, no difference.
Team rushed ahead, skipped a ton of adds that slowed me down when i was trying to catch up. Burned bosses in seconds, i barely had time to taunt them (which was pointless in the end). Whole run took less than 5 min.
Community-preferred tank: does nothing useful in a dungeons, just like a healer who only heals.

Just something to think about: random normal dungeon (no dlc) average queue time for tank is instant (lets say 1 sec), for DD same queue is 300-600 sec. And when DDs finally get into the dungeon - most of the time tank is fake (another DD). So waiting 5-10 minutes in queue is better than instant queue and 3-5 min long dungeon run? I wonder why.

Braffin

They are not needed

ixthUA wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Tanks should be the one leading the group, anyone rushing ahead of the tank is breaching etiquette and actually making the dungeon a lot more painful than it needs to be (after all, the tank is the one chaining and debuffing the trash so it can be AoE'd down...). This happens a lot in non-dlc to the point that I have quit pugging non-dlc entirely, and often on normal too (which I don't do also for that reason). Vet DLC it doesn't happen as much and when it does you can laugh as you let them die over, and over, and over again.

In normal base game dungeons, i don't see a reason for tank to lead the group. Its usually the most agitated DD who rushes ahead to the first non-skippable boss and kills everything. And there is not much to do for pure tank during boss fight, which usually lasts for 5-10 sec.
A real healer can buff team weapon/spell damage by 1k for the duration of the run, but normal dungeons are so easy it makes no difference, so healer just deals damage.
Tried dedicated tanking today. Other than doing no damage and being unable to kill the weakest mob on my own, no difference.
Team rushed ahead, skipped a ton of adds that slowed me down when i was trying to catch up. Burned bosses in seconds, i barely had time to taunt them (which was pointless in the end). Whole run took less than 5 min.
Community-preferred tank: does nothing useful in a dungeons, just like a healer who only heals.

Just something to think about: random normal dungeon (no dlc) average queue time for tank is instant (lets say 1 sec), for DD same queue is 300-600 sec. And when DDs finally get into the dungeon - most of the time tank is fake (another DD). So waiting 5-10 minutes in queue is better than instant queue and 3-5 min long dungeon run? I wonder why.

Honestly, tanks (and healers) are usually treated bad in low difficulty random groups in every mmo I know. If things go well, the dds pat themselves on the shoulder for doing a good job while outright ignoring the fun of their teammates (even if their dps is below the tank's), if things go south it's either "bad heal" (especially after one-shots) or "bad tank". You're basically an extended npc in there.

You have to options now:
- Learn to live with this behaviour.
- Join a guild of likeminded players and do premade runs, as most other tanks do. In the end there is a reason for the length of the queue.

VaranisArano

ixthUA wrote: »

I tried 1 bar (full tanking) tank today and it was a bad experience. I totally depend on my group to kill things, if i get separated (which happens a lot because people just rush to the boss) i cannot kill enemies on my own. If this is what community expects from tanks, no wonder there are like 500 times more DDs than tanks.

Have you tried just following them? You're a "full tank", you should be able to soak some sideswipes from mobs on your way to the boss.

And as I said, if you don't the experience of DDs rushing ahead, blame the people who taught them to disregard the tank in the first place: fake tanks.

Why wait on someone who's probably not going to taunt anyway? That's what the proliferation of fake tanks taught everyone.