Heavy-attack builds on non-lighting weapons - An idea

TheDarkRuler

With the release of High Isle and Firesong the Oakensoul Ring made an old niché playstyle widespread: Heavy-Attack builds focussed on Lightning Staves were seen a lot. This playstyle was mostly possible because of a few things: Oakensoul Ring made it possible to keep up Empower 100% and Empower was reworked from +40% to Light Attacks/Heavy Attacks to +80% to Heavy Attacks. Also Lightning Attacks had the benefit of hitting multiple enemies while also dealing channeled damage while also dealing area of effect damage through the Tri-Focus skill line.

I don’t want to talk about the nerf versus non-nerf thematics: That has been talked about a lot already and it is not really in my intention to go further down on it. What I want to talk about is diversity in Heavy Attack builds. Currently there are only Lightning Attack builds viable because of the way Lightning Attacks work. Other weapons deal their damage upon completing a fully charged heavy attack while Lightning Atttacks deal less damage upon completion but also damage over time. That way the heavy-attack bonuses are added more often and deal more effect.

I want to propose a few changes to existing passives and effects to perhaps make other weapons worth considering using on a Heavy Attack set-up as well.

Destruction Staves
Since the main DPS of the Lightning Staves came from the trifocus passive, I think we should emphasize on that passive as well for the other staves.

Lightning already deals cleave-damage to all adjacent units while channeling the attack. That makes is a great weapon for trash fights. Frost staves are being used by tanks to get shields which are already quite powerful as well. The only thing missing? Inferno Staves.

I was thinking that the Trifocus passive could speed-up heavy attacks on Inferno Staves slightly and adding a stackable burning damage over time effect on the target. Each stack could deal X damage over the next 5 seconds or until reset. Much like an Inferno Relequen effect. That way the Inferno staff could really help against boss fights.

Restoration Staves
Upon completing a fully-charged Heavy Attack on restoration staves you already get Major Mending, heal allies around the target and get a lot of Magicka resources back. Since that is healer-based, I don’t think we should give that one more bonuses.

One-handed & Shield
Right now the only real reason to Heavy Attack on a tank build is to get resources back. Heavy-attacking on a tank is even more dangerous than on a DD because you cannot block while doing so and you might even get one-shotted by some mechanics. The reward for doing so should be greater.

My proposal would be to add a bonus to the passive “Fortress”: Hitting an enemy with a Fully-charged Heavy Attack causes it to be more susceptible to all kinds of negative status effects for 5 seconds. That way you help your group apply their weapon enchantments and poisons and even the likelihood of applying Hemorrhaging through Beast Trap can be improved. It is still a nice support-role instead of dealing damage as a tank.

Dual-wielded Weapons
When looking at the animation dealt with dual-wielded weapons you are already dealing a huge swirl in front of you before hitting. My idea would be to add a small conal area that could hit enemies inmelee range in a 60° cone in front of you. Also the weapon bonus of each weapon-type would be doubled when heavy-attacking. So when attacking with dual-wielded axe and dagger you would get a higher critical chance and damage.

Two-handed Weapons
Similar to dual-wielded weapons almost all heavy-attacks on Two-handed weapons are lifting the weapon way above the head and then crushing them down at full force. So on this weapon type I’d propose single-targeted focus. That is also why I’d remove the small splash effect from the “Forceful” passive and give it a +50%/+100% damage bonus to the target. Also similar to Dual-wielded weapons the passives of the weapon types greatsword, great axes and great maces should be doubled as well during heavy-attacking.

Bows
Most bows are light attacking to fill up the stacks on the passive “Hawk-Eye” because it is much faster compared to a heavy-attack and the amount of stacks are the same. I’d propose a change that would instantly fill the Hawk-Eye meter to 5 when completing a fully-charged heavy attack. Also the target should then be more susceptible to your attacks for 10s. I’d even add one more passive to the “Hasty Retreat” passive that speeds up Heavy-Attack time by 50% after a successful roll-dodge for 3 seconds.

What do you think of these ideas?

Braffin

The easier way to bring lightning staves in line with all other weapons would be to adjust lightning of course.

That can easily be achieved by changing sergeants mail to only buff the last tick of a FHA.

Nobody is forced onto a specific set anymore, nobody is forced to exclusively lightning staves anymore.

If 1 weapon out of 8 (i counted each destruction staff seperate) is out of the line, we should adjust this weapon and not the 7 others. It's quite odd the other way around.

After that's done HA can be balanced with skills, LA and so on altogether, for example by simply adjusting empower, while also a solution to the matter of infinite sustain has to be found to bring this playstyle fully on par.

Soarora

I don't think changing snb heavy attacks is necessary. I'm biased because I really hate heavy attacking and avoid it at all costs but how one gets stamina as a tank is one of the few class-specific things left. I think only dk and sorc have bursty stamina regen without heavy attacks, with dk getting it through block and sorc getting it without blocking but it is better than a heavy attack.

Edit: That is to say, your suggestion would mean any good tank has to heavy attack every 5 seconds if possible to do so, which would destroy a part of class diversity and make tanking more dangerous and more annoying.

tsaescishoeshiner

I think other heavies should be buffed instead of nerfing lightning. It's cool and fun!

Lightning staffs have multi-hit heavy attacks, which helps them deal more damage and depend on the final hit less. The AoE helps majorly for DPS and targeting of course, otherwise you'd lose all damage on a 3-second charge by hitting a small enemy instead of a boss.

Other DPS weapons could gain multi-hits. Bows and staves could shoot a projectile every 0.8 seconds of charge before a big one whenever you release, etc. For dual wield, think of the dual wield heavy attack from Skyrim, which was I think a 3-6 hit attack depending on the weapons you use.

PrincessOfThieves

Braffin wrote: »

The easier way to bring lightning staves in line with all other weapons would be to adjust lightning of course.

That can easily be achieved by changing sergeants mail to only buff the last tick of a FHA.

Nobody is forced onto a specific set anymore, nobody is forced to exclusively lightning staves anymore.

If 1 weapon out of 8 (i counted each destruction staff seperate) is out of the line, we should adjust this weapon and not the 7 others. It's quite odd the other way around.

After that's done HA can be balanced with skills, LA and so on altogether, for example by simply adjusting empower, while also a solution to the matter of infinite sustain has to be found to bring this playstyle fully on par.

This. And if they buff all heavy attacks, then they would have to revert all LA nerfs as well. Remove the damage nerf, make it so they benefit from Empower again etc.

TybaltKaine

I'm also of the opinion that bringing lightning back into line with the other weapons is the easier choice.

The DW idea would make spin to win and heavy attack a nightmare in PVP. Imagine a bunch of Oakensoul, DW spin to win NB's with a free aoe cone on demand that restores resources. No thanks.

S&B HA are generally handled by waiting until the boss has done it's heavy, blocking it and countering with your heavy. Making a tank have to HA more would make life harder for tanks than it already is.

That's all I got.

Braffin

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

The easier way to bring lightning staves in line with all other weapons would be to adjust lightning of course.

That can easily be achieved by changing sergeants mail to only buff the last tick of a FHA.

Nobody is forced onto a specific set anymore, nobody is forced to exclusively lightning staves anymore.

If 1 weapon out of 8 (i counted each destruction staff seperate) is out of the line, we should adjust this weapon and not the 7 others. It's quite odd the other way around.

After that's done HA can be balanced with skills, LA and so on altogether, for example by simply adjusting empower, while also a solution to the matter of infinite sustain has to be found to bring this playstyle fully on par.

This. And if they buff all heavy attacks, then they would have to revert all LA nerfs as well. Remove the damage nerf, make it so they benefit from Empower again etc.

Well, as this whole thread seems to be about power fantasies, I'll add mine according to my personal liking:

I vote for LA restoring resources on top of the cake, so I will never have to think about sustain anymore in this game, if I do proper weaving. And of course I also want Kena back in it's original state, will pair well with this change.

Sounds just fair for me.

athena9205

Personally i think the way the fire ice and resto staffs work should be updated.

Fire staffs i'd like to see work like za'ans and any target inside the beam takes single target damage just like the one targeted. Make it a lock on attack and stay on for as long as you hold the button. Damage should be every second rather than 1.8 seconds it is now.

Frost staff: i'd like to see a conical ice attack, limited in range to 15 meters but do AOE not single target damage, also have it UNLOCKED so you can just swing around like the new arcanist fatecarver. Again, damage every second.

Resto Staff: I'd like to see this one able to hit friendlies for Healing as well as enemies for damage. Similar to psijic skill. Lock on skill and range at 30 meters so the PVP cyrodil range bonus can come into effect. Damage/healing every .5 seconds. Unlocks players when they are fully healed and can relock onto another target without releasing button.

athena9205

as for timing i prefer the heavy attack sequence to be adjusted to 1 second rather than 1.8 seconds on all melee and bow weapons. And i prefer something more in line to tsaescishoeshiner idea of light multi hits on Heavy attack DW and 2H and for S&B the player should get a channeling shield buff, to offset the possible damage tanks could receive from lowering block.

Soarora

athena9205 wrote: »

Personally i think the way the fire ice and resto staffs work should be updated.

Fire staffs i'd like to see work like za'ans and any target inside the beam takes single target damage just like the one targeted. Make it a lock on attack and stay on for as long as you hold the button. Damage should be every second rather than 1.8 seconds it is now.

Frost staff: i'd like to see a conical ice attack, limited in range to 15 meters but do AOE not single target damage, also have it UNLOCKED so you can just swing around like the new arcanist fatecarver. Again, damage every second.

Resto Staff: I'd like to see this one able to hit friendlies for Healing as well as enemies for damage. Similar to psijic skill. Lock on skill and range at 30 meters so the PVP cyrodil range bonus can come into effect. Damage/healing every .5 seconds. Unlocks players when they are fully healed and can relock onto another target without releasing button.

Changing all staves like that wouldn’t work from a trial healer perspective. Healers need to be able to HA bosses for sustain in KA HM and CR HM executes. Additionally, RO/JO healer needs to be able to proc roaring opportunist by heavy attacking twice. One can do this using lightning full channel twice but now ice is a much better option since it’s faster, harder to accidentally cancel the HA, defensive capabilities from ice passives, and brittle if necessary.

athena9205

If they change the Heavy attack method they will ofc change the 'final attack" of the heavy attack proc to something else. I dont use ROJO so dont know how useful a change like this could be. I'm stating how i'd like to see the HA work visually and functionally.

Soarora

athena9205 wrote: »

If they change the Heavy attack method they will ofc change the 'final attack" of the heavy attack proc to something else. I dont use ROJO so dont know how useful a change like this could be. I'm stating how i'd like to see the HA work visually and functionally.

Based on what I know about ZOS, I don’t think they would. I’m not even sure what they would change it to. Unlocked HAs may be fun but it’s not realistic.