Unpopular opinion : Remove attribute system entirely at CP160

richo262

The attribute system exists entirely to give the impression that character development is richer than it actually is.

With the addition of the armory ZOS clearly wants players to experiment with new builds and customize their characters further. The attribute system hinders this.

If the attribute system was removed and instead Enchants were buffed to bring the total resources up to where they were prior it would render the attribute system entirely obsolete and allow players to change their character build just with a gear swap. It would also make enchanting more meaningful.

This would make swapping to tank on a stam DPS nothing more than a food, mundus, CP perk and gear change and put more tanks in the field. Something that may be needed with a potential trial finder coming.

New players would likely be hindered by this as one wrong piece with a wrong enchant will severely effect their build. So have it so that the attribute system is relied on until CP160, At CP160 the gear will drop with the enchants majorly buffed (infused will need attention to give a similar result to what it is today, balance is required clearly) but the attribute system is entirely removed at CP160. Built customization now is focused on the CP system, which is much more versatile and changeable.

Example a stam DPS with all Stam enchants and 64 points in stam should equate to the same Stam pool as no attribute system but all Stam enchants.

It is also worth noting that all gear drops with Kuta grade enchants anyway. All players that wish to change an enchant at end game use Kuta already so nothing onerous is added by doing this for players above CP160.

Tandor

No thanks. There have been enough game-making/breaking changes without having any more.

How would you deal with alts? Apply this change at level 1 for an alt with 160+ account-wide CPs, make CPs character-specific, or block characters applying CPs below level 50?

valenwood_vegan

Seems like a solution in search of problem to me. No offense, there's nothing wrong with suggesting ideas - I just don't really see the point - there are a lot of more compelling issues with the game that could use attention.

SpacemanSpiff1

i don't see the benefit. or the problem you're trying to solve.

Shepoffire

It's like 3k to respec....

Solariken

Interesting take... I do agree the attribute system is arbitrary and a weird hoop to have to jump through to change builds but this would be pretty low on the overall list of issues that need attention.

fizl101

It wouldn't just be a gear swap though, skills and morphs, enchants on gear if using the same gear in different ways and so on. I think TBH its part of what the armory was assisting with, and quicker than manually making all of the adjustments.

i understand the desire to get more people doing other roles, but I am not 100% sure that even if this was implemented you would suddenly get more tanks out there

richo262

Tandor wrote: »

No thanks. There have been enough game-making/breaking changes without having any more.

How would you deal with alts? Apply this change at level 1 for an alt with 160+ account-wide CPs, make CPs character-specific, or block characters applying CPs below level 50?

It would only apply when the character you are playing on drops CP160 gear.

So an alt on level 49 regardless of CP160 will have attributes, at level 50 however, the moment the characters loot table eligible to have CP160 gear, the attribute system gets wiped and all items that drop going forward are CP160 with an enchant buff. It could even be the moment they put on a CP160 item (or several).

It is more associated with the item than the character itself.

richo262

Shepoffire wrote: »

It's like 3k to respec....

It is not about the cost, it is about the obstacle. It wouldn't phase me if its 10k, or 100k.

valenwood_vegan

But what if I say... wanted to respec my attributes but *not* change my gear? I'd have to make or buy new enchants every time... this seems like more of an obstacle than a cheap respec at a shrine to me.

richo262

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

But what if I say... wanted to respec my attributes but *not* change my gear? I'd have to make or buy new enchants every time... this seems like more of an obstacle than a cheap respec at a shrine to me.

For the rare instance you might want to do that, have items remember the enchants you have added to them, and can change. IE, if an item has Health Enchant by default, and you add Stamina Enchant, an arrow appears next to the enchant allowing you to cycle between Stamina or Health or whatever else you have added to the item.

richo262

I'd also like to see something similar to that added to transmuted items, allowing you to change trait based on what you have researched. Being able to cycle between added enchants and researched traits on transmuted items would be great.

It is probably a limiting factor on people golding transmuted items (armor specifically, most people gold their weapons), if they get the trait wrong or a patch nerfs a trait, they can just decon and go again, but if you could skip the decon part and a trait can be changed to whatever you have researched, no reason not to gold. The only hesitation would be if the set itself gets nerfed or a better one comes along.

Tandor

richo262 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

No thanks. There have been enough game-making/breaking changes without having any more.

How would you deal with alts? Apply this change at level 1 for an alt with 160+ account-wide CPs, make CPs character-specific, or block characters applying CPs below level 50?

It would only apply when the character you are playing on drops CP160 gear.

So an alt on level 49 regardless of CP160 will have attributes, at level 50 however, the moment the characters loot table eligible to have CP160 gear, the attribute system gets wiped and all items that drop going forward are CP160 with an enchant buff. It could even be the moment they put on a CP160 item (or several).

It is more associated with the item than the character itself.

Far too complicated coding-wise. It would result in a duplicate CP/enchant system at a time when ZOS are having to cut game systems to free up database space for new content.

Besides, I like attributes, they're a key part of any role-playing game.

FeedbackOnly

No thank you

Kisakee

Meh, not interested.

SerafinaWaterstar

Fine with how things are, thanks.

And would it not make the Enchanting system ridiculously complex?

zaria

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

But what if I say... wanted to respec my attributes but *not* change my gear? I'd have to make or buy new enchants every time... this seems like more of an obstacle than a cheap respec at a shrine to me.

This, also for serious tanks they go 3 stat runes and rather change their stats as they are expensive.

[Snip] if ZoS see this they might removes attributes [Snip].
And you simply get an hard nerf for your effort.
In short asking ZoS for nerfs or things who can be used as nerfs is like asking for close air support from a deathstar.


[Edited for bait]

Dr_Con

the attribute point system helps bridge some gaps in character building that armor rune enchantment creates

richo262

zaria wrote: »

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

But what if I say... wanted to respec my attributes but *not* change my gear? I'd have to make or buy new enchants every time... this seems like more of an obstacle than a cheap respec at a shrine to me.

This, also for serious tanks they go 3 stat runes and rather change their stats as they are expensive.

[Snip], if ZoS see this they might removes attributes [Snip].
And you simply get an hard nerf for your effort.
In short asking ZoS for nerfs or things who can be used as nerfs is like asking for close air support from a deathstar.

Lets hope my fellow [Snip] ZOS reads this, because they've done quite well so far.

Things I've advocated for in the past.

Transmuting - Became a reality
Collectible items - Became a reality (I called it an armory system)
Make undaunted keys a currency - Became a reality
Account wide achieves - Became a reality
Account wide lore books - Pending
Account wide green recipes - Pending (so alts can actually craft crap tier)
Make the green CP tree entirely passive and scrap the active slots - Pending
Replace attunable stations with attunable crystals that players can use at an overworld crafting station to learn it, their home stations can now craft it ending the sea of stations - Pending
All mats should have 5 tiers like Jewelry crafting - Pending
Have standard crafting stations and transmute station an unlock in the collectibles rather than an item - Pending (given the new armory station came like this I can tell they are giving some consideration) - Pending
Adding enchants to items allows you to swap back at any time - <-- You are here
Transmuted items can have their trait changed easily - <--- You are here
Scrap the attribute system and just buff enchants post CP160 - <--- You are here

[Edited quote and for removed content]

valenwood_vegan

Impressive, but I've got that beat - after Skyrim, I said I'd love to see another Elder Scrolls Game. And here we are!

mocap

It's complicated there. Armor enchants, infused trait, jewelry enchants, hakeijo.
It all has to be balanced very carefully.

Though it's not a bad idea in general. Can save 3k gold at least )

kargen27

"Account wide achieves - Became a reality"

an absolute travesty that wrecked how many of us played the game.

Transmuting made finding the desired trait on your gear much easier. No need to go any farther with that. Most (maybe all) of your pending I hope never makes it to the game. They are just shortcuts for rewards/perks without playing the associated content. That isn't good for long term health of the game.

The Armory allows you to save attributes with the build. No need to remove attributes as there is something in game that allows you to switch attributes when you switch the rest of the build. It would be a one time purchase per build at the shrine to make the initial switch.

Kusto

Armory saves attributes also. Just get another slot and problem solved. I play all 3 roles on 1 character.

bmnoble

Got no issue with how things are now, not seeing this problem that needs fixing.

All I see OP idea doing is sending Kuta prices up.

It costs about 3K to re spec your attributes or you can switch your set up in the armoury, daily log in rewards also drop the attribute re spec scrolls on occasion.

richo262

kargen27 wrote: »

"Account wide achieves - Became a reality"

an absolute travesty that wrecked how many of us played the game.

Transmuting made finding the desired trait on your gear much easier. No need to go any farther with that. Most (maybe all) of your pending I hope never makes it to the game. They are just shortcuts for rewards/perks without playing the associated content. That isn't good for long term health of the game.

The Armory allows you to save attributes with the build. No need to remove attributes as there is something in game that allows you to switch attributes when you switch the rest of the build. It would be a one time purchase per build at the shrine to make the initial switch.

Just shortcuts?

How is simply replacing the present attunement system with functionally the same thing, requires the same amount of writ vouchers, but allows you to condense all your existing attuned crafting stations into 1 of each to cut down on house limit a shortcut?

How is having a level 1 character able to cook 2 minute noodles a shortcut? A recipe that by the time its found is obsolete and is likely going to be an alt that can craft level cap free food anyway. If green recipes were worth something I may have a different take on it.

How is having a 5 tier mat structure (as it was before, and how it is today with jewelry) a shortcut but not just cleaning up the loot table?

How is having green perks active at all times a shortcut when most on PC just use an addon that auto slots the one required? It was like the first thing the addon community did.

How is properly utilising the collectible tab with the more functional furniture in the game a shortcut?

Nord_Raseri

I greatly prefer how it is now. Thank you for sharing though.

Carcamongus

I don't see the point. As people already said, the armory allows you to have different attribute setups that can be applied to the same toon. Switching builds in the armory is far easier than reenchanting, switching mundus, cp and other things manually. Imagine the how badly this idea could be implemented and the amount of bugs and exploits that could result from changing a system that already works well and isn't causing any problems.

danno8

If you wanted to replace the +64 attribute points why not just increase the power slice of resource lines on gear/enchants an appropriate amount? Seems simpler.

kargen27

richo262 wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

"Account wide achieves - Became a reality"

an absolute travesty that wrecked how many of us played the game.

Transmuting made finding the desired trait on your gear much easier. No need to go any farther with that. Most (maybe all) of your pending I hope never makes it to the game. They are just shortcuts for rewards/perks without playing the associated content. That isn't good for long term health of the game.

The Armory allows you to save attributes with the build. No need to remove attributes as there is something in game that allows you to switch attributes when you switch the rest of the build. It would be a one time purchase per build at the shrine to make the initial switch.

Just shortcuts?

How is simply replacing the present attunement system with functionally the same thing, requires the same amount of writ vouchers, but allows you to condense all your existing attuned crafting stations into 1 of each to cut down on house limit a shortcut?

How is having a level 1 character able to cook 2 minute noodles a shortcut? A recipe that by the time its found is obsolete and is likely going to be an alt that can craft level cap free food anyway. If green recipes were worth something I may have a different take on it.

How is having a 5 tier mat structure (as it was before, and how it is today with jewelry) a shortcut but not just cleaning up the loot table?

How is having green perks active at all times a shortcut when most on PC just use an addon that auto slots the one required? It was like the first thing the addon community did.

How is properly utilising the collectible tab with the more functional furniture in the game a shortcut?

Attunement isn't a shortcut depending on how implemented. That is why I said most.

Recipes account wide means only one character need to go to the trouble of getting the recipe. Any other character getting the recipe just because they share an account is that character getting something for nothing. That is a shortcut.

The materials for crafting advances as the character advances. Sure many players skip some levels by assigning multiple points but farming material at each level is part of the game. And yeah I get the irony of my statement given characters share a crafting bag.
The green tree idea is fringe shortcut. You want all the perks of the green tree at all times. Takes away the player having to make a choice for the character. Basically a shortcut to getting more for less.

The collectables allows one item in multiple instances. Instead of having to create/purchase a separate item for each home you get to place one item multiple times. A shortcut. Especially as the crafting stations work now. When the change comes around so we get to replace a few hundred stations with four maybe the collectable makes some sense.

I think it fair that you know my perspective on the game when you read my opinions. I think the characters should be kept as separate as possible. I go so far as thinking CP should be character bound and not account wide. I understand why it isn't and accept that decision. Doesn't mean I want more things tied to account wide instead of individual character.

Before account wide achievements I wouldn't let a character use achievement furniture for their homes if that character hadn't earned the achievement. Now I can't track that so my characters really don't have their own homes any longer. Account side changed how I played the game drastically and I don't want more account wide stuff. I honestly believe it takes away from the games long term health by removing replay ability.

TybaltKaine

The only things that should be account wide are things you spend actual money on. That's it, full stop.

As far as this suggestion goes, it's a solution looking for a problem, as others have said. The current system is fine, allows plenty of flexibility and can easily be navigated by allocating one of your two free armory slots to a blank build.

Wanting folks to have to make an entirely new set of enchants to try out a new build is ridiculous.

If I want to play my main as NB tank instead of a NB healer, I just go to the Armory and select my Tank slot. Done.

zaria

richo262 wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

But what if I say... wanted to respec my attributes but *not* change my gear? I'd have to make or buy new enchants every time... this seems like more of an obstacle than a cheap respec at a shrine to me.

This, also for serious tanks they go 3 stat runes and rather change their stats as they are expensive.

[Snip], if ZoS see this they might removes attributes [Snip].
And you simply get an hard nerf for your effort.
In short asking ZoS for nerfs or things who can be used as nerfs is like asking for close air support from a deathstar.

Lets hope my fellow [Snip] ZOS reads this, because they've done quite well so far.

Things I've advocated for in the past.

Transmuting - Became a reality
Collectible items - Became a reality (I called it an armory system)
Make undaunted keys a currency - Became a reality
Account wide achieves - Became a reality
Account wide lore books - Pending
Account wide green recipes - Pending (so alts can actually craft crap tier)
Make the green CP tree entirely passive and scrap the active slots - Pending
Replace attunable stations with attunable crystals that players can use at an overworld crafting station to learn it, their home stations can now craft it ending the sea of stations - Pending
All mats should have 5 tiers like Jewelry crafting - Pending
Have standard crafting stations and transmute station an unlock in the collectibles rather than an item - Pending (given the new armory station came like this I can tell they are giving some consideration) - Pending
Adding enchants to items allows you to swap back at any time - <-- You are here
Transmuted items can have their trait changed easily - <--- You are here
Scrap the attribute system and just buff enchants post CP160 - <--- You are here
[Edited quote and for removed content]

Collectible items see this more like the stickerbook, armorer was more to switch build easy.
PC has had it for years as in before the stickerbook but only slotted skills and gear.
Account wide achieves- I like it but many hated it.

Else I see a lot of pending as in very unlikely to that is stupid to be implemented.
Has it been any rumors any of the pending stuff will get implemented someday.
From
Account wide green recipes - Pending (so alts can actually craft crap tier): why, who is asking for this, they cost 100 gold.
to
Account wide lore books, or auto complete mage guild skills who they sell for money. Yes that is likely.

And stuff who probably not go as you planned.
Make the green CP tree entirely passive and scrap the active slots.
Do you expect them to not remove or serious nerfs the slotable nodes? Expect Plentiful Harvest to drop down to 10% for getting double drop. Meticulous Disassembly might also get an nerf.
In short it was an overall buff with some serious buff for some activities like stealing and fishing.

Scrap the attribute system and just buff enchants post CP160. Again hard to balance and more expensive to swap gold enchants than move attributes around and gold enchants will become more expensive.
+ Adding enchants to items allows you to swap back at any time: an secondary system to support the first one as it did not work.

Smart ones.
Transmuted items can have their trait changed easily, agree its should be 25 crystals.

Have standard crafting stations and transmute station an unlock in the collectibles rather than an item - Pending (given the new armory station came like this I can tell they are giving some consideration) - Now this makes some sense.

Replace attunable stations with attunable crystals that players can use at an overworld crafting station to learn it, their home stations can now craft it ending the sea of stations, something like this is coming, so far its looks like you can absorb attunable stations but I think you can just upgrade down the line.