Make Redguards great again (racial passives)

Legate_Lanius

I always play chadguards in Elder Scrolls games, even in ESO way back when it was released.

Sadly it seems in 2016, developpers changed a lot of passives. Making the supposedly great warriors of Tamriel be bottom of the barrel for stamina builds (magicka is worse since the passives are not at all built for it).

Khajiits got damage boosts, and overall it’s better to even choose a dark elf / high elf over a redguard. Now I’m fine with choices but Christ sake, how come the redguards don’t get any meaningful change to make them more useful and desirable ?

I came back for Necrom, thinking I’d make a redguard arcanist only to see there’s only 2 passives that synergize well (recovery of stam = +5% weapon damage for 10s). I ended up going for Imperial since it’s the human race that is less left behind.

Sure you could say it only really matters in highend content, but still you shouldn’t gimp yourself just with aesthetic choices.

Why not remove the passives, create a system that would be basically a backstory for our characters. Allowing US to choose passives we want within certain limits to avoid OP builds. You’d get something good for RP and freedom of choice (thought it was the trademark of Elder Scrolls) with a single stone.

Think about it.

colossalvoids

Redguard is indeed ended up a lackluster one since that rework, more so indirectly as sustain became a non issue at the same time yet again, literally next patch as I remember and it's got only worse since. Sustain wasn't that desirable in that exact patch either but was more welcomed still.

Just remembering most people needing one regen glyph to sustain, basically giving sustain races a chance to run full damage and it would be preferred way for me personally making it more evened out.

StarOfElyon

Time to share my thoughts again 😄

StarOfElyon wrote: »

These are some tweaks I would like to see made to the Redguards's passives. Hopefully, they will be seen as reasonable among the devs. They keep in mind the Redguards's reputation for endurance (stamina return) and discipline (reduced ability cost).

"The Redguards of Hammerfell are talented and athletic warriors, born to battle. A desert people, their ancestors migrated to Tamriel from the lost continent of Yokuda. Their culture is based on preserving ancient traditions and defying their harsh environment. They prize honor and dignity above all else, combining a deep reverence for the divine with a suspicion of all things magical. Their capital is the merchant port of Sentinel, but their roots are deep in the sands of the Alik'r Desert. In their youth, Redguards endure a rite of passage in the desolate wastes of Alik'r as a test of endurance and discipline. Only the strongest survive." https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Redguard

PASSIVES:

Wayfarer - Increases your experience gain with the One Hand and Shield skill line by 15%. Increases the duration of any eaten food by 15 minutes.

*Martial Training - Reduces the stamina cost of your abilities by 6%. Reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 15%.

Redguards need help as a stamina sustain race. Reduced stamina cost across the board seems fitting.

Conditioning - Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.

*Adrenaline Rush - When you deal or take damage, you restore 603 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 3 seconds.

A big problem with the old version of this passive is that it was way too active, requiring you to spend resources to get resources back. It causes problems when you're not in a position to deal damage. No damage; no sustain. This change makes the "adrenaline rush" passive more "passive" and is still tied to being in combat. This also reinforces their reputation for endurance, "the ability to withstand hardship or adversity."

StarOfElyon wrote: »

If I was to choose any potential damage passive for the Redguards to receive, it would probably be a boost to weapon passives.

SkaraMinoc

I played a Team Deathmatch the other day on Istirus Outpost Arena. During the countdown at the start of the match, someone in group chat said, "Redguard, seriously? we lose LOL". I took that as evidence that Redguard is universally accepted to be one of the worst PvP races in the game.

merpins

I think they should keep interesting racial passives that are flavorful, like the first skill in each race. Like argonians swimming faster, or khajiit being better pickpockets and harder to detect. But implement Birthsigns like in Oblivion. Obviously, we have the standing stones which are inspired by ES5, which was made to replace Birthsigns. But I think ESO needs birthsigns, just to make racial choices still flavorful, but not impactful to builds. They could give each race a bunch of bonuses that you unlock with levels that don't effect combat as much, and leave the combat stuff to your Birthsign.

Redguards, for example, could be built around the weapon skill lines, getting bonuses to earning weapon skill line exp, cost reduction for weapon skill line skills, and more charges on weapon glyphs.

Argonians could keep their water movement speed, get a small exp bonus from exp potions, bonuses to leveling up provisioning and alchemy, and have a chance to get extra harvests from water and plant nodes.

Khajiit could keep their pickpocket and detection radius bonuses, but also get an increased movement speed while in sneak, get better rewards from chests and thieves troves, and get bonus damage to unarmed.

Orc could keep their movement speed, but gain bonuses to earning crafting exp for woodworking and blacksmiting, reduce the cost of stamina skills for the first 5 seconds of combat...

I could go on with all other races. But you get the idea; if a skill gives a combat benefit, it shouldn't be damage and should be specific to things that race is good at. The better combat bonuses we're used to would be from your birthsign.

As for birthsigns, the naming conventions could tie back to the origin races that they came from rather than what's currently used for standing stones. For example, "Two Moons" birthsign would be the original Khajiit skills, "Hist Blessing" would be argonian, "Red Mountain" would be Dark Elf, "Malacath's Rage" would be Orc... Stuff like that. They could also be diversified further with some new skills to make all of them good choices. But still.

Roylund

This was my idea to make Redguards competitive while still retaining their "weapon master" identity:

Martial Training - Reduces the cost of weapon abilities by 12%. Doubles the bonuses obtained from weapons when using weapon skills.

Reasoning:
Weapon cost reduction is far more specific than magicka or stamina reduction. The bonus should be much higher than what Bretons and Imperials have. If Redguards are martial masters and fearsome warriors then they should also have bonuses tied to how destructively they wield those weapons. Do sword swings just feel lighter to them or are they actually employing their expertise to deal more damage? Doubling weapon bonuses like mace pen, sword dmg, dagger crit, etc. I think is fair in light that Redguards have ZERO defensive bonuses (no resistance of any kind, no health passive), that the bonus is lost upon switching to a different weapon, and that the bonus only applies to weapon skills. The number itself could be tweaked but the idea should remain.

With how strong this passive should be I think they can keep the other two passives as they are. And before people bring up how sustain races shouldn't have damage in their passives, Wood Elves get pen and stam regen.

StarOfElyon

Roylund wrote: »

This was my idea to make Redguards competitive while still retaining their "weapon master" identity:

Martial Training - Reduces the cost of weapon abilities by 12%. Doubles the bonuses obtained from weapons when using weapon skills.

Reasoning:
Weapon cost reduction is far more specific than magicka or stamina reduction. The bonus should be much higher than what Bretons and Imperials have. If Redguards are martial masters and fearsome warriors then they should also have bonuses tied to how destructively they wield those weapons. Do sword swings just feel lighter to them or are they actually employing their expertise to deal more damage? Doubling weapon bonuses like mace pen, sword dmg, dagger crit, etc. I think is fair in light that Redguards have ZERO defensive bonuses (no resistance of any kind, no health passive), that the bonus is lost upon switching to a different weapon, and that the bonus only applies to weapon skills. The number itself could be tweaked but the idea should remain.

With how strong this passive should be I think they can keep the other two passives as they are. And before people bring up how sustain races shouldn't have damage in their passives, Wood Elves get pen and stam regen.

I use like two weapon skills combined on both my Redguard characters so this passive does nothing for me.

chessalavakia_ESO

Roylund wrote: »

This was my idea to make Redguards competitive while still retaining their "weapon master" identity:

Martial Training - Reduces the cost of weapon abilities by 12%. Doubles the bonuses obtained from weapons when using weapon skills.

Reasoning:
Weapon cost reduction is far more specific than magicka or stamina reduction. The bonus should be much higher than what Bretons and Imperials have. If Redguards are martial masters and fearsome warriors then they should also have bonuses tied to how destructively they wield those weapons. Do sword swings just feel lighter to them or are they actually employing their expertise to deal more damage? Doubling weapon bonuses like mace pen, sword dmg, dagger crit, etc. I think is fair in light that Redguards have ZERO defensive bonuses (no resistance of any kind, no health passive), that the bonus is lost upon switching to a different weapon, and that the bonus only applies to weapon skills. The number itself could be tweaked but the idea should remain.

With how strong this passive should be I think they can keep the other two passives as they are. And before people bring up how sustain races shouldn't have damage in their passives, Wood Elves get pen and stam regen.

Could that potentially make the uptime on Shield Discipline be too high?

Roylund

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Roylund wrote: »

This was my idea to make Redguards competitive while still retaining their "weapon master" identity:

Martial Training - Reduces the cost of weapon abilities by 12%. Doubles the bonuses obtained from weapons when using weapon skills.

Reasoning:
Weapon cost reduction is far more specific than magicka or stamina reduction. The bonus should be much higher than what Bretons and Imperials have. If Redguards are martial masters and fearsome warriors then they should also have bonuses tied to how destructively they wield those weapons. Do sword swings just feel lighter to them or are they actually employing their expertise to deal more damage? Doubling weapon bonuses like mace pen, sword dmg, dagger crit, etc. I think is fair in light that Redguards have ZERO defensive bonuses (no resistance of any kind, no health passive), that the bonus is lost upon switching to a different weapon, and that the bonus only applies to weapon skills. The number itself could be tweaked but the idea should remain.

With how strong this passive should be I think they can keep the other two passives as they are. And before people bring up how sustain races shouldn't have damage in their passives, Wood Elves get pen and stam regen.

I use like two weapon skills combined on both my Redguard characters so this passive does nothing for me.

What do you mean? It's more damage on those two weapon skills on top of the sustain Redguard already has. In PvE stam classes are using Carve, Stampede, DW cloak, Rending Slashes sometimes, Arrow Barrage and this would buff all of that damage ON TOP of Redguards still having sustain. In PvP a ton of builds use D Swing + Executioner or Rending Slashes + DW Cloak. I don't know what you're complaining about lol, you literally admit you're using two weapon skills. You get the Redguard sustain and more damage. What is there to complain about?

StarOfElyon

Roylund wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Roylund wrote: »

This was my idea to make Redguards competitive while still retaining their "weapon master" identity:

Martial Training - Reduces the cost of weapon abilities by 12%. Doubles the bonuses obtained from weapons when using weapon skills.

Reasoning:
Weapon cost reduction is far more specific than magicka or stamina reduction. The bonus should be much higher than what Bretons and Imperials have. If Redguards are martial masters and fearsome warriors then they should also have bonuses tied to how destructively they wield those weapons. Do sword swings just feel lighter to them or are they actually employing their expertise to deal more damage? Doubling weapon bonuses like mace pen, sword dmg, dagger crit, etc. I think is fair in light that Redguards have ZERO defensive bonuses (no resistance of any kind, no health passive), that the bonus is lost upon switching to a different weapon, and that the bonus only applies to weapon skills. The number itself could be tweaked but the idea should remain.

With how strong this passive should be I think they can keep the other two passives as they are. And before people bring up how sustain races shouldn't have damage in their passives, Wood Elves get pen and stam regen.

I use like two weapon skills combined on both my Redguard characters so this passive does nothing for me.

What do you mean? It's more damage on those two weapon skills on top of the sustain Redguard already has. In PvE stam classes are using Carve, Stampede, DW cloak, Rending Slashes sometimes, Arrow Barrage and this would buff all of that damage ON TOP of Redguards still having sustain. In PvP a ton of builds use D Swing + Executioner or Rending Slashes + DW Cloak. I don't know what you're complaining about lol, you literally admit you're using two weapon skills. You get the Redguard sustain and more damage. What is there to complain about?

In PVP I use two weapon skills so I would much prefer a general reduced cost to stamina skills. That would do me much more good.

I do use more in PVE:

On my first Reduard when she's specced for PVE, the only weapons skills she uses are
1. Unstable Wall
2. Quick Cloak
3. Rapid Strikes
4. Whirling Blades

On my second Redguard, I use only
1. Healing Springs

Like I said, I would much rather have a general reduced cost to stamina skills than be pigeon holed into using weapon skills. Dependence on weapon skills kills class identity.

Stncold

Roylund wrote: »

What do you mean? It's more damage on those two weapon skills on top of the sustain Redguard already has. In PvE stam classes are using Carve, Stampede, DW cloak, Rending Slashes sometimes, Arrow Barrage and this would buff all of that damage ON TOP of Redguards still having sustain. In PvP a ton of builds use D Swing + Executioner or Rending Slashes + DW Cloak. I don't know what you're complaining about lol, you literally admit you're using two weapon skills. You get the Redguard sustain and more damage. What is there to complain about?

Balancing and skills used by builds are changing all the time. Right now weapon skills are strong and many builds are using them. It's unlikely to stay that way forever though and the passive would become useless and redguards would go back to being in the dumpster. It would also exclude builds and classes that don't use weapon spammables or abilities.
A general stamina reduction is just better overall for long-term.

AlterBlika

Redguard is a pretty niche race, you can't just say they're completely useless. They have insane sustain if you build around weapon skills. For example, wood elves and imperials just wouldn't work with my solo build in the most tense encounters.

I would really like another race passives revamp. Magickas have breton that reduces all magicka costs, gives some mitigation from all spell attacks, and some recovery on top. Kind of a dedicated sustain race, yeah? While staminas don't have any - redguard is weapon based and therefore niche, wood elf is worse sustain-wise than breton.

Kory

I like playing as a Redguard in Elder Scrolls games, but I got into pvp here and had to switch to a Dunmer. Makes a huge difference. I hope Redguards get a buff.

StarOfElyon

AlterBlika wrote: »

Redguard is a pretty niche race, you can't just say they're completely useless. They have insane sustain if you build around weapon skills. For example, wood elves and imperials just wouldn't work with my solo build in the most tense encounters.

I would really like another race passives revamp. Magickas have breton that reduces all magicka costs, gives some mitigation from all spell attacks, and some recovery on top. Kind of a dedicated sustain race, yeah? While staminas don't have any - redguard is weapon based and therefore niche, wood elf is worse sustain-wise than breton.

I don't think any of the races should be "niche".

Redguards_Revenge

AlterBlika wrote: »

Redguard is a pretty niche race, you can't just say they're completely useless. They have insane sustain if you build around weapon skills. For example, wood elves and imperials just wouldn't work with my solo build in the most tense encounters.

I would really like another race passives revamp. Magickas have breton that reduces all magicka costs, gives some mitigation from all spell attacks, and some recovery on top. Kind of a dedicated sustain race, yeah? While staminas don't have any - redguard is weapon based and therefore niche, wood elf is worse sustain-wise than breton.

Do you know why my name is redguards_revenge? It was to protest the useless passives ZoS gave redguards. Their sustain only looks good on paper, in practice it's worthless. It feels like an insult to my intelligence every time I see those passives.

I'd go through step by step how most of the redguards passives are worthless but I've done that already. ZoS doesn't seem to want to budge on that.

Since other races have certain things, it allows for some of them to easily add sustain that is close to redguard's passives. While keeping their power.

The reverse is not true.

Redguard is completely useless.

Kory

There were a couple Redguard threads I read a some time ago explaining how Wood Elf stamina sustain is ideal because it can be buffed by anything, obviously upscaling your actual stats for stamina recovery way more than the Redguard passive can, as a result you can recover more stamina.

Considered being "unmatched in martial prowess" meanwhile all elf races have either weapon and spell damage or penetration in addition to max stats mag or stam or both... I don't get it.

Stx

It’s hilarious that the racials in this game give you so many stats but have been this imbalanced for so long now. They should have rebalanced the racials years and years ago.

Tyrant_Tim

Kory wrote: »

I like playing as a Redguard in Elder Scrolls games, but I got into pvp here and had to switch to a Dunmer. Makes a huge difference. I hope Redguards get a buff.

What class were you playing? Because some classes have horrible sustain and Redguard works great on them in PvP.

Like on Templar, Necromancer, and Warden.

Everywhere else, yeah, the race is kind of weak, but for those three classes, it does well, and only in that specific environment, it becomes even more substantial in Battlegrounds and other no-CP content.

Kory

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Kory wrote: »

I like playing as a Redguard in Elder Scrolls games, but I got into pvp here and had to switch to a Dunmer. Makes a huge difference. I hope Redguards get a buff.

What class were you playing? Because some classes have horrible sustain and Redguard works great on them in PvP.

Like on Templar, Necromancer, and Warden.

Everywhere else, yeah, the race is kind of weak, but for those three classes, it does well, and only in that specific environment, it becomes even more substantial in Battlegrounds and other no-CP content.

Well I switched my Redguard nightblade to a dark elf after being recommended to go wood elf, Orc, Khajjit, or dark elf. Also I switched from Redguard to Nord on my Dragonknight. These turned out to be good improvements with no big issue with stamina sustain.

Tyrant_Tim

Kory wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Kory wrote: »

I like playing as a Redguard in Elder Scrolls games, but I got into pvp here and had to switch to a Dunmer. Makes a huge difference. I hope Redguards get a buff.

What class were you playing? Because some classes have horrible sustain and Redguard works great on them in PvP.

Like on Templar, Necromancer, and Warden.

Everywhere else, yeah, the race is kind of weak, but for those three classes, it does well, and only in that specific environment, it becomes even more substantial in Battlegrounds and other no-CP content.

Well I switched my Redguard nightblade to a dark elf after being recommended to go wood elf, Orc, Khajjit, or dark elf. Also I switched from Redguard to Nord on my Dragonknight. These turned out to be good improvements with no big issue with stamina sustain.

Right, those classes do well on sustain naturally. It would be a waste to be a Redguard as any class other than the three I mentioned, and even then, an experienced player outgrows the need for sustain from racial passives while you can never have too much damage.

ArcaneScientius

Comparing the altmer weapon damage added on top of their spell damage bonus, to make altmer warriors more viable, to redguard bonuses, just give redguard weapon and spell strength.

Replace adrenaline rush:
When you deal damage, you restore 1005 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.
with: -->
Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258.

Now they are weapon masters with built-in cost reduction from martial training. Some benefit to redguard mages, which is not my intention, but they are still outclassed by almost any other race for mages.

kyatos_binarini

races should not have any skills at all (maybe the first passives could exist since they don’t affect combat) to let us play any race we want

Kory

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Kory wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Kory wrote: »

I like playing as a Redguard in Elder Scrolls games, but I got into pvp here and had to switch to a Dunmer. Makes a huge difference. I hope Redguards get a buff.

What class were you playing? Because some classes have horrible sustain and Redguard works great on them in PvP.

Like on Templar, Necromancer, and Warden.

Everywhere else, yeah, the race is kind of weak, but for those three classes, it does well, and only in that specific environment, it becomes even more substantial in Battlegrounds and other no-CP content.

Well I switched my Redguard nightblade to a dark elf after being recommended to go wood elf, Orc, Khajjit, or dark elf. Also I switched from Redguard to Nord on my Dragonknight. These turned out to be good improvements with no big issue with stamina sustain.

Right, those classes do well on sustain naturally. It would be a waste to be a Redguard as any class other than the three I mentioned, and even then, an experienced player outgrows the need for sustain from racial passives while you can never have too much damage.

"even then, an experienced player outgrows the need for sustain from racial passives while you can never have too much damage."

Which is why these experienced players never mention or recommend Redguard as a base no matter what class it is. The races with damage buffs that can be upscaled in stats on the character sheets from any source/sets/CP/mythics in the game are always a key choice.

Tyrant_Tim

Kory wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Kory wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Kory wrote: »

I like playing as a Redguard in Elder Scrolls games, but I got into pvp here and had to switch to a Dunmer. Makes a huge difference. I hope Redguards get a buff.

What class were you playing? Because some classes have horrible sustain and Redguard works great on them in PvP.

Like on Templar, Necromancer, and Warden.

Everywhere else, yeah, the race is kind of weak, but for those three classes, it does well, and only in that specific environment, it becomes even more substantial in Battlegrounds and other no-CP content.

Well I switched my Redguard nightblade to a dark elf after being recommended to go wood elf, Orc, Khajjit, or dark elf. Also I switched from Redguard to Nord on my Dragonknight. These turned out to be good improvements with no big issue with stamina sustain.

Right, those classes do well on sustain naturally. It would be a waste to be a Redguard as any class other than the three I mentioned, and even then, an experienced player outgrows the need for sustain from racial passives while you can never have too much damage.

"even then, an experienced player outgrows the need for sustain from racial passives while you can never have too much damage."

Which is why these experienced players never mention or recommend Redguard as a base no matter what class it is. The races with damage buffs that can be upscaled in stats on the character sheets from any source/sets/CP/mythics in the game are always a key choice.

If someone is struggling managing their resources as a new player, yes, I would recommend Redguard to them. There are Race Change tokens in the game and by the time that player earned enough Champion Points to sustain, it’s within reason to assume they’ve made at least 300k to race change at a 100-1 gold-to-crown ratio on Xbox.

DaciValt

Would love to play redguard but just cannot justify it. Am not looking to just min max and play dunmer for everything I just want a reason to want to play one which just doesn't exist.

I can't look at anything on redguard and not just immediately go "meh... I get more HP on Imperial and the same stamina"

Feel like wasted point investment in comparison.