Please Help Me Optimize My Time In-Game

JimFord047

Zodiarkslayer

Be as Blunt as you want!!


First off I only ever hit the target (Dummy / NPC / Player) ONE WAY, Just to make sure I am not Confusing you, I will Explain HOW I Hit things with a Lightning staff - Possibly you are correct , and I do not understand the difference between a Lighht and Heavy Attack, and I am doing it wrong, and getting the wrong results as the effect.

1. Find the Target
2. Line up the + on the target (sometimes left, sometimes right, sometimes nowhere near the target -depends on the day if the cross actually works or not!)
3. Press the left mouse button down, and hold it down
4. the staff fires a long burst, stops , and then repeats another long burst, stops... and so on
5. if Dual Wield then exact same, result a Long drawn out attack

Now Possibly this is the light attack! and what I should be doing is tapping the mouse button cancelling the attack and reinitiating the attack , meaning 1 hit per second rather than the long 3-4 second attack. I find that the long attack produces MORE Damage , Hence i think that is the heavy attack!!!

Please tell me which one is the heavy attack? As You are correct, in both the damage will be reduced naturally and by the capping. I was / Am aware of the capping - but it did not worry me as i do not do Light attacks (waiting for your answer to tell me if I am understanding heavy attack), and My damage does not hit the limits in any case!

An Establish standard , therefor would be either in the UK a B.S or internationally and ISO notation, with a set of Specific Guidelines, supported by documentation, any alterations to the standard is not incorrect but only has to be supported with an addendum to the written and registered standard - Your Established standard is not fully documented , has No Addendums , and is a general consensus amongst those that can afford to buy that particular dummy.

For Testing on a Computer / Computer Network / Destructive or Non Destructive Materials Testing , there are many ways, however the basis is quite simple. Set Down a list of Control Parameters , then every alteration shows a difference to the control figures. Every set number of Tests, return everything back to the control and look for a variance. if there are no outlying factors, then the results you get 10 minutes in - 30 minutes in - 55 minutes in should always return the exact same figures as the control results -And they do - (white piece of paper photographed on my desk above, the character can be returned to any state listed, even now , and return the exact same results. that is testing in a controlled environment) unless you want to argue my education / experience with Quality Control Engineering????


So as to "Simply hitting the dummy and writing down the numbers", well basically YES!!! how else do you get the numbers??

But I am not hitting the dummy once - I am Killing the dummy 10 Times each and every time, The Highest Critical hit on each pass is recorded as is the Highest NON Critical - if you get the same figures each and every time then that's the Damage you are doing each and every time!

For A Person that claims to Read Thoroughly, You appear to have NOT READ THIS, other people mention DPS - I have referenced DPS as in player roles in a dungeon - However My Problem was and continues to Be the Damage Produced !!! I have yet to mention my DPS!!

I am Using Combat Metrics and a couple of others , as well as the normal Zenimax Damage around the target , but as i think i have said before they are all different, therefore I only use the damage around the Target as the reference as that's visible ALL the time, and based upon s standardised calculation built into the game, so for Conformity - its the best one

I would argue irrelevance on your "all about Damage Per Second, and not damage per hit", as you cannot have one without the other. the get a HIGH DPS you need to have high Hits , your Established Method is an average of All High and Low Hits over whatever length of time it takes to kill the 21M Dummy , my more simplified method of is Just Upper Values only .

explanation

character only - no CP's - No Buffs - No Armour - but the staff you will use thought-out the test = High Crit of 2751every 5th Hit, otherwise a high Normal Hit of 1531 that's 5 seconds of 2751+1531+1531+1531+1531 = 8875, is an average of 1775 per second. On a Dummy of 21,000,000 that would take you 21,000,000 / 1775 = 11,830.99 seconds or 197.183 minutes or 3 Hours 29 minutes to kill the dummy. Probably MORE, as there are hits under the maximums , and you would really have to be either soft in the head or very dedicated to spend that amount of time on something that is Very obviously not doing that much damage.

So as a GOOD example, of ignore ALL of the figures just go by the time it takes and what you see!!

Yesterday I am in a Dungeon a now lvl 1801 , with 3 Low Levels (28 - 36 - 156) I am not even going to have a dig at the lvl 28 Tank - in Red Mountain Armour - with a Bow who ran away from the bosses , nor the lvl 36 also with a Bow and unfathomable Darkness Armour who tried to stay well out the road... I was a Templar build , Wearing leaching plate - vengeance leech - oakensoul - Magna Incarnate (All Gold Legendry / Ultimate) [ as Full disclosure 22 magica / 20 Health / 22 Stamina - slotted CP's 50 on fighting Finesse, 50 on Wrathful, 50 on Weapons Expert, 50 on Deadly Aim, All the subs maxed out , 50 on Biting Aura Not Slotted, also 50 on Bastion Slotted , I had forgotten to switch to the Healer Profile!]- strikes as the healer, pretty Bullet Proof - now acting as the TANK as well. the 3 of them were taking on the First Boss I was Dealing with an ADD (AN - One - Singular) they killed the boss, the other adds and then the 2 handed great sword lvl 156 came up and killed the add that I was dealing with , in one hit (ok I had managed to get 50% of it's Life down, so I softened it up for them ) I did MORE damage Bashing than actually shooting!!!

It does not matter WHAT DUMMY says what - or I should have done more than 9K damage and should have done WAY MORE than the low levels

Switching to another Account - Exact Same Setup - destruction staff only lvl 39, Nothing lvl 50 , 2 hits killed everything, Hits coming back between 22K & 48K , Which one is wrong???

So Simply Put.... Being Blunt!!!

the Comparability is the exact same Target Dummy Every Time (same results every time - even returning to original setups, on a target dummy or an NPC in a Dungeon or out in the wild, what was the highest critical you on your own can you hit? NOT DPS Just the Highest crit / non-crit (or do you not pay attention or do you not have the zenimax damage output enabled) I am Using the built in tools - therefor a Standard to everyone and not an addon that no one has heard of or not everyone has , thats FULLY COMPARABLE!!

I have Shared the methodology (and Notes) explanations setups and results , made it clear that I am Looking at Highest critical and non critical damage Not DPS (4 Combat metric type add-ons = 4 different results, which one is correct?? or are you basing your results on the ONE that you Use, that is different from hundreds of other players, they are all wrong, you are correct, and built in meters do not count!!)

I Would also like to point out that Combat metrics is an irrelevant tool - Go into a Dungeon, you get to the area First , you Kill all 30 adds there 100% , only Boss is left , other 3 arrive All Squishy , they are hammering into the boss, your going 100 > 90 >80 , but every time the boss hits out they all take damage , you heal them (stopping hitting the boss ) 50 > 40 >20 , More healing 10 > 7% Boss is dead at the end You do 7% the Tank does 13% and both DPS's do 40% Each . but say I do not heal them lol, they all die on the Second Boss Hit, I keep hitting the boss and it dies , eventually, Combat metric shows Me having done 94% of the damage! Its Not Wrong as such, but pretty inaccurate!!! My DPS would still be the highest out of All.

My Zenimax Standardised way of looking at it I do 9000 highest critical hit , tank Does 16,000 Highest Critical Hit, Both DPS's are hitting 60K each, worst damage in the dungeon is me, irrelevant of how many hits per second, the DPS are hitting Hardest (whilst alive , which is generally not very long without a Tank & a healer!)

And as Final nail in your Theory Coffin, the Character that cannot hit about 16,480 playing in the wild or in a dungeon, Hits the 21M dummy in the Beam Me up Guild house for 64K+ damage on a regular basis without the Armour effects kicking in, as it does not move or hit back!!!


But thank you for your contribution never the less

Jim

ixthUA

Are you accounting bosses damage resistance? Tank should be the one to partially remove it, the rest comes from light armor.
Healer is supposed to buff team damage. I buff my team with 930 spell damage and some magicka.
Critical damage is capped at 225% of non-crit attack, need to reach at least 205%. War horn gives 20% critical boost for only 10 sec, its not reliable in dungeons.

VaranisArano

JimFord047 wrote: »

And as Final nail in your Theory Coffin, the Character that cannot hit about 16,480 playing in the wild or in a dungeon, Hits the 21M dummy in the Beam Me up Guild house for 64K+ damage on a regular basis without the Armour effects kicking in, as it does not move or hit back!!!

If you didn't know, the 21M dummy comes with the buffs and debuffs of a full trials group, so it's substantially inflated compared to the results you'd be seeing in a group dungeon. That's why the number is so high on the dummy but you'll never see it in the wild or in a dungeon.

The main reason to use the 21M dummy is to compare your to Damage per second (DPS) to that of other players or your other accounts by killing the dummy as fast as you sustainably can.

Because it's an inflated value, it's not going to tell you what you can do in a dungeon. However, because it's inflated to a measurable standard, you can directly compare your numbers to everyone else who uses the 21M dummy (which is pretty much everyone who does endgame PVE.) But note that DPS is the standard to compare, not individual hits.

Sure, DPS is made up of a string of individual hits, but when the boss health gets up into the millions, each individual hit is less important than the whole. I have PVP characters who hit very hard and are able to kill NPCs in a couple of hits. But they cannot sustain that for the whole boss fight so their overall DPS on a test dummy is fairly low. Meanwhile, my PVE Damage Dealer uses a lot of damage over time (DOT) skills so her individual hits are fairly low but the DOT damage stacks up with her spammable skills to produce high, sustainable DPS over a long encounter.

Zodiarkslayer

@JimFord047 Hi Jim
Please calm down. Please stop lashing out. I am genuinely trying to help. And that sometimes means getting one to accept that there is a factor, previously unconsidered.
When I say I understand your frustration, I mean it. I have an infection in the right eye at the moment and have to wear a patch over it. You can consider me temporarily 50% blind, if you want. 😅
I cannot play any combat related activity right now. I cannot imagine how you are doing it at 80% blindness. So, cudos for that.

I cannot speak for others on the forum, but I have had increasing problems following your post's narrative and line of argumentation.
I never heard of items disappearing from inventory. What technical problems ESO has is usually related to bad internet connection.
And the low crit damge is proof of your account being damaged? This is highly unlikely.

Also personally speaking, if I were to do something substantially different than almost everybody else and I am having problems as a result that almost everybody else hasn't, I would take great care to explain to everybody else why I do something substantially different. And I would also try to write it down in a way that they understand it by providing as much relevant information as possible and especially as much context as is necessary.
Continuing to speak from personal experience, I have learned not to dismiss an offer of help, however bluntly delivered. Actually, those offers were some the most helpful, because they got me out of the rabbit holes I unknowingly jumped into.

And apparently, being blunt has yielded some previously unmentioned, but relevant information, now.
For example, 64k dps is number we can work with. It's not high end, but it's good. Considering the 80% blindness, I'd say its even great!
And your dismissal of DPS as a measure and the argumentation behind it gives us an opening for a good discussion.

So lets have it. A good discussion.

To start I want you to please understand that some seemingly random numbers, labelled critical hits and normal hits, do neither measure the strength of your build, nor your own personal proficiency to utilize said build. And that was the problem with your many numbers, that you wrote down. They don't say anything more than something critically hits and something is normal and you are somehow dissatisfied with that.
Also, how high the critical hit of an unspecified ability is over a fight of say maybe 326 (21kk/64k) seconds (or light attack or heavy attack), says little about what happens in the other 325s of that fight. There might've just been a damage spike, where all buffs, debuffs and the RnG coincided. Or every hit is exactly the same, I don't know. I do not know what you are doing to get these results, because you didn't write them down or how everything is supposed to be connected.
It is just not a good measure for a builds strength. For its potential maybe.

That is why Dummy parsing is the standard. It eliminates almost all external influencing factors like game mechanics, need for repositioning and movement, uptime of buffs and uptime of debuffs, just to name the most important. It also flattens out the influence of RNG over the entire fight time.
That makes the strength of the build and the player's proficiency the pretty much only influencing factors left. And they can be quickly measured by just one number that represents everything. Which is doubly important if you want feedback, or just to learn where you stand.

To clear up possible misunderstandings, I will talk about what a build is considered next. Or rather what I consider is a build.
A build is not just the name of the gear you are using. That is only one part of it. It is mainly the abilities that are on your two ability bars. You are correct in that on the internet and especially on YouTube there is an eclatant misrepresentation of this fact. Among most players, the three commonly agreed upon highest influencing factors on damage are:
Rotation, Rotation and Rotation. In that order. 😉

And this is the point in the conversation where more information needs to be provided by you. Since you haven't dropped any ability name so far (It is a tough read really, so please excuse me if I am wrong), am I correct to assume that you do not use abilities? At all? Or do you?

And what are your stats? Max stats, Weapon Damage, Crit chance? All those numbers you wrote down and nowhere does it say how high your nominal critical damage multiplier is. Or how many bonuses to it you have incorporated into your build.

Because that is what I wanted to find out when I previously talked about my guess of light or heavy attacks. Not to insult you, but to get you to reveal more information.

Why is it relevant? Just a quick example.
You said earlier you used a Templar, once. And oakensoul. So here are two critical infos. Oakensoul provides a buff of 10% to critical damage in the form of minor force. And Templars have a passive called piercing spear that gives them another 10% to crit damage whenever they have an aedric spear ability slotted.
So, did you? Did you have one slotted while conducting your experiments or not? Did the rate between your normal hits and crit hits stay the same for the Templar or compared to other classes and races that you might've used or did it not?
And if you were aware of that, why didn't you include that in your statement, when you shared your numbers?
That is what I mean with methodology.

And while being at it, comparability means that other players can understand and recreate your results.
Sharing the same methodology so that results can be reliably compared to each other.
In the case of the ESO PC community it means that everyone uses the 21million Trial Dummy and the Addon Combat Metrics (CMX) for full parses.
And so, in sharing these dummy parses and the way we all got them, we can all become better players, by learning from each other.

@JimFord047 I hope I didn't offend unintentionally. And I hope we can identify the source of your dismay by means of discussion. And maybe talk about what you can do, to have a better experience.

Thank you for reading to the end.

JimFord047

@Zodiarkslayer

Hi, Sorry for not getting back, I get what your saying . and although I had covered a lot of it in the various posts, I understand where your coming from. If I had done this as an after action report or and engineering report then everything would have a reference point back the way...

PS Sorry if it came over wrong - the input was appreciated , but I was in pain - tired - Frustrated but you took the time to reply and I wanted to give a hurried but as full as I could answer in return!


So here we go, this is off of the top of my head as ESO is down for maint right now!

I do not Use Buffs with the exception of the Sugar Skulls or the fish pasty with melon sauce - and that's only for the extra life / stamina / magica

this issue is over ALL my toons, Dragon Knight / Templar / Necro / Warden / Sorcerer / Night blade basically every one except the Arcanist excluding this as its PTS account only (and i wanted a nosey into what's coming)

they are all in mixes of All types of armour and inn the majority ALL have oakensoul rings , but do not all wear them.. role specific you could say.

So here is the "theory" behind the testing...

NO Abilities used - only Heavy Hits

the CRIT and the NORMAL hit results that I wrote down, were several runs on the target (the dummy you make up in clockwork city) the Highest CRIT value and the Highest Normal Value of 6 runs was noted down. changes made and re run.

the reason for the dummy was "II have it!" , therefor the same circumstances could be replicated every time - simple 101 on testing

So the notes were the result of the testing .


I understand that I am NOT doing things that COULD boost the damage, for example dropping the Dragon Knights Talons down then hitting with a Flame Whip + another couple can add 4,000 onto the damage. This is not being Awkward, this is down to Physical Disabilities on top of the blindness lol , its not that I do not want to, its that I cannot!!! if I move My arm 3" forward I dislocate my Shoulder - 3" back I dislocate my shoulder - Scratch My Arse (yep you got it, dislocate my shoulder), I have not had any feeling in my right Arm since 15 minutes after the fist plane Hit the Twin Towers! in the majority of times I do not know where my hand / arm is, used to be I could see it - now not so much.

I am Aware of My physical Limitations , Does not stop me pushing them, But there are things I accept that I cannot do, so mixing abilities with hit patterns buffing and de-buffing is simply NO!!

I am Left with heavy Hits Only, the game has evolved and I am devolving a little each day , but after near enough 10 years of playing, I do know simple Heavy Hits on a lightning staff are not what they were.


So what the question Should be is "how do i get the best damage for Heavy Hits Only - No Buffs or Abilities Used! " Because that's How I play - the only way I can play!


Example 1

Dragon Knight - JourneyKins (named for my sister in law)

Does on the Practice Dummy 26K (crit) every Second Hit 12K (normal) every other

All CP's Max Level ie Subs and slotted Fighting Finesse - Weapons Expert - wrathful Strikes - deadly Aim - master at arms (one left off depending on what's better)

Mundus is the Thief
Light Armour All Legendry Divines magika Enchantments
Graven Deep Light Set + The light set that requires 9 traits made in Elswhere (cannot remember the name of it right now)
2 Jewels Triune + Weapon & Spell Damage
Oakensoul Ring Bloodthirsty
Lightning staff Nirnhoned prismatic enchantment



Example 2

Sorcerer - Andy Rae Ah (named for an ex-Us Navy friend Andrea)

Does on the Practice Dummy 19K (crit) every Second Hit 10K (normal) every other

All CP's Max Level ie Subs and slotted Fighting Finesse - Focused Mending - Swift Renewal - Soothing Tide - master at arms (one left off depending on what's better)

Mundus Stones the Ritual and the Shadow

Heavy Armour All Epic Divines health Enchantments
Twice Born + leeching plate
2 jewels Triune + magika recovery
Oakensoul Infused
Lightning staff Nirnhoned prismatic enchantment

for damage 1 seems better, for surviving 2 seems better, as it is in a dungeon 1 dies rapidly with 6k-8k damage , 2 is very survivable doing 10k - 16K damage. ie just better all round than the light armour

LOL I have a couple of Armour Setups that Allow me to do most Dungeons Solo , and the Armour does more damage than the weapon, last time I did Selene's web , I killed her without firing the staff once!!!

I know that playing as the Healer I do not have to do damage - my Jobs to Heal and revive, but I feel Guilty NOT doing My share of the work killing things. and that's the crux , I do not seem to be doing any justifiable damage and with the effort that I put in, its frustrating the hell out of me

Necrotech_Master

TaSheen wrote: »

Most normal players (leaving the top 1-2% out of consideration) don't have the identical amount of damage in dungeons/trials/arenas that they can produce on dummies. Dummies buff you; dummies stand still; dummies don't fight back.

I can (with Oakensoul and light attack weaving only on one bar of course) hit about 50k on the dummy at my house (can't remember what it's called or how much hp it has - not in game right now - it's one we got in nested gift boxes for something years back) but in actual combat I don't get more than half that due to needing to move mostly.

And yes, low damage, even with Oakensoul because my only connection is high ping satellite, and I'm in my mid-70s with not great reflexes any more. Still it's better by far that what I was getting prior to Oakensoul.... and I really struggle with twitchy combat which is what this game provides.

50k dps on a 6 mil dummy is actually incredibly high, thats like over 100k on the trial dummy (the dummies we got from the russian nesting boxes is 6 mil, which dont provide any buffs for the player)

JimFord047

So Obviously I am still Here... and still trying to get my little Dudes to do damage.... Which they do not!! Still !

So I had a Subtle Plan , A Friend who does Insane amounts of damage all the time , flies through Group Dungeons Solo, came over to stay here for a week.

The plan Being that instead of giving me advice on How to improve the character he would just sit in front of My computer and fully set it up!!

So Obviously, given the above, I had said that I tried everything and still no good results. But Everyone thinks that "Nope, Hes Not Done this Or That" , "it's Him!! Not the game / Account"

So he is here, and asks if I have any Transmute Crystals , because its the quickest way to get the gear... "WTF!" when he notices that I have 1000 Crystals on the account and every little toon (18 of them) is carrying about 45 Geodes.

So the Shopping list, HIS GEAR that his toon is wearing, .... OOPS, No need to transmute , a couple are already wearing the exact set's . all legendry . But his toon is a Sorc, so we kit out one of mines with his exact gear...

Next the Character Setup - I have all of the Champion points he has (and More, Lvl 2167, got lots), this now exactly matches his.


So Off I go, and the damage is good, but not Great - a Couple of DAYS, messing about and he finally says, let me try...

He takes over my computer, with My Sorc, (after checking its exact in every detail to his) and he tries the dummy... NOWHERE NEAR HIS, off to a dungeon , once again NOWHERE NEAR HIS, So the Normal USER Reaction kicks in, "its got to be Your Computer! (computer Network Consultant me,,, OK If you say so! But NO)

He has the exact same results with his Sorc on an Apple MacBook Pro, than on his computer at home... he is now sitting in front of a Computer Engineers Gaming Machine - ie Overkill On steroids! Liquid Cooled AMD 7950x overclocked , 64GB High Speed DDR5 RAM , 4 Max Performance M.2 SSD's , Full Gaming Motherboard, RTX Graphics... (next "Job" for me is to build him one the same! He was a Tad impressed 4 Different Games play at the same time not even stressing it out)

So He is now Logged into mines , as Him, His Sorc, and he is now doing the exact same damage as he always does,,,,,,,


Now I decide to Blow His Mind, Drop Everything down to EPIC from Legendry , everything else the same, and the damage Went UP, still nowhere near his, but closer.


Later on the next day , we are on Discord with an other friend, "So Have you fixed Jim's Character?" .... "Nope, Tried everything , Something is [snip] UP"


Does not help me... But .... At least it's Not only ME!!!

[edited for profanity bypass]

Zodiarkslayer

Your Story is getting weirder...

I had something not unsimilar a couple o' years back. My Sorc once tanked a lot of dungeons. And after I respecced her back to damage dealing, she was still as slow as if she was wearing 5 pieces of heavy armor.

I used to measure the time for doing daily writs, becayse I wanted to know where I should do them. And so I noticed that the Sorcerer took about 15s longer than my other charcters, under the same circumstances (identical set pieces, buffs and CPs).

It was suddenly gone after a patch sometime during the High Isle season. But I don't remember which one exactly.

boi_anachronism_

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Most normal players (leaving the top 1-2% out of consideration) don't have the identical amount of damage in dungeons/trials/arenas that they can produce on dummies. Dummies buff you; dummies stand still; dummies don't fight back.

I can (with Oakensoul and light attack weaving only on one bar of course) hit about 50k on the dummy at my house (can't remember what it's called or how much hp it has - not in game right now - it's one we got in nested gift boxes for something years back) but in actual combat I don't get more than half that due to needing to move mostly.

And yes, low damage, even with Oakensoul because my only connection is high ping satellite, and I'm in my mid-70s with not great reflexes any more. Still it's better by far that what I was getting prior to Oakensoul.... and I really struggle with twitchy combat which is what this game provides.

50k dps on a 6 mil dummy is actually incredibly high, thats like over 100k on the trial dummy (the dummies we got from the russian nesting boxes is 6 mil, which dont provide any buffs for the player)

Yeah thats about where i am 114k ish on 21m, 50k on 6m. 6m is best for 4man or solo players. You can only go up from those number since you may get a secondary buff from a tank or a healer that you wouldn't on a 6m.

VaranisArano

Huh.

I don't have a solution to offer, but I salute your ability to eliminate most of the variables.

boi_anachronism_

Ok honestly... this sounds like a problem for tech support..