The Ascendant Lord: A waste of a great Villain

Margha_Ralmoren

I will talk about the whole story of High Isle and Galen so don't read if you don't want to get spoiled.

When Zenimax promised that the 2022 story arc would circle around political intrigues instead of the estival world saving I was cautiously optimistic. I mean, we already had a bad start with the introduction of yet again another cult of freaks (I swear there are more cultists than civilians in Tamriel at this point) but I guess that for game design purposes we needed a new flavour of mercenaries to bonk on the head.

High Isle main quest was... good. The disappearance of the alliance leaders was a serious yet realistic issue, we could finally meet Arabelle Davaux, the villains seemed well organised, High King Emeric carried most dialogues as usual, all good stuff.

It was obvious right away that the Ascendant Lord was Bacaro, mostly due to the small cast of male characters and his good guy act, but also because he had the best motives than any other villain in ESO (or so I hoped).
Picture this. Lord Bacaro is an Imperial whose country has been torn apart by a daedric invasion. Molag Bal's minions wreck havoc in the Imperial City while the souls of countless mortals are stolen. You would expect said mortals to set aside their differences and band together to deal with this catastrophic event. After all they had already done so during previous invasions when the stakes were much lower. Alas in a collective streak of short-sighted greed, the three Rulers decided that this would be the best time to capture the Ruby Throne for themselves. So now on top of fighting daedras mortals also have to fight against each other, causing even more deaths and throwing Cyrodiil into an unending crisis. The Leaders could have used the Vestige's attack on Molag Bal as a distraction to get Cyrodiil under mortal control again before splitting their gains, however they couldn't even form a truce at this crucial moment. It looks like politicians bickering about the colour of the oval office carpet while Satan does donuts on the White House lawn.

Meanwhile, Lord Bacaro founded the Society of the Steadfast to heal any soldier injured in the war and help refugees. The thing is that he doesn't have infinite ressources, his country is in ruins with no peace in sight, and no one cares. I too would be pissed.
Clearly, people's lives mean nothing to the Leaders. All of them whine that Tamriel would fall into chaos under their opponent's rule but chaos is not only there already but also getting worse because of them, proving that none of them are fit to sit on the Ruby Throne.

Bacaro's plan is perfect. Under the pretense of a peace summit that he assumes they'll want to attend just for good PR, he invites the Leaders on his turf to get them killed in an accident, ridding Tamriel of its tyrants. Then thanks to his good reputation as the benevolent Society of the Steadfast leader, he would be able to assemble some forces to go save Cyrodiil.
Since as a player we have no choice in the story, we would still have to save the Royals and stop Bacaro. We wouldn't have to sneeze on kill him halfway during his bad guy monologue however, we would arrest him and get him trialed for attempted regicide. As it would be a pretty bad political move to make Bacaro a martyr, he would simply be imprisoned while the Leaders work on a peace treaty to appease the discontent people.
So in a way Bacaro still succeeds in ending the war.

Really, the Ascendant Lord's offical motivations already made him a great villain, a antihero even, there was no need to muddy it with a hidden agenda.
Because yes, this whole text is a fanfiction, his real motivation is that he's actually related to a druid king and he will use his newfound magical powers to make a volcano explode and RULZ oVeR tHe wOrLDDD. What does this have to do with the alliance leaders ? Or the Society of the Steadfast ? Why shoehorning the druids in the main quest when the Three banners War doesn't even concern them ? Why ruining Bacaro's journey by turning him into a tired and overused cartoonish baddy ?

Also ZoS, you lied. This was another end of the world scenario.

Soarora

When I was playing High Isle my opinion was pretty much "this is pretty good, as long as the Ascendant Lord isn't Lord Bacaro"... it was just too obvious and it doesn't make any sense in terms of the cinematics. The Ascendant Lord was made out to be some kind of abnormally strong villain, so I was very much hoping that it'd be Sorcerer-King Orgnum. This is especially because of Dreadsail involvement and the fact we didn't see him in Summerset despite my understanding that he leads battles, not just sits on a throne. I do like your insights on how Bacaro could've been a good villain though. ZOS needs to stop holding onto High Isle/Firesong in any shape or form, it's an embarrassment of a season. So close to being good, yet tumbled all the way down into being pretty awful.

Carcamongus

Yes, Lord Bacillus was wasted potential. Granted, the fact so many people guessed who the Ascendant Lord was before they even finished High Isle's story already pointed to problems in the writing. I even had faint (and, I now admit, naive) hopes the identity's predictability was done on purpose so we'd suspect him, only to find out he's not the bad guy. I'd go further and say the Ascendant Order itself was a missed opportunity: why make them the 100% bad guys? It'd be so much more interesting if they were grayish antagonists with some good points rather than fanatics with false promises of justice. Take Wrothgar's King Kurog, for example (spoilers from an old DLC follow): he turned out to be the evil fellow, but his goal was to restore his ravaged kingdom's glory. Defeating him was far more memorable in part because of that.

The part about Lord Baccardi being a descendant of the druid king seemed like just a (weak) plot device to connect High Isle's story with Galen's. The Ascendant Lord could have allied himself with the Firesong for other reasons, such as using their secrets to strengthen the Order, or their magic to keep the three alliances busy fighting one another while he moved on the Ruby Throne. I like end-of-the-world threats, but Legacy of the Bretons would have been much better without one.

It's sad the most memorable aspect of the Ascendant Lord is how he could've been so much more interesting. A fellow with such good taste in armor and a voice like Darth Vader's deserved better.

Dr_Con

Carcamongus wrote: »

Yes, Lord Bacillus was wasted potential. Granted, the fact so many people guessed who the Ascendant Lord was before they even finished High Isle's story already pointed to problems in the writing. I even had faint (and, I now admit, naive) hopes the identity's predictability was done on purpose so we'd suspect him, only to find out he's not the bad guy. I'd go further and say the Ascendant Order itself was a missed opportunity: why make them the 100% bad guys? It'd be so much more interesting if they were grayish antagonists with some good points rather than fanatics with false promises of justice. Take Wrothgar's King Kurog, for example (spoilers from an old DLC follow): he turned out to be the evil fellow, but his goal was to restore his ravaged kingdom's glory. Defeating him was far more memorable in part because of that.

The part about Lord Baccardi being a descendant of the druid king seemed like just a (weak) plot device to connect High Isle's story with Galen's. The Ascendant Lord could have allied himself with the Firesong for other reasons, such as using their secrets to strengthen the Order, or their magic to keep the three alliances busy fighting one another while he moved on the Ruby Throne. I like end-of-the-world threats, but Legacy of the Bretons would have been much better without one.

It's sad the most memorable aspect of the Ascendant Lord is how he could've been so much more interesting. A fellow with such good taste in armor and a voice like Darth Vader's deserved better.

in all seriousness, media these days love to publish stories featuring the "twist" antagonists, but you can only do it so many times before it becomes a stale expectation. If they want to use this "twist" format again, they should try to subvert it IMO (which is something you describe as well). I personally think a format where our choices make the antagonist would be a step in the right direction. Until then, clear antagonists make for more captivating and enduring stories at the moment.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Becaro's plan would not of worked even if he somehow succeeded in becoming the Druid King, a Druid King cannot light the Dragonfires nor would they be accepted by any of the Elder Council as the leader of Tamriel.

Credible_Joe

Valid critiques from a story telling perspective. But Elder Scrolls in general has this problem where the closer you zoom in on the narrative, the less it holds up critically.

From a purely lore perspective, it's fascinating that Lord Bacaro almost displaced Tiber Septim as the Second Era fulcrum. He even had a druidic numidium that would have neatly tied a ribbon on his Ivy Throne, giving us a glimpse at an alternative grimdark history where the empire is completely eclipsed by the mythical Cyrodiilic jungle we've all heard about and never seen, Ivy Throne in the center. Imperial Legions, gone. Empire of Man, in the trash.

Yeah, it's bad for everyone, but I wouldn't call it a world ending threat. Unless I'm not recalling the scope correctly. I can't remember exactly how far his plan would have gone, or if he would have lost control of it or something. But the impression I got was the threat of a very grim alternate future where society is fractured and much more heavily isolated, as opposed to destroyed.

Cellentel

I had similar frustrations, but with a different “head-canon” storyline.

A recurring point of the High Isle storyline was that the Alliance leaders were learning to cooperate and work together, seeing each other less like enemies. There was even a reference at the end that the Ascendent Order did them a favor by uniting them against a common enemy.

So…what if that was the plan all along? Bacaro was the Ascendent Lord, but the entire point of the Ascendent Order as to act as a common enemy to bring the Alliance leaders together and bring about peace. When the player discovered this, you’d have a choice of whether to expose Bacaro and risk breaking the leaders apart, or keep quiet in the hopes that the ends justify the means. The identity of the Ascendent Lord might have been predictable, but his motives subverted expectations.

This…did not happen.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it's talking about the lore for the game.

Thank you for your understanding

Margha_Ralmoren

Carcamongus wrote: »

The part about Lord Baccardi being a descendant of the druid king seemed like just a (weak) plot device to connect High Isle's story with Galen's. The Ascendant Lord could have allied himself with the Firesong for other reasons, such as using their secrets to strengthen the Order, or their magic to keep the three alliances busy fighting one another while he moved on the Ruby Throne. I like end-of-the-world threats, but Legacy of the Bretons would have been much better without one.

It's sad the most memorable aspect of the Ascendant Lord is how he could've been so much more interesting. A fellow with such good taste in armor and a voice like Darth Vader's deserved better.

I mean I get why ZoS needed to incorporate the druids since it's supposed to be a Breton chapter and they are part of their culture. I would have chosen another approch to include them, first of all by making the Ascendant Order and the Firesong totally unrelated to each other (no kumbaya magic in my down-to-earth political plot please !). We can keep the volcanic vents and earthquakes in High Isles as the signs of another looming threat.
The second part of the story in Galen would still be about the Firesong trying to wake the volcano to rule over the ashes (which is still a stupid plan since the ashes will block out the sun for days and plants need it, also this is how you get a vampire infestation but whatever). Archdruid Orlaith manages to defeat the Vestige and becomes the Druid Queen. She's about to wake the volcano.
In the third part that you unlock after finishing High Isles and Galen, the Vestige and the Ascendant Lord make a temporary truce to stop the Firesong (take notes, dear Alliance Leaders !).
Because:
1) Bacaro kinda lives there and wouldn't want to see his house and his hard work with the Society being wiped out.
2) That would justify him being such a prominent character in the trailers because as it is now we often see Lord Bacaro and his meek persona but we never see the Ascendant Lord in all of his heavy armor glory and ready to swing that big sword.
3) The Ascendant Lord fighting on the frontline to protect the islands would make him appear even more as a hero of the people, plus he would look like a total badass and ZoS would have been able to sell even more of those cute collector statues.

Once Orlaith is delt with the player, in true Vestige fashion, would have to say "Wait, you're a big meanie and I still have to stop you ! Who are you by the way?"
There in an open field, still exhausted by their previous fight, the Vestige and the Ascendant Lord face each other, readying themselves for a last battle. No magic McGuffin to boost them, no allies, just their own weapons and skills. On vMA difficulty. One can only dream.

Varana

The whole Chapter+DLC was an exercise in wasting potential.

They promised Breton lore and history - but then, the actual content was rather lightweight on that front, focusing more on the druids than actually Breton politics and culture. And while druids may be cool for a while, they're not really at the core of Breton society.

The Ascendant Order kind of had a point - the Three Banners War is incredibly destructive and should be ended, and cutting off the snakes' heads is certainly an idea to do just that. Maybe not the most promising one, and definitely more evil than negotiations, but I fully understand why people - esp. those who fought in that war - might pursue that path. Plus the anti-monarchist vibes they used to draw people to their cause.
Instead, the presentation during the chapter story immediately removed any gray areas, and went full villain. Sigh.

As for the Ascendant Lord, I was pleasantly surprised when during High Isle, they built up Lord Bacardi quite obviously as a prime suspect, just to not have him revealed as the Evil Overlord. That was a refreshing change of pace - and would've been much better than what they actually did in Galen, i.e. the most boring and unoriginal path they could've come up with.

The story had not enough space to develop. Maybe a chapter's size is too small for the story they tried to tell, maybe they bit off too much with both Ascendant Order and druid stuff, maybe they just effed up the presentation. I can see a story like that as a main Alliance arc in the base game - spread out, in several stages, over five or six regions. High Isle + Galen was obviously not enough to fit it in.

---

ZOS_Hadeostry wrote: »

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it's talking about the lore for the game.

Thank you for your understanding

I don't understand why you tried to kill this thread dead, so why are you thanking me for it?

Alpharos7

The problem is, since the year long cycle started, the big villains have been written and designed (bar one exception) for show and excitement, and not with the detail to flesh them out. Rada Al-Saran is the exception as his story is fairly compelling and well written. Bacaro could have been the best villain yet but ZOS went for showcase over story at the end.

The earlier DLC bosses were written differently and were better - but not great. They were written for story and not spectacle. There is so much more to villains than simply wanting to conquer or destroy the world, and ZOS needs to explore this again, much like the earlier DLC bosses.

The other thing which doesn't help is the lack of emotional connection to the villains. There are very few villains in the game that the character has any kid of attachment too, and I feel that ZOS needs to find a way to bring in a connection for future bosses - the notable deaths at the end of Summerset worked but were very predictable and this took away their shock value. I know this would be tough in a huge game like ESO but it's possible

KingArthasMenethil

The Ascendant Lord and the Order are honestly both wastes.

Lord
Bacaro was an expected disappointment though it's a bigger question on why he's Cyro-Breton when I feel he should've been a full Breton from the Systres then some dude who grew up in Cyrodiil. Like I feel he's only Imperial because he's the antagonist. He could've been better written then some dude of the Imperial Culture who's appropriating a culture to make himself King

Order
The Ascendant Order was built up in High Isle was this Anti-Monarchy group which had some doubts placed in with the Magus saying "My Liege" to the Ascendant Lord before Galen just ripped off the band-aid for Druid King and the Green Scourge.

It's a real problem that I find High Isle and Firesong have entirely different views on the writing going on to the point the Dreadsails are entirely different (leadership lore) and the Ascendant Order are betrayed with zero reaction from them on their leader trying to become Druid King. High Isle even has oddities like why are the Eldertide even getting involved with the Ascendant Order out of nowhere when even High Isle is like they're working with the Firesong and the Eldertide are the isolationists so why are they getting involved with the Ascendant Order.

My issue with the Society of the Steadfast is more related to the fact they had a motif which I feel was a bad and odd choice because why would they need a style when you could just have them in clothes? Could've used that Motif for like earlier Druid motif instead of the kitbash that High Isle had or done a Systres Knight style with each armour type representing an Order.

Darkstorne

It was frustrating, yes. Mostly because I agree with you OP, that although predictable he had all the hallmarks of a great villain we might actually agree with. And I wonder if ZOS were afraid of that situation, where the players might want to side with the year's villain, and so felt the need to shoehorn in a "twist" that made him a comic-book villain. But that same twist also undermined absolutely everything about the narrative.

I figured out the Lord's identity before even the PTS launch, thanks to their "meet the character" blog posts. My original guess after the reveal trailer was that the lord would be female ("full plate armour, close-faced helm, this could be a Brienne of Tarth type character! They want us to think the lord is male!") but then there was an "interview" blog post that confirmed he was male. So okay, out goes the female theory, let's look through the male character spotlights on their blog to see who it could be, because this is clearly going for a Scooby-Do "it was me all along!" reveal, and that leaves... oh, one male character. Well okay then...

But it all added up! Super rich philanthropist who is frustrated by the failings of the political leaders of his day. Almost infinite wealth at his disposal. Dude is moonlighting as a vigilante. HE'S BATMAN!

And so literally every time he appeared in the questline I imagined him growling:


So much potential. All wasted. And a completely nonsensical plot as a result where the Alliance Leader's involvement and the Ascendant Order suddenly don't seem even remotely necessary to his "real" nefarious schemes, and his Society of the Steadfast is at complete odds to his moral compass. I'm not sure what the writers were thinking with this one.