PVP meta is so boring.

Overamera · June 19

All these procs just takes out the fun in competitive PVP. Zaan, Relequen, draugrkin, vate, masters dw and so on. These hard carry sets have ruined PVP for me. I no longer enjoy roaming cyrodiil when coming across so many people with these overpowered proc sets. Hoping for a better balanced game in the future where it acutally takes more skills than procs to kill someone.

Dekrypted · June 19

Personally, I've love to see alot of these sets not get 100% gutted like some sets that were popular in the past have been. I'd rather they just have the condition added to require battle spirit or only effect monsters, not players.

The current "meta" PvP is in feels uninspired and leaves alot to be desired. That's just when it comes to gear. Skills is an entirely different thread.

Cast_El · June 19

Overamera wrote: »

All these procs just takes out the fun in competitive PVP. Zaan, Relequen, draugrkin, vate, masters dw and so on. These hard carry sets have ruined PVP for me. I no longer enjoy roaming cyrodiil when coming across so many people with these overpowered proc sets. Hoping for a better balanced game in the future where it acutally takes more skills than procs to kill someone.

Agree, so boring/anoying. I miss the no proc/test period

Syiccal · June 19

Carefull what you wish for, no procs will include sets like wretched and other sets that proc dmg stats

Overamera · June 19

Syiccal wrote: »

Carefull what you wish for, no procs will include sets like wretched and other sets that proc dmg stats

I do not mean proc sets like wretched and other sets that gives damage unless overpowered. Just overpowered sets that doesn't take much skill at all or just afk dmg for example the sets I mentioned. Obviously I don't think they should delete proc sets entirely, there should definitely be procs sets which brings new and fun stuff to the game just not these afk sets, just hit a person with a dot and light attacks and you start hitting 6k dps on them. There is no skill nor is it competitive in those playstyles.

Naftal · June 19

Have you tried playing on Ravenwatch?

YandereGirlfriend · June 19

Cast_El wrote: »

Overamera wrote: »

All these procs just takes out the fun in competitive PVP. Zaan, Relequen, draugrkin, vate, masters dw and so on. These hard carry sets have ruined PVP for me. I no longer enjoy roaming cyrodiil when coming across so many people with these overpowered proc sets. Hoping for a better balanced game in the future where it acutally takes more skills than procs to kill someone.

Agree, so boring/anoying. I miss the no proc/test period

No, you really don't. No-Proc period was a novelty for like two weeks and then the PvP population began to dip.

That change is what killed PC-NA Ravenwatch.

Cast_El · June 19

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Cast_El wrote: »

Overamera wrote: »

All these procs just takes out the fun in competitive PVP. Zaan, Relequen, draugrkin, vate, masters dw and so on. These hard carry sets have ruined PVP for me. I no longer enjoy roaming cyrodiil when coming across so many people with these overpowered proc sets. Hoping for a better balanced game in the future where it acutally takes more skills than procs to kill someone.

Agree, so boring/anoying. I miss the no proc/test period

No, you really don't. No-Proc period was a novelty for like two weeks and then the PvP population began to dip.

That change is what killed PC-NA Ravenwatch.

May be but I enjoyed playing and not get killed by set

Vaqual · June 19

Many procs are definetly in line with what raw damage would offer if you consider CD, proc condition difficulty, AoE/single target benefits, damage/healing offered simultaneously by raw stats, avoidability, etc.

They will always show up as a large part of the kill tooltip because the player is giving up a lot of raw stat value on each ability. Of course they have the great benefits of mostly being off-gcd and oftentimes cost-free, but many of sets are a bit less convenient to control compared to abilities or end up being a loss if countered correctly. For most sets the balancing is really OK. Seeing something often in death recap means the thing is popular. That can mean it is OP or BiS, but it doesn't have to.

Some are too stat dense, some are OP in conjunction with certain active/passive abilities. Broadstroke nerfs to these sets will not make the game any more interesting, as proc sets offer a nice way to break out of the confines of the offensive kit that each class offers. Personally, I find no proc just a lot less interesting.

To ensure OP proc sets are adjusted in a way that is beneficial to the games overall state, it is important to clearly communicate what aspects of what set/ability/passive are creating too much value and often it is enough to make small adjustments to restore balance and preserve build options.

My opinion on the ones you listed:

Zaan: 2pc, AoE, high tick frequency and damage thanks to status proc, good synergy with draugrkin, slow ramp up, long CD, imperfect uptime due to double chance requirement in proc condition, has widely available counterplay, synergizes a bit too well on DK, can't crit = is mostly OK

Rele: 5pc, excellent single target, excellent tick rate, engaging proc requirement, slow ramp up, can't crit, widely availabe counterplay, hard countered by periodic purges, but: overly effective on ranged weapons, subtle setup = likely needs adjustment for ranged weapons

Draugrkin: 5pc, rewards high tick frequency builds (dot or proc heavy), moderately countered by purge, feels rewarding to play, has inherent drawback (avoided by one-barring), benefits overly much from other OP sets and abilities = should not be directly adjusted, it will fall in line when other overperforming sets are corrected

Vate (ice I presume?): 2pc, slightly overtuned high tick frequency AoE damage, is only slightly too strong by value but: procced off massively overpowered free to cast ability, offers access to minor brittle on an already overloaded cast = this set was designed before Ele. Sus. became the monstrosity that it is. Should not be allowed to exist in its current state. Either the ability has to be knocked down or this set should do something different, but the ability is the worse offender in this case. This combo also offers extreme synergy for draugrkin while having an incredibly easy proc condition (see above, not draugrkins fault, roughly 20 damage ticks (if I didn't miscount) in 10s for a single free cast). This set/skill bundle offers so much it can not be written in just one paragraph (made a separate thread about it, not even mentioning synergies).

Masters DW: 2pc, high flat damage dot, synergizes 2-fold with ability by boosting direct and dot damage = too much DPS for a 2pc in it's current state, should be adjusted (also see my other thread for full description (not trying to plug myself, just too much stuff to write)).

Even if very popular and strong sets like Way of Fire might seem to do as much or more as OP sets like Master's DW you have to keep in mind that WoF is still a 5pc and it has internal CD, while Masters DW can be maintained on more than 1 target, is a 2pc and offers comparable damage up to roughly 3000 WD on just the dot, or exceeds WoF damage even with high WD if reapplied after the first dot tick. The fact that they synergize would not be such an issue, if Master's DW wasn't so overloaded (e.g. Carve+WoF is good, but not OP).
There are a lot of circumstancial factors to be considered and only because one set excels in a 1v1 scenario it does not mean that this set is technically overpowered. Also many more rarely used sets are not that far behind the FotM and sometimes defeat really comes down to experience, skill, lag or luck.

Forgive me if I messed up/forgot a detail, I know this is not an exhaustive description, but there is just a lot to every one of these "problem" sets. Many of them are actually OK and fun to play, but popularity can often times lead to the conclusion that something must be broken. But I agree, there is no justification for some of them being so powerful. However, I think it is important to be considerate with what is adjusted and to what extent, because the goal is not to take options away from players that enjoy playing with them, but to create more options for fair yet competitive play.

Lastly, I don't think dividing sets between PvE and PvP is good. It will not feel nice, it disincentivizes casual change of gamemode and detracts from the actual roleplay for individual characters, as sets can be a part of character identity. A high price to pay for what will probably be an equally bad balance, only between fewer sets.

Sry 4 wall of text.

Atrael7 · June 19

I'll just leave this here.

Stamicka · June 19

Naftal wrote: »

Have you tried playing on Ravenwatch?

I actually love Ravenwatch. No one else seems to like it so even though I prefer it, I can't play there. What is the point of Cyrodiil without people to fight?

This is partially on the devs though. No one really knows for sure what sets are allowed in Ravenwatch. ZOS needs to make a list that is easily visible once you enter the campaign or otherwise give SOME kind of way to know that your build works.

RaikaNA · June 19

Overamera wrote: »

All these procs just takes out the fun in competitive PVP. Zaan, Relequen, draugrkin, vate, masters dw and so on. These hard carry sets have ruined PVP for me. I no longer enjoy roaming cyrodiil when coming across so many people with these overpowered proc sets. Hoping for a better balanced game in the future where it acutally takes more skills than procs to kill someone.

You have an alternative to CP campaigns... you can give Ravenwatch a try.. it's a NO CP No Proc set campaign.

disintegr8 · June 19

Playing PVP against those people with ultra-fast ping rates just makes it so boring. It gets so tiresome being hammered by 5 or 6 hits before you can react and dying all the time. Please give me a high ping rate server so I can start enjoying PVP, or maybe add a 300ms delay to everyone else.

Hoping for a better balanced game in the future......

Janni · June 20

Personally I don't really find anything that overwhelmingly powerful. Most of these sets have already been nerfed quite heavily. You hop into a fight with 20 other people and it's just a mosh pit full of feathers and giggles right now.

And just for the just for the record Master's Dual Wield WAS nerfed already. The dot portion was effectively halved. Usually you wont see it tick for much more than 500 damage every 2 seconds. Cool that will kill someone that is afk in about uhm... 2.5 minutes?

The reason most of us use it is because we're stacking sources of damage rather than big tooltips. So for example it adds 1.6k to 2 sources of damage. In the end that comes out to total damage that is still MUCH lower than your average wrecking blow but because it's instant cast, applies minor mangle, and most importantly applies 2 attacks it can mostly break even. The reason I personally started doing that was because it allows me to ignore corrosive armor entirely. Generally speaking dots are just a joke right now anyway. No one has ever died to a dot outside of the occasional siege they didn't see or couldn't avoid.

Jamie_Aubrey · June 20

Come play No CP

jtm1018 · June 20

Usually, I just charge in to get a hit on an enemy player, and expect to die in 2-3 seconds, pvp is a death sentence for me.
Well as long as I dont pvp in a pvp area, I will live longer, lol.
I love pvp, but divines damn me, I am just not good at it, smh & fml.

LittlePinkDot · June 20

Overamera wrote: »

All these procs just takes out the fun in competitive PVP. Zaan, Relequen, draugrkin, vate, masters dw and so on. These hard carry sets have ruined PVP for me. I no longer enjoy roaming cyrodiil when coming across so many people with these overpowered proc sets. Hoping for a better balanced game in the future where it acutally takes more skills than procs to kill someone.

Zaan doesn't seem to ever proc

ZOS_Hadeostry · June 20

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it deals with PvP combat.

Thank you for your understanding

Cast_El · June 20

Naftal wrote: »

Have you tried playing on Ravenwatch?

Is there veteran pvp player on it ?
Most of veteran pvp player go to CP campain.
Fighting against noob can be fun... Only for 5 minutes

Cast_El · June 20

How about adding a restraint with Battle spirit, some like: "you can only wear one damage proc set", like we do with mythics items.
This would avoid player stacking 3-4 proc set. But Zos don't care about this I guess

CameraBeardThePirate · June 20

The problem with Ravenwatch or other "No-Proc" environments like no-cp IC is that it's just another bandaid fix that only looks at the symptoms and not the actual problem itself.

It is a bad balance strategy to just create an environment where the sets don't work instead of balancing the sets (and other skills) themselves. Vateshran and Master's DW are overperforming, but removing them outright or nerfing them into the Void won't help things - the problem is the tanky meta right now and lack of pressure from class DoTs after U35.

ZOS all too often opts for outright removing something rather than actually attempting to balance it - this goes all the way back to the original balance team & the days of dynamic ult gen, and most recently with the Plaguebreak changes removing it from PvE. I would much rather them look at what makes these sets overperform (keeping in mind that these sets do not exist in a vacuum) than add more rules restricting procs.

Luke_Flamesword · June 20

I prefer to play Ravenwatch more than other campaigns, but for some reason people prefer CP-proc campaigns where half of population is almost immortal and sometimes fighting for keep takes more than half hour because people can't kill each other. But I must admit that's ZOS fault with very poor implementation of no-proc.

It's obvious after all these years that's impossible to balance PvE and PvP when both have same foundation. No-proc campaign for me it's better than proc, but this still no real solution to problem. Most people just don't want to keep whole set of gear for no-proc campaign only and no-proc set is often not optimal for proc campaigns.

What we really need, is seperate balancing of every set for PvE and PvP. Every set should have separate stats for both worlds. CP should have PvE and PvP version. Even character stats and skills should have PvE and PvP versions. Than we can talk about real balance.

Alchimiste1 · June 21

Game is now balanced around sets instead of classes themselves now. Makes the experience very boring

Rhaegar75 · June 24

I wish we could have no proc BGs - I’m soo bored of being stuck with Vateshran and Master DW spammers

Cast_El · June 24

I have experienced to drop balorgh for vateshraan staff instead on my arcanist yesterday. The pressure is so high. You can cast it for free, keep the pressure on while healing yourself. This set was already too strong but with arcanist passives this set is too good.
I struggle to find a good damage monster set for arcanist yet

xDeusEJRx · June 24

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

I wish we could have no proc BGs - I’m soo bored of being stuck with Vateshran and Master DW spammers

Players: Current meta is very boring and proc-heavy metas are bad

Also players: Can we please get rid of no proc now, it's far too outdated?

lmao

TechMaybeHic · June 24

Yeah I pretty much see people just applying bleed with dual wield while vate destro streams in

TechMaybeHic · June 24

I love how nobody reads the entire thread and it's a binary choice of play proc enabled campaigns as-is; or go no proc where everything is super limited, throw out CP as well, and nobody is there 95% of the time.

We need balance, is what we need. And honestly I think id prefer if they went the other way from nerfing these, and instead make more powerful damage stat sets to where you're missing a lot more stat damage by opting for an effect proc

StaticWave · June 25

Even if they made class DoTs better, there is no reason people would suddenly stop using these procs sets.

A buff to class DoTs and a nerf to proc sets need to happen simultaneously or players would just have stronger class DoTs on top of the overperforming proc sets they currently use.

Supershutze · July 2

Due to heal meta, those proc sets are basically required if you want to actually kill anyone.

Get rid of heal meta, so you can actually kill people without having to use proc sets to burst.

Cast_El · July 2

Supershutze wrote: »

Due to heal meta, those proc sets are basically required if you want to actually kill anyone.

Get rid of heal meta, so you can actually kill people without having to use proc sets to burst.

No. You can kill without those proc set. You need to learn how to burst I guess.