PVP and PVE shouldn't affect, collide or be balanced around each other ..

Eliran

I won't name them but literally all the top MMO's around figured the fact that PVP and PVE should never collide years ago, in fact, the most popular one did it before ESO was even released.

Yet here in ESO, we still having this problem where some classes made useless in PVE (Nightblades especially) because in PVP people don't know how to handle them.

And by all means, the entire game and classes are balanced around PVP mainly and PVE is a sidekick, which is inconceivable, should be exactly the other way around, especially considering the content difference between the two.

That said, just like in other MMO's, PVE gear should become OBSOLETE in PVP and PVP gear should become OBSOLETE in PVE, that alone would solve most balance problems in PVP and make it much easier to balance around.

At the same time, in NO WAY shape or form, abilities should be nerfed in PVE because they are OP in PVP and vice versa .. those 2 worlds should never collide.

Don't like a specific ability in PVP? either disable it or tune it down in PVP, aka make it have different stats in PVP as soon as you go into a PVP area.

Honestly I am really getting tired of explaining people the obvious fact but there is just no justification to ANY of the nerfs Nightblades had in the last 2 years PVE wise, the class literally got butchered and killed in PVE repeatedly because of PVP reasons. (Though this post is about all classes not just NB's)

In additional, people need to understand that ESO PVP and ESO PVE are 2 different games under the same title, therefore a balance between the 2 is practically impossible, not the same rules, gameplay or content in any shape or form.

Please don't ignore this post, this is the biggest reason this game is not appealing to so many people, I know so many friends over the years who went away specifically for the reasons above ..

Thanks for reading!

FeedbackOnly

Why not the combat section?

How did nightblades become useless?

Where's the number crunching to prove nightblades are useless dps class compared to the rest of classes?

Are you talking about just dps, because there's 3 official roles in the game

There's not enough information for us to rally our emotional support behind you here.

Ragnarok0130

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Are you talking about just dps, because there's 3 official roles in the game

PVE Heals are often adversely impacted based on PVP balancing requests. Radiating Regeneration went from must slot skill for healers in PVE to a situational skill after U35 when it was heavily nerfed based on PVP complaints about cross healing. I'd wager that healing is one of the PVE areas most frequently negatively affected by this PVP/PVE balancing dichotomy so I agree with the OP that PVE and PVP should be balanced completely separately as it truly is a zero sum game when you've balancing PVP and PVE together instead of separately.

Braffin

Totally agree with OP.

Thing is, well-versed people out of both worlds are telling zos exactly this for almost ten years now. Unfortunately devs are exceptional stubborn regarding this solution and prefer to "balance" things in a way, which is upsetting both populations regularily.

mb10

I played the final fantasy mmo for a bit.
PVP in ESO as a mode is better and still no where near its potential but the cool thing about FF was that the PVP skills and how they worked were completely different to PVE

ESO_player123

No opinion about the nightblades, but I agree that PvP and PvE should be balanced separately.

Hurbster

Oh absolutely they should be balanced separately. I always though that was what Battle Spirit was meant to to.

opalcity

I would be more involved in pvp if there was a hard wall between the two. Either you have totally different gear load out, which is saved in inventory slots on the armory, or the gear you have has different effects in the different zones.

If a gear or skill needs balancing in one zone, it shouldn't automatically effect the other.

Aka_

Simple solution: "When Battle Spirit is active... [Different stats or effects here]"

Will they do that? Nah.

TaSheen

Aka_ wrote: »

Simple solution: "When Battle Spirit is active... [Different stats or effects here]"

Will they do that? Nah.

Yeah. It's beyond me that they won't utilize what's already in the game.

Alinhbo_Tyaka

You are preaching to the choir. Many a thread has been opened that PvP and PvE need to be balanced separately. With the exception of dueling all PvP is instanced so there really is no excuse for not loading damage tables that are balanced for PvP when entering an instance and loading PvE for any other time.

El_Borracho

@FeedbackOnly I wouldn't go so far as to say "useless," but nightblades from 2 years ago might as well be a totally different class than nightblades today. Skills like Ambush, Reaper's Mark, and Cripple have been repeatedly nerfed that they are either not used anymore or are put on niche builds. Incap is a fraction of what it once was, as is the healing. And this is only for PVE, all of which was spurred by changes to balance PVP.

Just because nightblades are a viable class does not mean the changes in PVE were warranted. If anything, nightblades are viable because of the changes ESO made to necros, templars, and wardens, elevating the gimped nightblade. They are the direct inverse to what ESO has done with the DK, taking a marginal class and elevating it to the top of the food chain.

FeedbackOnly

El_Borracho wrote: »

@FeedbackOnly I wouldn't go so far as to say "useless," but nightblades from 2 years ago might as well be a totally different class than nightblades today. Skills like Ambush, Reaper's Mark, and Cripple have been repeatedly nerfed that they are either not used anymore or are put on niche builds. Incap is a fraction of what it once was, as is the healing. And this is only for PVE, all of which was spurred by changes to balance PVP.

Just because nightblades are a viable class does not mean the changes in PVE were warranted. If anything, nightblades are viable because of the changes ESO made to necros, templars, and wardens, elevating the gimped nightblade. They are the direct inverse to what ESO has done with the DK, taking a marginal class and elevating it to the top of the food chain.

I saw another post about necromancer being worst class. If people want change then they got compare it or give better analysis

@El_Borracho

🤣. Same week I complained about sorc ultimate only going on 6 and potentially arcantist getting 12...change happened. Hey maybe it was already planned but who knows but the divine know

If something you truly believe is unfair then showcase it better. Think about each class can do any role, while dps can do magicka or stamina. Then you times that by 2 because each can do PvE or pvp. Testing can only go so far, so it's easier to overlook something

El_Borracho

@FeedbackOnly I didn't say its unfair, I'd say changes are haphazard at times and knee-jerk reactions to others. But overall, I have never thought that PVE should effect skills for PVP and vice versa. They are 2 different playstyles.

I primarily played DK and nightblade since I started playing ESO with Morrowind. At the time, stamblades were at the top of the DPS pyramid while DKs were low-middle. 6 years later and the roles are totally reversed. Don't need numbers or statistics or videos for that reality. Been enjoying the DK roller coaster of late.

As for me, I just move on to another alt and wait for the pendulum to swing back, sometimes it just takes a really long time.

Castagere

This has been asked about for years and ZOS just ignores it. I have a feeling it has to do with some gear sets and how they work too. Plaguebreak was great in PVE but they killed it.

kargen27

I disagree that the game is balanced around PvP. The biggest changes to combat were made in response to PvE performance.

I wouldn't mind more skills differentiating between player targets and non-player targets. The skills shouldn't change though based on what zone the player is in. People go to farm Imperial City and the Sewers and forcing PvP oriented skills on to me isn't a good idea.

PvP and PvE should not be completely separated. It wouldn't be good for the game. It is healthy for the game that some PvP skills work well for PvE and that some sets gained through PvE activities are desired in PvP.

Sometimes a fix seems to come down as response to the PvP side but makes sense also on the PvE side. The PvP crowd was vocal about some sneak tactics that were getting out of hand. Those same skills were/are being used to skip content in dungeons. The fix looked to fix both problems. Skipping mass amounts of dungeon content to rush to the end probably wasn't what developers had in mind so a fix to PvP was also a fix to PvE.

And sure some sets worked great in PvE (Plaguebreak being an example provided) but that doesn't mean the sets were working as intended for PvE. The changes to that set could have easily been about PvE performance as much as it was about PvP performance. The PvP crowd was loud about a change being needed but that doesn't mean only PvP was considered and it just happened to affect PvE.

Vaqual

The fact that a build plays and feels almost exactly the same in PvE and PvP in terms of CDs, effetc strengths (e.g. numbers of debuffs removed), skill durations, max targets, etc. is major appeal for me. When I put a set on a character it directly affects the playstyle, modifying the individual experience. This customizability combined with the transferability between game modes is a major strength of ESO in my eyes. Build design is part of the roleplay experience and being able to both preserve your characters identity across gamemodes, as well as getting "a feel" for your build independent of the gamemode is a huge plus in to me.

Breaking up this direct link between modes can be beneficial, but in the end I see it as a lazy way of dealing with imbalance. Of course it is not forbidden to adapt your build according to the sitation if the situation should call for it, but for example stuff like swapping gear to prebuff or using various builds for trashpulls are atrocities from a roleplay perspective. If players want to do that that is completely OK, but if you can't bring half the sets anymore for both modes because they are designed as overly appealing for mode A and useless for mode B that just becomes tedious, limits build variety and favours the "meta-chasing mentality". Bringing the best for the challenge and being able to bring what you have at all are two completely different problems.

Eliran wrote: »

In additional, people need to understand that ESO PVP and ESO PVE are 2 different games under the same title, therefore a balance between the 2 is practically impossible, not the same rules, gameplay or content in any shape or form.

I don't see how balance-splitting would even help those people.

I know many players here are of the opinion that each class belongs a bit more into its own niche and think that is a sign for "class identity", but I could not disagree more. You can make playstyles overlap, but you don't have to. The buildcrafting in ESO is great and purposefully deleting options by assigning them to a certain gamemode is a needless mistake. The benefit on the balancing will likely be swept away with with the next batch of overpowered items and misguided class reworks.

Adressing the "other MMOs": Since you do not name them it is diffcult to make a good argument, but I have played enough of them to have a good idea about some of the approaches they took. And I think they are s**t:

1) PvP-only stats (with or without gear quality levels): unfair advantage for players who play more PvP, completely desincentivices PvP for casual players. Found in older MMOs, adds absolutely nothing to the game experience

2) Effect modification: can be used to easily adjust overperforming elements, takes away from the transferability of the build. The question is: why would you need to resort to this? Why should something be considered balanced in one mode and broken in another? Why can it not just be adjusted for both modes? Why would something need to be so good in PvE that is is overpowered in PvP? There is simply no need for that. Adjusting PvE content to suit power-potential of the available gear/skill options is just as easy and it does not harm the game experience as much as splitting sets/skills between modes.

To conclude this: Messing up the coherence between PvE and PvP doesn't magically guarantee good balancing and it for sure going to be at least inconvenient, if not severly detrimental to the game experience. Every unbalanced element in the game can be fixed in smart and easy ways, the forums are filled with good suggestions of seasoned players. And if other MMOs offer what you need and ESO doesn't, just play those other MMOs. To me this sometimes feels a bit like those threads from people who ask for all this flashy anime stuff to be included in ESO, completely disregarding the identity of the existing product.

Xandreia_

Us pvp'ers have been saying this for years, all they have to do is utilise the pvp debuff (battle spirit) but changing values in there so what ever needs changing can be done with that. That would be the best way to differentiate between what's needed in pvp and pve separately. We don't want to nerf things for pve but zos just don't listen to our feedback about this. Pvp'ers don't want this divide between community's but because of zos's continued failure to take on board our feedback there's this thing of "it's X fault this got nerfed"

JanTanhide

Agree 100%. No such thing as "balance" in the PVP world of ESO. It's just not possible unless PVP and PVE are completely separated. But for some reason ZOS refuses to do so which hurts both PVE and PVP. It pits one side against the other and that should not happen.

Scaletho

FINALLY! Someone said it.

Totally agree. ZOS should stop harming PVE improvements by regarding it as a sidekick to PVP demands.

Eliran

I just want to play my class and have fun, not being told by everyone is horrible in Trials because people in PVP think they are the center of the universe on their repetitive content ..

What kind of solution is that to simply destroy it 100% and make it obsolete in PVE?

And nightblades aren't the only victims of this ill practice, other classes suffer the same.

WuffyCerulei

Very much agree. Battle Spirit is there to have pvp-specific buffs and debuffs. Certain changes could be made to various skills and whatnot, but have these changes require Battle Spirit to be active so PVE is not affected.

merpins

I agree with a lot of what you said and disagree elsewhere.

I've advocated for PVP and PVE to be balanced separately since the game came out. If you check my posts you'll see so. But that's it. They should be balanced separately. Is a PVE set, that wasn't intended for PVP, too influential in PVP but just right in PVE? Then don't nerf the set for both. Make it as part of the balancing that it works differently in PVP, don't touch it in PVE. That doesn't mean make PVP attained sets not work in PVE, and PVE sets not work in PVP. That will kill build diversity in both sides. This just means make sets that are problems for PVP work differently there, and vice verse. I can think of several examples of PVP sets that help PVE, and PVE sets that help PVP. Deadly is a great set for Arcanist and Templar, and removing that set from PVE removes a playstyle from those two classes, heck, it might even just be the final nail in the coffin for templar! Stuff like that.

So yes, balance it separately. But balance it correctly, and not lazily.

Eliran

merpins wrote: »

I agree with a lot of what you said and disagree elsewhere.

I've advocated for PVP and PVE to be balanced separately since the game came out. If you check my posts you'll see so. But that's it. They should be balanced separately. Is a PVE set, that wasn't intended for PVP, too influential in PVP but just right in PVE? Then don't nerf the set for both. Make it as part of the balancing that it works differently in PVP, don't touch it in PVE. That doesn't mean make PVP attained sets not work in PVE, and PVE sets not work in PVP. That will kill build diversity in both sides. This just means make sets that are problems for PVP work differently there, and vice verse. I can think of several examples of PVP sets that help PVE, and PVE sets that help PVP. Deadly is a great set for Arcanist and Templar, and removing that set from PVE removes a playstyle from those two classes, heck, it might even just be the final nail in the coffin for templar! Stuff like that.

So yes, balance it separately. But balance it correctly, and not lazily.

Just disable all PVE sets in PVP and vice versa ..

Though it seems like a wet dream that will never happen as I see no attention coming from any dev

FayJolyn

Yep I agree. Having skills and sets be balanced around situations that are very different from each other just proves to be impossible. It kills build diversity and people get very frustrated if their favorite sets gets nerfed for which they grinded so long/ True balance is an impossible task but the devs now just make it more difficult for themselves to balance at all. The current meta is also a result of that.

Diminish

FayJolyn wrote: »

Yep I agree. Having skills and sets be balanced around situations that are very different from each other just proves to be impossible. It kills build diversity and people get very frustrated if their favorite sets gets nerfed for which they grinded so long/ True balance is an impossible task but the devs now just make it more difficult for themselves to balance at all. The current meta is also a result of that.

I'll preface my response by saying I am sure there is are a total of at least 4 people who share my overall opinion on the state of ESO nowadays Anyways, you know what killed build diversity? Hybridization causing the homogenization of players. Player choice needs a major buff... in both PvE and PvP

If you make a poor choice when choosing a race, class, or gear combination and you under perform then make smarter choices next time. Yeah, you read that correctly. I said it, and most of you likely wont agree, and that is fine. I guess an easy way to achieve the "play how you want" mantra was to minimize the impact player choice actually has in the game.

Prior to the hybridization of the game, "QoL" features like the collection book, etc. I would have been here agreeing with balancing PvE and PvP separately, but with the current state and direction of the game one has to ask, does it even really matter at this point? Buffs/Nerfs are nowhere near as impactful on the end player, or the game as a whole like they were years ago. It is so quick and easy to just jump to the next cookie cutter meta build that I just don't see the point in continuing to beat this dead horse request of balancing the two separately over and over again. If they didn't already take player feedback into account yet, after the MANY years this has been requested (especially when buffs/nerfs had much greater impact on players), what makes you think they will now?

I have a crazy request.. Revert the champion point system back to individual character veteran levels, and remove the collection book. If I make a stupid race/class/gear choice because it is "what I want to play", rather than "what is most optimal" then I deserve the right to under perform. When they do that, then we can start beating this PvE/PvP balance horse again. Choices should have consequences, both good and bad, but they really don't anymore. Finding value in the hundreds of hours I put in on a character is a great feeling. I can go delete a character right now, and in 3 hours have a completely new character leveled up to CP, fully geared out, and performing on par with someone who has hundreds, and sometimes thousands of hours on a similar character... but hey, lets continue to worry about PvE/PvP balancing like it is game breaking. The best part of "build diversity" in the game anymore is literally when ZOS nukes a set or a skills into oblivion and shakes up the meta.

Tyrant_Tim

PvP and PvE should either be fully balanced together, or fully not, there’s no two ways about it. Why there’s any problem with the balance; is that they aren’t fully committed one way or the other.

Also, Nightblade supports have never been stronger, you can apply Minor Vulnerability in an AoE gap closer, Minor Cowardice to enemies in an AoE buff, a Magicka Steal root/snare, Major Cowardice in an uncapped AoE hard stun, and Major Expedition with Minor Endurance and Intellect baked into an AoE heal… all of which supporting the team.

Name one buff that’s as unique as Major or Minor Cowardice that any of the other classes provide to the group as a flavor to already great support skills, outside of the Arcanist AoE Minor Courage buff.

SimonThesis

They certainly could expand battlespirit to help balance between pve/pvp. When they made a pvp set Plaguebreak a pvp only set all the Pvers complained. Nightblades are currently the strongest healers and one of the best dps classes in pvp but not that great in pve.

Hapexamendios

It makes too much sense which is why it'll never happen.

Eliran

SimonThesis wrote: »

They certainly could expand battlespirit to help balance between pve/pvp. When they made a pvp set Plaguebreak a pvp only set all the Pvers complained. Nightblades are currently the strongest healers and one of the best dps classes in pvp but not that great in pve.

Nightblades are one of the worst DDs in PVE atm, you could probably count less than 5 who actively progress right now as far as I can tell .. (I know of only 3 including me)

The entire concept of this post is the fact no one cares they are OP in PVP, you shouldn't make them useless in PVE, especially with game breaking nerfs ..

Hapexamendios wrote: »

It makes too much sense which is why it'll never happen.

Sad but true.