The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Why is the Imperial City still a PvP zone? Why was it ever?
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lord_Archaic wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Lord_Archaic wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Why is IC still a PVP zone?
A. Because ZOS generally isn't in the business of taking away gameplay from players, and yes, giving players an easy PVE-only version of the zone would take away gameplay. Tell me that PVP players wouldn't go to the easier version to get skyshards, etc.......
If they did make a PvE only instance of the City/Sewer there would not be any gameplay lost as there is PvP elsewhere in the game. And I said in an earlier post that of course everyone would abandon the PvP instance for a PvE instance of the city.
When you have a choice of being forced into PvP when there is another option, whenever possible the majority will choose not PvP, because when you just want to play the game.
And to the PvE content itself in the sewers, I have no idea what the center area in the sewers even looks like, I can only guess from what the loading screen looks like. I have never been able to make it that far without running into groups of PKers If you want to compromise, make the sewers PvE and the City Proper PvP. The PvE-ers get to do sewers, and the PvPers get to participate in little Cyro.
Here's an idea for PvPing in the City/ Sewers:
To initiate PvP in the City, an alliance needs to own the flags of all 6 districts. Now the players that attack the flags allow for retaliatory defenders. There may have to be cooldown times or a limit for PvE-ers back into the city, or make it like Cyro Proper where each flag needs to be flipped, but when that happens, thats where the cooldown timer starts.
Now for the Sewers: First off, the central area is a neutral zone(non-PvP). But each triad of the sewer is where the danger is. The alliance that owns a specific wing are able to start the PvP encounter; meaning if you're EP, you'll be safe in your section of the sewer from attacks from other alliances, but when you venture into DC/AD territory, you can be attacked from the people in that zone. To promote risk/reward for this, you get stunted telvar in your safe zones and the central neutral zone, but you gain an increased amount of telvar in PvP danger zones. Same with the City Proper, stunted when PvP isn't active but increased when it is.
For telvar loss, in PvP, it is increases to total lost on death, but the killing player/s gain 25%. Death to PvE monsters is 75% loss.
Have you considered that everyone abandoning the PvP IC for the PVE version is in fact a loss of gameplay for the people
Yeah...I'm gonna say that's a bad deal. How on earth do you think that's a fair suggestion for PVPers?
See, that statement of yours is equal proportionally applied to the PvE content of the city. Having forced PvP is a loss of gameplay for those who want to PvE But not PvP. It's just as bad a deal for casual players that want to explor the city or it's sewers, but are unable to due to violent players. Why is it fair to PvE-ers to have explicit PvE content and be unallowed to complete it?
You've misunderstood Imperial City completely if you think any part of it is PVE content, so this is a false dichotomy.
From the very beginning, plastered over every promotional material ZOS wrote, it's very clearly a mixed PvP/PvE zone. It still is, which is why it's very clearly included in Whitestrake's Mayhem.
Sources for your perusal:"The dangers of Imperial City and the Sewers below are best suited for small groups of adventurers, but highly skilled warriors have been known to strike out on their own. While exploring and fighting your way through the Imperial City, be prepared to face not only Molag Bal's forces, but also enemy players from the opposing alliances. Rewards that are unmatched in power await those who are brave enough to enter the Imperial City and claim them. Fight Molag Bal's personal guard, the elite Xivkyn, and other invaders from Coldharbour to win Tel Var Stones, the currency used to trade for mighty Veteran Rank 16 armor sets. But be on your guard—enemy Alliance members lurk around every corner throughout the Imperial Districts and Sewers. Should you fall to an enemy player, they can claim your hard-earned Tel Var Stones in their own quest for glory."
-Imperial City Launch Details, https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25357“Since Tel Var Stones are so sought after and valuable, there is also a chance that you could lose yours. If a monster or enemy player within the Imperial City manages to kill your character, you will lose 50% of the Tel Var Stones you were carrying—and the enemy player will get all of them (split among anyone who helped to subdue you.) You will be able to see the amount of stones you lost in your death recap window. You can't lose Tel Var Stones outside the Imperial City (Districts and Sewers.)
“In order to prevent high loses, you can deposit your Tel Var Stones in your personal bank; any banker in Tamriel is more than happy to accept them. All the Tel Var Stones in your bank are safe and can't be lost if your player character dies in the Imperial City. Of course, after you deposited your stones and carry no more on you, your multiplier will reset, too.
“For those who want to avoid any risk, we've added quests, including repeatable ones, in the Imperial City that will reward you with a Tel Var Stone box. Unlike with Tel Var Stones you get by killing monsters and enemy-alliance player characters, you won't lose these boxes if your character is slain. You can take these boxes to your home base, open them in safety, and deposit all the Tel Var Stones inside straight into your bank. Doing so will prevent these stones from increasing your multiplier, but it keeps them safe. Or you just open them right where you got them … deciding if the risk is worth it is up to you!’
Source: Imperial City Tel Var Guide https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/guides/imperialcitytelvar
This is a common misconception that PVErs somehow "own" skyshards and quests just because the rest of the game has PVE-only zones.
That's not true in the mixed PVE/PVP zones like Cyrodiil and Imperial City where the Devs intended for you to quest and skyshard hunt in the middle of fighting with enemy players...as you can see in their own words above. Or, you know, you could review Whitestrake's Mayhem, which explicitly talks about fighting enemy players while you do the quests that award you tickets? Source: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/62567
That perception of PVE entitlement to the reward of a mixed PVP/PVE zone is incredibly tiresome. And as someone who initially hated PVP and did the Imperial City quest on my PVE Stam sorc, I have a lot of sympathy for PVEers who are scared. But being scared or failing doesn't entitle anyone to the rewards of Imperial City (any more than it would entitle players to the rewards of Vet Trials they can't or won't do.) You gotta get over the fear and get good enough to get 'er done, which IME isn't actually all that hard. That's one of the reasons why I write a guide for the Mayhem event that's geared towards players who've trying out PVP for the first time.9 -
Lord_Archaic✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Lord_Archaic wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Lord_Archaic wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Why is IC still a PVP zone?
A. Because ZOS generally isn't in the business of taking away gameplay from players, and yes, giving players an easy PVE-only version of the zone would take away gameplay. Tell me that PVP players wouldn't go to the easier version to get skyshards, etc.......
If they did make a PvE only instance of the City/Sewer there would not be any gameplay lost as there is PvP elsewhere in the game. And I said in an earlier post that of course everyone would abandon the PvP instance for a PvE instance of the city.
When you have a choice of being forced into PvP when there is another option, whenever possible the majority will choose not PvP, because when you just want to play the game.
And to the PvE content itself in the sewers, I have no idea what the center area in the sewers even looks like, I can only guess from what the loading screen looks like. I have never been able to make it that far without running into groups of PKers If you want to compromise, make the sewers PvE and the City Proper PvP. The PvE-ers get to do sewers, and the PvPers get to participate in little Cyro.
Here's an idea for PvPing in the City/ Sewers:
To initiate PvP in the City, an alliance needs to own the flags of all 6 districts. Now the players that attack the flags allow for retaliatory defenders. There may have to be cooldown times or a limit for PvE-ers back into the city, or make it like Cyro Proper where each flag needs to be flipped, but when that happens, thats where the cooldown timer starts.
Now for the Sewers: First off, the central area is a neutral zone(non-PvP). But each triad of the sewer is where the danger is. The alliance that owns a specific wing are able to start the PvP encounter; meaning if you're EP, you'll be safe in your section of the sewer from attacks from other alliances, but when you venture into DC/AD territory, you can be attacked from the people in that zone. To promote risk/reward for this, you get stunted telvar in your safe zones and the central neutral zone, but you gain an increased amount of telvar in PvP danger zones. Same with the City Proper, stunted when PvP isn't active but increased when it is.
For telvar loss, in PvP, it is increases to total lost on death, but the killing player/s gain 25%. Death to PvE monsters is 75% loss.
Have you considered that everyone abandoning the PvP IC for the PVE version is in fact a loss of gameplay for the people
Yeah...I'm gonna say that's a bad deal. How on earth do you think that's a fair suggestion for PVPers?
See, that statement of yours is equal proportionally applied to the PvE content of the city. Having forced PvP is a loss of gameplay for those who want to PvE But not PvP. It's just as bad a deal for casual players that want to explor the city or it's sewers, but are unable to due to violent players. Why is it fair to PvE-ers to have explicit PvE content and be unallowed to complete it?
You've misunderstood Imperial City completely if you think any part of it is PVE content, so this is a false dichotomy.
From the very beginning, plastered over every promotional material ZOS wrote, it's very clearly a mixed PvP/PvE zone. It still is, which is why it's very clearly included in Whitestrake's Mayhem.
Sources for your perusal:"The dangers of Imperial City and the Sewers below are best suited for small groups of adventurers, but highly skilled warriors have been known to strike out on their own. While exploring and fighting your way through the Imperial City, be prepared to face not only Molag Bal's forces, but also enemy players from the opposing alliances. Rewards that are unmatched in power await those who are brave enough to enter the Imperial City and claim them. Fight Molag Bal's personal guard, the elite Xivkyn, and other invaders from Coldharbour to win Tel Var Stones, the currency used to trade for mighty Veteran Rank 16 armor sets. But be on your guard—enemy Alliance members lurk around every corner throughout the Imperial Districts and Sewers. Should you fall to an enemy player, they can claim your hard-earned Tel Var Stones in their own quest for glory."
-Imperial City Launch Details, https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25357“Since Tel Var Stones are so sought after and valuable, there is also a chance that you could lose yours. If a monster or enemy player within the Imperial City manages to kill your character, you will lose 50% of the Tel Var Stones you were carrying—and the enemy player will get all of them (split among anyone who helped to subdue you.) You will be able to see the amount of stones you lost in your death recap window. You can't lose Tel Var Stones outside the Imperial City (Districts and Sewers.)
“In order to prevent high loses, you can deposit your Tel Var Stones in your personal bank; any banker in Tamriel is more than happy to accept them. All the Tel Var Stones in your bank are safe and can't be lost if your player character dies in the Imperial City. Of course, after you deposited your stones and carry no more on you, your multiplier will reset, too.
“For those who want to avoid any risk, we've added quests, including repeatable ones, in the Imperial City that will reward you with a Tel Var Stone box. Unlike with Tel Var Stones you get by killing monsters and enemy-alliance player characters, you won't lose these boxes if your character is slain. You can take these boxes to your home base, open them in safety, and deposit all the Tel Var Stones inside straight into your bank. Doing so will prevent these stones from increasing your multiplier, but it keeps them safe. Or you just open them right where you got them … deciding if the risk is worth it is up to you!’
Source: Imperial City Tel Var Guide https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/guides/imperialcitytelvar
This is a common misconception that PVErs somehow "own" skyshards and quests just because the rest of the game has PVE-only zones.
That's not true in the mixed PVE/PVP zones like Cyrodiil and Imperial City where the Devs intended for you to quest and skyshard hunt in the middle of fighting with enemy players...as you can see in their own words above. Or, you know, you could review Whitestrake's Mayhem, which explicitly talks about fighting enemy players while you do the quests that award you tickets? Source: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/62567
That perception of PVE entitlement to the reward of a mixed PVP/PVE zone is incredibly tiresome. And as someone who initially hated PVP and did the Imperial City quest on my PVE Stam sorc, I have a lot of sympathy for PVEers who are scared. But being scared or failing doesn't entitle anyone to the rewards of Imperial City (any more than it would entitle players to the rewards of Vet Trials they can't or won't do.) You gotta get over the fear and get good enough to get 'er done, which IME isn't actually all that hard. That's one of the reasons why I write a guide for the Mayhem event that's geared towards players who've trying out PVP for the first time.
[snip] In your own words, there is PvE in a PvP zone. But because this is the case, it skews heavily to one side to the point where pve becomes impossible when there is any hint of AvA interaction. And during whitestrake, everyone is running in the zerg killing zone bosses, ignoring each other to get boxes.
Again to reiterate the point that hasn't changed, when you mix PvE with PvP, it just devolves into PvP. Forcing people into this tells them oh, this place is worthless if I'm just going to get farmed for kills over and over. That's what people do in the City and Sewers, they lie in wait for people outside the spawn points after they capture the flags. And if you try capturing a flag, somehow and quite miraculously I might add, 10+ people that own it materializes like Naruto Shadow Clones to kill you. If you're killing a zone boss what do other people do? Attack the zone boss with you? Maybe if they're the same alliance as you, but if not? Nope they go after you. And if you roll up on another alliance group killing the boss and you help kill it, well good lucl trying to get away.
Because yeah, one player is going to be able to take on 5 people.....more often the case the only ones that can do that are people that do nothing other than PvP 16 hours a day. But your average player, no.
This closes off entire zones to people, because one more time, forcing PvP to occur in PvE encounters, regardless of what the Devs originally designed it as, results in the players that are just trying to have fun in the zone to learn 'Oh, this zone isn't fun, if people are just going to attack me for nothing, Then I shouldn't be here.'
You can not mix PvE and PvP, because it just lets Pkers and Griefers cart blanche, those thay enjoy preying on the weak are the types of PvPers in the city.
To return to an ealier suggestion in which nothing is lost for your sense of PvP, make the city Proper the area in which players PvP, and the Sewers the Place where those that want to can PvE in peace. Nothing is lost here in your words. There's still an area in which PvP occurs, and there's a place where PvE occurs.Edited by Lord_Archaic on April 13, 2023 4:55AM4 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lord_Archaic wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Lord_Archaic wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Lord_Archaic wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Why is IC still a PVP zone?
A. Because ZOS generally isn't in the business of taking away gameplay from players, and yes, giving players an easy PVE-only version of the zone would take away gameplay. Tell me that PVP players wouldn't go to the easier version to get skyshards, etc.......
If they did make a PvE only instance of the City/Sewer there would not be any gameplay lost as there is PvP elsewhere in the game. And I said in an earlier post that of course everyone would abandon the PvP instance for a PvE instance of the city.
When you have a choice of being forced into PvP when there is another option, whenever possible the majority will choose not PvP, because when you just want to play the game.
And to the PvE content itself in the sewers, I have no idea what the center area in the sewers even looks like, I can only guess from what the loading screen looks like. I have never been able to make it that far without running into groups of PKers If you want to compromise, make the sewers PvE and the City Proper PvP. The PvE-ers get to do sewers, and the PvPers get to participate in little Cyro.
Here's an idea for PvPing in the City/ Sewers:
To initiate PvP in the City, an alliance needs to own the flags of all 6 districts. Now the players that attack the flags allow for retaliatory defenders. There may have to be cooldown times or a limit for PvE-ers back into the city, or make it like Cyro Proper where each flag needs to be flipped, but when that happens, thats where the cooldown timer starts.
Now for the Sewers: First off, the central area is a neutral zone(non-PvP). But each triad of the sewer is where the danger is. The alliance that owns a specific wing are able to start the PvP encounter; meaning if you're EP, you'll be safe in your section of the sewer from attacks from other alliances, but when you venture into DC/AD territory, you can be attacked from the people in that zone. To promote risk/reward for this, you get stunted telvar in your safe zones and the central neutral zone, but you gain an increased amount of telvar in PvP danger zones. Same with the City Proper, stunted when PvP isn't active but increased when it is.
For telvar loss, in PvP, it is increases to total lost on death, but the killing player/s gain 25%. Death to PvE monsters is 75% loss.
Have you considered that everyone abandoning the PvP IC for the PVE version is in fact a loss of gameplay for the people
Yeah...I'm gonna say that's a bad deal. How on earth do you think that's a fair suggestion for PVPers?
See, that statement of yours is equal proportionally applied to the PvE content of the city. Having forced PvP is a loss of gameplay for those who want to PvE But not PvP. It's just as bad a deal for casual players that want to explor the city or it's sewers, but are unable to due to violent players. Why is it fair to PvE-ers to have explicit PvE content and be unallowed to complete it?
You've misunderstood Imperial City completely if you think any part of it is PVE content, so this is a false dichotomy.
From the very beginning, plastered over every promotional material ZOS wrote, it's very clearly a mixed PvP/PvE zone. It still is, which is why it's very clearly included in Whitestrake's Mayhem.
Sources for your perusal:"The dangers of Imperial City and the Sewers below are best suited for small groups of adventurers, but highly skilled warriors have been known to strike out on their own. While exploring and fighting your way through the Imperial City, be prepared to face not only Molag Bal's forces, but also enemy players from the opposing alliances. Rewards that are unmatched in power await those who are brave enough to enter the Imperial City and claim them. Fight Molag Bal's personal guard, the elite Xivkyn, and other invaders from Coldharbour to win Tel Var Stones, the currency used to trade for mighty Veteran Rank 16 armor sets. But be on your guard—enemy Alliance members lurk around every corner throughout the Imperial Districts and Sewers. Should you fall to an enemy player, they can claim your hard-earned Tel Var Stones in their own quest for glory."
-Imperial City Launch Details, https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25357“Since Tel Var Stones are so sought after and valuable, there is also a chance that you could lose yours. If a monster or enemy player within the Imperial City manages to kill your character, you will lose 50% of the Tel Var Stones you were carrying—and the enemy player will get all of them (split among anyone who helped to subdue you.) You will be able to see the amount of stones you lost in your death recap window. You can't lose Tel Var Stones outside the Imperial City (Districts and Sewers.)
“In order to prevent high loses, you can deposit your Tel Var Stones in your personal bank; any banker in Tamriel is more than happy to accept them. All the Tel Var Stones in your bank are safe and can't be lost if your player character dies in the Imperial City. Of course, after you deposited your stones and carry no more on you, your multiplier will reset, too.
“For those who want to avoid any risk, we've added quests, including repeatable ones, in the Imperial City that will reward you with a Tel Var Stone box. Unlike with Tel Var Stones you get by killing monsters and enemy-alliance player characters, you won't lose these boxes if your character is slain. You can take these boxes to your home base, open them in safety, and deposit all the Tel Var Stones inside straight into your bank. Doing so will prevent these stones from increasing your multiplier, but it keeps them safe. Or you just open them right where you got them … deciding if the risk is worth it is up to you!’
Source: Imperial City Tel Var Guide https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/guides/imperialcitytelvar
This is a common misconception that PVErs somehow "own" skyshards and quests just because the rest of the game has PVE-only zones.
That's not true in the mixed PVE/PVP zones like Cyrodiil and Imperial City where the Devs intended for you to quest and skyshard hunt in the middle of fighting with enemy players...as you can see in their own words above. Or, you know, you could review Whitestrake's Mayhem, which explicitly talks about fighting enemy players while you do the quests that award you tickets? Source: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/62567
That perception of PVE entitlement to the reward of a mixed PVP/PVE zone is incredibly tiresome. And as someone who initially hated PVP and did the Imperial City quest on my PVE Stam sorc, I have a lot of sympathy for PVEers who are scared. But being scared or failing doesn't entitle anyone to the rewards of Imperial City (any more than it would entitle players to the rewards of Vet Trials they can't or won't do.) You gotta get over the fear and get good enough to get 'er done, which IME isn't actually all that hard. That's one of the reasons why I write a guide for the Mayhem event that's geared towards players who've trying out PVP for the first time.
To return to an ealier suggestion in which nothing is lost for your sense of PvP, make the city Proper the area in which players PvP, and the Sewers the Place where those that want to can PvE in peace. Nothing is lost here in your words. There's still an area in which PvP occurs, and there's a place where PvE occurs.
Just because you seem to struggle with the concept of designing a mixed PVE/PVP zone doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
It means that players will fight NPCs at the same time as they fight enemy players. That's pretty clear from the sources I listed, but I'll repeat ZOS' words for you: "While exploring and fighting your way through the Imperial City, be prepared to face not only Molag Bal's forces, but also enemy players from the opposing alliances."
You may not care for mixed PvE/PvP. But that's exactly what ZOS intended. ZOS in no way intended for there to be a PVE-only, safe part of the Imperial City for Tel Var farming, just like there's no way to avoid the heaps and heaps of NPC mobs, minibosses, and powerful wandering world bosses while you PVP. It's a mixed PvE/PvP zone.
And you are incorrect about something being lost.
Status Quo: Players who like Imperial City have mixed PvE/PvP in the City and the Sewers as the Devs designed and intended.
Your suggestion: Players who like Imperial City as it is now get to PVP in the city Proper, but not at all in the Sewers, which become a PVE-only farming zone.
That's a loss for anyone who likes the status quo, bud. And as I've previously discussed, the status quo works just fine for ZOS and also for the loads of people who go to IC during events whether they like it or not.
It's a gain for anyone who wants a PVE-only safe way to grind their Tel Var, I'll grant that, but since ZOS never intended to give you that in the first place, I think its a poorly thought out, selfish idea designed to take away the current intended gameplay we've had for years and replace it with something you want more.
P.S. If you want to nitpick and say that any zone where PVP occurs becomes a PvP zone and therefore PvEers need their space too, please reread that bolded quote and understand that ZOS intended for there to be PvP happening everywhere in the Imperial City.
If by your definition any PvP means it's a PvP zone, then clearly ZOS intended for Imperial City to be a PvP zone.Edited by VaranisArano on April 13, 2023 12:11PM6 -
Lord_Archaic✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Lord_Archaic wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Lord_Archaic wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Lord_Archaic wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Why is IC still a PVP zone?
A. Because ZOS generally isn't in the business of taking away gameplay from players, and yes, giving players an easy PVE-only version of the zone would take away gameplay. Tell me that PVP players wouldn't go to the easier version to get skyshards, etc.......
If they did make a PvE only instance of the City/Sewer there would not be any gameplay lost as there is PvP elsewhere in the game. And I said in an earlier post that of course everyone would abandon the PvP instance for a PvE instance of the city.
When you have a choice of being forced into PvP when there is another option, whenever possible the majority will choose not PvP, because when you just want to play the game.
And to the PvE content itself in the sewers, I have no idea what the center area in the sewers even looks like, I can only guess from what the loading screen looks like. I have never been able to make it that far without running into groups of PKers If you want to compromise, make the sewers PvE and the City Proper PvP. The PvE-ers get to do sewers, and the PvPers get to participate in little Cyro.
Here's an idea for PvPing in the City/ Sewers:
To initiate PvP in the City, an alliance needs to own the flags of all 6 districts. Now the players that attack the flags allow for retaliatory defenders. There may have to be cooldown times or a limit for PvE-ers back into the city, or make it like Cyro Proper where each flag needs to be flipped, but when that happens, thats where the cooldown timer starts.
Now for the Sewers: First off, the central area is a neutral zone(non-PvP). But each triad of the sewer is where the danger is. The alliance that owns a specific wing are able to start the PvP encounter; meaning if you're EP, you'll be safe in your section of the sewer from attacks from other alliances, but when you venture into DC/AD territory, you can be attacked from the people in that zone. To promote risk/reward for this, you get stunted telvar in your safe zones and the central neutral zone, but you gain an increased amount of telvar in PvP danger zones. Same with the City Proper, stunted when PvP isn't active but increased when it is.
For telvar loss, in PvP, it is increases to total lost on death, but the killing player/s gain 25%. Death to PvE monsters is 75% loss.
Have you considered that everyone abandoning the PvP IC for the PVE version is in fact a loss of gameplay for the people
Yeah...I'm gonna say that's a bad deal. How on earth do you think that's a fair suggestion for PVPers?
See, that statement of yours is equal proportionally applied to the PvE content of the city. Having forced PvP is a loss of gameplay for those who want to PvE But not PvP. It's just as bad a deal for casual players that want to explor the city or it's sewers, but are unable to due to violent players. Why is it fair to PvE-ers to have explicit PvE content and be unallowed to complete it?
You've misunderstood Imperial City completely if you think any part of it is PVE content, so this is a false dichotomy.
From the very beginning, plastered over every promotional material ZOS wrote, it's very clearly a mixed PvP/PvE zone. It still is, which is why it's very clearly included in Whitestrake's Mayhem.
Sources for your perusal:"The dangers of Imperial City and the Sewers below are best suited for small groups of adventurers, but highly skilled warriors have been known to strike out on their own. While exploring and fighting your way through the Imperial City, be prepared to face not only Molag Bal's forces, but also enemy players from the opposing alliances. Rewards that are unmatched in power await those who are brave enough to enter the Imperial City and claim them. Fight Molag Bal's personal guard, the elite Xivkyn, and other invaders from Coldharbour to win Tel Var Stones, the currency used to trade for mighty Veteran Rank 16 armor sets. But be on your guard—enemy Alliance members lurk around every corner throughout the Imperial Districts and Sewers. Should you fall to an enemy player, they can claim your hard-earned Tel Var Stones in their own quest for glory."
-Imperial City Launch Details, https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25357“Since Tel Var Stones are so sought after and valuable, there is also a chance that you could lose yours. If a monster or enemy player within the Imperial City manages to kill your character, you will lose 50% of the Tel Var Stones you were carrying—and the enemy player will get all of them (split among anyone who helped to subdue you.) You will be able to see the amount of stones you lost in your death recap window. You can't lose Tel Var Stones outside the Imperial City (Districts and Sewers.)
“In order to prevent high loses, you can deposit your Tel Var Stones in your personal bank; any banker in Tamriel is more than happy to accept them. All the Tel Var Stones in your bank are safe and can't be lost if your player character dies in the Imperial City. Of course, after you deposited your stones and carry no more on you, your multiplier will reset, too.
“For those who want to avoid any risk, we've added quests, including repeatable ones, in the Imperial City that will reward you with a Tel Var Stone box. Unlike with Tel Var Stones you get by killing monsters and enemy-alliance player characters, you won't lose these boxes if your character is slain. You can take these boxes to your home base, open them in safety, and deposit all the Tel Var Stones inside straight into your bank. Doing so will prevent these stones from increasing your multiplier, but it keeps them safe. Or you just open them right where you got them … deciding if the risk is worth it is up to you!’
Source: Imperial City Tel Var Guide https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/guides/imperialcitytelvar
This is a common misconception that PVErs somehow "own" skyshards and quests just because the rest of the game has PVE-only zones.
That's not true in the mixed PVE/PVP zones like Cyrodiil and Imperial City where the Devs intended for you to quest and skyshard hunt in the middle of fighting with enemy players...as you can see in their own words above. Or, you know, you could review Whitestrake's Mayhem, which explicitly talks about fighting enemy players while you do the quests that award you tickets? Source: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/62567
That perception of PVE entitlement to the reward of a mixed PVP/PVE zone is incredibly tiresome. And as someone who initially hated PVP and did the Imperial City quest on my PVE Stam sorc, I have a lot of sympathy for PVEers who are scared. But being scared or failing doesn't entitle anyone to the rewards of Imperial City (any more than it would entitle players to the rewards of Vet Trials they can't or won't do.) You gotta get over the fear and get good enough to get 'er done, which IME isn't actually all that hard. That's one of the reasons why I write a guide for the Mayhem event that's geared towards players who've trying out PVP for the first time.
To return to an ealier suggestion in which nothing is lost for your sense of PvP, make the city Proper the area in which players PvP, and the Sewers the Place where those that want to can PvE in peace. Nothing is lost here in your words. There's still an area in which PvP occurs, and there's a place where PvE occurs.
Just because you seem to struggle with the concept of designing a mixed PVE/PVP zone doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
It means that players will fight NPCs at the same time as they fight enemy players. That's pretty clear from the sources I listed, but I'll repeat ZOS' words for you: "While exploring and fighting your way through the Imperial City, be prepared to face not only Molag Bal's forces, but also enemy players from the opposing alliances."
You may not care for mixed PvE/PvP. But that's exactly what ZOS intended. ZOS in no way intended for there to be a PVE-only, safe part of the Imperial City for Tel Var farming, just like there's no way to avoid the heaps and heaps of NPC mobs, minibosses, and powerful wandering world bosses while you PVP. It's a mixed PvE/PvP zone.
And you are incorrect about something being lost.
Status Quo: Players who like Imperial City have mixed PvE/PvP in the City and the Sewers as the Devs designed and intended.
Your suggestion: Players who like Imperial City as it is now get to PVP in the city Proper, but not at all in the Sewers, which become a PVE-only farming zone.
That's a loss for anyone who likes the status quo, bud. And as I've previously discussed, the status quo works just fine for ZOS and also for the loads of people who go to IC during events whether they like it or not.
It's a gain for anyone who wants a PVE-only safe way to grind their Tel Var, I'll grant that, but since ZOS never intended to give you that in the first place, I think its a poorly thought out, selfish idea designed to take away the current intended gameplay we've had for years and replace it with something you want more.
P.S. If you want to nitpick and say that any zone where PVP occurs becomes a PvP zone and therefore PvEers need their space too, please reread that bolded quote and understand that ZOS intended for there to be PvP happening everywhere in the Imperial City.
If by your definition any PvP means it's a PvP zone, then clearly ZOS intended for Imperial City to be a PvP zone.
In your own words you have said it is a false dichotomy to say ANY part of the city is PvE. You yourself have that people shouldn't PvE there or face the wrath of those there strictly to PvP.
If I've misunderstood something about the creation of the City and it's Sewers, it's that what the Devs originally had in mind only comes about once a year During Midyear. The PvE content in the City or it's Sewers is largely unplayable again due to people who make it their sole purpose to hunt down and kill PvE-ers. Whatever intention may have been had, went out the window with the bath water when it's initial release set in.
The status quo for the city is if you try to PvE, you will be hunted and killed until you leave. And then the next group that tries to PvE will be hunted and killed. I have never seen a large group PvEing in the city outside of MyM, it just doesn't happen, because when it does, griefers in other alliances comes in equal force and murders everyone. The rule in the City is if you PvE, you Die.Edited by Lord_Archaic on April 13, 2023 1:19PM1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lord_Archaic wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Lord_Archaic wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Lord_Archaic wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Lord_Archaic wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Why is IC still a PVP zone?
A. Because ZOS generally isn't in the business of taking away gameplay from players, and yes, giving players an easy PVE-only version of the zone would take away gameplay. Tell me that PVP players wouldn't go to the easier version to get skyshards, etc.......
If they did make a PvE only instance of the City/Sewer there would not be any gameplay lost as there is PvP elsewhere in the game. And I said in an earlier post that of course everyone would abandon the PvP instance for a PvE instance of the city.
When you have a choice of being forced into PvP when there is another option, whenever possible the majority will choose not PvP, because when you just want to play the game.
And to the PvE content itself in the sewers, I have no idea what the center area in the sewers even looks like, I can only guess from what the loading screen looks like. I have never been able to make it that far without running into groups of PKers If you want to compromise, make the sewers PvE and the City Proper PvP. The PvE-ers get to do sewers, and the PvPers get to participate in little Cyro.
Here's an idea for PvPing in the City/ Sewers:
To initiate PvP in the City, an alliance needs to own the flags of all 6 districts. Now the players that attack the flags allow for retaliatory defenders. There may have to be cooldown times or a limit for PvE-ers back into the city, or make it like Cyro Proper where each flag needs to be flipped, but when that happens, thats where the cooldown timer starts.
Now for the Sewers: First off, the central area is a neutral zone(non-PvP). But each triad of the sewer is where the danger is. The alliance that owns a specific wing are able to start the PvP encounter; meaning if you're EP, you'll be safe in your section of the sewer from attacks from other alliances, but when you venture into DC/AD territory, you can be attacked from the people in that zone. To promote risk/reward for this, you get stunted telvar in your safe zones and the central neutral zone, but you gain an increased amount of telvar in PvP danger zones. Same with the City Proper, stunted when PvP isn't active but increased when it is.
For telvar loss, in PvP, it is increases to total lost on death, but the killing player/s gain 25%. Death to PvE monsters is 75% loss.
Have you considered that everyone abandoning the PvP IC for the PVE version is in fact a loss of gameplay for the people
Yeah...I'm gonna say that's a bad deal. How on earth do you think that's a fair suggestion for PVPers?
See, that statement of yours is equal proportionally applied to the PvE content of the city. Having forced PvP is a loss of gameplay for those who want to PvE But not PvP. It's just as bad a deal for casual players that want to explor the city or it's sewers, but are unable to due to violent players. Why is it fair to PvE-ers to have explicit PvE content and be unallowed to complete it?
You've misunderstood Imperial City completely if you think any part of it is PVE content, so this is a false dichotomy.
From the very beginning, plastered over every promotional material ZOS wrote, it's very clearly a mixed PvP/PvE zone. It still is, which is why it's very clearly included in Whitestrake's Mayhem.
Sources for your perusal:"The dangers of Imperial City and the Sewers below are best suited for small groups of adventurers, but highly skilled warriors have been known to strike out on their own. While exploring and fighting your way through the Imperial City, be prepared to face not only Molag Bal's forces, but also enemy players from the opposing alliances. Rewards that are unmatched in power await those who are brave enough to enter the Imperial City and claim them. Fight Molag Bal's personal guard, the elite Xivkyn, and other invaders from Coldharbour to win Tel Var Stones, the currency used to trade for mighty Veteran Rank 16 armor sets. But be on your guard—enemy Alliance members lurk around every corner throughout the Imperial Districts and Sewers. Should you fall to an enemy player, they can claim your hard-earned Tel Var Stones in their own quest for glory."
-Imperial City Launch Details, https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25357“Since Tel Var Stones are so sought after and valuable, there is also a chance that you could lose yours. If a monster or enemy player within the Imperial City manages to kill your character, you will lose 50% of the Tel Var Stones you were carrying—and the enemy player will get all of them (split among anyone who helped to subdue you.) You will be able to see the amount of stones you lost in your death recap window. You can't lose Tel Var Stones outside the Imperial City (Districts and Sewers.)
“In order to prevent high loses, you can deposit your Tel Var Stones in your personal bank; any banker in Tamriel is more than happy to accept them. All the Tel Var Stones in your bank are safe and can't be lost if your player character dies in the Imperial City. Of course, after you deposited your stones and carry no more on you, your multiplier will reset, too.
“For those who want to avoid any risk, we've added quests, including repeatable ones, in the Imperial City that will reward you with a Tel Var Stone box. Unlike with Tel Var Stones you get by killing monsters and enemy-alliance player characters, you won't lose these boxes if your character is slain. You can take these boxes to your home base, open them in safety, and deposit all the Tel Var Stones inside straight into your bank. Doing so will prevent these stones from increasing your multiplier, but it keeps them safe. Or you just open them right where you got them … deciding if the risk is worth it is up to you!’
Source: Imperial City Tel Var Guide https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/guides/imperialcitytelvar
This is a common misconception that PVErs somehow "own" skyshards and quests just because the rest of the game has PVE-only zones.
That's not true in the mixed PVE/PVP zones like Cyrodiil and Imperial City where the Devs intended for you to quest and skyshard hunt in the middle of fighting with enemy players...as you can see in their own words above. Or, you know, you could review Whitestrake's Mayhem, which explicitly talks about fighting enemy players while you do the quests that award you tickets? Source: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/62567
That perception of PVE entitlement to the reward of a mixed PVP/PVE zone is incredibly tiresome. And as someone who initially hated PVP and did the Imperial City quest on my PVE Stam sorc, I have a lot of sympathy for PVEers who are scared. But being scared or failing doesn't entitle anyone to the rewards of Imperial City (any more than it would entitle players to the rewards of Vet Trials they can't or won't do.) You gotta get over the fear and get good enough to get 'er done, which IME isn't actually all that hard. That's one of the reasons why I write a guide for the Mayhem event that's geared towards players who've trying out PVP for the first time.
To return to an ealier suggestion in which nothing is lost for your sense of PvP, make the city Proper the area in which players PvP, and the Sewers the Place where those that want to can PvE in peace. Nothing is lost here in your words. There's still an area in which PvP occurs, and there's a place where PvE occurs.
Just because you seem to struggle with the concept of designing a mixed PVE/PVP zone doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
It means that players will fight NPCs at the same time as they fight enemy players. That's pretty clear from the sources I listed, but I'll repeat ZOS' words for you: "While exploring and fighting your way through the Imperial City, be prepared to face not only Molag Bal's forces, but also enemy players from the opposing alliances."
You may not care for mixed PvE/PvP. But that's exactly what ZOS intended. ZOS in no way intended for there to be a PVE-only, safe part of the Imperial City for Tel Var farming, just like there's no way to avoid the heaps and heaps of NPC mobs, minibosses, and powerful wandering world bosses while you PVP. It's a mixed PvE/PvP zone.
And you are incorrect about something being lost.
Status Quo: Players who like Imperial City have mixed PvE/PvP in the City and the Sewers as the Devs designed and intended.
Your suggestion: Players who like Imperial City as it is now get to PVP in the city Proper, but not at all in the Sewers, which become a PVE-only farming zone.
That's a loss for anyone who likes the status quo, bud. And as I've previously discussed, the status quo works just fine for ZOS and also for the loads of people who go to IC during events whether they like it or not.
It's a gain for anyone who wants a PVE-only safe way to grind their Tel Var, I'll grant that, but since ZOS never intended to give you that in the first place, I think its a poorly thought out, selfish idea designed to take away the current intended gameplay we've had for years and replace it with something you want more.
P.S. If you want to nitpick and say that any zone where PVP occurs becomes a PvP zone and therefore PvEers need their space too, please reread that bolded quote and understand that ZOS intended for there to be PvP happening everywhere in the Imperial City.
If by your definition any PvP means it's a PvP zone, then clearly ZOS intended for Imperial City to be a PvP zone.
In your own words you have said it is a false dichotomy to say ANY part of the city is PvE. You yourself have that people shouldn't PvE there or face the wrath of those there strictly to PvP.
If I've misunderstood something about the creation of the City and it's Sewers, it's that what the Devs originally had in mind only comes about once a year During Midyear. The PvE content in the City or it's Sewers is largely unplayable again due to people who make it their sole purpose to hunt down and kill PvE-ers. Whatever intention may have been had, went out the window with the bath water when it's initial release set in.
The status quo for the city is if you try to PvE, you will be hunted and killed until you leave. And then the next group that tries to PvE will be hunted and killed. I have never seen a large group PvEing in the city outside of MyM, it just doesn't happen, because when it does, griefers in other alliances comes in equal force and murders everyone. The rule in the City is if you PvE, you Die.
Not just my words, bud. ZOS' words. As I've cited several times, and you keep ignoring the sources because they aren't saying what you want them to say.
And yeah, Imperial City does get pretty populated twice a year. Maybe even three, if ZOS runs the Imperial City event with double Tel Var drops.
I'm not sure what you mean by "if you try to PVE" here.
Farming for Tel Var? Go review the sources I cited and tell me with sources of your own that ZOS doesn't intend for farming Tel Var to happen with while fighting off enemy players.
Questing? I'd like you to review the Imperial City Arena. One of the quests features a boss fight against some tough minibosses. There's also an IC achievement for killing enemy players in the Arena. What, ZOS mixing Player vs Boss and Player vs Player gameplay in the same Arena? Yeah, they did that!
Fishing? Funnily enough, I've been killed whilst fishing and also had enemy players chase me to my fishing spot and then walk away when I started fishing instead of fighting. It's almost like when you die in Imperial City, you can rez up, and try again another place or another day.
Of course, if "trying to PvE" really means "I rolled up in my PVE-only gear because I shouldn't have to PvP even though I queued up for an alliance War zone and by Talos I'm gonna die on that hill..."
Look, if you go into a zone where the Devs intended you to fight NPCs and enemy players at the same time and you choose to not prepare for the enemy player part of the equation, I really don't know how you expect to not die. It's like walking into Vet Maelstrom or Vateshran underleveled, undergeared, blind to all the mechanics, and expecting to Flawless the first time.
Everyone dies in PvP. Especially the PvPers. We've just learned to rez up and try again because death is cheap and there's always more than one way to achieve our objective.
As I say in my guide every Mayhem event, you don't have to seek out enemy players to fight yourself. But if you don't defensively prepare for the PvP part of the equation when you enter Cyrodiil and Imperial City, you can't be surprised when PvP happens and you die. Even for those of us who do prepare or who seek out enemy players to fight, that's completely normal for Cyrodiil and Imperial City. We all die at points, rez up, and try again or find another way to achieve our objective.
I get that dying and trying again is frustrating for PVE-only players who're a bit coddled by easy overland zones, but that's not a good reason to change Imperial City for the players who like it as it is.Edited by VaranisArano on April 13, 2023 2:42PM9 -
It’s not a problem to make a PVE IC version.
With leaderboards, x2 stronger mobs annd bosses and x0,1 Telvar drop rates. Because you have no risk.Edited by pedrogonzalez on April 13, 2023 10:11PM0 -
Lord_Archaic wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Lord_Archaic wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Why is IC still a PVP zone?
A. Because ZOS generally isn't in the business of taking away gameplay from players, and yes, giving players an easy PVE-only version of the zone would take away gameplay. Tell me that PVP players wouldn't go to the easier version to get skyshards, etc.......
If they did make a PvE only instance of the City/Sewer there would not be any gameplay lost as there is PvP elsewhere in the game. And I said in an earlier post that of course everyone would abandon the PvP instance for a PvE instance of the city.
When you have a choice of being forced into PvP when there is another option, whenever possible the majority will choose not PvP, because when you just want to play the game.
And to the PvE content itself in the sewers, I have no idea what the center area in the sewers even looks like, I can only guess from what the loading screen looks like. I have never been able to make it that far without running into groups of PKers If you want to compromise, make the sewers PvE and the City Proper PvP. The PvE-ers get to do sewers, and the PvPers get to participate in little Cyro.
Here's an idea for PvPing in the City/ Sewers:
To initiate PvP in the City, an alliance needs to own the flags of all 6 districts. Now the players that attack the flags allow for retaliatory defenders. There may have to be cooldown times or a limit for PvE-ers back into the city, or make it like Cyro Proper where each flag needs to be flipped, but when that happens, thats where the cooldown timer starts.
Now for the Sewers: First off, the central area is a neutral zone(non-PvP). But each triad of the sewer is where the danger is. The alliance that owns a specific wing are able to start the PvP encounter; meaning if you're EP, you'll be safe in your section of the sewer from attacks from other alliances, but when you venture into DC/AD territory, you can be attacked from the people in that zone. To promote risk/reward for this, you get stunted telvar in your safe zones and the central neutral zone, but you gain an increased amount of telvar in PvP danger zones. Same with the City Proper, stunted when PvP isn't active but increased when it is.
For telvar loss, in PvP, it is increases to total lost on death, but the killing player/s gain 25%. Death to PvE monsters is 75% loss.
Have you considered that everyone abandoning the PvP IC for the PVE version is in fact a loss of gameplay for the people
Yeah...I'm gonna say that's a bad deal. How on earth do you think that's a fair suggestion for PVPers?
See, that statement of yours is equal proportionally applied to the PvE content of the city. Having forced PvP is a loss of gameplay for those who want to PvE But not PvP. It's just as bad a deal for casual players that want to explor the city or it's sewers, but are unable to due to violent players. Why is it fair to PvE-ers to have explicit PvE content and be unallowed to complete it?
Let’s say for example:
I am not interested in pve content. I need all that sets, mythic gear etc. Why I forced to do that content? I need only reward. Add a key in menu for me that will just mail me rewards.
I think it’s very similar to point of “pvers forced to pvp “2 -
Soarora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Lord_Archaic wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Why is IC still a PVP zone?
A. Because ZOS generally isn't in the business of taking away gameplay from players, and yes, giving players an easy PVE-only version of the zone would take away gameplay. Tell me that PVP players wouldn't go to the easier version to get skyshards, etc.......
If they did make a PvE only instance of the City/Sewer there would not be any gameplay lost as there is PvP elsewhere in the game. And I said in an earlier post that of course everyone would abandon the PvP instance for a PvE instance of the city.
When you have a choice of being forced into PvP when there is another option, whenever possible the majority will choose not PvP, because when you just want to play the game.
And to the PvE content itself in the sewers, I have no idea what the center area in the sewers even looks like, I can only guess from what the loading screen looks like. I have never been able to make it that far without running into groups of PKers If you want to compromise, make the sewers PvE and the City Proper PvP. The PvE-ers get to do sewers, and the PvPers get to participate in little Cyro.
Here's an idea for PvPing in the City/ Sewers:
To initiate PvP in the City, an alliance needs to own the flags of all 6 districts. Now the players that attack the flags allow for retaliatory defenders. There may have to be cooldown times or a limit for PvE-ers back into the city, or make it like Cyro Proper where each flag needs to be flipped, but when that happens, thats where the cooldown timer starts.
Now for the Sewers: First off, the central area is a neutral zone(non-PvP). But each triad of the sewer is where the danger is. The alliance that owns a specific wing are able to start the PvP encounter; meaning if you're EP, you'll be safe in your section of the sewer from attacks from other alliances, but when you venture into DC/AD territory, you can be attacked from the people in that zone. To promote risk/reward for this, you get stunted telvar in your safe zones and the central neutral zone, but you gain an increased amount of telvar in PvP danger zones. Same with the City Proper, stunted when PvP isn't active but increased when it is.
For telvar loss, in PvP, it is increases to total lost on death, but the killing player/s gain 25%. Death to PvE monsters is 75% loss.
As someone who has been to the center of the sewers a few times I will tell you this: you CANNOT do the fight there as a solo player. It's hard as a group, you're best off even having a tank and a healer. The drops from the center sewer boss are also limited to 12 people. I have not had anyone attack during the fight but I would not want to lose out on my drops because some other alliance person came in and decided to leech. Also, because it's not solo-friendly, there's no problem getting there because you're a group in the first place. Actually, this carries over to topside too where I find groups of PvErs to be scarier than a random PvPer because a group of PvErs can and often will PvP because they have strength in numbers. They also are unavoidable as they are after the same things while PvPers can be avoided by moving a few districts over and watching out. There is no direct divide between PvErs and PvPers. And tel var and associated rewards are based in imperial city being a PvPvE zone, leaning towards PvP. The tel var + alliance rank armor motif set was even described as for dedicated pvpers. Imperial City should not be turned into an only PvE zone at all. The PvP risk comes with the location and the rewards... and this is coming from someone who only goes there with the intent to PvE.PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore- CP 2000+
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Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lord_Archaic wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Why is IC still a PVP zone?
A. Because ZOS generally isn't in the business of taking away gameplay from players, and yes, giving players an easy PVE-only version of the zone would take away gameplay. Tell me that PVP players wouldn't go to the easier version to get skyshards, etc.......
If they did make a PvE only instance of the City/Sewer there would not be any gameplay lost as there is PvP elsewhere in the game. And I said in an earlier post that of course everyone would abandon the PvP instance for a PvE instance of the city.
When you have a choice of being forced into PvP when there is another option, whenever possible the majority will choose not PvP, because when you just want to play the game.
And to the PvE content itself in the sewers, I have no idea what the center area in the sewers even looks like, I can only guess from what the loading screen looks like. I have never been able to make it that far without running into groups of PKers If you want to compromise, make the sewers PvE and the City Proper PvP. The PvE-ers get to do sewers, and the PvPers get to participate in little Cyro.
Here's an idea for PvPing in the City/ Sewers:
To initiate PvP in the City, an alliance needs to own the flags of all 6 districts. Now the players that attack the flags allow for retaliatory defenders. There may have to be cooldown times or a limit for PvE-ers back into the city, or make it like Cyro Proper where each flag needs to be flipped, but when that happens, thats where the cooldown timer starts.
Now for the Sewers: First off, the central area is a neutral zone(non-PvP). But each triad of the sewer is where the danger is. The alliance that owns a specific wing are able to start the PvP encounter; meaning if you're EP, you'll be safe in your section of the sewer from attacks from other alliances, but when you venture into DC/AD territory, you can be attacked from the people in that zone. To promote risk/reward for this, you get stunted telvar in your safe zones and the central neutral zone, but you gain an increased amount of telvar in PvP danger zones. Same with the City Proper, stunted when PvP isn't active but increased when it is.
For telvar loss, in PvP, it is increases to total lost on death, but the killing player/s gain 25%. Death to PvE monsters is 75% loss.
As someone who has been to the center of the sewers a few times I will tell you this: you CANNOT do the fight there as a solo player. It's hard as a group, you're best off even having a tank and a healer. The drops from the center sewer boss are also limited to 12 people. I have not had anyone attack during the fight but I would not want to lose out on my drops because some other alliance person came in and decided to leech. Also, because it's not solo-friendly, there's no problem getting there because you're a group in the first place. Actually, this carries over to topside too where I find groups of PvErs to be scarier than a random PvPer because a group of PvErs can and often will PvP because they have strength in numbers. They also are unavoidable as they are after the same things while PvPers can be avoided by moving a few districts over and watching out. There is no direct divide between PvErs and PvPers. And tel var and associated rewards are based in imperial city being a PvPvE zone, leaning towards PvP. The tel var + alliance rank armor motif set was even described as for dedicated pvpers. Imperial City should not be turned into an only PvE zone at all. The PvP risk comes with the location and the rewards... and this is coming from someone who only goes there with the intent to PvE.
i can 100% confirm that you can solo the molag bal event in the sewers (i usually routinely do it, killing the banner guys on the to and from the center too)
the vast majority of time i rarely see other players down there, or im at way off peak hours
if i get a bunch of banner guys on the way to and from, i can usually net around 15-20k tel var in 45-60 min it takes me to do the whole loop
way way back in the day in 2015 when it released, it was much much harder and i agree it would have been very difficult without a group lol5 -
KiltMaster✭✭✭✭How about let PVPers have their small slice of the pie when 99% of the rest of the game is PVE based with no outlook on if/when there will ever be another PVP update againPC/NA
GM of "Kilts for Sale"
Ebonheart Pact
He/Him4 -
KlauthWarthog✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭IC is basically a failed experiment.
People who like PvE are a subset of the general game's population, people who like PvP are a subset of the general game's population, people who like both PvE and PvP are the intersection of the mentioned groups, and people who like PvE and PvP at the same time are a subset of that intersection.
Then you pile up a couple of design choices that favor a small set of builds and mentalities, and you get a very small population.
Yes, IC gets people when there is an event going on. Thing is, it only gets people when there is an event going on.
New PvP content should be exactly that - PvP content. Not this failed amalgam of PvE and PvP.3 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Remove spawn restrictions, bring back the endless Memorial brawl.
Cap telvar winnings based on how much you wager yourself.PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps4 -
Casul✭✭✭✭✭
✭Man IC sewers back on release was amazing. I remember giant battles in arena district where everyone was just having a blast. Miss those days.PvP needs more love.2 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Man IC sewers back on release was amazing. I remember giant battles in arena district where everyone was just having a blast. Miss those days.
i remember that stuff too, all of this was killed because of the surface respawn restrictions due to needing to own a flag to respawn there2 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Man IC sewers back on release was amazing. I remember giant battles in arena district where everyone was just having a blast. Miss those days.
Yea it's sad, they took away a PvP mode that anyone could immediately jump into and enjoy, and tried to make it into a competitive moba or something. The general mechanical hostility towards solos and pugs makes no sense in what's ultimately a casual game where that's how the majority of players come in, not as tryhard premades.Necrotech_Master wrote: »i remember that stuff too, all of this was killed because of the surface respawn restrictions due to needing to own a flag to respawn therePC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps4 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »Man IC sewers back on release was amazing. I remember giant battles in arena district where everyone was just having a blast. Miss those days.
Yea it's sad, they took away a PvP mode that anyone could immediately jump into and enjoy, and tried to make it into a competitive moba or something. The general mechanical hostility towards solos and pugs makes no sense in what's ultimately a casual game where that's how the majority of players come in, not as tryhard premades.Necrotech_Master wrote: »i remember that stuff too, all of this was killed because of the surface respawn restrictions due to needing to own a flag to respawn there
its the main reason i spend more time farming in the sewers, if im on the surface im just gonna be lazy and troll from the arena tower because its low risk and if i die and have to respawn down below i dont have to worry about hunting for loot from a boss i killed on the other side of the district, which would go away anyway if i had to respawn downstairs in the sewer due to zoning1 -
nublife01✭✭✭✭Lord_Archaic wrote: »Number of PVE zones: 41
Number of PVP zones: 2
why there are too few PVP zones in ESO, may i ask?
If you think one PvE zone is any different than any other PvE zone, then you're attacking the argument incorrectly.
Currently, there are 4 different PvP experiences: Cyrodiil with mass groups of players and seiging, Imperial City/Sewers with small groups of guerrilla tactics, BGs with 3 teams fighting over objectives, and one on one duels that can take place virtually anywhere. For PvE you have two.
You have your overworld, which is your questing and zone activities like daedric incursions and world bosses. Nothing new in any new zone we see. In necrom theres gonna be some type of daedric incursions, a few world bosses and delves. And then you have the Underworld activites which are your dungeons, trials, and solo arenas. Which for all intents and purposes are classified as one because they're derivative of dungeons. Trials are just dungeons with tougher enemies, and solo arenas are just dungeons to test a player's mettle.
When a change comes to the PvE sandbox, is because it affected pvp players the most. PvP is given preferential treatment because that is where you're gonna have your more hardcore players. Whenever there's hard backlash that the devs listen to, it comes from the PvP side of players.
thats because its a pvp zone not a pve zone. you load into it the same way you load into cyrodiil.0 -
Iriidius✭✭✭
In the last 20 updates PvE got 10 new Zones, 20 dungeons and 5 trials while PvP got 0 new Cyrodiil or IC like zones, few new battlegrounds very long ago and 0 new duells. Maybe the PvE zones, dungeons and trials are all done after the same zone/dungeon/trial concept, maybe you see them as copys of each other, but PvP modes didnt even get one copy of an existing concept and now you even want to take away IC from them, so PvP actually would loose content. Despite new PvE zones, dungeons and Trials beeing done after old concept and not beeing the first and only PvE zones, dungeons and Trials in game, they are still the main content of every of the last 20 updates and developers spent almost all their ressoursses for new content on them so saying there wasnt new PvE content in 20 updates is wrong.Lord_Archaic wrote: »........There hasnt been major new pvp content for almost 20 updates I think.
You saying there hasn't been a change to PvP in like 20 updates is no different than saying there hasn't been a change to PvE in 20 updates either.
Each chapter zone has had the same elements every single iteration, has been this way since summerset dropped. So answer me this: Why should I play Necrom when I know exactly what's going to happen and everthing it's going have? Why should anyone play it over any previous zone? Because this is what its going to have:
Judging on the size of the landmass, it'll be another 6 world bosses, 6 delves, more than likely in keeping with previous chapters, it will have 6 or 7 incursion spots. These are your vents, geysers, dragons, etc. And associated dailies to go with them. You're gonna want to be saving all your reward crates for until after the second or third patch after it drops for the furnishing plans and motifs that will be added into them.
There's gonna be 6 or 7 Necrom Main Quests; and from what they've shown us we're going to be more than likely investigating some reports with a telvanni mage or that one's gone missing and it will lead to either Herma Mora being released or him controlling the telvanni mage to do his bidding to gain some type of forbidden telvanni secret, and thus we the adventurer have to stop the telvanni secret from getting out to prevent the telvanni from being ruined.... Yada yada yada.
Nothing's changed in PvE either, that's the whole point, boo hoo, so we have "more" zones. Well guess what, they are the same. They haven't changed the chapter zone formula since summerset.
ZoS have said they wanted to move away from cataclysmic narratives and more geopolitical, what more geopolitical than Herma Mora getting his slimy tentacles on juicy telvanni secrets? I'm guessing that's what the underlying tones to the dungeons were, him ripping holes through time to find a good spot to start the search, and scriveners to find the info in which time to start looking.
"There's always an alien battle cruiser, or a corellian death ray, or an intergalactic plague that's about to wipe out life on this miserable little planet. The only way these people get on with their happy little lives is if they do not know about it."
To drive this point home, do you know what the "Illusion of Choice" is? It's a very powerful tool in a game developer's arsenal, they've been deploying it since what.....2016? The base game zones, those are all the same, just different textures. You're not doing anything differently in those zones that you wouldn't be doing in anyother, unless you're in the rift on x1na, in which case: May God have mercy on your soul.
The only exception is on the off years in between new projects for ESO like murkmire, wrothgar, Hew's Bane, Gold Coast. These places where designed to be small in nature with little to no extra content. Now you may argue: "Oh but what about the DB/TG dailies?" Alright I'll concede that, one point to you, but it's just one type of quest element created to satiate the player base in between chapter cycles. One they didn't bother changing too much, ie instead of not killing anyone, you gotta kill everyone.
Now, before you bring up the elephants in the room: Craglorn. Yes, at it's launch, Craglorn was for all intents and purposes supposed to be group endgame content. However, with recent years of constantly evolving DPS explosions, Craglorn has become 97% Solo-able, with the remaining 3% the Trials located within. Not any of the delves, WBs public dungeons, skyreach or spellscar instances require groups to complete. They'd be nice to have, but they're no longer required. So a solo-able zone like everyother zone, so it goes onto the stack of zones that share it's playability with the others.
And Tales of Tribute: Introduced with High Isle, it was flashy, grabbed eyes, and turned heads. And then it largely died, at least on x1na. Everyone I've spoken to about it, that have acces to it, says that it's cool, but they don't really play it. Those that want the rewards from tribute, like tapestries or misc mats are able to buy them. So they don't bother with playing it. So sure, another point to you,
So if your eyes glazed over at this dissertation I decided to write, here's the TL;DR synopsis again:
The large PvE zones aren't diferent than any other zone. They've been recycling the same zone elements since 2016 and are carbon copies of each other. Dungeons, trials, and solo arenas are the same, they just require different number of players to complete them.
P.s. To those that say the City/Sewers could do with a pvp leaderboard....
Trust me you do not want that. And here's why: the uber hardcore Cyro PvPers will descend on the city to kick you out of it. They will take what ever it is that lies at the top of that leaderboard and the six capture points that surround it and you will never touch it.
Its like kid a gets a new smartphone or tablet or Nintendo DS every 3 month and kid b got a PC, a playstation and an XBoX many years ago and now Kid A complains all smartphones/tablets are actually the same and when it gets new smartphone it actually gets nothing and demands Kid Bs playstation insteat of asking the parents to buy him a playstation INSTEAT of a smartphone/tablet.
Also if ZoS didnt changed their concept for years than probably because the concept works and not enaugh players complain.
If your main problem with PvP is that you get Xv1ed/zerged/killed alone by multiple players, than you are not the only one. Almost nobody likes getting killed outnumbered and the players who do it. Attacking on Sight when you outnumber the victim is not real/ competitive PvP but ganking/griefing and not what ESO PvP should look like. PvP players attacking PvE players 1v1 is not honorable, but attacking them Xv1 is ridiculous overkill, pitiful and extremely unfair/asozial.
Edited by Iriidius on April 22, 2023 2:42PM1 -
INM✭✭✭✭Are people here seriously trying to imply that PvE has less content because ZoS releases the same thing each year? As a mostly PvE player (But I don't mind to get my hands dirty in PvP), I must admit that I had much more fun in IC than in any other PvE zone in the game, precisely because it has a factor of unknown chaos and because death there has its price. Leave IC alone, not everything should be accessible to everyone.2
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Iriidius✭✭✭
spawn restrictions are stupid if every alliance has their own spawn anyways and you can get to each other spawn of your alliance by using ladder from your district to base than ladder from base to other district, you dont enter territory other alliances can enter and only have 2 annoying loading screens.xylena_lazarow wrote: »Remove spawn restrictions, bring back the endless Memorial brawl.
Cap telvar winnings based on how much you wager yourself.
The 33% tel var bonus per owned district also disencourages players off alliances that dont hold any district.Edited by Iriidius on April 22, 2023 5:13PM0 -
adriant1978✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭PvP'ers have little enough content already without taking the IC away from them.
That said, I do wish there was either a PvE instance or a way of flagging oneself as not participating in PvP purely for the purposes of doing the quests and seeing the story. This would of course need to be appropriately restricted with no AP, no Tel Var, no PvP set drops, no nothing that is supposed to be earned through PvP.
I've played the IC storyline exactly once, around when it was launched and everyone was doing it so there was strength in numbers, and unlike the completely missable "quests" in Cyrodiil proper I found it engaging and with interesting lore implications. I'd never dare try to go there and see the story again now though.Edited by adriant1978 on April 22, 2023 3:19PM2 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I'm fine with that, going up against someone with no interest or effort for PvP doesn't feel like PvP.adriant1978 wrote: »I do wish there was either a PvE instance or a way of flagging oneself as not participating in PvP purely for the purposes of doing the quests and seeing the story.PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭adriant1978 wrote: »PvP'ers have little enough content already without taking the IC away from them.
That said, I do wish there was either a PvE instance or a way of flagging oneself as not participating in PvP purely for the purposes of doing the quests and seeing the story. This would of course need to be appropriately restricted with no AP, no Tel Var, no PvP set drops, no nothing that is supposed to be earned through PvP.
I've played the IC storyline exactly once, around when it was launched and everyone was doing it so there was strength in numbers, and unlike the completely missable "quests" in Cyrodiil proper I found it engaging and with interesting lore implications. I'd never dare try to go there and see the story again now though.
That's the one version of a PVE Imperial City I support. Story Mode only, no rewards (no fish, no skyshards, no nothing, just quests).
I really enjoyed the quests (which I ran on a PVE-character, though I know how to PVP). And I think it's a shame that lots of players won't see it because they don't want to risk PVP.4 -
KiltMaster✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »adriant1978 wrote: »PvP'ers have little enough content already without taking the IC away from them.
That said, I do wish there was either a PvE instance or a way of flagging oneself as not participating in PvP purely for the purposes of doing the quests and seeing the story. This would of course need to be appropriately restricted with no AP, no Tel Var, no PvP set drops, no nothing that is supposed to be earned through PvP.
I've played the IC storyline exactly once, around when it was launched and everyone was doing it so there was strength in numbers, and unlike the completely missable "quests" in Cyrodiil proper I found it engaging and with interesting lore implications. I'd never dare try to go there and see the story again now though.
That's the one version of a PVE Imperial City I support. Story Mode only, no rewards (no fish, no skyshards, no nothing, just quests).
I really enjoyed the quests (which I ran on a PVE-character, though I know how to PVP). And I think it's a shame that lots of players won't see it because they don't want to risk PVP.
I think that actually sounds fair. Do your quest - if you want skyshards or fish, you have to risk a little danger.PC/NA
GM of "Kilts for Sale"
Ebonheart Pact
He/Him3 -
AndreNoir✭✭✭Lord_Archaic wrote: »
So you trying to casually farm tel vars in IC and some evil nightblade kill you?Lord_Archaic wrote: »The only ones that actively want it kept around are PKers and griefers.
[snip]
I couldn't care less about telvar, whether is telvar or AP isn't the issue. The issue is mixing PvE and PvP, always has been. And let's be frank, the rewards for the telvar....not that great. Oooh a daedra skin, or a scamp.....I got 10 of those.....
[edited to remove quote]
Can you write then what did you lost in IC ? If you did quest line there is nothing to do for you0 -
aetherix8Soul ShrivenClearly MYM is approaching and the every year "please give us PvE only IC and Cyro" are popping up.
Please keep them as they are. PvPvE works great.
And although I understand the PvEers who are afraid of going to those areas because of some mean nightblades waiting to oneshot them at every quest spot (which isn't really true, most people have better things to do than camp forever in one place), I'm strongly against even the version where players can flag themselves PvE only and quest in peace but miss on all the rewards, mainly tel vars.
Creating a PvE only version of IC, even while maintaining a PvP version all along, would totally crash tel var value.
But more importantly, most PvE players would never get a chance of experiencing PvP in this game. I only discovered this aspect of the game because I was "forced" to take part to earn event tickets. To my surprise, I actually liked it, especially in Cyrodiil.
Obviously if I had a choice I would have never tried the PvP version and so I would have never discovered that in fact I like it very much even if I'm not that good at it. I know from reading the forums that there are other players like me, who would have never realized they like PvP if they were not "forced" to participate in it.
For this reason, keep it as it is because this way it allows players to try it and maybe discover that they actually enjoy it.3 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »adriant1978 wrote: »PvP'ers have little enough content already without taking the IC away from them.
That said, I do wish there was either a PvE instance or a way of flagging oneself as not participating in PvP purely for the purposes of doing the quests and seeing the story. This would of course need to be appropriately restricted with no AP, no Tel Var, no PvP set drops, no nothing that is supposed to be earned through PvP.
I've played the IC storyline exactly once, around when it was launched and everyone was doing it so there was strength in numbers, and unlike the completely missable "quests" in Cyrodiil proper I found it engaging and with interesting lore implications. I'd never dare try to go there and see the story again now though.
That's the one version of a PVE Imperial City I support. Story Mode only, no rewards (no fish, no skyshards, no nothing, just quests).
I really enjoyed the quests (which I ran on a PVE-character, though I know how to PVP). And I think it's a shame that lots of players won't see it because they don't want to risk PVP.
how would you get around the fact the quests themselves offer tel var coffers as rewards? you get about 2-3k tel var just doing the story quests (1k for the last quest, about 500 per other quest)
not to mention a "story" mode zone with no rewards would be even more dead than the regular zone, so dead in fact that it might not even be worth the server resources to spin up the instance1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »adriant1978 wrote: »PvP'ers have little enough content already without taking the IC away from them.
That said, I do wish there was either a PvE instance or a way of flagging oneself as not participating in PvP purely for the purposes of doing the quests and seeing the story. This would of course need to be appropriately restricted with no AP, no Tel Var, no PvP set drops, no nothing that is supposed to be earned through PvP.
I've played the IC storyline exactly once, around when it was launched and everyone was doing it so there was strength in numbers, and unlike the completely missable "quests" in Cyrodiil proper I found it engaging and with interesting lore implications. I'd never dare try to go there and see the story again now though.
That's the one version of a PVE Imperial City I support. Story Mode only, no rewards (no fish, no skyshards, no nothing, just quests).
I really enjoyed the quests (which I ran on a PVE-character, though I know how to PVP). And I think it's a shame that lots of players won't see it because they don't want to risk PVP.
how would you get around the fact the quests themselves offer tel var coffers as rewards? you get about 2-3k tel var just doing the story quests (1k for the last quest, about 500 per other quest)
not to mention a "story" mode zone with no rewards would be even more dead than the regular zone, so dead in fact that it might not even be worth the server resources to spin up the instance
You act like its impossible to remove the quest rewards when ZOS would already be removing the PVP flags and all the other rewards from the rest of the content in a completely rewardless story mode.
If you can't buy that, why would you think its impossible that ZOS couldn't simply replace the Tel Var with an equivalent gold amount for a PVE quest?
And if a completely rewardless story mode isn't going to attract enough players who just want to do the quests for the story alone, then it really just goes to show that the majority of the people asking for this are only really looking for the rewards of the zone with none of the intended, designed risk of PVP. They don't care about the story. They want the Tel Var, the keys, the fish, the skyshards, the helms, and of course, the event tickets with zero risk.
I'm willing to compromise for players who really want to experience the story without having to risk PvPvE because the Elder Scrolls is a traditionally PVE, story focused franchise.
I'm not willing to compromise with players who just want to get the rewards of a PvPvE MMO zone without playing how the Devs intended.2 -
kringled_1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Technically the tel var quest rewards don't have any loss risk anyways. They are given to you as coffers (which you can't lose), and all quests are turned in at the base where you can bank immediately if you so choose.1 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Necrotech_Master wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »adriant1978 wrote: »PvP'ers have little enough content already without taking the IC away from them.
That said, I do wish there was either a PvE instance or a way of flagging oneself as not participating in PvP purely for the purposes of doing the quests and seeing the story. This would of course need to be appropriately restricted with no AP, no Tel Var, no PvP set drops, no nothing that is supposed to be earned through PvP.
I've played the IC storyline exactly once, around when it was launched and everyone was doing it so there was strength in numbers, and unlike the completely missable "quests" in Cyrodiil proper I found it engaging and with interesting lore implications. I'd never dare try to go there and see the story again now though.
That's the one version of a PVE Imperial City I support. Story Mode only, no rewards (no fish, no skyshards, no nothing, just quests).
I really enjoyed the quests (which I ran on a PVE-character, though I know how to PVP). And I think it's a shame that lots of players won't see it because they don't want to risk PVP.
how would you get around the fact the quests themselves offer tel var coffers as rewards? you get about 2-3k tel var just doing the story quests (1k for the last quest, about 500 per other quest)
not to mention a "story" mode zone with no rewards would be even more dead than the regular zone, so dead in fact that it might not even be worth the server resources to spin up the instance
You act like its impossible to remove the quest rewards when ZOS would already be removing the PVP flags and all the other rewards from the rest of the content in a completely rewardless story mode.
If you can't buy that, why would you think its impossible that ZOS couldn't simply replace the Tel Var with an equivalent gold amount for a PVE quest?
And if a completely rewardless story mode isn't going to attract enough players who just want to do the quests for the story alone, then it really just goes to show that the majority of the people asking for this are only really looking for the rewards of the zone with none of the intended, designed risk of PVP. They don't care about the story. They want the Tel Var, the keys, the fish, the skyshards, the helms, and of course, the event tickets with zero risk.
I'm willing to compromise for players who really want to experience the story without having to risk PvPvE because the Elder Scrolls is a traditionally PVE, story focused franchise.
I'm not willing to compromise with players who just want to get the rewards of a PvPvE MMO zone without playing how the Devs intended.
im not saying they cant, im saying they wont because of the amount of effort to make a zone thats going to be 99% dead most of the time if theres effectively enemies that you have to fight through that offer nothing, and virtually no reason to even do the quests more than once if they dont give rewards
i would be questioning even spending the resources on a zone nobody is going to stay in, if it was released as pve with no rewards, it would probably be very busy the day of release and maybe a couple days after then absolutely dead the rest of the time
i certainly would never go into that instance ever if there were no rewards0