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Animation Canceling

Libonotus
Libonotus
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Hi,

Just wondering if you 100% absolutely need to be able to animation cancel in order to do good DPS in PvE? I suck at animation canceling no matter how many time I practice I either forget to block cancel, forget the rotation or forget to bar swap cancel. So I’m just wondering if animation canceling is a must for PvE
Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 9, 2023 6:56PM
  • Dekibra
    Dekibra
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    I'd say it depends on the content you do.
    Normal stuff (overland, story, normal dungeons even) doesn't require it but the harder the content the more helpful/crucial the canceling becomes...
    PC-EU
  • Libonotus
    Libonotus
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    Dekibra wrote: »
    I'd say it depends on the content you do.
    Normal stuff (overland, story, normal dungeons even) doesn't require it but the harder the content the more helpful/crucial the canceling becomes...

    But a global cool-down is a global cool-down surely it’s not able to be bypassed by canceling the animation
  • Libonotus
    Libonotus
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    fred4 wrote: »
    Like Dekibra says, it depends on what you want to do. In order of ascending difficulty:

    Questing
    Delves and public dungeons
    4 person normal dungeons
    12 person normal trials
    Normal arenas
    World bosses

    4 person veteran dungeons

    12 person veteran trials
    Veteran arenas
    PvP (hugely variable, but generally hard)
    Recent 4 person vet hard mode dungeons
    Recent 12 person vet hard mode trials

    That said, not all dungeons and trials are created equal. The newer (DLC) ones are generally harder. This creates some overlap. For example the old Craglorn vet trials are easier than some newer vet dungeons.

    The cutoff point where random groups start to fail is highlighted in bold. Below that point you can get by with not executing combat well. Above that point, not so much.

    You have a couple of options to lessen your workload:
    1. Use Oakensoul to cut down on your rotation and eliminate bar swapping.
    2. Play a (sorc) lightning staff heavy attack build using Oakensoul.
    3. Play an Arcanist, possibly with Oakensoul.
    4. Lessen the impact of bad weaving (light attack animation cancelling) with the Velothi Ur mythic, esp. as an Arcanist.
    5. Play a magicka templar, possibly with Oakensoul.
    Libonotus wrote: »
    Just wondering if you 100% absolutely need to be able to animation cancel in order to do good DPS in PvE?
    If this refers to light attack weaving, there are ways to cut back on that with a heavy attack build or Arcanist, or to eliminate the DPS impact using the new Velothi Ur mythic. That said, you still need to do some light attacks for ulti gen and, depending on build, to activate enchants.
    I suck at animation canceling no matter how many time I practice I either forget to block cancel
    Block-cancelling is rarely needed. You do not gain DPS by block-cancelling. You may gain a timing advantage in PvP, or you may block cancel to avoid a mechanic in PvE or being bursted in PvP.
    forget the rotation
    This will unfortunately limit your DPS potential quite a bit, even with an easy-mode heavy attack build. That said, the above build types have a fairly high DPS floor of 50K to 60K on a trial dummy by doing the absolute minimum.
    or forget to bar swap cancel.
    I'm not sure how you can forget exactly. If you bar swap at all, you will technically animation cancel your last ability, unless you are really slow.

    Hey do you have a build for the Sorc lightning staff heavy attack build
  • fred4
    fred4
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    Libonotus wrote: »
    Dekibra wrote: »
    I'd say it depends on the content you do.
    Normal stuff (overland, story, normal dungeons even) doesn't require it but the harder the content the more helpful/crucial the canceling becomes...

    But a global cool-down is a global cool-down surely it’s not able to be bypassed by canceling the animation
    Correct, it's not. The cooldown is 1s. However you can fit multiple things into one global cooldown.
    1. A light attack. Light (and heavy) attacks have an independent cooldown, which I belive is 0.7s.
    2. A (non-channeled) skill.
    3. A dodge roll, bash (interrupt), or bar swap. Note that block-cancelling is not technically in this category. You can flat out block-cast a non-channeled skill, holding block the entire time, albeit this inhibits the light / heavy attacks. The only instance I can think of where block-cancelling has made a difference in the past (I'm not sure it still does) is for certain skills in PvP. For example nightblade's Impale is a projectile that has a travel time. Block-cancelling that skill (used to?) eliminate that travel time, bringing the timing of Impale closer to the previously-cast attack without violating the global cooldown. In other words, while you can only cast one skill per second, block-casting a skill can affect the timing of when the attack lands. This has no impact on your average DPS, but may impact the timing of your burst to kill a player in PvP.
    PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
    PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
  • Malprave
    Malprave
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    Lightning staff heavy attack build. Stand a hundred yards away from the boss and hold one button down. Don’t even worry about the light attacks, sustain, or any of that stuff. They gave everybody access to an easy mode, use it. Why bother to do anything else.
  • fred4
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    Libonotus wrote: »
    fred4 wrote: »
    Like Dekibra says, it depends on what you want to do. In order of ascending difficulty:

    Questing
    Delves and public dungeons
    4 person normal dungeons
    12 person normal trials
    Normal arenas
    World bosses

    4 person veteran dungeons

    12 person veteran trials
    Veteran arenas
    PvP (hugely variable, but generally hard)
    Recent 4 person vet hard mode dungeons
    Recent 12 person vet hard mode trials

    That said, not all dungeons and trials are created equal. The newer (DLC) ones are generally harder. This creates some overlap. For example the old Craglorn vet trials are easier than some newer vet dungeons.

    The cutoff point where random groups start to fail is highlighted in bold. Below that point you can get by with not executing combat well. Above that point, not so much.

    You have a couple of options to lessen your workload:
    1. Use Oakensoul to cut down on your rotation and eliminate bar swapping.
    2. Play a (sorc) lightning staff heavy attack build using Oakensoul.
    3. Play an Arcanist, possibly with Oakensoul.
    4. Lessen the impact of bad weaving (light attack animation cancelling) with the Velothi Ur mythic, esp. as an Arcanist.
    5. Play a magicka templar, possibly with Oakensoul.
    Libonotus wrote: »
    Just wondering if you 100% absolutely need to be able to animation cancel in order to do good DPS in PvE?
    If this refers to light attack weaving, there are ways to cut back on that with a heavy attack build or Arcanist, or to eliminate the DPS impact using the new Velothi Ur mythic. That said, you still need to do some light attacks for ulti gen and, depending on build, to activate enchants.
    I suck at animation canceling no matter how many time I practice I either forget to block cancel
    Block-cancelling is rarely needed. You do not gain DPS by block-cancelling. You may gain a timing advantage in PvP, or you may block cancel to avoid a mechanic in PvE or being bursted in PvP.
    forget the rotation
    This will unfortunately limit your DPS potential quite a bit, even with an easy-mode heavy attack build. That said, the above build types have a fairly high DPS floor of 50K to 60K on a trial dummy by doing the absolute minimum.
    or forget to bar swap cancel.
    I'm not sure how you can forget exactly. If you bar swap at all, you will technically animation cancel your last ability, unless you are really slow.

    Hey do you have a build for the Sorc lightning staff heavy attack build
    I don't play them, so go to YouTube. That said, gear:
    • Sergeant's Mail, weapon - probably Precise lightning staff - and 2x jewelry, transmuted to Bloodthirsty. 1x Chest.
    • Noble Duelist. People will recommend Storm Master instead, but this is arguably out of date. I've seen the highest damage in a trial from a Noble Duelist build, provided you can be in melee range some of the time.
    • Oakensoul ring (Bloodthirsty). All weapon / spell damage enchants.
    • Probably Thief mundus.
    • 1x Slimecraw.
    Skills I'm not sure about. Hardened Ward for solo play. Possibly use pets and Daedric Prey.
    PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
    PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
  • Libonotus
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    Malprave wrote: »
    Lightning staff heavy attack build. Stand a hundred yards away from the boss and hold one button down. Don’t even worry about the light attacks, sustain, or any of that stuff. They gave everybody access to an easy mode, use it. Why bother to do anything else.

    Thank you for the sarcasm however there are obviously sets which boost the heavy attack damage
  • fred4
    fred4
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    Libonotus wrote: »
    Malprave wrote: »
    Lightning staff heavy attack build. Stand a hundred yards away from the boss and hold one button down. Don’t even worry about the light attacks, sustain, or any of that stuff. They gave everybody access to an easy mode, use it. Why bother to do anything else.

    Thank you for the sarcasm however there are obviously sets which boost the heavy attack damage
    The reason the above sets work, btw, is because they apply to every tick of a lightning heavy attack and the final tick does an inordinate amount of cleave (AOE) damage from the destro staff tri-focus passive.
    PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
    PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
  • Libonotus
    Libonotus
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    fred4 wrote: »
    Libonotus wrote: »
    Malprave wrote: »
    Lightning staff heavy attack build. Stand a hundred yards away from the boss and hold one button down. Don’t even worry about the light attacks, sustain, or any of that stuff. They gave everybody access to an easy mode, use it. Why bother to do anything else.

    Thank you for the sarcasm however there are obviously sets which boost the heavy attack damage
    The reason the above sets work, btw, is because they apply to every tick of a lightning heavy attack and the final tick does an inordinate amount of cleave (AOE) damage from the destro staff tri-focus passive.

    Ahh thank you can’t wait until ZoS nerfs that lol
  • fred4
    fred4
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    Libonotus wrote: »
    fred4 wrote: »
    Libonotus wrote: »
    Malprave wrote: »
    Lightning staff heavy attack build. Stand a hundred yards away from the boss and hold one button down. Don’t even worry about the light attacks, sustain, or any of that stuff. They gave everybody access to an easy mode, use it. Why bother to do anything else.

    Thank you for the sarcasm however there are obviously sets which boost the heavy attack damage
    The reason the above sets work, btw, is because they apply to every tick of a lightning heavy attack and the final tick does an inordinate amount of cleave (AOE) damage from the destro staff tri-focus passive.

    Ahh thank you can’t wait until ZoS nerfs that lol
    They won't. They nerfed Empower slightly last patch, and they inhibited the use of heavy attack builds in PvP for the most part. They had buffed heavy attack builds in spring last year, then they were going to abolish them with U35 in autumn. As you may or may not know U35 caused major unrest in the playerbase. Nefas' "Project Vitality" initiative eventually collapsed (for now) due to an exodus of raid leaders and lack of interest from existing progression groups to continue with high-end PvE.

    [snip] Since U35 that has calmed down and Arcanist was IMO thoughtfully designed. Anyway, during the PTS cycle of U35 ZOS re-instated heavy attack builds. Their stated goals include accessibility, but to the bewilderment of the playerbase they had tried to eliminate one of the major existing ways that contributed to that, e.g. heavy attack builds. Due to all that history, I believe they're here to stay.

    Edited for Bashing
    Edited by zos_Izaren on July 6, 2023 9:47AM
    PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
    PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
  • Libonotus
    Libonotus
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    fred4 wrote: »
    Libonotus wrote: »
    fred4 wrote: »
    Libonotus wrote: »
    Malprave wrote: »
    Lightning staff heavy attack build. Stand a hundred yards away from the boss and hold one button down. Don’t even worry about the light attacks, sustain, or any of that stuff. They gave everybody access to an easy mode, use it. Why bother to do anything else.

    Thank you for the sarcasm however there are obviously sets which boost the heavy attack damage
    The reason the above sets work, btw, is because they apply to every tick of a lightning heavy attack and the final tick does an inordinate amount of cleave (AOE) damage from the destro staff tri-focus passive.

    Ahh thank you can’t wait until ZoS nerfs that lol
    They won't. They nerfed Empower slightly last patch, and they inhibited the use of heavy attack builds in PvP for the most part. They had buffed heavy attack builds in spring last year, then they were going to abolish them with U35 in autumn. As you may or may not know U35 caused major unrest in the playerbase. Nefas' "Project Vitality" initiative eventually collapsed (for now) due to an exodus of raid leaders and lack of interest from existing progression groups to continue with high-end PvE.

    [snip] Since U35 that has calmed down and Arcanist was IMO thoughtfully designed. Anyway, during the PTS cycle of U35 ZOS re-instated heavy attack builds. Their stated goals include accessibility, but to the bewilderment of the playerbase they had tried to eliminate one of the major existing ways that contributed to that, e.g. heavy attack builds. Due to all that history, I believe they're here to stay.

    Edited for Bashing

    Oh wow….. yikes moment.

    If I use pets is the heavy attack buff also applied to their attack as the pets are pretty much an extension of my stats and scale off those
  • fred4
    fred4
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    I don't believe pet heavy attacks are buffed by those sets. Also, pets can be configured for damage or for (self) healing. However in a solo build you might also just run Hardened Ward + Critical Surge for shielding + healing. I don't know what skills are meta for group play. Time for someone else to chime in or for you to look at content creators. Nefas, Skinny Cheeks, Deltia, others.
    PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
    PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
  • FrancisCrawford
    FrancisCrawford
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    fred4 wrote: »
    Libonotus wrote: »
    fred4 wrote: »
    Like Dekibra says, it depends on what you want to do. In order of ascending difficulty:

    Questing
    Delves and public dungeons
    4 person normal dungeons
    12 person normal trials
    Normal arenas
    World bosses

    4 person veteran dungeons

    12 person veteran trials
    Veteran arenas
    PvP (hugely variable, but generally hard)
    Recent 4 person vet hard mode dungeons
    Recent 12 person vet hard mode trials

    That said, not all dungeons and trials are created equal. The newer (DLC) ones are generally harder. This creates some overlap. For example the old Craglorn vet trials are easier than some newer vet dungeons.

    The cutoff point where random groups start to fail is highlighted in bold. Below that point you can get by with not executing combat well. Above that point, not so much.

    You have a couple of options to lessen your workload:
    1. Use Oakensoul to cut down on your rotation and eliminate bar swapping.
    2. Play a (sorc) lightning staff heavy attack build using Oakensoul.
    3. Play an Arcanist, possibly with Oakensoul.
    4. Lessen the impact of bad weaving (light attack animation cancelling) with the Velothi Ur mythic, esp. as an Arcanist.
    5. Play a magicka templar, possibly with Oakensoul.
    Libonotus wrote: »
    Just wondering if you 100% absolutely need to be able to animation cancel in order to do good DPS in PvE?
    If this refers to light attack weaving, there are ways to cut back on that with a heavy attack build or Arcanist, or to eliminate the DPS impact using the new Velothi Ur mythic. That said, you still need to do some light attacks for ulti gen and, depending on build, to activate enchants.
    I suck at animation canceling no matter how many time I practice I either forget to block cancel
    Block-cancelling is rarely needed. You do not gain DPS by block-cancelling. You may gain a timing advantage in PvP, or you may block cancel to avoid a mechanic in PvE or being bursted in PvP.
    forget the rotation
    This will unfortunately limit your DPS potential quite a bit, even with an easy-mode heavy attack build. That said, the above build types have a fairly high DPS floor of 50K to 60K on a trial dummy by doing the absolute minimum.
    or forget to bar swap cancel.
    I'm not sure how you can forget exactly. If you bar swap at all, you will technically animation cancel your last ability, unless you are really slow.

    Hey do you have a build for the Sorc lightning staff heavy attack build
    I don't play them, so go to YouTube. That said, gear:
    • Sergeant's Mail, weapon - probably Precise lightning staff - and 2x jewelry, transmuted to Bloodthirsty. 1x Chest.
    • Noble Duelist. People will recommend Storm Master instead, but this is arguably out of date. I've seen the highest damage in a trial from a Noble Duelist build, provided you can be in melee range some of the time.
    • Oakensoul ring (Bloodthirsty). All weapon / spell damage enchants.
    • Probably Thief mundus.
    • 1x Slimecraw.
    Skills I'm not sure about. Hardened Ward for solo play. Possibly use pets and Daedric Prey.

    Undaunted Infiltrator or Spider Cultist work as substitutes for Noble Duelist if you don't want to commit to being in melee range.
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    Animation cancelling is misunderstood. You never need to block cancel animations. In fact skill animations will still continue while holding block, this is called block casting and is necessary is some encounters with high incoming damage.

    Bar swap canceling isn't doing anything special either, it just means that you can fit a bar swap in between consecutive skills without losing any time. It takes a little practice to get the timing perfect, but worst case you are slightly slow on casting the next skill.

    The main thing you are going to want to do for PVE is light attack between each skill. Several years ago this would result in cancelled animations, but this was fixed for most skills so both the light attack and skill get animations. Some may still get shortened slightly if the animation is longer than the 1s global cooldown, but you can still tell what you are casting.

    If you want to avoid light attack weaving entirely then playing an Arcanist with the Velothi Amulet allows that while still being competitive in PVE. You'll just need an AoE DoT on each skill bar to continue proccing weapon enchants (like Endless Hail, Blockade, Deadly Cloak).
    Edited by WrathOfInnos on July 6, 2023 5:28PM
  • Soarora
    Soarora
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    Do not fall into the trap of “I don’t like weaving therefore I must use a heavy attack build”! It’s not true! Yes, you can get good DPS without weaving or with poor weaving. It is a skill that should be practiced if you want to be the best DPS or squeeze out that extra damage but it’s not 100% necessary, especially on arcanist with how long the spammable is.
    As for practicing weaving:
    - If you are on PC, get a weaving addon. I have one that shows me the space in time where I have to LA, since it varies per skill.
    - If you’re really struggling with LA-skill-LA-skill while doing a rotation, learn the weaving for each of your skills one at a time. I have seen people do this and it seems to have helped them.
    - Take your rotation slow and speed up once you’ve gotten a hang of it.
    - Eventually, it’ll be muscle memory and you can focus on other things like bar swap cancelling, which I consider more of a mastery of a build than a necessity. (Ex. I barswap cancel arctic blast because the animation is too long, but I’ve also been working on this build for over a year.) Not all classes have skills that “need” bar swap cancelled anyways. Like I don’t think DK has any, but Warden has like 2 or 3. I’m not even sure it really does anything except for making my rotation feel more consistent in timing but… anyways, not something to worry about right now.

    P.S. Block cancelling is only necessary if you’re doing a channeled attack and need to block. Examples include jabs, dark deal, bloodthirst, and arcanist beam. If you block cancel, it cancels the skill not just the animation.
    Edited by Soarora on July 6, 2023 3:46PM
    PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore
  • Libonotus
    Libonotus
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    Soarora wrote: »
    Do not fall into the trap of “I don’t like weaving therefore I must use a heavy attack build”! It’s not true! Yes, you can get good DPS without weaving or with poor weaving. It is a skill that should be practiced if you want to be the best DPS or squeeze out that extra damage but it’s not 100% necessary, especially on arcanist with how long the spammable is.
    As for practicing weaving:
    - If you are on PC, get a weaving addon. I have one that shows me the space in time where I have to LA, since it varies per skill.
    - If you’re really struggling with LA-skill-LA-skill while doing a rotation, learn the weaving for each of your skills one at a time. I have seen people do this and it seems to have helped them.
    - Take your rotation slow and speed up once you’ve gotten a hang of it.
    - Eventually, it’ll be muscle memory and you can focus on other things like bar swap cancelling, which I consider more of a mastery of a build than a necessity. (Ex. I barswap cancel arctic blast because the animation is too long, but I’ve also been working on this build for over a year.) Not all classes have skills that “need” bar swap cancelled anyways. Like I don’t think DK has any, but Warden has like 2 or 3. I’m not even sure it really does anything except for making my rotation feel more consistent in timing but… anyways, not something to worry about right now.

    P.S. Block cancelling is only necessary if you’re doing a channeled attack and need to block. Examples include jabs, dark deal, bloodthirst, and arcanist beam. If you block cancel, it cancels the skill not just the animation.

    Ahhh okay so it doesn’t really make a difference? Thanks for the insight
  • zaria
    zaria
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    Soarora wrote: »
    Do not fall into the trap of “I don’t like weaving therefore I must use a heavy attack build”! It’s not true! Yes, you can get good DPS without weaving or with poor weaving. It is a skill that should be practiced if you want to be the best DPS or squeeze out that extra damage but it’s not 100% necessary, especially on arcanist with how long the spammable is.
    As for practicing weaving:
    - If you are on PC, get a weaving addon. I have one that shows me the space in time where I have to LA, since it varies per skill.
    - If you’re really struggling with LA-skill-LA-skill while doing a rotation, learn the weaving for each of your skills one at a time. I have seen people do this and it seems to have helped them.
    - Take your rotation slow and speed up once you’ve gotten a hang of it.
    - Eventually, it’ll be muscle memory and you can focus on other things like bar swap cancelling, which I consider more of a mastery of a build than a necessity. (Ex. I barswap cancel arctic blast because the animation is too long, but I’ve also been working on this build for over a year.) Not all classes have skills that “need” bar swap cancelled anyways. Like I don’t think DK has any, but Warden has like 2 or 3. I’m not even sure it really does anything except for making my rotation feel more consistent in timing but… anyways, not something to worry about right now.

    P.S. Block cancelling is only necessary if you’re doing a channeled attack and need to block. Examples include jabs, dark deal, bloodthirst, and arcanist beam. If you block cancel, it cancels the skill not just the animation.
    Agree with all of this, except block casting is very useful if you take lots of damage, very useful for tanks unless you know the mechanic well for one. same for healers. And as you pointed out you can use it to cancel an channel like aracnist or templar beam, who is critical not only to block but also to cast an emergency heal who you can do while blocking.

    But then most talk about animation canceling they talk about LA weave who you can use other builds if you have issues with it.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • propertyOfUndefined
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    Velothi + Arcanist is pretty great. No weaving necessary for decent damage.
  • merpins
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    weaving is important to learn. You can get away with not using it if you're a heavy attack build, and somewhat if you're using the Velothi amulet on an Arcanist. But LA weaving is important for every other build, even the Arcanist one I mentioned, because it builds up your Ultimate
  • NoSoup
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    You can complete all content in the game without being good at annimation cancelling with probably the exception of Hard Mode Vet Trial Leaderboard runs.

    Edit - Good at animation cancelling, ie you should still be weaving light attacks between every skill but don't get too hung up on having the timing perfect that you cancel the animation.
    Edited by NoSoup on July 6, 2023 10:59PM
    Formally SirDopey, lost forum account during the great reset.....
  • ZOS_Icy
    ZOS_Icy
    mod
    Greetings,

    This thread has been moved to the Players Helping Players section, as it is better suited there.

    Thank you for your understanding.
    Staff Post
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