Things ZOS could do to make my "off-meta" hybrid build not just viable, but desirable.

spacewolfplays

I'm making this post because ZOS has been making efforts to remove (some) arbitrary in-game restrictions from combat. I've love what they've done to most sets to affect both weapon and spell power. There are a few more steps I'd take to open up the game to more possibilities. Particularly potions, but after some background I'll ask for specifics.

Backstory:

The first thing I did with access to hybrid builds was build a meta DW/staff magblade and it was strong, it was kinda fun. But I wanted to try something different.
I'm currently building a 2h sword & staff mag dk, themed around the DK passives of Fire & Poison. I've talked about it with some end-game raiders and all the advice is the same:

• Make it a daggers build (I hear this endlessly. Might be true but if I wanted a daggers build I'd be building a daggers build).
• Switch to medium sets
• Use more "meta" skills
• Put trap on your front-bar (if i do this i lose Seething Fury stacks, not worth it)
• Use maelstrom staff
• etc...

Without doing any of that I've already gotten a 92k dummy parse. I've tried some of it and gotten notably worse parses. But also I'm still learning the parse for this build so it's changing frequently and some of the numbers are going up or down just based on my ability to do the dynamic parse well. Hard to properly compare some of the things I've been comparing, such as medium weapon damage bonus vs crit rating from light armor. Currently running 2 medium, 6 light.

• Monster set: Zaans (Med head, light shoulders)
• Body: 4pc Siroria's
• Mythic: Harpooner's Wading Kilt
• Jewelery: Venomous Spite
• Front bar: Siroria's Greatsword, precise, flame enchant
• Backbar: Venomous Inferno Staff, infused, weapon damage enchant
• Potion: Essence of Health normally for the Mag/Stam regen
• Potion w/ some extra damage: I run what's called "Essence of Magicka" but it's stam regen, magicka regen, and heroism. I am able to get 1 extra Standard of Might off.
• Food: Crunchy Spider Skewers (Max Magicka + Stam regen)

(Having the siroria greatsword and venomous as a staff just kinda hurts to do, but it works.)

Things I'm still testing: Blue CP, Potions, Armor weights, & skills. Also my Degen skill is still lvl1.
I'm not running any arena pieces. Someday I'll test the build w/ daggers for ***-n-giggles, but not the goal rn. And the reality is that things will change in content anyway.

Here's my latest parse on the build:



Not too shabby. I'm proud of my off-meta themed build. I'm not done working on it tho. ANWYAY... here we go.

What I want to see:

Most of what I want comes down to buffs that have not gotten updated along w/ the rest of the mechanics, and that's mostly foods.

1. I'd like to see more flexibility with potions. We should be able to build a potion that has any combination of traits we have access too. Now that you've added combined weapon/spell buffs, we need it in potions. I want to make a potion that's Endurance, Intelligence, and Sorcery, but I cant. Just an example, but would be nice to have.
2. I need potions to be named differently, or let us name our own potions please. 15 different "Essence of Health" that do different things.
3. We need more top-tier food/drink that crosses attributes. Currently I think only Jester's and Witches festival recipes do this well. Mix Stam and Mag the same way that you offer buffs for mainstream.
4. Update The Apprentice & Warrior mundus stones
5. Give some love to martial status effects please. With enough CP it can be helped, but I've got over 1200 CP and still dont have enough to give full love to magical and martial status effects.
6. More interesting magicka weapons anyone can use.

There are plenty of threads a year old addressing some of these things. After all that, I don't have much else to say.

This is not a post asking for help with my hybrid build specifically. But I am curious what other people want to see to make most hybrid builds less niche.

SoraJP

I like making off-meta builds too, specifically on my Warden DPS. I agree with most of your suggestions, I think that the alchemy hybridization is still on their to-do list, and mundus stones definitely need some tweaking (it's always divines with Thief stone...)

The main thing that stands out to me about your build is that you are 6-piecing Siroria. You should replace the sash with a one-piece set such as Trainee.

gariondavey

SoraJP wrote: »

I like making off-meta builds too, specifically on my Warden DPS. I agree with most of your suggestions, I think that the alchemy hybridization is still on their to-do list, and mundus stones definitely need some tweaking (it's always divines with Thief stone...)

The main thing that stands out to me about your build is that you are 6-piecing Siroria. You should replace the sash with a one-piece set such as Trainee.

The 4 pc from siroria will be up on the back bar in this set up.
This is common in PvE builds.
1 pc trainee in PvP builds is absolutely preferred, but not in PvE

jaws343

gariondavey wrote: »

SoraJP wrote: »

I like making off-meta builds too, specifically on my Warden DPS. I agree with most of your suggestions, I think that the alchemy hybridization is still on their to-do list, and mundus stones definitely need some tweaking (it's always divines with Thief stone...)

The main thing that stands out to me about your build is that you are 6-piecing Siroria. You should replace the sash with a one-piece set such as Trainee.

The 4 pc from siroria will be up on the back bar in this set up.
This is common in PvE builds.
1 pc trainee in PvP builds is absolutely preferred, but not in PvE

That isn't common at all. Most players who either front or back bar a set, and most guides that recommend doing that, do so with only 3 pieces on the jewelry/body and the 2 piece weapon. Having 3 pieces active at all time and only 5 on bar swap. That extra piece just to have the 4 on swap is a waste.

spacewolfplays

Off topic, but for educations sake, lately people are using 1 dagger of each set lately to get 4pc regardless of which bar you're on. My build is very unusual since it's not using an arena piece. a typical build these days is 1 monster set, 1 mythic, 1 arena piece, and then 5 & 4 of a set. This is what I see more than anything now.

I was excited to have 2 new comments on my post and then this is the convo.

StarOfElyon

I don't mean to ruin your fun but I think hybrids have already become so strong that some "meta" builds are hybrid and I don't want that. I started playing hybrid builds around the release of northern Elsweyr and at that time Pelinals and New Moon were pretty much the only way to build a good hybrid. After the hybridization of armor sets, I think there was almost a perfect balance of viability without being "meta". Now almost everyone is on a hybrid build and it no longer feels like a unique way to play. If anything, hybrid play should take a nerf so it can go back to being niche again.

Twig_Garlicshine

Seeing non-meta builds is always a pleasure, thanks OP.

Personally I see no issue with running a set that is 4 and then 6 if the 4th line is okay.
"(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage"
Changing to trainee just for the sake of having something different doesn't equal it is really "useful".
"(1 item) Adds 1454 Maximum Health"
Just how "useful" a person would find a little extra health in a pve build is debatable.
And to be honest the probability that 1400 health will "consistently" save you in pvp is a non zero number at best.

Sometimes it is more "useful" just to get your build done and go play the game.

SandandStars

ZOS could identify the top 5 most commonly used meta builds, and if a character is running one, attach a little wedge of cheese icon over their head.

spacewolfplays

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Now almost everyone is on a hybrid build and it no longer feels like a unique way to play. If anything, hybrid play should take a nerf so it can go back to being niche again.

I agree with you that everyone is playing hybrid, but they're all playing the same hybrid build. That's an issue of balancing. They need to fix OP Daggers. Then there could be some variety, maybe. I dont think hybrid is the issue. Just daggers/staff.

The ability to have 2 weapon bars is so great, just wish there was more we could do w/ it.

spacewolfplays

Fkey wrote: »

Sometimes it is more "useful" just to get your build done and go play the game.

Lol



I thought we were all just theory crafting in guild halls until we died?!

seriously tho, I agree. I spend far too much time grinding things and doing *** like this instead of just playing the freaking game.

SandandStars

I theory craft a lot because I get no satisfaction from a cheese DK/NB build yet I try to find an off-meta (Non-DW/Vatesh) build that can, with skill, compete with the Hordes of Copycat Cheese builds.

It keeps things challenging/interesting.

StarOfElyon

SandandStars wrote: »

I theory craft a lot because I get no satisfaction from a cheese DK/NB build yet I try to find an off-meta (Non-DW/Vatesh) build that can, with skill, compete with the Hordes of Copycat Cheese builds.

It keeps things challenging/interesting.

You mean "skill enhancing builds".

SandandStars

😂

yes, thank you for the excellent word smithing.

StarOfElyon

SandandStars wrote: »

😂

yes, thank you for the excellent word smithing.

Credit to Isth3reno1else for that. Wish ZOS had listened to all his suggestions (over time).

https://youtu.be/Ts5XSc-Y1BM
(The video is satire)

BXR_Lonestar

TBH, I think they've done enough to promote hybridization, and I'm not really a big fan of it. It now feels like the meta for both stam and mag are roughly the same - or at least, the meta for stam spec and mag spec are all picking from the same handful of meta sets. It feels like the meta was basically cut in half ever since they started the whole hybridization thing.

I definitely agree that they need to buff more sets and skills so that off-meta builds are much more competitive than they are right now, but I don't think this hybridization thing was a step in the right direction. I much preferred it when Stam builds were very unique and different from a Mag build. Now? Basically feels the same with minor window-dressing differences based on class.

spacewolfplays

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

TBH, I think they've done enough to promote hybridization, and I'm not really a big fan of it. It now feels like the meta for both stam and mag are roughly the same - or at least, the meta for stam spec and mag spec are all picking from the same handful of meta sets. It feels like the meta was basically cut in half ever since they started the whole hybridization thing.

I definitely agree that they need to buff more sets and skills so that off-meta builds are much more competitive than they are right now, but I don't think this hybridization thing was a step in the right direction. I much preferred it when Stam builds were very unique and different from a Mag build. Now? Basically feels the same with minor window-dressing differences based on class.

definitely a valid compliant. one we also already talked about a little. but clearly seems to be a problem. It feels like they added hybridization without coming up with ways to keep mag only or stam only unique? Idk I still feel like most meta builds on the guides out there are either dw/2h, dw/bow, or staff/staff. And the ONLY hybrid build out there is dw/staff. so i really think the only thing they could really do is just make it more varied.

BUT we need to remember that those builds are for people trying to get an extra 5% of damage out. A dw/2h build is gonna do maybe 5-10% more than a 2h/2h build. There are plenty of reasonable builds.

p00tx

spacewolfplays wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

TBH, I think they've done enough to promote hybridization, and I'm not really a big fan of it. It now feels like the meta for both stam and mag are roughly the same - or at least, the meta for stam spec and mag spec are all picking from the same handful of meta sets. It feels like the meta was basically cut in half ever since they started the whole hybridization thing.

I definitely agree that they need to buff more sets and skills so that off-meta builds are much more competitive than they are right now, but I don't think this hybridization thing was a step in the right direction. I much preferred it when Stam builds were very unique and different from a Mag build. Now? Basically feels the same with minor window-dressing differences based on class.

definitely a valid compliant. one we also already talked about a little. but clearly seems to be a problem. It feels like they added hybridization without coming up with ways to keep mag only or stam only unique? Idk I still feel like most meta builds on the guides out there are either dw/2h, dw/bow, or staff/staff. And the ONLY hybrid build out there is dw/staff. so i really think the only thing they could really do is just make it more varied.

BUT we need to remember that those builds are for people trying to get an extra 5% of damage out. A dw/2h build is gonna do maybe 5-10% more than a 2h/2h build. There are plenty of reasonable builds.

On an advanced player trying to min/max, the difference is closer to 20%, but I still see your point.

spacewolfplays

p00tx wrote: »

On an advanced player trying to min/max, the difference is closer to 20%, but I still see your point.

I wouldnt call myself an advanced player, but I am Min/Maxing, and I'm getting 90k+. Idk if that's 20% below peak magdk.

But obviously Id like to be as close as possible.