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Bosmer aren't Gnomes, ZOS
Faulgor
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I know this ship has sailed a long time ago, probably, but as I recently made my first Bosmer (yay), I can't help but bring it up again.
Bosmer (females) in ESO are inappropriately small.
Let me explain.
In Arena and Daggerfall, height wasn't really a factor, and over Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim, the relative height of the different races remained mostly the same. Altmer are easily the tallest race, followed by Nords and Orcs (sometimes one surpassing the other), and at the low end we have Bosmer males. Male Argonians, Bretons, Khajiit and Redguards are taller than the females, and male Bosmer are shorter than females.
From Morrowind to Oblivion, Orcs (1.05 to 1.06) and male Redguards (1.02 to 1.03) got a bit taller.
From Oblivion to Skyrim, several changes were made that lowered the variance in height across the races. Argonian males got a bit shorter (1.03 to 1.01), as did Altmer (1.1 to 1.08), Nords (1.06 to 1.03), Orcs (1.06 to 1.045), and male Redguards (1.03 to 1.005). Bosmer males actually gained some height, from 0.9 to 0.98. In the overall ranking, this meant that Orcs were now taller than Nords, but otherwise things remained the same.
One thing though that has always been constant is the height of Bosmer females: 1.0.
They are as standard height as you could expect. They are so normal, they could be a unit of measurement.
They always had the same height as Argonian females, Breton males, Dunmer, Imperials, Khajiit males, and Redguard females.
At 0.95, Breton and Khajiit females are actually smaller than them - and in Skyrim, even Bosmer males are taller than these two!
Only the three tallest races - Altmer, Nord, and Orcs - and Argonian and Redguard males are taller than Bosmer females.
And in Daggerfall, although height wasn't a feature in the game, Bosmer are actually described as "a tall, fair-skinned people known to be extremely agile and quick."
Point being, no matter the details of specific height numbers in one game or another, Bosmer females were always normal in height.
And yet, when I max out my height slider, this is what I look at:
Of course, you could make a smaller Dunmer to have them somewhat level height - but I max out all my characters because ESO is an MMO, which has increased environment scaling to accommodate large numbers of players, and thus the scaling relative to characters always feels a bit off unless you make your char as tall as possible. So while this might seem a tiny (heh) problem to most people, it actually hinders my enjoyment when playing this character.
And I know that there are people who love their smol Elves, and to them I'd like to say two things.
First, you are wrong.
Just kidding, but second, I don't mind. If you want, you can make your character as tiny as you like. Play a child for all I care.
All I'm saying is, I would like to have my Bosmer the height they always did in TES. 's all.
I'm not asking for ZOS to go through the game and adjust every Bosmer's height (although there are several things that could be said about the representation of Bosmer in the game as tiny comic relief characters instead of the fierce people that they are, but I digress), or to change the height of people's characters against their will. I just want to have the max height for Bosmer increased to the lore appropriate amount. Bosmer males should probably max out where females are right now, and females should be where Dunmer or Imperial females are at.
I'd even be enough of a door mat to buy another Appearance Change Token to make it happen.
I can only assume that this was done in the early design of the game to differentiate the races visually, to give the alliances in Cyrodiil more uniqueness and recognizability. But honestly, with all the changes since then, such as Any Race Any Alliance, and the myriad of cosmetics around, that is not a necessary consideration anymore.
Of course, you could say "well, Bethesda made some changes to race heights before, so why is this any different". But overall this feels like another slap in the face of the Tree-Sap people (cough stealth cough), and asking for the option to have what the lore of the franchise has always supported doesn't seem too much.
I have some more thoughts, but this post is large enough as it is for such a tiny people ...
Bosmer (females) in ESO are inappropriately small.
Let me explain.
In Arena and Daggerfall, height wasn't really a factor, and over Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim, the relative height of the different races remained mostly the same. Altmer are easily the tallest race, followed by Nords and Orcs (sometimes one surpassing the other), and at the low end we have Bosmer males. Male Argonians, Bretons, Khajiit and Redguards are taller than the females, and male Bosmer are shorter than females.
From Morrowind to Oblivion, Orcs (1.05 to 1.06) and male Redguards (1.02 to 1.03) got a bit taller.
From Oblivion to Skyrim, several changes were made that lowered the variance in height across the races. Argonian males got a bit shorter (1.03 to 1.01), as did Altmer (1.1 to 1.08), Nords (1.06 to 1.03), Orcs (1.06 to 1.045), and male Redguards (1.03 to 1.005). Bosmer males actually gained some height, from 0.9 to 0.98. In the overall ranking, this meant that Orcs were now taller than Nords, but otherwise things remained the same.
One thing though that has always been constant is the height of Bosmer females: 1.0.
They are as standard height as you could expect. They are so normal, they could be a unit of measurement.
They always had the same height as Argonian females, Breton males, Dunmer, Imperials, Khajiit males, and Redguard females.
At 0.95, Breton and Khajiit females are actually smaller than them - and in Skyrim, even Bosmer males are taller than these two!
Only the three tallest races - Altmer, Nord, and Orcs - and Argonian and Redguard males are taller than Bosmer females.
And in Daggerfall, although height wasn't a feature in the game, Bosmer are actually described as "a tall, fair-skinned people known to be extremely agile and quick."
Point being, no matter the details of specific height numbers in one game or another, Bosmer females were always normal in height.
And yet, when I max out my height slider, this is what I look at:
Of course, you could make a smaller Dunmer to have them somewhat level height - but I max out all my characters because ESO is an MMO, which has increased environment scaling to accommodate large numbers of players, and thus the scaling relative to characters always feels a bit off unless you make your char as tall as possible. So while this might seem a tiny (heh) problem to most people, it actually hinders my enjoyment when playing this character.
And I know that there are people who love their smol Elves, and to them I'd like to say two things.
First, you are wrong.
Just kidding, but second, I don't mind. If you want, you can make your character as tiny as you like. Play a child for all I care.
All I'm saying is, I would like to have my Bosmer the height they always did in TES. 's all.
I'm not asking for ZOS to go through the game and adjust every Bosmer's height (although there are several things that could be said about the representation of Bosmer in the game as tiny comic relief characters instead of the fierce people that they are, but I digress), or to change the height of people's characters against their will. I just want to have the max height for Bosmer increased to the lore appropriate amount. Bosmer males should probably max out where females are right now, and females should be where Dunmer or Imperial females are at.
I'd even be enough of a door mat to buy another Appearance Change Token to make it happen.
I can only assume that this was done in the early design of the game to differentiate the races visually, to give the alliances in Cyrodiil more uniqueness and recognizability. But honestly, with all the changes since then, such as Any Race Any Alliance, and the myriad of cosmetics around, that is not a necessary consideration anymore.
Of course, you could say "well, Bethesda made some changes to race heights before, so why is this any different". But overall this feels like another slap in the face of the Tree-Sap people (cough stealth cough), and asking for the option to have what the lore of the franchise has always supported doesn't seem too much.
I have some more thoughts, but this post is large enough as it is for such a tiny people ...
Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
12
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SeaGtGruff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well, chronologically speaking, ESO predates the rest of the games, doesn't it? Maybe any changes in racial/gender heights from one game to the next could be explained by evolution or (if that's not acceptable in a fantasy game) things like mingling of racial bloodlines over the centuries?I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!9 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SeaGtGruff wrote: »Well, chronologically speaking, ESO predates the rest of the games, doesn't it? Maybe any changes in racial/gender heights from one game to the next could be explained by evolution or (if that's not acceptable in a fantasy game) things like mingling of racial bloodlines over the centuries?
Oh I could come up with plenty of in-universe explanations, e.g. Bosmer men became so infatuated with Queen Ayrenn during the Aldmeri Dominion days that they started the practice to coax their women into a taller shape similar to the way they coax the Green into the shape of their homes. Or the Bosmer in ESO are actually just children after a population surge, and they don't really mature into their full height until they are 80 years old.
But all of that is just post-hoc rationalization to make the lore fit. I'd rather it just fit right away.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.6 -
they taste like gnomesYou've had nature explained to you and you're bored with it, you've had the living body explained to you and you're bored with it, you've had the universe explained to you and you're bored with it, so now you want cheap thrills and, like, plenty of them....
-Johnny11 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭No they aren’t they are humans with some elven ancestry. Gnomes aren’t in the elder scrolls world.1 -
Ashryn✭✭✭✭✭Actually, I enjoy my small size....however I have not ever maxed out my height on the slider. I never knew just how tall female Bosmers were allowed to get! I do agree with you:; it shouldn't be that way. The male Bosmers should be taller then females!
What I do have quarrel with is the fact that so many people equate size with being a child. I'm very short/small in real life, so its done there as well. Size isn't maturity!3 -
Soarora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Honestly, I like the retcon. I know it’s unique to have a race where the men are short and the women are average but it means a lot to me as a very short (little under 5 foot) woman that the range of sliders was shifted down. Makes me feel more represented, as the only other way to represent myself would be like… a Dagi or Dagi-Raht.
Edit: Which means I wouldn’t even be able to get remotely short enough in-game.Edited by Soarora on May 7, 2023 3:47PMPC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore- CP 2000+
- Warden Healer - Arcanist Healer - Warden Brittleden - Stamarc - Sorc Tank - Necro Tank - Templar Tank - Arcanist Tank
- Trials: 9/12 HMs - 3/8 Tris
- Dungeons: 30/30 HMs - 24/24 Tris
- All Veterans completed!
View my builds!
5 -
Soarora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Actually, I enjoy my small size....however I have not ever maxed out my height on the slider. I never knew just how tall female Bosmers were allowed to get! I do agree with you:; it shouldn't be that way. The male Bosmers should be taller then females!
What I do have quarrel with is the fact that so many people equate size with being a child. I'm very short/small in real life, so its done there as well. Size isn't maturity!
The males should not be taller. Male bosmer being shorter than the female bosmer is a bosmer staple. It’s something very unique and cool. And yeah, I have that problem too unfortunately.PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore- CP 2000+
- Warden Healer - Arcanist Healer - Warden Brittleden - Stamarc - Sorc Tank - Necro Tank - Templar Tank - Arcanist Tank
- Trials: 9/12 HMs - 3/8 Tris
- Dungeons: 30/30 HMs - 24/24 Tris
- All Veterans completed!
View my builds!
8 -
Marto✭✭✭✭✭
✭You're quoting the previous TES games as the reason why Bosmer in ESO should be taller, and I think that's a bit silly because Bosmer in all previous TES games were woefully unappreciated, and downright redundant.
Their culture was just a book or dialogue line here and there. And they were treated as basically "elf, but not too elfy"
They had no defining characteristics outside of their skin color. Not even in TES V, the game with the most distinct and refined art direction of the franchise (whether you like its dated "gritty" aesthetic or not, you can't deny it had a clear vision)
And now, they do have defining characteristics! They are noticeably shorter, they have antlers, unique bug-like eyes, even stronger accents than before, and the fact that ESO lets us visit all of Tamriel means we finally see their architecture, armor, and all the creative ways they avoid using plants.
They are much better like this, imo. Be careful not to get too attached to the old lore, it's very often worse than what the new writers come up with.Edited by Marto on May 7, 2023 4:22PM"According to the calculations of the sages of the Cult of the Ancestor Moth, the batam guar is the cutest creature in all Tamriel"14 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You're quoting the previous TES games as the reason why Bosmer in ESO should be taller, and I think that's a bit silly because Bosmer in all previous TES games were woefully unappreciated, and downright redundant.
Their culture was just a book or dialogue line here and there. And they were treated as basically "elf, but not too elfy"
They had no defining characteristics outside of their skin color. Not even in TES V, the game with the most distinct and refined art direction of the franchise (whether you like its dated "gritty" aesthetic or not, you can't deny it had a clear vision)
And now, they do have defining characteristics! They are noticeably shorter, they have antlers, unique bug-like eyes, even stronger accents than before, and the fact that ESO lets us visit all of Tamriel means we finally see their architecture, armor, and all the creative ways they avoid using plants.
They are much better like this, imo.
I disagree. Visually they were already well-defined by Morrowind, with their characteristic black-eyed alien look and sexual dimorphism between smaller males and taller females. Males got a testosterone boost in Skyrim (who didn't), but that's it.
ESO feels like a step back. You can chose black eyes, but most NPCs don't have them, ranging somewhere between quite human and normal Elven looks - if you look closely, you can see star-shaped pupils, tho. The grittier, overall more alien appearance to Mer is also gone again, following more closely in Oblivion's footsteps. And the antlers? Only cosmetic.
As for their culture, it's a mixed bag. Some interesting new additions are there, such as the Spinners, other things didn't make it in, such as walking tree cities. But the disposition they've given them too often feels like a caricature, basically creating a culture of Adoring Fans. Especially with their accents.
It needn't be. But Bosmer also have this chipper personality and accent for some reason, so they are portrayed overall as more childlike. Contrast this with Dwarves in most fantasy settings, which are probably even shorter but also quite serious, deep-voiced people.What I do have quarrel with is the fact that so many people equate size with being a child. I'm very short/small in real life, so its done there as well. Size isn't maturity!Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.3 -
AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭My elf is tiny and has been so throughout her extensive gameplay in Oblivion and Skyrim (heights are easily adjustable via command console) as well as in ESO.
The advantages are that being a smaller target makes her harder to see or hit, allows her to access the uppermost branches of tress that would be unable to support heavier folk, and we all know that Bosmer are BiS for cute.
The drawbacks including having to swim across mud puddles and having to hop up and down or mount her horse to see over small bushes.PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo2 -
RaddlemanNumber7✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Not Gnomes? Sez who?
p.s. I just created this character. When trying to name him I discovered that Jan Jansen already exists on PC EU.
PC EU9 -
Ragnarok0130✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »No they aren’t they are humans with some elven ancestry. Gnomes aren’t in the elder scrolls world.
I believe you are speaking of Bretons who are human/elven hybrids (Direnni elves mixed with Nedic humans). Bosmer are one of those mysteries that people don't really know where they came from as they weren't mentioned in the exodus from Aldermeris like the Altermer, Chimer, Dwemer, Maomer, and Falmer but are definitely Mer. The origins of the Kahjjit and Argonians are also shrouded in mystery with the Khajjits claiming to come from Elves in some sources.5 -
Rebirthment✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »No they aren’t they are humans with some elven ancestry. Gnomes aren’t in the elder scrolls world.
Thought you were talking about Bretons there for second0 -
Soarora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarok0130 wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »No they aren’t they are humans with some elven ancestry. Gnomes aren’t in the elder scrolls world.
I believe you are speaking of Bretons who are human/elven hybrids (Direnni elves mixed with Nedic humans). Bosmer are one of those mysteries that people don't really know where they came from as they weren't mentioned in the exodus from Aldermeris like the Altermer, Chimer, Dwemer, Maomer, and Falmer but are definitely Mer. The origins of the Kahjjit and Argonians are also shrouded in mystery with the Khajjits claiming to come from Elves in some sources.
Yeah, the origin story I know of is that actually Khajiit and Bosmer are related, nothing to do with humans. The story goes that Y'ffre created Bosmer from The Ooze and Azurah created Khajiit from The Ooze. Can't say with confidence that is the true origin but that's the story, and explains why Ohmes look like Bosmer.PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore- CP 2000+
- Warden Healer - Arcanist Healer - Warden Brittleden - Stamarc - Sorc Tank - Necro Tank - Templar Tank - Arcanist Tank
- Trials: 9/12 HMs - 3/8 Tris
- Dungeons: 30/30 HMs - 24/24 Tris
- All Veterans completed!
View my builds!
1 -
Rebirthment✭✭✭✭Honestly thought Bosmer, at least the females, were more like an avg height similar to male bretons, maybe slightly shorter. While the males were literally the smallest height out of all playable races and sexes.2
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isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭Rebirthment wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »No they aren’t they are humans with some elven ancestry. Gnomes aren’t in the elder scrolls world.
Thought you were talking about Bretons there for second
You are right for some reason I thought it said Breton. I’ve been running on low sleep. Yes I meant Breton but I see this is about wood elves.
In that case .. yeah they are a little short for being mer, but I don’t see a problem with it.
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shadyjane62✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I am Bosmer size real life and prefer to run them all the time. I made the classic short person mistake as my main is 8 ft tall Altmer. However I play her most as I am trying to max out cps and my rank in pvp. Only two stars to go.
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AzuraFan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sometimes my Bosmer characters can't figure out how to open a door because they have to look way up to get the prompt. Once it was so bad that I thought the quest was bugged. Having said that, I don't mind the heights as they are.0 -
NotaDaedraWorshipper✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I thought this was going to be about ZOS treating bosmer as either something that doesn't exist or comic relief.
I like their slightly shorter height. It adds some more height variety of the races.[Lie] Of course! I don't even worship Daedra!7 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
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And isn't it great that TES allows for such flexibility for our characters?AcadianPaladin wrote: »My elf is tiny and has been so throughout her extensive gameplay in Oblivion and Skyrim (heights are easily adjustable via command console) as well as in ESO.
The advantages are that being a smaller target makes her harder to see or hit, allows her to access the uppermost branches of tress that would be unable to support heavier folk, and we all know that Bosmer are BiS for cute.
The drawbacks including having to swim across mud puddles and having to hop up and down or mount her horse to see over small bushes.
It seems within the spirit of the franchise that I should get to make my Bosmer half a head taller, then, especially given that this used to be their height for over a decade.
Well, I don't like it.NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »I thought this was going to be about ZOS treating bosmer as either something that doesn't exist or comic relief.
I like their slightly shorter height. It adds some more height variety of the races.
I also don't think interracial variety should be a goal in itself here. You would expect enough variety within a race to at least allow more options for players, especially in TES. Otherwise we could also argue for more weight 'variety', designate Imperials as being the overweight ones, and adjust the sliders such that you can't make a slim Imperial anymore. Would people be happy with such a change?
I mean, some are still asking for dark-haired Altmer.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.0 -
thorwyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭They are.
And they are laying eggs.And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
And if there is no room upon the hill
And if your head explodes with dark forebodings too
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon2 -
Soarora✭✭✭✭✭
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Well, I don't like it.NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »I thought this was going to be about ZOS treating bosmer as either something that doesn't exist or comic relief.
I like their slightly shorter height. It adds some more height variety of the races.
I also don't think interracial variety should be a goal in itself here. You would expect enough variety within a race to at least allow more options for players, especially in TES. Otherwise we could also argue for more weight 'variety', designate Imperials as being the overweight ones, and adjust the sliders such that you can't make a slim Imperial anymore. Would people be happy with such a change?
I mean, some are still asking for dark-haired Altmer.
While more variety within a race is great, at the end of the day if Bosmer women were kept to be average height… we would have zero (0) options for short women to represent themselves in a way that makes them feel average, without turning themselves into a cat only seen within Elsweyr. Tall people can represent themselves as an average, obviously average people can, short men can, short women couldn’t. Shifting Bosmer sliders down so that the women are short too means that there’s a RACE of short women that can be identified with.
When I was newer to playing and everywhere felt fresh, Grahtwood felt like home and it was an amazing experience to be surrounded by so many NPCs that are short.PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore- CP 2000+
- Warden Healer - Arcanist Healer - Warden Brittleden - Stamarc - Sorc Tank - Necro Tank - Templar Tank - Arcanist Tank
- Trials: 9/12 HMs - 3/8 Tris
- Dungeons: 30/30 HMs - 24/24 Tris
- All Veterans completed!
View my builds!
1 -
Rebirthment✭✭✭✭
Well, I don't like it.NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »I thought this was going to be about ZOS treating bosmer as either something that doesn't exist or comic relief.
I like their slightly shorter height. It adds some more height variety of the races.
I also don't think interracial variety should be a goal in itself here. You would expect enough variety within a race to at least allow more options for players, especially in TES. Otherwise we could also argue for more weight 'variety', designate Imperials as being the overweight ones, and adjust the sliders such that you can't make a slim Imperial anymore. Would people be happy with such a change?
I mean, some are still asking for dark-haired Altmer.
While more variety within a race is great, at the end of the day if Bosmer women were kept to be average height… we would have zero (0) options for short women to represent themselves in a way that makes them feel average, without turning themselves into a cat only seen within Elsweyr. Tall people can represent themselves as an average, obviously average people can, short men can, short women couldn’t. Shifting Bosmer sliders down so that the women are short too means that there’s a RACE of short women that can be identified with.
When I was newer to playing and everywhere felt fresh, Grahtwood felt like home and it was an amazing experience to be surrounded by so many NPCs that are short.
I hear ya though Breton females tend to be pretty short as well2 -
FeedbackOnly✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Game wass design was probably different back then. It's just a relic from there.1
