ZOS - thank you for raising floor, I share my feedback

Luke_Flamesword

So, I finally tried for first time heavy attack Oakensoul build, because the are a lot of noise because of newest update (which for me personally are just a little adjustments, not serious nerfs). I was avoiding that for long time, because idea of one-bar build sounded too limiting for me, but I had one sorc alt, so I made build for him just to try. And it was like WOW. I didn't know that I wanted it until I played it. Why?

Well, I never liked concept of perfect rotation, where you have calculated every second of every skill. If I like things like this, I would rather just learn to play piano. It does not mean, that I played in complete chaos - I optimised my builds, use right buffs, learn to use my skills smart, in right order, so I made good enough damage. I just gave me some flexibility to react what's going on area and adjust using of skills to situation like you did in PvP. It was enough to play vet dungeons and arenas. I beat vMA couple times, it was not a big problem when you learn mechanics, but it was a bit stressfull and too intensive sometimes, so I don't like it make it more that I have to. With Vateshran there was no big problems with all bossess, until finale. Eh, last phase was always just too much and I gave up, because it was so intensive, that I didn't have a pleasure from it. I play for pleasure, so if something gives me more stress than relax - I don't do it. Also my wife complains that there is too much noise with all these smashing mouse and keyboard buttons.

Yesterday I tried veteran Vateshran with new heavy attack Oaken-sorc and I was shocked how much it changed playing. I actually focused more on enemies and mechanics, than on skillbar, all buffs, timers, skills and crazy clicking to apply them all. It was almost peacefull, but still somehow needed to focus and pay attention, because moment of distraction makes you dead. That was it! That was MEDIUM DIFFICULTY, which I was wished for. Without it, it was like bore to death or smash buttons like crazy. This is the middleground - I get some challenge, I died (how good is to die from time to time!), but when I died, I was feeling that this was 100% my fault, not just being overhelmed by so many things going on. I actually learn more about mechanics in final fight, because I was able to focus on them. In classical build, I was just overhelmed with managing skills, protecting, limited sustain and many mor things. It was just a bit too much. Of course, you can learn all of it, you can learn almost everything if you really want, but there is question if you really want to hate the game, before you will achieve that. In other hand normal was just and boring without almost any challenge at all.

I hated Vateshran, but now I even want to play it again on vet! And I even want to play some more times on Heavy build to feel more confident and then try to beat it with 2-bar build. It was practitally dead content for me and know I want to play and learn more, because everything I wanted it was more steps to learn, not just being thrown from quite easy normal to very stressfull veteran.

I know that some players hate these builds and thinks that this is not fair for these who achieved things harder way. You must consider that this is not Olympics, but only a game for fun and pleasure and there are many people who for many reason are not capable to achieve higher levels of perfect combat. They shouldn't be excluded only because some other wants to feel more special with their achievements.

ZOS - thx that you are trying to raise floor without increasing power creep, this is good direction for all of us (especially considering PUGs) and only thing that hurts is only some peoples ego's, which is not something we should worry too much. It should be fun for all of us and as long as normal builds gives opportunity to make bit higher dps, it will be fair, because the best ones still will best ones, but at the same others won't so much behind them. I think that's best direction on combat balance.

PS. Pls, don't overnerf Velothi mythic, maybe just redesign it, if it was too strong in some scenarios? It should have to give more potential power than Oakensouls (because it will be harder to manage 2 bars) but of course still not overperforming.

Tradewind

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

So, I finally tried for first time heavy attack Oakensoul build, because the are a lot of noise because of newest update (which for me personally are just a little adjustments, not serious nerfs). I was avoiding that for long time, because idea of one-bar build sounded too limiting for me, but I had one sorc alt, so I made build for him just to try. And it was like WOW. I didn't know that I wanted it until I played it. Why?

Well, I never liked concept of perfect rotation, where you have calculated every second of every skill. If I like things like this, I would rather just learn to play piano. It does not mean, that I played in complete chaos - I optimised my builds, use right buffs, learn to use my skills smart, in right order, so I made good enough damage. I just gave me some flexibility to react what's going on area and adjust using of skills to situation like you did in PvP. It was enough to play vet dungeons and arenas. I beat vMA couple times, it was not a big problem when you learn mechanics, but it was a bit stressfull and too intensive sometimes, so I don't like it make it more that I have to. With Vateshran there was no big problems with all bossess, until finale. Eh, last phase was always just too much and I gave up, because it was so intensive, that I didn't have a pleasure from it. I play for pleasure, so if something gives me more stress than relax - I don't do it. Also my wife complains that there is too much noise with all these smashing mouse and keyboard buttons.

Yesterday I tried veteran Vateshran with new heavy attack Oaken-sorc and I was shocked how much it changed playing. I actually focused more on enemies and mechanics, than on skillbar, all buffs, timers, skills and crazy clicking to apply them all. It was almost peacefull, but still somehow needed to focus and pay attention, because moment of distraction makes you dead. That was it! That was MEDIUM DIFFICULTY, which I was wished for. Without it, it was like bore to death or smash buttons like crazy. This is the middleground - I get some challenge, I died (how good is to die from time to time!), but when I died, I was feeling that this was 100% my fault, not just being overhelmed by so many things going on. I actually learn more about mechanics in final fight, because I was able to focus on them. In classical build, I was just overhelmed with managing skills, protecting, limited sustain and many mor things. It was just a bit too much. Of course, you can learn all of it, you can learn almost everything if you really want, but there is question if you really want to hate the game, before you will achieve that. In other hand normal was just and boring without almost any challenge at all.

I hated Vateshran, but now I even want to play it again on vet! And I even want to play some more times on Heavy build to feel more confident and then try to beat it with 2-bar build. It was practitally dead content for me and know I want to play and learn more, because everything I wanted it was more steps to learn, not just being thrown from quite easy normal to very stressfull veteran.

I know that some players hate these builds and thinks that this is not fair for these who achieved things harder way. You must consider that this is not Olympics, but only a game for fun and pleasure and there are many people who for many reason are not capable to achieve higher levels of perfect combat. They shouldn't be excluded only because some other wants to feel more special with their achievements.

ZOS - thx that you are trying to raise floor without increasing power creep, this is good direction for all of us (especially considering PUGs) and only thing that hurts is only some peoples ego's, which is not something we should worry too much. It should be fun for all of us and as long as normal builds gives opportunity to make bit higher dps, it will be fair, because the best ones still will best ones, but at the same others won't so much behind them. I think that's best direction on combat balance.

PS. Pls, don't overnerf Velothi mythic, maybe just redesign it, if it was too strong in some scenarios? It should have to give more potential power than Oakensouls (because it will be harder to manage 2 bars) but of course still not overperforming.

I'm glad you liked the build.
I think that was Zenimax's idea when they released Oakensoul. They wanted to make players focus on the game mechanics and targets rather than always looking at the skill bar. Of course, Zenimax also thought of players who have difficulty with rotation, and they did something absolutely incredible. They gave the opportunity for many more players to enjoy the game itself, obtain achievements that would otherwise never be possible, and surprisingly, everyone who uses Oakensoul likes it. I have never seen anyone say that it could be better here or worse there; I think the general idea of those who use the ring is: "It's perfect, please don't change it."
Unfortunately, this was the illusion I created when Zenimax released the High-Isle chapter. Sadly, my illusion that we were being helped turned into something worse. Apparently, the idea was not to help but something else.

Some players know how to get the most out of this build. They know exactly where to position themselves to get more damage, they know exactly when to use a certain skill to deal more damage, in short, they are almost as good as the best LA weaving players; "Almost as good." They are not, never have been, and never should be better. They are just "Almost as good." All the other casual players who use this build are happy because they can finally enjoy the game.

Apparently, the fun will decrease because Zenimax will nerf this build. Best HA players are already worse then Best LA players, but they need to be even worse.
For all those who only use HA but are not as good as others.... well.... I'm sorry for you all. The fun will end soon!

TybaltKaine

This was a great post OP. Love the idea of calling it medium difficulty, that's what it is.

Ignore the negativity. Keep enjoying playing how you want and making the most of this game we all love.

tsaescishoeshiner

Glad you liked it! I personally really like not having to keeps buffs up because I find it a very bland part of rotations.

I've also really liked heavy attack Oakensoul on Necromancer because you're very tanky with Spirit Guardian and get to throw blastbones at people. You also get more heavy attack crits.

Warden also has good AoE and healing for it with Fissure and Living Trellis, plus some bonus critical damage and passive DPS from bear.

Nightblade ran into some barspace issues for me. Haven't tried Templar or DK!

Kusto

Tradewind wrote: »

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

So, I finally tried for first time heavy attack Oakensoul build, because the are a lot of noise because of newest update (which for me personally are just a little adjustments, not serious nerfs). I was avoiding that for long time, because idea of one-bar build sounded too limiting for me, but I had one sorc alt, so I made build for him just to try. And it was like WOW. I didn't know that I wanted it until I played it. Why?

Well, I never liked concept of perfect rotation, where you have calculated every second of every skill. If I like things like this, I would rather just learn to play piano. It does not mean, that I played in complete chaos - I optimised my builds, use right buffs, learn to use my skills smart, in right order, so I made good enough damage. I just gave me some flexibility to react what's going on area and adjust using of skills to situation like you did in PvP. It was enough to play vet dungeons and arenas. I beat vMA couple times, it was not a big problem when you learn mechanics, but it was a bit stressfull and too intensive sometimes, so I don't like it make it more that I have to. With Vateshran there was no big problems with all bossess, until finale. Eh, last phase was always just too much and I gave up, because it was so intensive, that I didn't have a pleasure from it. I play for pleasure, so if something gives me more stress than relax - I don't do it. Also my wife complains that there is too much noise with all these smashing mouse and keyboard buttons.

Yesterday I tried veteran Vateshran with new heavy attack Oaken-sorc and I was shocked how much it changed playing. I actually focused more on enemies and mechanics, than on skillbar, all buffs, timers, skills and crazy clicking to apply them all. It was almost peacefull, but still somehow needed to focus and pay attention, because moment of distraction makes you dead. That was it! That was MEDIUM DIFFICULTY, which I was wished for. Without it, it was like bore to death or smash buttons like crazy. This is the middleground - I get some challenge, I died (how good is to die from time to time!), but when I died, I was feeling that this was 100% my fault, not just being overhelmed by so many things going on. I actually learn more about mechanics in final fight, because I was able to focus on them. In classical build, I was just overhelmed with managing skills, protecting, limited sustain and many mor things. It was just a bit too much. Of course, you can learn all of it, you can learn almost everything if you really want, but there is question if you really want to hate the game, before you will achieve that. In other hand normal was just and boring without almost any challenge at all.

I hated Vateshran, but now I even want to play it again on vet! And I even want to play some more times on Heavy build to feel more confident and then try to beat it with 2-bar build. It was practitally dead content for me and know I want to play and learn more, because everything I wanted it was more steps to learn, not just being thrown from quite easy normal to very stressfull veteran.

I know that some players hate these builds and thinks that this is not fair for these who achieved things harder way. You must consider that this is not Olympics, but only a game for fun and pleasure and there are many people who for many reason are not capable to achieve higher levels of perfect combat. They shouldn't be excluded only because some other wants to feel more special with their achievements.

ZOS - thx that you are trying to raise floor without increasing power creep, this is good direction for all of us (especially considering PUGs) and only thing that hurts is only some peoples ego's, which is not something we should worry too much. It should be fun for all of us and as long as normal builds gives opportunity to make bit higher dps, it will be fair, because the best ones still will best ones, but at the same others won't so much behind them. I think that's best direction on combat balance.

PS. Pls, don't overnerf Velothi mythic, maybe just redesign it, if it was too strong in some scenarios? It should have to give more potential power than Oakensouls (because it will be harder to manage 2 bars) but of course still not overperforming.

Apparently, the fun will decrease because Zenimax will nerf this build. Best HA players are already worse then Best LA players, but they need to be even worse.
For all those who only use HA but are not as good as others.... well.... I'm sorry for you all. The fun will end soon!

They only nerfed it 5%. Why spread false information and negativity in every thread.

And there is no best ha players as EVERYONE can hold down button and get 80k. But how many players can actually get 80k with 2 bar builds? Not even half the playerbase, not even close. We need to stop comparing the "best" HA vs the best LA players because the latter is only small minority.

ADarklore

Kusto wrote: »

They only nerfed it 5%. Why spread false information and negativity in every thread.

And there is no best ha players as EVERYONE can hold down button and get 80k. But how many players can actually get 80k with 2 bar builds? Not even half the playerbase, not even close. We need to stop comparing the "best" HA vs the best LA players because the latter is only small minority.

^THIS! They've already received a lot of negative feedback from many many players just because they nerfed Empower a teeny tiny amount, NOT the Oakensoul ring (which people keep spreading as further false information) eg. "Get ready for the big nerf to Oakensoul" kind of lies. ZOS is quite aware that nerfing Oakensoul or HA builds any further would heavily impact players with disabilities and many others who enjoy Oakensoul and have come to enjoy the game even more because of it. They reduced Empower a tiny amount just to appease the vocal minority complaining about HA builds... so at least now they can say, "We've addressed the HA situation with the Empower reduction" and leave it at that.

TaSheen

I wouldn't care if they removed Empower totally.... And no, I don't use HA builds. I despise the HA play style. I love my 1bar Oak build with class skills and weapon spammable.

Of course, i don't do group content. So (as per usual) I'm an outlier....

ADarklore

TaSheen wrote: »

I wouldn't care if they removed Empower totally.... And no, I don't use HA builds. I despise the HA play style. I love my 1bar Oak build with class skills and weapon spammable.

Of course, i don't do group content. So (as per usual) I'm an outlier....

So you wouldn't care if they removed something that YOU don't use anyway, who cares about other players right?!?

Gruumsh1

One bar HA build sorc restored my interest in this game. I now have pretty good dps and I'm not stressed hammering buttons when I play to try and keep a rotation going. It's a new life in the game for me. Thanks ZOS.

TaSheen

ADarklore wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I wouldn't care if they removed Empower totally.... And no, I don't use HA builds. I despise the HA play style. I love my 1bar Oak build with class skills and weapon spammable.

Of course, i don't do group content. So (as per usual) I'm an outlier....

So you wouldn't care if they removed something that YOU don't use anyway, who cares about other players right?!?

That's a personal opinion for my own situation alone (and reflects the opinions of one of the most "vocal" of those blasting end game "elitists" in the other thread - the one who advocated getting rid of all the Oak buffs instead of a minor nerf to empower). All it means is that I will adapt (as I always do) no matter what happens (and for me personally, empower provides nothing).

I don't really want anything nerfed EVER, but I'm (again), a total outlier. My opinion has no relevance at all.

Woodenplank

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Glad you liked it! I personally really like not having to keeps buffs up because I find it a very bland part of rotations.

I've also really liked heavy attack Oakensoul on Necromancer because you're very tanky with Spirit Guardian and get to throw blastbones at people. You also get more heavy attack crits.

Warden also has good AoE and healing for it with Fissure and Living Trellis, plus some bonus critical damage and passive DPS from bear.

Nightblade ran into some barspace issues for me. Haven't tried Templar or DK!

I also enjoyed Necrokensoul, but similarly found that Nightblades simply need (or benefit from) too many skills. Similarly with Sorcerer - Oakensoul means not having to cast Hurricane and Critical Surge for Major Resolve/Brutality... But I want to cast those abilities any way, for their secondary effects!

For Dragonknight, may I recommend: Blade Cloak + Whip + Petrify (Either morph, really) + Coagulating Blood + Flames of Oblivion.
Gives you the heals, the damage, Major Evasion (one of the few things you don't get from Oaken), hard CC, and some easy range/multitarget damage.
(I'm assuming PVP, by the way)

Edit: P.s. This is the first time in ages I've seen a thread of "Thank you ZOS" without it being some brand of uninspired sarcasm. It's actually very refreshing. Good on ye, OP!

Tradewind

Kusto wrote: »

"...there is no best ha players as EVERYONE can hold down button and get 80k...."

There are great players who know how to use HA. These players don't just press one button, but use skills effectively. Therefore, they are better than all others who only press one button. Is there any doubt about this?

Kusto wrote: »

But how many players can actually get 80k with 2 bar builds? Not even half the playerbase, not even close. We need to stop comparing the "best" HA vs the best LA players because the latter is only small minority.

What are you saying? Just because many players have poor rotation skills, should HA be nerfed to be worse than players with bad rotation? Are you suggesting that players who are bad at rotation should still be better than those who switch to HA to improve their gameplay? Should HA be made worse than everyone with bad rotation skills?

Luke_Flamesword

But how many players can actually get 80k with 2 bar builds? Not even half the playerbase, not even close

But this the EXACT reason for which ZOS creates Oakensoul and made HA builds viable! That's the problem which splits players too much and HA builds are the solution to this problem. That was the point from beginning to give all players which are unable to get 80k in normal builds, alternative which will raise them higher. ZOS talks a lot about raising the floor from many updates, so this is their goal in balancing game - not preserving old balance. Floor is raised a lot, but ceiling is the same - this is probably most succesfull change in this area.

But I agree that current nerf is just little balance adjustment and won't be end of this builds, so panic is not needed - their are still fine in current PTS. I just hope that this way of playing will survive future updates

Drako_Ei

Veteran player here.

Keep oaken alive. I'm literally soloing veteran hardmode dungeons with one hand, and eating icecream with my other hand.

Tradewind

Drako_Ei wrote: »

Veteran player here.

Keep oaken alive. I'm literally soloing veteran hardmode dungeons with one hand, and eating icecream with my other hand.

It appears that your statement can be interpreted in one of two ways:

If you're making this comment with the intention of trolling, then it may be considered a violation of the community's Code of Conduct.
Or, on the other hand, you're an incredibly skilled player who can use both hands to play with two bars and solo any hard mode with your eyes closed.

Regardless of the interpretation, I do agree with your suggestion to prioritize keeping Oaken alive and HA builds.

Kusto

Tradewind wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

"...there is no best ha players as EVERYONE can hold down button and get 80k...."

There are great players who know how to use HA. These players don't just press one button, but use skills effectively. Therefore, they are better than all others who only press one button. Is there any doubt about this?

Kusto wrote: »

But how many players can actually get 80k with 2 bar builds? Not even half the playerbase, not even close. We need to stop comparing the "best" HA vs the best LA players because the latter is only small minority.

What are you saying? Just because many players have poor rotation skills, should HA be nerfed to be worse than players with bad rotation? Are you suggesting that players who are bad at rotation should still be better than those who switch to HA to improve their gameplay? Should HA be made worse than everyone with bad rotation skills?

No, thats not what I was saying.
HA builds should stay viable but they shouldnt be the ONLY option for majority of players who cant parse 130k with 2 bar builds. And I wouldnt call people who achieve 80k with 2 bar bad, theyre still above average. But oaken HA builds are currently outparsing even 100-110k 2 bar users in content thanks to their insane cleave and ease of use.

Kusto

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

But how many players can actually get 80k with 2 bar builds? Not even half the playerbase, not even close

But this the EXACT reason for which ZOS creates Oakensoul and made HA builds viable! That's the problem which splits players too much and HA builds are the solution to this problem. That was the point from beginning to give all players which are unable to get 80k in normal builds, alternative which will raise them higher. ZOS talks a lot about raising the floor from many updates, so this is their goal in balancing game - not preserving old balance. Floor is raised a lot, but ceiling is the same - this is probably most succesfull change in this area.

But I agree that current nerf is just little balance adjustment and won't be end of this builds, so panic is not needed - their are still fine in current PTS. I just hope that this way of playing will survive future updates

You are right, the floor is raised and the ceiling is the same but the floor is now raised above mid tier (average, majority) players. So the mid tier who used 2 bars before is now forced to swap to HA aswell if they dont wanna get beaten by the previous floor. HA needs to be nerfed some more so it still keeps the floor raised and theyre able to do content but the average player should also stay competitive if they wanna use 2 bar builds. Currently as it is, oaken HA has made everyone the floor except 130k parsers.

Luke_Flamesword

Or we just need more options for 2-bar users like Velothi mythic, but without overnerf

WinterHeart626

I feel the oakensoul builds in a decent spot.
70k base minimum, 100k top end, that’s not too bad. Crying for it to be nerfed harder isn’t fair to those who can’t parse 70-100k+ due to disability/ arthritis/ or other health issues.
I’ve seen the arguements, and you know what, I feel it’s arguments coming from the top tier parse raiders who sold runs. Cos yeah, now an extra 50% of players can do vet content that they had to PAY OTHERS for clears/ titles on.

The other mob that cry’s for nerfs are the players who feel their exclusive “club” of high end content running has been infringed on and it makes all their efforts look like (insert whatever here), well, sure, objectively it does make their efforts look “trivial”, I know that’s not the case though, they worked for it, and got it. That’s effort into understanding and looking at a bar on your screen, if you’re on PC you get an assist that tells you what, when, how.

Don’t say every one can put in all the effort that top parsers have and come out as “elites”, because not everyone can.

Cheers from the guy with the buggered wrist.

ForzaRammer

Raising the floor is an inaccurate statement, oakensoul raised the median, the difference between median and top got smaller.

Bottom tier players are still doing sub 15k dps in vets with their spam 1 skill only build, the difference between floor and median only got bigger