Why ESO is the way it is and its not just ZOS's fault.

Snamyap

Jaraal wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

Anyone else wondering how long this thread will stay open? Anyone? Just me? Alrighty then.....😂

Soon to be moved to the Players Complaining About Players subforum, I'm sure.

I bet if the mods had the ability they would create subforums until every post in general discussion could be moved.

ADarklore

Xandreia_ wrote: »

Zos listen to the wrong people, the ones they should be listening to stopped posting a long time ago. The casual players will moan about anything and everything. The fixes they demand can mostly be fixed with an addon or changing a few settings. The issues most of us want fixed get ignored or bombarded with casual players demanding lesser things are done. (I'm 100% going to get dragged for this lol) I'm not saying every casual player does this, but a good amount do.

I see quite a few posts saying how people enjoy skyrim and the other games and want to implimemt things from them into eso, eso is a completely separate game from the solo games. Yes it has elder scrolls in the title but it's not the same, nor should it ever be. (Rambling...)

On the topic of arcanist. Its great. Its fun, animations are completely new which is WHAT WE ALL WANTED! Green is a great colour for it. It's the most fun dps class imo, pvp it's ok, not amazing but still fun.
Everything about the class is great... people will never be 100% happy.

I'm one of the first in line to call out zos and their inability to communicate but some people just take the absolute P.

It's funny you said that, considering Rich said in interviews that with One Tamriel, they changed the game to focus more on being "Skyrim with friends" because that's what the majority of players seemed to want and they wanted to return to focusing on what made the Elder Scrolls series so successful.

Braffin

ADarklore wrote: »

Xandreia_ wrote: »

Zos listen to the wrong people, the ones they should be listening to stopped posting a long time ago. The casual players will moan about anything and everything. The fixes they demand can mostly be fixed with an addon or changing a few settings. The issues most of us want fixed get ignored or bombarded with casual players demanding lesser things are done. (I'm 100% going to get dragged for this lol) I'm not saying every casual player does this, but a good amount do.

I see quite a few posts saying how people enjoy skyrim and the other games and want to implimemt things from them into eso, eso is a completely separate game from the solo games. Yes it has elder scrolls in the title but it's not the same, nor should it ever be. (Rambling...)

On the topic of arcanist. Its great. Its fun, animations are completely new which is WHAT WE ALL WANTED! Green is a great colour for it. It's the most fun dps class imo, pvp it's ok, not amazing but still fun.
Everything about the class is great... people will never be 100% happy.

I'm one of the first in line to call out zos and their inability to communicate but some people just take the absolute P.

It's funny you said that, considering Rich said in interviews that with One Tamriel, they changed the game to focus more on being "Skyrim with friends" because that's what the majority of players seemed to want and they wanted to return to focusing on what made the Elder Scrolls series so successful.

You're right, eso is an elder scrolls game for sure, but not at any given moment devs spoke about transisting this game into a single player experience for "veteran solists".

Instead they were talking about this:

A lot of the feedback at launch centered on the fact that ESO didn’t feel Elder Scrolls enough. It was a hybrid of MMO and Elder Scrolls “light” as we were trying to appeal to both MMO & Elder Scrolls players at the same time. A lot of players reacted negatively to that and so the team took a hard look at the game and what we wanted it to be – ultimately deciding to focus more on the Elder Scrolls aspects. Two major initiatives came out from that decision – improving world interactivity and freedom of exploration.

https://www.thegamer.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-interview/

and this:

I definitely think that early on, we were a little bit gun shy in really saying what we wanted and what we wanted the game to be because we wanted to appeal to everybody, and therefore didn't hit all the notes that we wanted to. Now that we've got One Tamriel out, it feels like an Elder Scrolls world. You can go anywhere, you can play any way. It fits the combat system where any class can wear any armor set, can use any weapon set, and can mix and match abilities. It just feels like the game we originally envisioned back in 2007 when we first started talking about the game.

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/elder-scrolls-online-expands-in-a-big-way-with-mor/1100-6448118/

So please show us where exactly the developers ever stated they would envision soloable world bosses for literally everyone or a shared world without need to group up for various content.

I already told you once, and will happily do it again: Also framing needs to be learned.

Luckylancer

SithisKhajitiiLamae wrote: »

After I joined the eso forums I see now why the original dev team left and the current dev team don't listen to the fans.

The fans have been whining on the forums for years for a new class and that classes all feel the same.

Arcanist comes out: more negative posts than positive ones. Mainly centered around the class being so different from the others.



They complain for years about wanting harder overland content.

Nightmare Wb aka overland comes out and is hard: omg its to hard. You can't even kill it by yourself.




Its sad that the official site where zos gets all their feedback from is like this.

New class punish the players that dont use anything but class skills. People will complain A LOT after a while. Mark my words.

About harder overland, you are oblivious to game. Devs always release extremely hard overland content. Dragons, skyrim hallow storms etc are nearly unsoloable. DLC world bosses are nuts.

We want veteran single player arena difficulty stuff. It should be soloable when new zones popularity is gone. Also make it optional. No one wants to get forced in to impossible content. Singleplayer arenas have normal mode too.

Devs should give forums a feedback too. Otherwise forumers will echo the same toxic stuff. Also current devs generate so much material for toxicity too. They are terrible tbh. I think thats why they do not come here. They just escape. Like they did in live stream. They silenced anyone that mentioned PvP.

JanTanhide

Xandreia_ wrote: »

Zos listen to the wrong people, the ones they should be listening to stopped posting a long time ago. The casual players will moan about anything and everything. The fixes they demand can mostly be fixed with an addon or changing a few settings. The issues most of us want fixed get ignored or bombarded with casual players demanding lesser things are done. (I'm 100% going to get dragged for this lol) I'm not saying every casual player does this, but a good amount do.

I see quite a few posts saying how people enjoy skyrim and the other games and want to implimemt things from them into eso, eso is a completely separate game from the solo games. Yes it has elder scrolls in the title but it's not the same, nor should it ever be. (Rambling...)

On the topic of arcanist. Its great. Its fun, animations are completely new which is WHAT WE ALL WANTED! Green is a great colour for it. It's the most fun dps class imo, pvp it's ok, not amazing but still fun.
Everything about the class is great... people will never be 100% happy.

I'm one of the first in line to call out zos and their inability to communicate but some people just take the absolute P.

I couldn't agree more with your post. Everything I wanted to post you posted. I too love the Arcanist and Necrom. IMO it's the best chapter to date. Whomever designed Necrom, especially the Bastion Nymic areas are to be congratulated. I think these areas are superbly done!

Thank you for your post! It's spot on.

Sarannah

Xandreia_ wrote: »

Zos listen to the wrong people, the ones they should be listening to stopped posting a long time ago. The casual players will moan about anything and everything. The fixes they demand can mostly be fixed with an addon or changing a few settings. The issues most of us want fixed get ignored or bombarded with casual players demanding lesser things are done. (I'm 100% going to get dragged for this lol) I'm not saying every casual player does this, but a good amount do.

Funny, because with OneTamriel the game was actually SAVED because of the casuals. You can't pin the current issues on casuals tbh. And add-ons should not be a fix to an in-game issue. The game should work great without add-ons, personally I'd be happy if they disabled them completely in the name of fairplay(should 100% happen in PvP).

But pinning all the current issues on casuals makes no sense. Everyone from all different types of playergroups posts their ideas, some are good some are bad. But that is no reason to pin it on a specific group.

No matter what ideas we all post, ZOS will judge them with a developer's eye. ZOS does in no way look at the forums like we do, though they may laugh at the same cat-jokes. Take for instance the overland difficulty thread... that entire thread makes no sense. Players ask for harder overland, the thing that almost destroyed the game to begin with, and anything made to be harder(like U35) drives away players and makes content so tedious players stop doing that content entirely(harrowstorms/wandering nightmare/craglorn/etc). ZOS looks at it with a developer's eye, and will probably never do something like that. We are players not developers, we in no way can know what they are thinking about what ideas we post.

Just please don't pin your gripes about the game on casuals, or on any playergroup, as that is not a fair judgement.

M0ntie

Re the new class - most people I play with like the new class and a lot are playing it. Players asked, and players received. And I thought the timeframe was reasonable for a new class. Well done ZoS on that.

Regarding Bastian Nymic. I thought it was a good response from ZoS for harder overland content. It is optional! The problem is with grouping for it. The is no organised grouping and they seem to have too many instances at some times so often the place is deserted. I have just tried to get in a group and despite people spamming zone chat for groups and accepting groups, it is a dog's breakfast.

ZoS does other things that annoy the pants off players though. Like ripping them off for campaign rewards by changing the end date out a month instead of paying out the nearly ended campaign.

Agenericname

M0ntie wrote: »

Re the new class - most people I play with like the new class and a lot are playing it. Players asked, and players received. And I thought the timeframe was reasonable for a new class. Well done ZoS on that.

Regarding Bastian Nymic. I thought it was a good response from ZoS for harder overland content. It is optional! The problem is with grouping for it. The is no organised grouping and they seem to have too many instances at some times so often the place is deserted. I have just tried to get in a group and despite people spamming zone chat for groups and accepting groups, it is a dog's breakfast.

ZoS does other things that annoy the pants off players though. Like ripping them off for campaign rewards by changing the end date out a month instead of paying out the nearly ended campaign.

I dont think that Bastion Nymic was an answer to harder overland, or meant to be such. It feels more lile ZOS just trying something new.

Its not an optional level of difficulty. There's one difficulty setting and participation is optional. What most asked for with harder overland was an optional difficulty level that wouldnt hinder other players. If this was an attempt at that by ZOS, they misinterpreted the request. I suppose you could solo them and make them a little more challenging, but that still leaves solo players in roughly the same place. If other players want a visual novel, thats fine with me, as long as I can have an engaging experience. They fell a bit short in making us all happy.

On the other three points, I agree. It would benefit from a grouping tool. And the end of campaign rewards being extended out, especially at a time when transmute crystals are in high demand, was a rather shady thing to do. The class is great.

My only real issue with the class is how difficult it can be to keep track of crux in organized group content when there's so much visual clutter on the screen. I find myself using an add on to deal with it, but that was a rather simple fix and overall Im still happy with the class.

markulrich1966

it is a fault of ZoS, because they are not able to draw the right conclusions of the contradictory feedback they get from the players.

Example:
some players say: "overland is too easy
other players say: overland is too hard

Now, the reaction by ZoS was to listen to one faction, ignoring the other, by adding Bastion Nymic instead of Dolmens.

There would have been other solutions, and they failed to implement them:
- dolmens AND a new type of content like the Bastion, so something to cater BOTH.
- scaling, like normal/vet in dungeons
- scaling of existing content, so solo players don't fail on dead empty servers like xbox EU doing daily worldbosses, or get bored burning them down in seconds on well populated servers

You cannot blame the players to express their personal favours, indeed such feedback is important to improve the product. But you can blame, if a company fails to draw the best conclusions from this feedback.

ProudMary

The state of PvP (Cyrodiil) is 100% ZOS's doing. The super low pop caps could be increased with more investment on ZOS's end, ZOS could stop taking away primary objectives in Cyro like the removal of the faction health bonus for getting emp, increase group size back to 24, ZOS could put FAR more effort into balancing so PvP wasn't about 5 builds vs. everything else etc.

Jaraal

ProudMary wrote: »

The state of PvP (Cyrodiil) is 100% ZOS's doing. The super low pop caps could be increased with more investment on ZOS's end, ZOS could stop taking away primary objectives in Cyro like the removal of the faction health bonus for getting emp, increase group size back to 24, ZOS could put FAR more effort into balancing so PvP wasn't about 5 builds vs. everything else etc.

Yes, ZOS' solution for Cyrodiil issues is to take things away, rather than adding to and enriching the experience. And yet the issues continue to get worse, not better. (Stuck in combat, 49710 day debuffs, can't get out of delves, lag, rubberbanding, crashes, skills not firing, etc)

SilverBride

Arthtur wrote: »

Is it really that hard to see that the ppl complaining about harder WB are the ones who were against any increased difficulty? Ppl that dont do group content and mostly just want to quest in peace in overland?

I complained about the harder World Bosses in Necrom and I am against a separate veteran overland and a mandatory difficulty increase for all players, but I support ALL the other options presented in the pinned thread, such as difficulty sliders, debuff potions and hard mode for quest bosses.

It is true that I never used to do group content but have regeared all my characters, equipped them with monster helms and mythics, tweaked their builds and have been running veteran dungeons.

But I still prefer that overland be kept as it is, because it is not just for the top tier players. It's also for those players that just want to quest in peace.

Gargath

I think dev team listens to the fans but in their own way, which sometimes doesn't correspond well with people expectations. Despite huge player whinings devs for years do not want to change annoying aspects of the game like the flapping pets in bank/crafting spots. In a same time they see nothing wrong in purposely damaging or making useless some of the best armor sets they invented. Some these decisions seems completely irrational. Especially when they are supported with twisted arguments and final conclusion of how well that change will serve a community. We can only feel like someone robbed us of our stuff but can do nothing because decision was made by devs who don't care about consequences.

chessalavakia_ESO

SithisKhajitiiLamae wrote: »

After I joined the eso forums I see now why the original dev team left and the current dev team don't listen to the fans.

The fans have been whining on the forums for years for a new class and that classes all feel the same.

Arcanist comes out: more negative posts than positive ones. Mainly centered around the class being so different from the others.



They complain for years about wanting harder overland content.

Nightmare Wb aka overland comes out and is hard: omg its to hard. You can't even kill it by yourself.




Its sad that the official site where zos gets all their feedback from is like this.

The MMO genre has gradually evolved from being hardcore and teamwork centered to being more like a theme park. As a result, games in the genre will frequently players that range across that spectrum and thus have significantly different desires.

ESO like SWTOR also built an MMO on top of what was a single player franchise which wasn't putting out much content so people that like that franchise have picked up the MMO despite not necessarily wanting to be on an MMO.

Thus, ESO has an audience that is incredibly diverse with widely different desires and it is unlikely that ZOS can keep all of them happy at once.

You'll find that many of the users of forums also tend to be more active when they are unhappy about something and care enough to post it. My forum account dates back to 2013 but, if you check my posts you'll see the postings are basically all in the last year or so. Before that I was either happy or didn't care enough to bother (as I quit ESO on multiple prior occasions it was frequently didn't care).

You'll also find that what people complain about and what they want frequently has nuance.

For example, I do like the idea of new classes that are a bit different than the current classes but, much of that is because I want a less flashy and more grounded experience like I had in the prior Elder Scrolls titles.

You can see how for me, the Arcanist wouldn't exactly be what I was after. That doesn't mean that other players aren't necessarily going to like it.

I do feel that the difficulty in ESO is off but, I feel the issue is that ESO leans too much on big hits that can be mitigated and too little on regular damage which coupled with the massive gap in damage dealt due to gearing/skill leaves the game in the position of either being ridiculously easy in content designed so that anyone can beat it or tedious/needlessly hard. The newer world bosses tended to continue the trend of leaning on the mechanics to do most of the damage which turns the fights into cheesing or Simon Says: Hard Mode. Again, personally I am not a fan but, you do have people that wanted harder Overland that are happy with the bosses and a portion of the complaints about them are coming from people that do not want harder Overland.

Snamyap wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

SithisKhajitiiLamae wrote: »

After I joined the eso forums I see now why the original dev team left and the current dev team don't listen to the fans.

The fans have been whining on the forums for years for a new class and that classes all feel the same.

Arcanist comes out: more negative posts than positive ones. Mainly centered around the class being so different from the others.



They complain for years about wanting harder overland content.

Nightmare Wb aka overland comes out and is hard: omg its to hard. You can't even kill it by yourself.




Its sad that the official site where zos gets all their feedback from is like this.

With all due respect, people have not been asking for a new class. They have been asking for more skill lines outside of classes to open up building options. I love Arcanist and I am having a blast with it, but options outside of classes have become stale. We need non class skill lines and/or the destruction staves splitting up into 3 distinct weapon skill lines. This would be a good start and really open things up for existing classes and the game in general.

Adding new skill lines is a weird request imho, we only have so many skill slots. I'd rather they spend some time on redoing older skill lines, I'm sure there are a bunch of skills that are hardly ever used.

The issues you run into with changing skill lines is that some people will like the existing versions of skills and find that changing them messes up their experience, the changes can end up not being very exciting, and it's easy to end up breaking other things (one of the reasons skills don't get much use is that they are weaker than others so buffing one can break others).

Braffin wrote: »

Xandreia_ wrote: »

Zos listen to the wrong people, the ones they should be listening to stopped posting a long time ago. The casual players will moan about anything and everything. The fixes they demand can mostly be fixed with an addon or changing a few settings. The issues most of us want fixed get ignored or bombarded with casual players demanding lesser things are done. (I'm 100% going to get dragged for this lol) I'm not saying every casual player does this, but a good amount do.

You're mostly right on this, but I don't think the problem is related to "casual players", most of them aren't even on forums. It's a very small group of "veteran solo players", which are flooding every discussion with their personal opinion while pretending they are the majority. We are talking about approximately 10 to 15 people at most.

Personally, I think it would potentially be beneficial to have a cap on posting in the General Category that gives you a few hundred posts to start with and a hundred or so more every month you are active on forums.

merpins

For the hard WB one... People are asking for a Vet Overland option. Not for hard bosses in overland content. Having things in normal overland be too hard for new players can be alienating, especially when the new content is pushed more than old content. That's why veteran players want a mode that makes all overland content hard or at least challenging. So people are complaining a boss is too hard because... It's probably too hard.

Everything else is pretty spot on, if a bit negative of a point of view.

Marcus684

merpins wrote: »

For the hard WB one... People are asking for a Vet Overland option. Not for hard bosses in overland content. Having things in normal overland be too hard for new players can be alienating, especially when the new content is pushed more than old content. That's why veteran players want a mode that makes all overland content hard or at least challenging. So people are complaining a boss is too hard because... It's probably too hard.

Everything else is pretty spot on, if a bit negative of a point of view.

Some players have been asking for harder bosses in overland content, while others have been asking for vet overland like you. However, the devs have made it clear that creating a separate vet overland instance is a non-starter, as they don't want to divide up the playerbase like this, so at this point it's basically not an option.

Zastrix

Marcus684 wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

For the hard WB one... People are asking for a Vet Overland option. Not for hard bosses in overland content. Having things in normal overland be too hard for new players can be alienating, especially when the new content is pushed more than old content. That's why veteran players want a mode that makes all overland content hard or at least challenging. So people are complaining a boss is too hard because... It's probably too hard.

Everything else is pretty spot on, if a bit negative of a point of view.

Some players have been asking for harder bosses in overland content, while others have been asking for vet overland like you. However, the devs have made it clear that creating a separate vet overland instance is a non-starter, as they don't want to divide up the playerbase like this, so at this point it's basically not an option.

Maybe just make the normal/vet scale values rather than having different instances? No need for different instances, just do multiplication of values for resistances and for hits if not vet to increase it.

Sure some group stuff could still be killed fast if you have someone doing a lot of DIPS on 'normal' mode but most of the people who have that high damage would enable the vet mode for stimulation, that's the only reason why I basically ditched non-{vet DLC HM} content.

Cazador

Zastrix wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

For the hard WB one... People are asking for a Vet Overland option. Not for hard bosses in overland content. Having things in normal overland be too hard for new players can be alienating, especially when the new content is pushed more than old content. That's why veteran players want a mode that makes all overland content hard or at least challenging. So people are complaining a boss is too hard because... It's probably too hard.

Everything else is pretty spot on, if a bit negative of a point of view.

Some players have been asking for harder bosses in overland content, while others have been asking for vet overland like you. However, the devs have made it clear that creating a separate vet overland instance is a non-starter, as they don't want to divide up the playerbase like this, so at this point it's basically not an option.

Maybe just make the normal/vet scale values rather than having different instances? No need for different instances, just do multiplication of values for resistances and for hits if not vet to increase it.

Sure some group stuff could still be killed fast if you have someone doing a lot of DIPS on 'normal' mode but most of the people who have that high damage would enable the vet mode for stimulation, that's the only reason why I basically ditched non-{vet DLC HM} content.

I doubt that most with high damage would switch to a veteran mode myself without some greater rewards. If a veteran mode was available i think it's more likely that the majority of both lower and higher dps wouldn't use it so they could instead do more content (whether that be dailies or whatnot) more quickly.

Dojohoda

"Waiter, there's a bug in my soup."
Or I could just eat it. 🤔

Inaya1

There are two groups of people.
Those who love the game and spend time here all the time. If everything suits him, then sometimes he pays a subscription and buys crowns. Over the years of the game, its purchases will at times exceed the cost of the game itself. This is a stable income for developers, which can be kept solely by the introduction of new content, constant activity in the game and the inspiration of the developers themselves. This is not easy, but it bears fruit for its diligence to both the player and the creator.

And those who just buy the game at a time to go in and out for a while. The stronger the advertisement, the more buyers will be. But if the players are not hooked (that is, what is in the game), then they leave forever. Since nothing sensible is released, the old players also leave. This is a powerful incentive to get huge money literally from scratch, but because of this, a huge black PR hole is growing. The more players leave, the greater the chance that others will not play it. And besides this, the circle of these buyers will sooner or later be reduced to a minimum or even zero value. And then it will be too late to fix something.

A few years ago, the zos said they were heading for beginners and those who love quests. It is expected that after so many years the first symptoms of this black hole appeared. Most people reacted negatively to blackwood and high isle, sales were minimal. It's just that no one wanted to play quests in MMOs, people come to MMOs for group content and communication.

Necrom is a clear proof of this - they had to overcome themselves, worsening the quality of quests for the sake of game mechanics, variety and new gameplay. For the first time, for an entire zone, you can get a huge amount of different collectibles, not only from archeology, but also for quests; Overland is made with veterans or experienced players in mind, not beginners; in the new trial, they added a mount for trifecta as before (it's better then skins or just titules); added a new class and balanced it relatively well for release (seriously. An amazing job was done for the arcanist compared to the necromancer and warden. It remains only to polish it with updates to a better balance); stopped doing the kind of activity by changing the entire combat of the game in the bud, and then returning it back a year later, but made real improvements for the classes; they began to addnot a ugly "paintwork", but at least something new to the krownstore. (Add some this cool things for achievments, don't put so much into the crownstore! People are not rich).

As an old player, I really liked this update for many years of playing. Not like a summerset, but it will definitely take an honorable second place. The Zos still have a lot of work to do. Casuals, beginners and inexperienced players will complain about the deterioration of the game "for them" for a long time to come. And this is expected, for so many years. But if this trend continues, the old players will come back and the negative comments will subside. <<A good product requires silence, painstaking and inspired work from the master>>.

Zos should not listen to all players. They just have to draw conclusions and think for themselves how it will be better. It is impossible to come to an ideal, something will always be better or worse. But you can get close to it. Therefore, there will be sales, they just need to try harder for this, so that the players love them.

I liked this update. Go on zos, make the game the most delicious cake of all in the range. Hard work awaits you.

Supreme_Atromancer

The thing is, there's *not* two types of people in the world.

Elder Scrolls Online means a lot of things to a lot of different people. Paul Sage's goal of "bringing the Elder Scrolls fan and the MMO fan together" was *always* going to be fraught; they are so utterly antagonistic. Guess what, it still is today.

You tell a bunch of people that they are going to get the quintessential Elder Scrolls experience, plaster billboards everywhere with scenes of heroes standing in Skyrim-esque backdrops, and making promotional videos showing heavy armoured sorcerers roleplay walking through the world, and then titling it "THIS IS ESO" you can't be surprised when the people who bought into that vision have opinions about what is getting developed.

Not everyone was asking for a new class at all. And of those that were, it was never going to be a fact that everyone would be unanimously happy with how it was executed. Speaking as if there is one, concerted voice expressing alternating, contradictory things is a mistake in your own judgement, and if its the source of your exasperation, it probably needs a little more reflection.

I don't disagree that there are probably some people who will always be unhappy, but most feel like their thoughts and criticisms are valid. Don't forget, by the dev's own admission, the game practically failed at launch. They did need to judiciously listen to what people think, because, as humans themselves, they don't always get it right. Let people have their complaints and put their thoughts.