Would you prefer "While battle spirit is active" statements to balance.....

ChaoticWings3

Would you prefer "While battle spirit is active" statements to balance out sets that become problematic in an unintended way or would you rather have the set adjusted completely to avoid confusion between bringing the set into a pvp or pve environment? Mostly referring to the 5 piece bonus or maximum bonus a set gives since in a 5 piece the other 4 effects are usually pretty standard across the game.

Mostly making this poll to kind of get everyone's thoughts on the topic while having a statistic to refer to. Personally, I'm kind of baffled by some balance changes at times where a set is made almost completely ineffective because it wasn't intended to be made to be super strong in one environment. A good chunk of the time I noticed a change was made to something mostly due to a pvp scenario. While I understand it is fine to balance out the set if something is so strong in a given scenario, especially in pvp, why not keep the same effect it had in PVE and place a "While battle spirit is active this set does effect x instead of effect y (adjust as needed)". The only reason I can come to for the decision is probably to not confuse players on how the set works and make it consistent across each scenario but the actual effect of this decision tends to frustrate both PVE and PVP for that very reason. The other reason I can think of is that it would cause sets to become very wordy but this is less likely to be the case because I sometimes have to re-read the effects of some sets (especially some of the new ones) in order to understand it. Having an extra sentence at the end of the description probably wouldn't hurt. It could even be double spaced to indicate importance in its own separate paragraph. An indication when battle spirit is active to indicate that set bonuses may have changed with a notification indicating the effect change would help keep players up to date when they enter a pvp environment. But that is another topic entirely.

M0ntie

"While battle spirit is active" statements should be used to balance sets and separate PVE and PVP effects

Absolutely. Especially if any changes are made to prevent heal stacking should be confined to pvp.
If you think about the scale of the health and damage output differences between pvp and pve it makes sense to balance them separately.

TybaltKaine

"While battle spirit is active" statements should be used to balance sets and separate PVE and PVP effects

Battle Spirit should absolutely be the indicator of use for PVP vs PVE sets. Nuking things from orbit with a nerfhammer isn't okay, especially when you can't bother to explain why you won't use the more precise option and it goes against the wishes of the player base.

Ultimately, I feel as if some of the nerfs are a case of bruised ego and knee jerk reactions to extreme outlier cases (looking squarely at the Plaguebreak nerf).

Necrotech_Master

"While battle spirit is active" statements should be used to balance sets and separate PVE and PVP effects

using "while battle spirit is active" or not would make it much easier to determine if a set was supposed to work in pvp, instead of using "against monsters" or "against players" that are more subtle

and lead to weird situations such as IC which is pvp and pve

in this specific case, the upcoming changes to some of the HA sets to make them only work on monsters is a reason that is highlighting the issue with the trifocus destro passive and lightning staves

limiting the dmg bonus to monsters only doesnt stop trifocus from applying the dmg to players indirectly

Lumsdenml

"While battle spirit is active" statements should be used to balance sets and separate PVE and PVP effects

This will not work in all cases, see plaguebreak, but I think it would in most.

haelgaan

"While battle spirit is active" statements should be used to balance sets and separate PVE and PVP effects

hell yes. i'm tired of PVP causing nerfs on what otherwise are fun PVE sets

chessalavakia_ESO

Off the top of my head the things that I can think of that have separate PvE/PvP settings are Empower, Rallying Cry, the upcoming Plaguebreak and Stormmaster changes.

My impression is that most of the items/abilities with attributes that separate them are basically garbage in one of the modes due to said text.

I think using separate settings for PvE and PvP to fine tune things is a good idea but, it feels like right now it's being used as a hammer instead of a scalpel.

Amottica

Forgive my ignorance but I have no idea what "statement" is as I have never seen a statement on a piece of gear that made it behave differently.

Regardless, Zenimax has demonstrated they do not want to balance things differently for PvE and PvP outside of battle spirit. The only thing they have done is create special campaigns to lock out proc and/or CP. Otherwise, skill and sets perform pretty much the same way outside of damage and healing being reduced. There may be one of exception going on but I cannot think of one.

ChaoticWings3

"While battle spirit is active" statements should be used to balance sets and separate PVE and PVP effects

Amottica wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance but I have no idea what "statement" is as I have never seen a statement on a piece of gear that made it behave differently.

I think the best way to kind of demonstrate it is use oakensoul as an example. Before it use to to apply some really powerful major buffs, now whether or not those should have remained is up to debate, but there were 2 that caused some issues in pvp which was the constant use of major force (extremely difficult to achieve outside of group trial sets) and major heroism which was achievable through a very tight window on a cp point, a tanking set where you were forced to bash, a resurrection set, or daedric trickery which may give the buff randomly. So the set kind of read like this:

1 item: While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets and gain Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Force, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Major Heroism.

Like I said, probably needed a balance regardless but for some sets that were overperforming in a pvp environment I thought something like this could be added to the description instead.

1 item: While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets and gain Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Force, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Major Heroism.

While battle spirit is active: Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Force, Major Protection, and Major heroism are replaced with Minor berserk, Minor courage, Minor force, Minor protection, and Minor heroism.

Just a side note: I think the oakensoul ring is fine how it is right now. Mostly just using this as an example to show case what I was asking in the poll. Sometimes a nerf to something seems a little too heavy at times on sets and it leads to the set not being pursued anymore or creates a sunk cost into something that you spent hours grinding that makes the set feel pointless later.

So I hope this clears things up. I am a little in between on how things get balanced but I'm usually fairly accepting of them. Recently though they seem to be harder than usual so I was curious if statements like this (especially if the issue was more pvp oriented) would help reduce the frustration coming from the nerf and be able to balance the set better for PVE. (that is not to say the PVE side would possibly need to be adjusted but probably not as heavily so we could still see use from it).

Amottica

ChaoticWings3 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance but I have no idea what "statement" is as I have never seen a statement on a piece of gear that made it behave differently.

I think the best way to kind of demonstrate it is use oakensoul as an example. Before it use to to apply some really powerful major buffs, now whether or not those should have remained is up to debate, but there were 2 that caused some issues in pvp which was the constant use of major force (extremely difficult to achieve outside of group trial sets) and major heroism which was achievable through a very tight window on a cp point, a tanking set where you were forced to bash, a resurrection set, or daedric trickery which may give the buff randomly. So the set kind of read like this:

1 item: While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets and gain Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Force, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Major Heroism.

Like I said, probably needed a balance regardless but for some sets that were overperforming in a pvp environment I thought something like this could be added to the description instead.

1 item: While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets and gain Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Force, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Major Heroism.

While battle spirit is active: Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Force, Major Protection, and Major heroism are replaced with Minor berserk, Minor courage, Minor force, Minor protection, and Minor heroism.

Just a side note: I think the oakensoul ring is fine how it is right now. Mostly just using this as an example to show case what I was asking in the poll. Sometimes a nerf to something seems a little too heavy at times on sets and it leads to the set not being pursued anymore or creates a sunk cost into something that you spent hours grinding that makes the set feel pointless later.

So I hope this clears things up. I am a little in between on how things get balanced but I'm usually fairly accepting of them. Recently though they seem to be harder than usual so I was curious if statements like this (especially if the issue was more pvp oriented) would help reduce the frustration coming from the nerf and be able to balance the set better for PVE. (that is not to say the PVE side would possibly need to be adjusted but probably not as heavily so we could still see use from it).

It appears OP is talking about adding something that is not already used in a game since there is nothing called a statement tied to anything we have. I have never seen any game use something they called a statement. What you are explaining is mere tooltips and I was asking what a "statement" is.

Also, Zenimax is adamant about balancing PvE and PvP together so your suggestions of whatever they are would seem unlikely.

Necrotech_Master

"While battle spirit is active" statements should be used to balance sets and separate PVE and PVP effects

Amottica wrote: »

ChaoticWings3 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance but I have no idea what "statement" is as I have never seen a statement on a piece of gear that made it behave differently.

I think the best way to kind of demonstrate it is use oakensoul as an example. Before it use to to apply some really powerful major buffs, now whether or not those should have remained is up to debate, but there were 2 that caused some issues in pvp which was the constant use of major force (extremely difficult to achieve outside of group trial sets) and major heroism which was achievable through a very tight window on a cp point, a tanking set where you were forced to bash, a resurrection set, or daedric trickery which may give the buff randomly. So the set kind of read like this:

1 item: While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets and gain Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Force, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Major Heroism.

Like I said, probably needed a balance regardless but for some sets that were overperforming in a pvp environment I thought something like this could be added to the description instead.

1 item: While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets and gain Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Force, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Major Heroism.

While battle spirit is active: Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Force, Major Protection, and Major heroism are replaced with Minor berserk, Minor courage, Minor force, Minor protection, and Minor heroism.

Just a side note: I think the oakensoul ring is fine how it is right now. Mostly just using this as an example to show case what I was asking in the poll. Sometimes a nerf to something seems a little too heavy at times on sets and it leads to the set not being pursued anymore or creates a sunk cost into something that you spent hours grinding that makes the set feel pointless later.

So I hope this clears things up. I am a little in between on how things get balanced but I'm usually fairly accepting of them. Recently though they seem to be harder than usual so I was curious if statements like this (especially if the issue was more pvp oriented) would help reduce the frustration coming from the nerf and be able to balance the set better for PVE. (that is not to say the PVE side would possibly need to be adjusted but probably not as heavily so we could still see use from it).

It appears OP is talking about adding something that is not already used in a game since there is nothing called a statement tied to anything we have. I have never seen any game use something they called a statement. What you are explaining is mere tooltips and I was asking what a "statement" is.

Also, Zenimax is adamant about balancing PvE and PvP together so your suggestions of whatever they are would seem unlikely.

it is already in the game

the only set currently stating the "while battle spirit active" requirement is rallying cry

2 items: Adds 15-657 Critical Chance
3 items: Adds 25-1096 Maximum Magicka
4 items: Adds 15-657 Critical Chance
5 items: While Battle Spirit is active, critically healing yourself or an ally causes you and up to 11 other group members within 12 meters to gain 6-300 Weapon and Spell Damage, and 38-1650 Critical Resistance for 20 seconds. Each group member affected reduces the Weapon and Spell Damage by 0-15 and Critical Resistance by 1-83. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.

Amottica

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

ChaoticWings3 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance but I have no idea what "statement" is as I have never seen a statement on a piece of gear that made it behave differently.

I think the best way to kind of demonstrate it is use oakensoul as an example. Before it use to to apply some really powerful major buffs, now whether or not those should have remained is up to debate, but there were 2 that caused some issues in pvp which was the constant use of major force (extremely difficult to achieve outside of group trial sets) and major heroism which was achievable through a very tight window on a cp point, a tanking set where you were forced to bash, a resurrection set, or daedric trickery which may give the buff randomly. So the set kind of read like this:

1 item: While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets and gain Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Force, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Major Heroism.

Like I said, probably needed a balance regardless but for some sets that were overperforming in a pvp environment I thought something like this could be added to the description instead.

1 item: While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets and gain Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Force, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Major Heroism.

While battle spirit is active: Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Force, Major Protection, and Major heroism are replaced with Minor berserk, Minor courage, Minor force, Minor protection, and Minor heroism.

Just a side note: I think the oakensoul ring is fine how it is right now. Mostly just using this as an example to show case what I was asking in the poll. Sometimes a nerf to something seems a little too heavy at times on sets and it leads to the set not being pursued anymore or creates a sunk cost into something that you spent hours grinding that makes the set feel pointless later.

So I hope this clears things up. I am a little in between on how things get balanced but I'm usually fairly accepting of them. Recently though they seem to be harder than usual so I was curious if statements like this (especially if the issue was more pvp oriented) would help reduce the frustration coming from the nerf and be able to balance the set better for PVE. (that is not to say the PVE side would possibly need to be adjusted but probably not as heavily so we could still see use from it).

It appears OP is talking about adding something that is not already used in a game since there is nothing called a statement tied to anything we have. I have never seen any game use something they called a statement. What you are explaining is mere tooltips and I was asking what a "statement" is.

Also, Zenimax is adamant about balancing PvE and PvP together so your suggestions of whatever they are would seem unlikely.

it is already in the game

the only set currently stating the "while battle spirit active" requirement is rallying cry

2 items: Adds 15-657 Critical Chance
3 items: Adds 25-1096 Maximum Magicka
4 items: Adds 15-657 Critical Chance
5 items: While Battle Spirit is active, critically healing yourself or an ally causes you and up to 11 other group members within 12 meters to gain 6-300 Weapon and Spell Damage, and 38-1650 Critical Resistance for 20 seconds. Each group member affected reduces the Weapon and Spell Damage by 0-15 and Critical Resistance by 1-83. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.

You misunderstood what I have been saying and that is clearer now just as it is not clear what the OP is trying to say.

Zenimax doesn’t call that a statement nor does any other MMORPG. It’s just the normal description for a the set bonus.

Even with that, it appears your example is a PvP specific set as it doesn’t have a PvE aspect to the 5pc bonus. There are other sets that are aspects that are PvP specific. With this being the case it still seems Zenimax is sticking to their guns and not balancing things differently betwern PvE and PvP (not saying they never will) and I rest my case.

Necrotech_Master

"While battle spirit is active" statements should be used to balance sets and separate PVE and PVP effects

Amottica wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

ChaoticWings3 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance but I have no idea what "statement" is as I have never seen a statement on a piece of gear that made it behave differently.

I think the best way to kind of demonstrate it is use oakensoul as an example. Before it use to to apply some really powerful major buffs, now whether or not those should have remained is up to debate, but there were 2 that caused some issues in pvp which was the constant use of major force (extremely difficult to achieve outside of group trial sets) and major heroism which was achievable through a very tight window on a cp point, a tanking set where you were forced to bash, a resurrection set, or daedric trickery which may give the buff randomly. So the set kind of read like this:

1 item: While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets and gain Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Force, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Major Heroism.

Like I said, probably needed a balance regardless but for some sets that were overperforming in a pvp environment I thought something like this could be added to the description instead.

1 item: While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets and gain Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Force, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Major Heroism.

While battle spirit is active: Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Force, Major Protection, and Major heroism are replaced with Minor berserk, Minor courage, Minor force, Minor protection, and Minor heroism.

Just a side note: I think the oakensoul ring is fine how it is right now. Mostly just using this as an example to show case what I was asking in the poll. Sometimes a nerf to something seems a little too heavy at times on sets and it leads to the set not being pursued anymore or creates a sunk cost into something that you spent hours grinding that makes the set feel pointless later.

So I hope this clears things up. I am a little in between on how things get balanced but I'm usually fairly accepting of them. Recently though they seem to be harder than usual so I was curious if statements like this (especially if the issue was more pvp oriented) would help reduce the frustration coming from the nerf and be able to balance the set better for PVE. (that is not to say the PVE side would possibly need to be adjusted but probably not as heavily so we could still see use from it).

It appears OP is talking about adding something that is not already used in a game since there is nothing called a statement tied to anything we have. I have never seen any game use something they called a statement. What you are explaining is mere tooltips and I was asking what a "statement" is.

Also, Zenimax is adamant about balancing PvE and PvP together so your suggestions of whatever they are would seem unlikely.

it is already in the game

the only set currently stating the "while battle spirit active" requirement is rallying cry

2 items: Adds 15-657 Critical Chance
3 items: Adds 25-1096 Maximum Magicka
4 items: Adds 15-657 Critical Chance
5 items: While Battle Spirit is active, critically healing yourself or an ally causes you and up to 11 other group members within 12 meters to gain 6-300 Weapon and Spell Damage, and 38-1650 Critical Resistance for 20 seconds. Each group member affected reduces the Weapon and Spell Damage by 0-15 and Critical Resistance by 1-83. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.

You misunderstood what I have been saying and that is clearer now just as it is not clear what the OP is trying to say.

Zenimax doesn’t call that a statement nor does any other MMORPG. It’s just the normal description for a the set bonus.

Even with that, it appears your example is a PvP specific set as it doesn’t have a PvE aspect to the 5pc bonus. There are other sets that are aspects that are PvP specific. With this being the case it still seems Zenimax is sticking to their guns and not balancing things differently betwern PvE and PvP (not saying they never will) and I rest my case.

in the necrom patch they are making some slightly more pve specific

adding "only against monsters" is basically saying that it doesnt work in pvp, because it wont apply against players (such as stuff like empower does now)

but as i noted in an earlier post in this thread, that can still cause issues in places that are heavy mix of pvp and pve such as IC

saying storm master only works against monsters wont stop the issues with the trifocus passive indirectly applying that bonus to players, even though their intention is clear that they want to make the set pve only by adding the "only works against monsters" requirement

edit to add: or in the case of plaguebreak making it only work against players, which effectively removes it from pve

jaws343

Amottica wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

ChaoticWings3 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance but I have no idea what "statement" is as I have never seen a statement on a piece of gear that made it behave differently.

I think the best way to kind of demonstrate it is use oakensoul as an example. Before it use to to apply some really powerful major buffs, now whether or not those should have remained is up to debate, but there were 2 that caused some issues in pvp which was the constant use of major force (extremely difficult to achieve outside of group trial sets) and major heroism which was achievable through a very tight window on a cp point, a tanking set where you were forced to bash, a resurrection set, or daedric trickery which may give the buff randomly. So the set kind of read like this:

1 item: While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets and gain Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Force, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Major Heroism.

Like I said, probably needed a balance regardless but for some sets that were overperforming in a pvp environment I thought something like this could be added to the description instead.

1 item: While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets and gain Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Force, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Major Heroism.

While battle spirit is active: Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Force, Major Protection, and Major heroism are replaced with Minor berserk, Minor courage, Minor force, Minor protection, and Minor heroism.

Just a side note: I think the oakensoul ring is fine how it is right now. Mostly just using this as an example to show case what I was asking in the poll. Sometimes a nerf to something seems a little too heavy at times on sets and it leads to the set not being pursued anymore or creates a sunk cost into something that you spent hours grinding that makes the set feel pointless later.

So I hope this clears things up. I am a little in between on how things get balanced but I'm usually fairly accepting of them. Recently though they seem to be harder than usual so I was curious if statements like this (especially if the issue was more pvp oriented) would help reduce the frustration coming from the nerf and be able to balance the set better for PVE. (that is not to say the PVE side would possibly need to be adjusted but probably not as heavily so we could still see use from it).

It appears OP is talking about adding something that is not already used in a game since there is nothing called a statement tied to anything we have. I have never seen any game use something they called a statement. What you are explaining is mere tooltips and I was asking what a "statement" is.

Also, Zenimax is adamant about balancing PvE and PvP together so your suggestions of whatever they are would seem unlikely.

it is already in the game

the only set currently stating the "while battle spirit active" requirement is rallying cry

2 items: Adds 15-657 Critical Chance
3 items: Adds 25-1096 Maximum Magicka
4 items: Adds 15-657 Critical Chance
5 items: While Battle Spirit is active, critically healing yourself or an ally causes you and up to 11 other group members within 12 meters to gain 6-300 Weapon and Spell Damage, and 38-1650 Critical Resistance for 20 seconds. Each group member affected reduces the Weapon and Spell Damage by 0-15 and Critical Resistance by 1-83. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.

You misunderstood what I have been saying and that is clearer now just as it is not clear what the OP is trying to say.

Zenimax doesn’t call that a statement nor does any other MMORPG. It’s just the normal description for a the set bonus.

Even with that, it appears your example is a PvP specific set as it doesn’t have a PvE aspect to the 5pc bonus. There are other sets that are aspects that are PvP specific. With this being the case it still seems Zenimax is sticking to their guns and not balancing things differently betwern PvE and PvP (not saying they never will) and I rest my case.

I think you are slightly misunderstanding how "statement" is being used.

The statement: "while battle spirit is active" is a description of the functionality of the set.

So, the OP is only asking why that functionality isn't utilized more to distinguish set functionality between PVP and PVE environments.

Obviously, a statement/description isn't literal functionality, but it does describe functionality.

ChaoticWings3

"While battle spirit is active" statements should be used to balance sets and separate PVE and PVP effects

Amottica wrote: »

It appears OP is talking about adding something that is not already used in a game since there is nothing called a statement tied to anything we have. I have never seen any game use something they called a statement. What you are explaining is mere tooltips and I was asking what a "statement" is.

I do apologize for using the word "statement" to describe what I was asking but it is what others are saying which is an extra line in the description of the 5pc bonus of the set that would add a boolean variable to detect whether or not battle spirit is active (which only applies in a pvp environment) that would replace an effect that would be fine in a PVE environment to an effect that would be more balanced in a PVP environment. So with the previous example description in mind a pvp set could have a weaker 5pc bonus in a PVE environment (do less dmg, healing, etc.) but by placing the variable in the set description "while battle spirit is active:" the set could have increased parameters only in a pvp environment. This is something that others argue in the case of plaguebreak. The thing with plaguebreak though is that they noticed it helping to clear group content too easily (especially solo) so that is where the nerf sort of came from. A good way to balance it for PVE (at least in my opinion) would probably to remove the cascading effect that hits groups of enemies and instead just apply a single AOE dmg proc. But because the issue was still coming from monsters in PVP environments you could add "While battle spirit is active this set only applies to players. When the plague is removed early it does x dmg in a AOE of 8 meters and dmg increases by 50% for every player within the 8 meters.

In the case of mara's balm for example (not exactly the best set to use in a PVE environment but that is another case entirely) the cooldown could have been set at 15 seconds in PVE because in the while battle spirit is active description of the set (theoretical description) it would do the changed 30 seconds description.

I may be confusing you more so I apologize again. Still the confusion you are experiencing towards my question is a good indication of maybe descriptions like that shouldn't be put in because it may cause confusion which in my original post was part of my theory of why it wasn't implemented more. This is part of the reason why I wished to discuss this more.

Amottica wrote: »

Also, Zenimax is adamant about balancing PvE and PvP together so your suggestions of whatever they are would seem unlikely.

I never thought that this would change anything if at all. I still think conversations like this are important since it does bring player thoughts on the subject and I have seen changes farther down the line from conversations like this. At the end of the day it is Zenimax's game so decisions do fall completely with them. I mostly ended up making this post because I want the game to succeed and not disappear because of decisions over time since I was noticing some player frustration from the recent patches. This is why I encourage thoughts on the opposite side of the argument so as to better understand player sentiment.

I also apologize for my very long winded explanations. I tend to over explain a lot. XD

Amottica

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

ChaoticWings3 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance but I have no idea what "statement" is as I have never seen a statement on a piece of gear that made it behave differently.

I think the best way to kind of demonstrate it is use oakensoul as an example. Before it use to to apply some really powerful major buffs, now whether or not those should have remained is up to debate, but there were 2 that caused some issues in pvp which was the constant use of major force (extremely difficult to achieve outside of group trial sets) and major heroism which was achievable through a very tight window on a cp point, a tanking set where you were forced to bash, a resurrection set, or daedric trickery which may give the buff randomly. So the set kind of read like this:

1 item: While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets and gain Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Force, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Major Heroism.

Like I said, probably needed a balance regardless but for some sets that were overperforming in a pvp environment I thought something like this could be added to the description instead.

1 item: While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets and gain Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Force, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Major Heroism.

While battle spirit is active: Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Force, Major Protection, and Major heroism are replaced with Minor berserk, Minor courage, Minor force, Minor protection, and Minor heroism.

Just a side note: I think the oakensoul ring is fine how it is right now. Mostly just using this as an example to show case what I was asking in the poll. Sometimes a nerf to something seems a little too heavy at times on sets and it leads to the set not being pursued anymore or creates a sunk cost into something that you spent hours grinding that makes the set feel pointless later.

So I hope this clears things up. I am a little in between on how things get balanced but I'm usually fairly accepting of them. Recently though they seem to be harder than usual so I was curious if statements like this (especially if the issue was more pvp oriented) would help reduce the frustration coming from the nerf and be able to balance the set better for PVE. (that is not to say the PVE side would possibly need to be adjusted but probably not as heavily so we could still see use from it).

It appears OP is talking about adding something that is not already used in a game since there is nothing called a statement tied to anything we have. I have never seen any game use something they called a statement. What you are explaining is mere tooltips and I was asking what a "statement" is.

Also, Zenimax is adamant about balancing PvE and PvP together so your suggestions of whatever they are would seem unlikely.

it is already in the game

the only set currently stating the "while battle spirit active" requirement is rallying cry

2 items: Adds 15-657 Critical Chance
3 items: Adds 25-1096 Maximum Magicka
4 items: Adds 15-657 Critical Chance
5 items: While Battle Spirit is active, critically healing yourself or an ally causes you and up to 11 other group members within 12 meters to gain 6-300 Weapon and Spell Damage, and 38-1650 Critical Resistance for 20 seconds. Each group member affected reduces the Weapon and Spell Damage by 0-15 and Critical Resistance by 1-83. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.

You misunderstood what I have been saying and that is clearer now just as it is not clear what the OP is trying to say.

Zenimax doesn’t call that a statement nor does any other MMORPG. It’s just the normal description for a the set bonus.

Even with that, it appears your example is a PvP specific set as it doesn’t have a PvE aspect to the 5pc bonus. There are other sets that are aspects that are PvP specific. With this being the case it still seems Zenimax is sticking to their guns and not balancing things differently betwern PvE and PvP (not saying they never will) and I rest my case.

in the necrom patch they are making some slightly more pve specific

adding "only against monsters" is basically saying that it doesnt work in pvp, because it wont apply against players (such as stuff like empower does now)

but as i noted in an earlier post in this thread, that can still cause issues in places that are heavy mix of pvp and pve such as IC

saying storm master only works against monsters wont stop the issues with the trifocus passive indirectly applying that bonus to players, even though their intention is clear that they want to make the set pve only by adding the "only works against monsters" requirement

edit to add: or in the case of plaguebreak making it only work against players, which effectively removes it from pve

There have always been stuff like that. For years most sets that drop in trials have a 3pc that only works in dungeons and raids. I think it has been since the game launched or soon after there have been set bonuses that only worked against players.

Such things are extremely limited and do not fit what the OP is suggesting as there is nothing in the description that says it does something different in the other realm.

So what is being presented as examples of this already in the game is not really examples of what the OP is suggesting.

bachpain

"While battle spirit is active" statements should be used to balance sets and separate PVE and PVP effects

This is a no brainer.

merpins

"While battle spirit is active" statements should be used to balance sets and separate PVE and PVP effects

Not just sets. do it for skills too for goodness sake.

ChaoticWings3

"While battle spirit is active" statements should be used to balance sets and separate PVE and PVP effects

merpins wrote: »

Not just sets. do it for skills too for goodness sake.

I think that may get confusing if it was in a similar fashion. Its a bit easier when its a set since a single sentence with an extra variable would be able to separate the distinction between the two. Not to mention that not everyone would use that set. With skills though it would get very wordy. The only way I would see something worked out would be to create a completely separate build environment to pvp but that would take too much effort to make. Skills defiantly need more of a light touch in balancing then sets. I am open to other's thoughts on the skill side but that may be worth making a separate topic on that area.

Minno

Prefer to have the set adjusted completely.

this type of balancing only works for pve (think of threat mechanics). But in content where you have burst/high+low moments of gameplay and unscripted events, it is important to design the classes/weapons around stuff being strong in one content over the other. Think of chess; you don't have pawns operating on their own board and rooks/kings/queens on another. They all exist on the same ecosystem plane and you should tailor the differences to create a series of balances/imbalances.

Proper balance in the eyes of players only results in a flat, boring homogeneous game deck. And it makes it harder to balance after the fact anyway.

Draxund

Prefer to have the set adjusted completely.

I don't care how they go about doing it, whether by using battle spirit or just designing separate gear entirely, but PvP and PvE needs to be balanced separately. It's really the only hope I have left for the game. If they started balancing things separately (like nearly every other MMO does), it would go a LONG way to bring some much-needed health to this game. Most other games have PvP gear and PvE gear, and some even utilize a battle spirit-like mechanic on top of that too. I mean even from the ZOS perspective, although this would take a lot of work initially, wouldn't it save a ton of future work and hardship when balancing long term??