Map Scaling Inconsistency is Driving Me Crazy

joe_schmo

I know this is going to sound petty and totally not important in the grand scheme of things and I am fully aware of that. But I have to get this off my chest because reasons.

I don't know if it's because of a certain personality trait I have but the fact that High Isle has a larger area than the Telvanni Peninsula which in turn is about half the size of Stonefalls yet their sizes on the map is totally out of sync with their actual area size just does something to my brain that makes me feel very anxious and uncomfortable. When I look at the density of wayshrines on the map and see how inconsistent they are across zones it just fills me with an ominous sense of dread and it is very distressing. I hate it! It doesn't make any sense! My entire sense of reality is crumbling! HELP!!!!

TaSheen

I'm sorry that you have this issue. I don't pay any attention to stuff like that. A zone is what it is. I don't look at it in relation to other zones.

I just approach a game like this as basically "it is what it is". Zones are their own "compass" - and.... well.... they don't have to be "coherent" for me.

I realize that you (and others) have some issues with this. I'm unsure what to tell you.... because I doubt ZOS is going to "rectify" matters.

phaneub17_ESO

Just look at old maps of North America where there was a massive split from Canada to California or a giant lake in the Northwest region. Neither one of those features existed, but cartographers put them in regardless.

vsrs_au

At least we don't have that problem with the Oblivion realms such as Coldharbour and Apocrypha: they're not even in Nirn, and so can never be displayed on the same map as the Nirn regions.

Norith_Gilheart_Flail

With respect, it does seem as you've self diagnosed a problem.

It would be prudent to speak to professionals around this to address any other further uncomfortable conditions you might future encounter.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Scaling will never be 1:1 in a game. A larger issue is how the map is not accurate and with every added zone it gets worse because things are not adjusted.

Tannus15

i'd love to see a to scale map of tamrial based on the zone sizes. any cartographers out there?

Dr_Con

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/63811

In reviewing the submitted questions, this issue of geography and politics seemed paramount in importance. It arose in several questions, in various ways. Let’s deal with this directly.

Maps are tools. Nothing more. Nothing less. Standing in the Ashlands, a wayfinding map is a tool of survival. Able to assist you in finding your way to safety. Similarly, a ship’s map may aid a sailor in finding a calm harbor far from home.

But political maps? Maps that claim to represent the truth of land claimed by force of blade and spell? These maps aren’t tools for the reader. They’re tools for the mapmakers.

They speak of great strength when perhaps none exists. They speak of boundaries and borders that may exist only in the minds of people burdened by over-heavy crowns. To offer a contemporary example, have you ever seen a map of “the front” in the war between the three alliances? Do you believe that map was accurate for more than a day? At most? And, as always, remember that every written thing you read is subjective. Even the words of Divath Fyr.

This is all context. With that in place, the historian’s question is easily answered. The Great Houses have skirmished to claim the length and breadth of the peninsula in the same way they have warred for control of Vvardenfell, or Stonefalls, or Deshaan. Any maps that claim to fully represent political control of a region as heavily contested as Morrowind are guidelines at best. Even today, as the Three Banners war rages, my people continue their great game of strike and counterstrike. Gloved hands grip gilded blades, as the strong vie to rule the weak.

My takeaway... I believe that land of Tamriel is much larger than the map indicates, and is much larger than what we will ever have access to. Each "area" is a representative area of a location. There simply isn't enough land in the game that we have access to that can sustain a large and diverse population, plus allowing a large scale war, given the technology we see in the game. There's probably hundreds of thousands of acres not accounted for by the map, which appears to just be a rough representation of the traversable area. The map you see is just the blueprints to the prison your mind constructs if you take it literally, setting the expectation that what you see on the map is the only area you'll ever travel to, when there is likely much more space that isn't on the map. Think of TES 2's map vs what we have access to in ESO. If you don't want to accept this as an explanation, here's a pretty picture of an older world map

FeedbackOnly

Dr_Con wrote: »

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/63811

In reviewing the submitted questions, this issue of geography and politics seemed paramount in importance. It arose in several questions, in various ways. Let’s deal with this directly.

Maps are tools. Nothing more. Nothing less. Standing in the Ashlands, a wayfinding map is a tool of survival. Able to assist you in finding your way to safety. Similarly, a ship’s map may aid a sailor in finding a calm harbor far from home.

But political maps? Maps that claim to represent the truth of land claimed by force of blade and spell? These maps aren’t tools for the reader. They’re tools for the mapmakers.

They speak of great strength when perhaps none exists. They speak of boundaries and borders that may exist only in the minds of people burdened by over-heavy crowns. To offer a contemporary example, have you ever seen a map of “the front” in the war between the three alliances? Do you believe that map was accurate for more than a day? At most? And, as always, remember that every written thing you read is subjective. Even the words of Divath Fyr.

This is all context. With that in place, the historian’s question is easily answered. The Great Houses have skirmished to claim the length and breadth of the peninsula in the same way they have warred for control of Vvardenfell, or Stonefalls, or Deshaan. Any maps that claim to fully represent political control of a region as heavily contested as Morrowind are guidelines at best. Even today, as the Three Banners war rages, my people continue their great game of strike and counterstrike. Gloved hands grip gilded blades, as the strong vie to rule the weak.

My takeaway... I believe that land of Tamriel is much larger than the map indicates, and is much larger than what we will ever have access to. Each "area" is a representative area of a location. There simply isn't enough land in the game that we have access to that can sustain a large and diverse population, plus allowing a large scale war, given the technology we see in the game. There's probably hundreds of thousands of acres not accounted for by the map, which appears to just be a rough representation of the traversable area. The map you see is just the blueprints to the prison your mind constructs if you take it literally, setting the expectation that what you see on the map is the only area you'll ever travel to, when there is likely much more space that isn't on the map. Think of TES 2's map vs what we have access to in ESO. If you don't want to accept this as an explanation, here's a pretty picture of an older world map

I would think we are missing living areas for the missing children along with farms for food.

I assume things like this fill in the gap.

Supreme_Atromancer

joe_schmo wrote: »

I know this is going to sound petty and totally not important in the grand scheme of things and I am fully aware of that. But I have to get this off my chest because reasons.

I don't know if it's because of a certain personality trait I have but the fact that High Isle has a larger area than the Telvanni Peninsula which in turn is about half the size of Stonefalls yet their sizes on the map is totally out of sync with their actual area size just does something to my brain that makes me feel very anxious and uncomfortable. When I look at the density of wayshrines on the map and see how inconsistent they are across zones it just fills me with an ominous sense of dread and it is very distressing. I hate it! It doesn't make any sense! My entire sense of reality is crumbling! HELP!!!!

I think it would be cool if the scale was consistent, but I've come to terms with it, honestly. What helped me was realising that scale could never approach anything realistic anyway. Like reading a book, not every single breath is described, but the story still happens. So if it gives them freedom to create, then fine.

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm sorry that you have this issue. I don't pay any attention to stuff like that. A zone is what it is. I don't look at it in relation to other zones.

I just approach a game like this as basically "it is what it is". Zones are their own "compass" - and.... well.... they don't have to be "coherent" for me.

I hear that its not important for everyone. I do think that relative coherence should be important in the design of a world specifically said to be "the main character". And if Tamriel is an Arena due to the huge amount of conflict between her peoples, then how different places relate (even geographically) to one another should be important parts of that story/world design. A good example is thinking about how much western Blackwood's history is defined by its proximity to Elsweyr, so you have this human place defined, at least in part, by proximity to these fascinating, exotic cat people with its own history and culture. We should see that both in story and world-building.

When making characters, I always take my cues from the character of the place they are from, and few places are more fascinating than those on the borders of contrasting worlds. Details about coherence with other places then becomes important. TBF I think that ZOS clearly already often puts a good deal of effort into doing it: the Valenwood Gate in N. Elsweyr feels like an important and interesting place; Sweetwater Cascades is one of their best homes for its two-worlds character. If Points of Interest and Stunning Locales are important elements in ZOS' world design, I think other examples exist where the world would become richer if it was thought about a bit more.

Dr_Con wrote: »

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/63811

In reviewing the submitted questions, this issue of geography and politics seemed paramount in importance. It arose in several questions, in various ways. Let’s deal with this directly.

Maps are tools. Nothing more. Nothing less. Standing in the Ashlands, a wayfinding map is a tool of survival. Able to assist you in finding your way to safety. Similarly, a ship’s map may aid a sailor in finding a calm harbor far from home.

But political maps? Maps that claim to represent the truth of land claimed by force of blade and spell? These maps aren’t tools for the reader. They’re tools for the mapmakers.

They speak of great strength when perhaps none exists. They speak of boundaries and borders that may exist only in the minds of people burdened by over-heavy crowns. To offer a contemporary example, have you ever seen a map of “the front” in the war between the three alliances? Do you believe that map was accurate for more than a day? At most? And, as always, remember that every written thing you read is subjective. Even the words of Divath Fyr.

This is all context. With that in place, the historian’s question is easily answered. The Great Houses have skirmished to claim the length and breadth of the peninsula in the same way they have warred for control of Vvardenfell, or Stonefalls, or Deshaan. Any maps that claim to fully represent political control of a region as heavily contested as Morrowind are guidelines at best. Even today, as the Three Banners war rages, my people continue their great game of strike and counterstrike. Gloved hands grip gilded blades, as the strong vie to rule the weak.

My takeaway... I believe that land of Tamriel is much larger than the map indicates, and is much larger than what we will ever have access to. Each "area" is a representative area of a location. There simply isn't enough land in the game that we have access to that can sustain a large and diverse population, plus allowing a large scale war, given the technology we see in the game. There's probably hundreds of thousands of acres not accounted for by the map, which appears to just be a rough representation of the traversable area. The map you see is just the blueprints to the prison your mind constructs if you take it literally, setting the expectation that what you see on the map is the only area you'll ever travel to, when there is likely much more space that isn't on the map. Think of TES 2's map vs what we have access to in ESO. If you don't want to accept this as an explanation, here's a pretty picture of an older world map

Good post, I agree with your conclusions. I will say that in terms of immersiveness (which I recognise people have very different care levels for) I dislike stuff like "unreliable narrator" being denigrated to explaining lore mistakes or game limitations because it cheapens story, and breeds subconscious distrust. In service to compelling story-telling that needs to be actively explored, unreliable narrator is absolutely fantastic. When used to explain things away, it debases it. Its harder to suspend disbelief and buy-in when the question is whether this comment or that is because it increases verisimilitude or because we want to sell crates, make it fit. Sometimes, a bug is just a bug. The map is a UI device, meant for the player's brain. Is Eastmarch really wrong because "Nords are dumb"? Or is it just something they got a bit wrong? Mostly just 2c fwiw.

TaSheen

I've been playing TES since Arena released, and I have a real feel for where which zones are in relation to others. So I don't really even need maps any more....

This goes along with my ability to remember where EVERYTHING is (meaning chests, books, backpacks, thieves troves etc) and not just for ESO. I remember where everything is and how to manage combat in every game (TES or otherwise) I've ever played. I don't mean "off hand" - I mean when I get back into a game I played 25 years ago, it's not "fresh and new again".

Sometimes that's a bummer. But it's like those "can't unsee that" jokes....

StarOfElyon

joe_schmo wrote: »

I know this is going to sound petty and totally not important in the grand scheme of things and I am fully aware of that. But I have to get this off my chest because reasons.

I don't know if it's because of a certain personality trait I have but the fact that High Isle has a larger area than the Telvanni Peninsula which in turn is about half the size of Stonefalls yet their sizes on the map is totally out of sync with their actual area size just does something to my brain that makes me feel very anxious and uncomfortable. When I look at the density of wayshrines on the map and see how inconsistent they are across zones it just fills me with an ominous sense of dread and it is very distressing. I hate it! It doesn't make any sense! My entire sense of reality is crumbling! HELP!!!!

Necrom is smaller than High Isle? Wow. That's disappointing.