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Sorcerer and Maximum Magicka Scaling
ilawana
✭✭
Hello everyone.
I have been playing this game for over 6 years now and the majority of my time has been spent playing magicka sorcerer in pvp. As someone who has spent pretty much their entire ESO life as a magsorc, I can confidently say that magsorc is struggling more than ever. I find myself actively avoiding my sorcerer due to the way it has been performing. The defense is significantly worse than other classes, the skills and their morphs are inferior to most other class skills, and now even streak has been made almost useless with the mistform change. Magsorc has almost nothing going for it at the moment, and it has become an extremely frustrating gameplay experience.
Currently, my magsorc is running a good old-fashioned max mag setup. I am built around the idea of keeping damage shields up while using positioning to avoid incoming damage. In my opinion, this is the type of build that should really make magsorc shine; but it doesn't. Most of the time I find myself struggling to keep any of my shields up due to damage being so high, continuing to struggle with an extreme lack of healing power, my attempts to reposition with streak are often failed attempts now that mistform is streak 2.0, and I am struggling to keep any significant amount of damage pressure on most enemies. Now, I could certainly build a meta proc setup that would work just fine on my sorcerer, and I would probably have more success that way. However, after some testing, I don't think that is the biggest issue. A sorcerer with a meta setup is still going to be worse than a dk with a meta setup or a warden with a meta setup. So, I decided to log into the pts and do some simple testing that really shows some of the problems that sorcerer has.
I threw together a few characters in the pts: a sorc, a dk, and a warden. The dk and warden have the same exact build, 5 mara's, 5 rallying cry, 1 sea-serpent's coil, and 1 balorgh. They both had 3 heavy, 1 medium, and 3 light, 3 infused spell damage glyphs on the jewelry, tri-stat glyphs on all of the armor, 2 reinforced, 1 infused, and 4 impen. (Obviously not a setup for the live server, but this was just for some testing.) The sorcerer had 5 mara's, 5 crafty alfiq, 1 death dealers fete, and 1 domihaus. Same traits and enchants, except the jewels were arcane. In summary, same build on all 3 characters, except the sorcerer had max mag where the other two had spell damage. Here are some screenshots of the results.
Coagulating blood has a reasonable tooltip of 13k (this gets cut in half in pvp, so the tooltip is actually 6.5k, or 7.5k with the burning heart passive). Hardened ward has a tooltip of 9k. So, in regards to numbers, hardened ward is stronger. No. Coagulating blood increases based on missing health (up to 50%), this allows it to get a tooltip of up to 19.5k on this setup. Cut that in half and it has a tooltip as high as 9.7k. This can also crit making it significantly higher. It also adds major fortitude and increases healing received with the burning heart passive. Meanwhile, the sorcerer has a hardened ward that doesn't go above 9k, and it has no secondary effects from the skill itself or it's passives (it does proc rebate and daedric protection, but these are negligible. It should proc expert summoner, but it doesn't). Not to mention that if a sorc drops their shield for a second, they have little way to recover. Every other class can at least get a heal off and bring their health back up. Now let's look at the damage side of things.
Both of these abilities do damage twice, but deep fissure has a higher tooltip than curse (I switched the sorc to 2h here for the major berserk. A sorc will most likely not have access to in actual gameplay, making the tooltip more like 12k each tick). It also applies major and minor breach, is aoe, and costs less. Even with the major berserk on the sorc, the tooltip is still smaller than fissure, it is single target, and costs more than fissure. You could argue that deep fissure is easier to avoid because you can roll out of it easily, but I would argue that curse is just as easy to avoid with a simple purge (and as a matter of fact, it gets purged quite often).
So, what is the problem? For one, you can build stronger abilities with spell damage than max mag. In order for curse to reach the level of deep fissure, or for ward to reach the level of coagulating blood, you would have to build entirely into maximum magicka as I do on the live server. This means, you can't run a tank set or a damage proc, since you would have to run all max mag sets. Those building into spell damage can afford to run other, non-spell damage sets (such as mara's or procs like plaguebreak) without compromising their healing or damage too much, and what they do lose is made up for. If a sorcerer were to do that, they would lose all of their damage and defense. If a magsorc wears a tank set instead of a second max mag set, the defense they get won't make up for the smaller shield and heals. The second (and most glaring) issue is sorcerer's inferior skill effects. Ward is just ward. It doesn't offer anything else other than a damage shield. Every other class has something special attached to their burst heals. Coag gets bigger and offers health recovery, resistant flesh on the necro offers increased armor (and gets bigger via passives), healthy offering on the nightblade has minor mending. But hardened ward is just a ward (and doesn't even proc all of its passives). Then there are abilities like curse. Haunting curse deals damage twice, that's it. Nightblades get extra weapon and spell damage and heal on their spectral bow, dk gets major breach on noxious breath and a flat debuff on engulfing flames, deep fissure also deals damage twice with major and minor breach, but curse is just curse.
Now, I am not saying that sorcerer is bad in every way, and I'm not saying that it needs to be good at everything. However, there is a clear deficit with the sorcerer's toolkit. Many of their core abilities are outmatched by other classes. You could argue that crystal fragments is the best burst spammable in the game, but often dk has more burst with molten whip. You could argue that sorc has streak to get away from every melee class in the game, but I would say that mistform has almost completely ruined that. Sorc shouldn't be good at everything, but it should be good at what it does. If sorcerer is a single target burst damage class, then it should have single target burst damage that other classes don't (especially if those classes are dot focused classes). If sorcerer primary class defense is their damage shields, then it should have damage shields that rival the heals on other classes. If sorcerer is the master of movement and staying at range, then it should be able to do that. Between the scaling of abilities with max mag/stam and the poor morphs options on skills, sorcerer (especially magsorc) have become one of the worst and most frustrating classes to play in pvp.
So, what are my suggestions?
1. I would like to see some adjustments made to the way abilities scale off of max mag and max stam. There is no reason why someone building into max mag/stam should have to build into those stats entirely. Those building into spell damage can get away with one weapon/spell damage set, and some glyphs on jewels. Those building into max stats should be able to do the same.
2. I would certainly like to see a buff to hardened ward. The last buff (7% increase and higher health cap) was not enough. You still need to build entirely into maximum magicka to get a decently sized shield and the health cap is still limiting. Balancing health and magicka will still result in a shield smaller than the heals on other classes. Many people have suggested that it scale with spell damage, but I like the max mag style of sorcerer, and that's how it has been in every other elder scrolls game. Perhaps increase the scaling with max mag to put it on the same level as heals with spell damage, maybe it should create 2 shields instead of 1, maybe remove the health cap (damage has increased significantly since the health cap was added, so I'm not convinced it is still necessary). I'm not a game developer, so I don't know the answer. I do know that it needs some love.
3. I would like to see curse buffed. Many people think it needs some sort of enemy debuff or self-buff, but I agree with the combat development team that adding these cookie cutter effects to sorc's skills would be a bad move for sorc's class identity (I like that sorc is different from the other classes, that is why I play it). Sorc is one of the original damage classes, and I am more than happy with the idea of it remaining a damage focused class. However, if curse is going to remain a simple damage skill (without debuffs like breach) then it should have a higher damaging tooltip than other class variants, to make up for the lack of a debuff.
4. I would really like to see some more work done to mistform. Changing mistform into streak 2.0 has definitely hurt sorcerer, and I am concerned that it will also have a negative effect on the upcoming Arcanist class and their portal skill. Not to mention that the new mistform is awkward to use compared to the old mistform. The old mistform was a defense tool unique to vampires, and I appreciated that. The new changes have hurt vampires defense and uniqueness and has done the same to sorcerer.
There are other changes that I would like to see, but these are currently some of the biggest issues hurting the sorcerer right now. If sorcerer doesn't start to get some love, it will just continue to fall behind every other class in the game.
That's it. Sorry for the long post (first time posting here), but thank you to all who read this. I would really like to hear other people's thoughts on the matter. And hopefully this will help sorcerer's problems come to light.
Best,
ilawana
I have been playing this game for over 6 years now and the majority of my time has been spent playing magicka sorcerer in pvp. As someone who has spent pretty much their entire ESO life as a magsorc, I can confidently say that magsorc is struggling more than ever. I find myself actively avoiding my sorcerer due to the way it has been performing. The defense is significantly worse than other classes, the skills and their morphs are inferior to most other class skills, and now even streak has been made almost useless with the mistform change. Magsorc has almost nothing going for it at the moment, and it has become an extremely frustrating gameplay experience.
Currently, my magsorc is running a good old-fashioned max mag setup. I am built around the idea of keeping damage shields up while using positioning to avoid incoming damage. In my opinion, this is the type of build that should really make magsorc shine; but it doesn't. Most of the time I find myself struggling to keep any of my shields up due to damage being so high, continuing to struggle with an extreme lack of healing power, my attempts to reposition with streak are often failed attempts now that mistform is streak 2.0, and I am struggling to keep any significant amount of damage pressure on most enemies. Now, I could certainly build a meta proc setup that would work just fine on my sorcerer, and I would probably have more success that way. However, after some testing, I don't think that is the biggest issue. A sorcerer with a meta setup is still going to be worse than a dk with a meta setup or a warden with a meta setup. So, I decided to log into the pts and do some simple testing that really shows some of the problems that sorcerer has.
I threw together a few characters in the pts: a sorc, a dk, and a warden. The dk and warden have the same exact build, 5 mara's, 5 rallying cry, 1 sea-serpent's coil, and 1 balorgh. They both had 3 heavy, 1 medium, and 3 light, 3 infused spell damage glyphs on the jewelry, tri-stat glyphs on all of the armor, 2 reinforced, 1 infused, and 4 impen. (Obviously not a setup for the live server, but this was just for some testing.) The sorcerer had 5 mara's, 5 crafty alfiq, 1 death dealers fete, and 1 domihaus. Same traits and enchants, except the jewels were arcane. In summary, same build on all 3 characters, except the sorcerer had max mag where the other two had spell damage. Here are some screenshots of the results.
Coagulating blood has a reasonable tooltip of 13k (this gets cut in half in pvp, so the tooltip is actually 6.5k, or 7.5k with the burning heart passive). Hardened ward has a tooltip of 9k. So, in regards to numbers, hardened ward is stronger. No. Coagulating blood increases based on missing health (up to 50%), this allows it to get a tooltip of up to 19.5k on this setup. Cut that in half and it has a tooltip as high as 9.7k. This can also crit making it significantly higher. It also adds major fortitude and increases healing received with the burning heart passive. Meanwhile, the sorcerer has a hardened ward that doesn't go above 9k, and it has no secondary effects from the skill itself or it's passives (it does proc rebate and daedric protection, but these are negligible. It should proc expert summoner, but it doesn't). Not to mention that if a sorc drops their shield for a second, they have little way to recover. Every other class can at least get a heal off and bring their health back up. Now let's look at the damage side of things.
Both of these abilities do damage twice, but deep fissure has a higher tooltip than curse (I switched the sorc to 2h here for the major berserk. A sorc will most likely not have access to in actual gameplay, making the tooltip more like 12k each tick). It also applies major and minor breach, is aoe, and costs less. Even with the major berserk on the sorc, the tooltip is still smaller than fissure, it is single target, and costs more than fissure. You could argue that deep fissure is easier to avoid because you can roll out of it easily, but I would argue that curse is just as easy to avoid with a simple purge (and as a matter of fact, it gets purged quite often).
So, what is the problem? For one, you can build stronger abilities with spell damage than max mag. In order for curse to reach the level of deep fissure, or for ward to reach the level of coagulating blood, you would have to build entirely into maximum magicka as I do on the live server. This means, you can't run a tank set or a damage proc, since you would have to run all max mag sets. Those building into spell damage can afford to run other, non-spell damage sets (such as mara's or procs like plaguebreak) without compromising their healing or damage too much, and what they do lose is made up for. If a sorcerer were to do that, they would lose all of their damage and defense. If a magsorc wears a tank set instead of a second max mag set, the defense they get won't make up for the smaller shield and heals. The second (and most glaring) issue is sorcerer's inferior skill effects. Ward is just ward. It doesn't offer anything else other than a damage shield. Every other class has something special attached to their burst heals. Coag gets bigger and offers health recovery, resistant flesh on the necro offers increased armor (and gets bigger via passives), healthy offering on the nightblade has minor mending. But hardened ward is just a ward (and doesn't even proc all of its passives). Then there are abilities like curse. Haunting curse deals damage twice, that's it. Nightblades get extra weapon and spell damage and heal on their spectral bow, dk gets major breach on noxious breath and a flat debuff on engulfing flames, deep fissure also deals damage twice with major and minor breach, but curse is just curse.
Now, I am not saying that sorcerer is bad in every way, and I'm not saying that it needs to be good at everything. However, there is a clear deficit with the sorcerer's toolkit. Many of their core abilities are outmatched by other classes. You could argue that crystal fragments is the best burst spammable in the game, but often dk has more burst with molten whip. You could argue that sorc has streak to get away from every melee class in the game, but I would say that mistform has almost completely ruined that. Sorc shouldn't be good at everything, but it should be good at what it does. If sorcerer is a single target burst damage class, then it should have single target burst damage that other classes don't (especially if those classes are dot focused classes). If sorcerer primary class defense is their damage shields, then it should have damage shields that rival the heals on other classes. If sorcerer is the master of movement and staying at range, then it should be able to do that. Between the scaling of abilities with max mag/stam and the poor morphs options on skills, sorcerer (especially magsorc) have become one of the worst and most frustrating classes to play in pvp.
So, what are my suggestions?
1. I would like to see some adjustments made to the way abilities scale off of max mag and max stam. There is no reason why someone building into max mag/stam should have to build into those stats entirely. Those building into spell damage can get away with one weapon/spell damage set, and some glyphs on jewels. Those building into max stats should be able to do the same.
2. I would certainly like to see a buff to hardened ward. The last buff (7% increase and higher health cap) was not enough. You still need to build entirely into maximum magicka to get a decently sized shield and the health cap is still limiting. Balancing health and magicka will still result in a shield smaller than the heals on other classes. Many people have suggested that it scale with spell damage, but I like the max mag style of sorcerer, and that's how it has been in every other elder scrolls game. Perhaps increase the scaling with max mag to put it on the same level as heals with spell damage, maybe it should create 2 shields instead of 1, maybe remove the health cap (damage has increased significantly since the health cap was added, so I'm not convinced it is still necessary). I'm not a game developer, so I don't know the answer. I do know that it needs some love.
3. I would like to see curse buffed. Many people think it needs some sort of enemy debuff or self-buff, but I agree with the combat development team that adding these cookie cutter effects to sorc's skills would be a bad move for sorc's class identity (I like that sorc is different from the other classes, that is why I play it). Sorc is one of the original damage classes, and I am more than happy with the idea of it remaining a damage focused class. However, if curse is going to remain a simple damage skill (without debuffs like breach) then it should have a higher damaging tooltip than other class variants, to make up for the lack of a debuff.
4. I would really like to see some more work done to mistform. Changing mistform into streak 2.0 has definitely hurt sorcerer, and I am concerned that it will also have a negative effect on the upcoming Arcanist class and their portal skill. Not to mention that the new mistform is awkward to use compared to the old mistform. The old mistform was a defense tool unique to vampires, and I appreciated that. The new changes have hurt vampires defense and uniqueness and has done the same to sorcerer.
There are other changes that I would like to see, but these are currently some of the biggest issues hurting the sorcerer right now. If sorcerer doesn't start to get some love, it will just continue to fall behind every other class in the game.
That's it. Sorry for the long post (first time posting here), but thank you to all who read this. I would really like to hear other people's thoughts on the matter. And hopefully this will help sorcerer's problems come to light.
Best,
ilawana
5
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Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭i think its a bit apples to oranges trying to compare a dmg shield ability and a healing ability
the sorc shield, definitely needs some improvement, and i personally on my sorc usually use the empowered ward for the +recovery bonuses, but to compare it to a burst heal does not make sense since the shield is not healing, its entirely different effects
now if your comparing say dark conversion with coagulating blood, the sorc version is very obviously weaker (full 1 sec gcd cast time, fixed unscaled heal, but the benefit is sustain)
the main thing i dislike about the curse is that you can only have 1 active at a time, if you accidentally recast it early you lose the explosion (if recasting on the same target or another one)1 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I, alongside many others, tried to explain all of this to the devs basically since the U35 hard nerfs went through, with numerous long threads.
All we got from months of feedback and discussion, noting down pain points, providing comparisons and data, on what needed to be fixed, which resulted in a general consensus of:
- a proper reliable burst heal that's not interruptible or tied to a killable pet
- reworks to passives to update them
- lastly access to major prophecy/savagery to better tie in crit surge as the class HoT
The devs completely ignored all of that information, and gave us slightly bigger shields that also scale off max health (great for pve tanking, but a useless scaling change for everyone else) and 1 morph of the execute deals all of its bonus damage in AoE (not even a buff to when it starts scaling from, 20% threshold is laughably low)....
At this point, it seems that no-one on the team actually plays the class (or even cares about it) outside of roleplaying a zookeeper of daedric pets or hold left mouse button the class, because if they actually played the class or cared about how it's performing, they would have listened to the countless feedback threads provided by numerous long time sorcerer mains (of both pve and pvp) and actually implemented something closer to what was discussed instead of what they did, which has done nothing to fix the issues the class, and has only kept it in its awkward spot of run pets/HA for PvE and crutch on mara's + masters DW for PvP, the PvP option which is generic and performs the same, if not better, on the other classes...
What made it even worse, was the devs came out and responded to all the feedback with what was essentially: They think the class is fine and doesn't need any improvements. I.e. sorcerers can go <snip> themselves, they're not going to fix the class or even look at it for the foreseeable future.1 -
i11ionward✭✭✭Comrades, I don't think that sorcs are weak, I myself play with this build https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=515619, and I feel good. The problem is that in the game every DD is a healer for itself, and a set of maras make the healing situation even worse. It's not normal for a non-healer character to raise their HP from 10% to 90% with one GCD. Let the devs makes scaling healing skills from max magicka or stamina and all those meta DKs, wardens and NBs will be lowered to the normal level. And of course NERF MARAS BALM!
PS: Major Prophecy and Savagery in the class skills of the sorcerer it would not be bad.Edited by i11ionward on March 31, 2023 11:59AM1 -
ilawana✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »i think its a bit apples to oranges trying to compare a dmg shield ability and a healing ability
the sorc shield, definitely needs some improvement, and i personally on my sorc usually use the empowered ward for the +recovery bonuses, but to compare it to a burst heal does not make sense since the shield is not healing, its entirely different effects
now if your comparing say dark conversion with coagulating blood, the sorc version is very obviously weaker (full 1 sec gcd cast time, fixed unscaled heal, but the benefit is sustain)
The reason I compared hardened ward to coagulating blood is not because they are equal, but because they are equivalent. The only burst heal that a sorcerer has is twilight matriarch. A good skill with a lot of problems. Those problems make the matriarch extremely unreliable in pvp. Because of this, many sorcerer mains, including myself, consider hardened ward to be the sorcerer's equivalent to a skills like coagulating blood and resistant flesh.
Dark conversion isn't a burst heal ability (which is funny considering it is the highest burst heal you can get on a non-pet sorc). It is a resource sustain skill with the added bonus of a small heal. My only quarrel with conversion is the cast time. If ward was a better ability, that could actually absorb more than a single skill, then the small heal on conversion could potentially be enough to keep your health at a manageable level if you had a heal overtime skill on top of it.
I guess the big issue sorcerer has is that their shields break so quickly, and they don't have the healing to make up for it since they are built into max mag. So, the moment a shield breaks, your health plummets, and you have nothing to bring it back up. And anytime you try to go offensive, the shield will break in a single global cooldown. In order to keep the shield up (and thus keep your health up), you would have to stay on your shield bar 100% of the time and spam it. Other classes have hots to keep their health up while they go offensive. The strongest hot a magsorc has is healing ward (which is an incredibly strong hot), but it will break even faster than hardened ward, once again an unreliable heal.
So, since ward and class burst heals are equivalent, then I would propose that they have comparable effectiveness in actual combat situations. But that just isn't the case. It would seem that the idea is that burst heals have lower tooltips that get better when certain conditions are met (making them a little inconsistent), while hardened ward stays at a consistently mediocre level. I assume this because hardened ward has a higher tooltip than burst heals at its base. However, heals crit, they increase with class passives (every class has passives that increase healing, there are no shield passives for sorc), there are more buffs that effect healing than buffs that effect shields. So what we get are shields that are plain bad in actual pvp combat and heals that are excessively strong in the same combat situations.0 -
ilawana✭✭
Passives definitely need some love. As I've mentioned, every class has passives that increase their defense (typically healing or damage mitigation), sorc gets a small increase to max health when they summon a pet. I do actually like that the matriarch can be killed though. Allowing the matriarch to be targeted adds a nice bit of damage mitigation from ranged enemies, it also adds counterplay (which I am a huge proponent of). That being said, the health and resistances on the matriarch are definitely too low for the level of damage people are doing these days. Of course the idea is that your damage shields are supposed to protect your pets, but this clearly doesn't work since shields are weak and building into damage shields compromises the strength of the twilight's heal.Turtle_Bot wrote: »I, alongside many others, tried to explain all of this to the devs basically since the U35 hard nerfs went through, with numerous long threads.
All we got from months of feedback and discussion, noting down pain points, providing comparisons and data, on what needed to be fixed, which resulted in a general consensus of:
- a proper reliable burst heal that's not interruptible or tied to a killable pet
- reworks to passives to update them
- lastly access to major prophecy/savagery to better tie in crit surge as the class HoT
The devs completely ignored all of that information, and gave us slightly bigger shields that also scale off max health (great for pve tanking, but a useless scaling change for everyone else) and 1 morph of the execute deals all of its bonus damage in AoE (not even a buff to when it starts scaling from, 20% threshold is laughably low)....
And this!!! It's hard not to feel left out when all of the classes (save necromancer, I suppose) are getting buffed. Directly or indirectly. And then sorcerer gets nothing other than indirect nerfs. I know the combat team has a lot to do and a lot to juggle, but if we have time to give dragonknight major berserk, and we have time to buff magicka shalks into the stratosphere (along with new code), then we have time to edit some of the basic numbers on sorcerer's skills.Turtle_Bot wrote: »At this point, it seems that no-one on the team actually plays the class (or even cares about it) outside of roleplaying a zookeeper of daedric pets or hold left mouse button the class, because if they actually played the class or cared about how it's performing, they would have listened to the countless feedback threads provided by numerous long time sorcerer mains (of both pve and pvp) and actually implemented something closer to what was discussed instead of what they did, which has done nothing to fix the issues the class, and has only kept it in its awkward spot of run pets/HA for PvE and crutch on mara's + masters DW for PvP, the PvP option which is generic and performs the same, if not better, on the other classes...
What made it even worse, was the devs came out and responded to all the feedback with what was essentially: They think the class is fine and doesn't need any improvements. I.e. sorcerers can go <snip> themselves, they're not going to fix the class or even look at it for the foreseeable future.3 -
geonsocal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭you know what you don't see in cyrodiil anymore - sorcerers...
nightblades are getting pretty rare too...
lots and lots of dragonknights, wardens and necromancers though...
who knows what it will look like in six months though...
I used to use high damage/burst builds - but unless you wanna stay constantly moving around all the time - you have to build tanky...PVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place1 -
ilawana✭✭
That is my problem with mistform. Shields have been bad for a long time now and that hasn't changed (at least not in pvp). But at least sorc had streak. I am the type of player that likes to move around a lot. And I do mean a lot. Part of the reason that I enjoyed sorc for so long. With streak, I could actually take on quite a few people because I was able to kite and avoid a lot of incoming damage. That being said, defense was still horrendous, but at least I had something to crutch on. The last few times I hopped onto my magsorc, that wasn't the case. I was fighting a warden, of course the warden is too tanky for me to get any real damage into. The warden also had good damage. So, I kite and try to regain distance. I turn around and the warden is still right behind me and I am getting hit by their shalks. Turns out they had mistform. Same thing the other day with a dk. I streak away and the dk is still right behind me.I used to use high damage/burst builds - but unless you wanna stay constantly moving around all the time - you have to build tanky...
So, what little defense a sorc had with streak is now gone. And to be honest I am cautiously optimistic about the arcanist. Was sort of excited even, when I saw the portals. Now that mistform is changed, I can see the arcanist portal being useless as a movement skill in pvp right along with streak. Of course, not everyone is running mistform now, but there are enough people who are that makes playing a sorcerer even more frustrating than it was before. Would really like to see mistform go back to what it was. Adjust the numbers on it or something so it doesn't "break" pve, but the old version was better.2 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭you know what you don't see in cyrodiil anymore - sorcerers...
nightblades are getting pretty rare too...
lots and lots of dragonknights, wardens and necromancers though...
who knows what it will look like in six months though...
I used to use high damage/burst builds - but unless you wanna stay constantly moving around all the time - you have to build tanky...
Well, DK gets you everything: burst, sustained damage, speed, tanky, best healing in the game, and no need to invest in sustain at all.
NB still has high enough burst to do the mobile glass cannon mobility build, but it can also play a tanky brawler build due to second best healing in game.
Warden is OK, but below those two.
The other classes are not worth playing.4 -
eMKa8✭✭✭Nor sure if this thread still exists and persists however since update 42 i have found myself a very powerful magsorc build !
What are your experiences currently? And what stats do you all have.
I run maxmag and with the extra burstheal for my shield it allows me to not have to use a healing ability (because i also obviously use crit surge)
My magmag is currently 59,5K and therefore i hit hard and shield well. Health is als 32K
Ps i also dint like dark conversion or other morph because the 1 second cast time just does not work when it has to count
For the record : I am a NON pet sorc
Interested to hear from all of you
@Caribou77
@katorga
@ilawana
@geonsocal
@i11ionward
@Necrotech_Master
@Turtle_Bot0 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I've been testing a few builds out, I'm not the biggest fan of max mag stacking (I just really dislike the over time sustain and low base resistances), but I have found a couple of builds that I have been enjoying.
One is very tanky (35-40k resistances back bar with over 2k mag/stam recoveries), but the shields are smaller than a mag stacked build at only 10-11k shield with a 3-4k heal (13-15k total value) due to sitting at 39k mag (or 42k with max DDF stacks).
The other is a slightly more standard build, sitting closer to 50k max mag, but feels much squishier (despite the bigger wards). Probably just my playstyle, but I prefer the first build for how I play.
I might put together the full max mag build at some stage to really see what the fuss is about, but I really dislike the sub-2k recoveries on that build, it just feels like you need to pay too much attention to your mag instead of focusing on the fight at hand (for me).0 -
i11ionward✭✭✭Nor sure if this thread still exists and persists however since update 42 i have found myself a very powerful magsorc build !
What are your experiences currently? And what stats do you all have.
I run maxmag and with the extra burstheal for my shield it allows me to not have to use a healing ability (because i also obviously use crit surge)
My magmag is currently 59,5K and therefore i hit hard and shield well. Health is als 32K
Ps i also dint like dark conversion or other morph because the 1 second cast time just does not work when it has to count
For the record : I am a NON pet sorc
Interested to hear from all of you
@Caribou77
@katorga
@ilawana
@geonsocal
@i11ionward
@Necrotech_Master
@Turtle_Bot
I'm not a highly competent sorc player, but having played a couple BGs with max magic sorc after the patch, I felt like my survival went from C tier to A+ or even S tier.0 -
moo_2021✭✭✭✭No.
Sorc was already OP in BG the way other classes cannot be because of streak. People who build for resource pool shouldn't achieve the same damage as those who build for damage.
Why else would you raise mag pool to such degree? Streak, and the hardened ward that can scale off the mag pool, both allow skilled sorc to have extreme sustain with low health and even low resistance.
Your comparisons with other classes don't make any sense to me either. Normal warden, dk or even nb wouldn't even build that way, as they don't have such a shield. Also the entire DK's toolkit is in melee range while Sorc's are ranged.Edited by moo_2021 on March 16, 2024 7:02PM0 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭i primarily use my sorc as a pve healer, never really played a sorc as dps lol
i think the new vibrant shroud morph could be really good though as an alternative to combat prayer for additional buffs/debuffs0 -
geonsocal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭hi @eMKa8 , how are you healing?
my mag pool is only around low 30k's with my 2 mag sorc's...health for them is around 28k or so...
I think I have them and my necros wearing dark convergence too...
there is just sooooo much you can do to influence large scale melee's with that set...
and yes, I too am back to using my shields...got away from it for some years...PVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place0 -
eMKa8✭✭✭Hi All ,
Thanks for your replies. Somehow i missed your reactions but have now read them all.
My mag sorc build includes “gaze of sithis” mythic item which adds 3,5K health and 4k armor and 1200 sustain health. So it adds tankyness. I also slot the passive from psijic order on front bar for 5% minor protection (backbar i have the energy overload)
And then i have inner light which adds spell crit + 5% mag + 2% mag because of the passive
This build hits strong and stays strong (as far sorcs go , but the speed is low so it plays slow
.
Another build i have is a speedy build where i use mighty chudan and ring of the wild hunt as mythic. Its a fun quick paced build however squueshy and not always that strong ….. but fun. My 3 rings are also swift giving my base speed 36% times extra when in battle and 66% out of battle
Another build i have is the same but only 22% speed increase , and maw of infernal monster set.
@geonsocal
@Necrotech_Master
Is sustain really important to have higher then that? Mine is around 1000-12000 -
geonsocal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭hi @eMKa8 ,
sounds like you're having fun 😊
I've tried the tank sorc, pet sorc, lightening sorc, speed sorc...
they're all fun - what really matters though is that your playstyle matches your gear/skills...
yes 1,200 is a bit low, have a potion handy that provides mag/mag recovery and/or use the lightening staff with heavy attacks...I use dark conversion a bunch to help with mag sustain...
I have a lot of toons, so I generally just use epic food or drink...
for most mag toons I use witchmother's potent brew...
streak, haunting curse, hardened ward, crystal frags are 4 of the most fun and effective abilities in the game...I oft use soul assault for my sorcs' execute...
if you're doing team style pvp negate can help kill groups of folks...
geoEdited by geonsocal on March 24, 2024 6:03AMPVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place1 -
SandandStars✭✭✭✭✭u41 changes to hardened ward will help magsorc a lot (probly too much, unfortunately). alas
when i played my magsorc (quit eso a few months ago) I didnt even bother with shields/max magicka and relied on a draugrkin/charged/crushing shock build. Very boring to play, but the only way I could get decent damage and wear a defensive set on my magsorc.
2 -
eMKa8✭✭✭@geonsocal
I really like to play 2 set ups now with the magsorc. Its also the only toon i have (been playing 5 years on and off)
Tomorrow i will finally decide to build another one. Stam DK or stam warden. Which is best in terms of survivability and sustain?
That said one build i like ith magsorc now is
- ring of wild hunt (for speed and mobility)
- - crafty alfiq (max mag)
- Ancient grace (max mag)
- Maw of infernal monsterset (annoying for opponents)
Its a fun play0 -
Araneae6537✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@eMKa8
In the past (pre-U35) I liked to run Crafty Alfiq and Spinners on my mag sorc for high mag with some additional spell damage and pen. I don’t remember which monster set I used, I may have used two different pieces for extra mag, but I would probably choose a different one than Maw of the Infernal unless playing a pet sorc (Idk whether Daedric Prey increases dmg from procced pets) as I think it’s relatively easy to avoid the Daedroth.
As for what additional class you might enjoy, I would recommend a stamina or hybrid DK. I never played the class a lot at first because I don’t care the look of several of the abilities, but I enjoyed my DK in BGs this last Mayhem. There’s a lot of useful abilities and survivability.
I don’t think Warden is as strong in PvP, or in doing damage generally, but the survivability is also good. I should note that I haven’t played with my Warden as much for a long time and then it was primarily mag and I found the lack of an execute to be a pain point.1 -
eMKa8✭✭✭@Araneae6537
Omg i have not thought about procced daedric prey having an impact on my stats . If i dont have a daedric prey active then i get additional 10% mag and stam pool. But i should check if my maw of infernal negates that 10% boost ;-)
I would like to play a stamina build indeed but as it will only be my second build ever i seriously consider playing i want to make sure i make a good choice.
Is stam DK better and enjoyable to run compared to stamina nightblade
Its one of those 2 i want to run however i hear that stamblade is very difficult to master …0 -
Araneae6537✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Araneae6537
Omg i have not thought about procced daedric prey having an impact on my stats . If i dont have a daedric prey active then i get additional 10% mag and stam pool. But i should check if my maw of infernal negates that 10% boost ;-)
I would like to play a stamina build indeed but as it will only be my second build ever i seriously consider playing i want to make sure i make a good choice.
Is stam DK better and enjoyable to run compared to stamina nightblade
Its one of those 2 i want to run however i hear that stamblade is very difficult to master …
Surely the procced Daedroth doesn’t count against that… So it probably doesn’t get buffed by Daedric Prey either… Sorry for the confusion! I haven’t checked in either case but was grouping summoned and procced Daedra in my mind (you can have FOUR if you where the Hunger set too
).
Yes, yes, absolutely, unless you master using stealth and the summoned shade, you will be what I am when I take a nightblade into PvP — a squishblade!
It’s just totally different from anything PvE prepares you for. Of course there will be some differences with any class/build, but I think this is especially true of nightblade. Unless you really want to learn the stealthy playstyle, I think that you will have more fun and better success on Dragonknight. 
0 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Araneae6537 wrote: »Araneae6537
Omg i have not thought about procced daedric prey having an impact on my stats . If i dont have a daedric prey active then i get additional 10% mag and stam pool. But i should check if my maw of infernal negates that 10% boost ;-)
I would like to play a stamina build indeed but as it will only be my second build ever i seriously consider playing i want to make sure i make a good choice.
Is stam DK better and enjoyable to run compared to stamina nightblade
Its one of those 2 i want to run however i hear that stamblade is very difficult to master …
Surely the procced Daedroth doesn’t count against that… So it probably doesn’t get buffed by Daedric Prey either… Sorry for the confusion! I haven’t checked in either case but was grouping summoned and procced Daedra in my mind (you can have FOUR if you where the Hunger set too ).
Yes, yes, absolutely, unless you master using stealth and the summoned shade, you will be what I am when I take a nightblade into PvP — a squishblade! It’s just totally different from anything PvE prepares you for. Of course there will be some differences with any class/build, but I think this is especially true of nightblade. Unless you really want to learn the stealthy playstyle, I think that you will have more fun and better success on Dragonknight.
based on my understanding from reading threads of people testing this, ALL summoned pets (including proc pets) count towards the sorc passive, unless it was changed for live
this means like defiler, maw of the infernal, morkuldin, etc all count as pets and would change you to get the 10% hp boost instead of the mag and stam (so if you only had temp pets like this, you would be constantly flip flopping between 10% hp boost and 10% mag/stam boost lol)
the only "pet" that doesnt count towards this at all is companions, since they are treated as their own entities2 -
eMKa8✭✭✭@Necrotech_Master
Thank you for that advice! I did not think about that ! Switching from mag/stam to health is useless indeed. Definitely need to switch it up if it does not work well.0 -
eMKa8✭✭✭@Araneae6537
Thank you. I will go for dragonknight the. !
Dont want to go to difficult.
Is sorcerer actually a difficult pvp build to master compared to others? Its the only one i played in 5 years
Sometimes i win in BG with 18 kills and 5 deaths
But sometiles i die 14 times and only kill 5 …
So it changes drastically depending the players i am up against0 -
Araneae6537✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »Araneae6537 wrote: »Araneae6537
Omg i have not thought about procced daedric prey having an impact on my stats . If i dont have a daedric prey active then i get additional 10% mag and stam pool. But i should check if my maw of infernal negates that 10% boost ;-)
I would like to play a stamina build indeed but as it will only be my second build ever i seriously consider playing i want to make sure i make a good choice.
Is stam DK better and enjoyable to run compared to stamina nightblade
Its one of those 2 i want to run however i hear that stamblade is very difficult to master …
Surely the procced Daedroth doesn’t count against that… So it probably doesn’t get buffed by Daedric Prey either… Sorry for the confusion! I haven’t checked in either case but was grouping summoned and procced Daedra in my mind (you can have FOUR if you where the Hunger set too ).
Yes, yes, absolutely, unless you master using stealth and the summoned shade, you will be what I am when I take a nightblade into PvP — a squishblade! It’s just totally different from anything PvE prepares you for. Of course there will be some differences with any class/build, but I think this is especially true of nightblade. Unless you really want to learn the stealthy playstyle, I think that you will have more fun and better success on Dragonknight.
based on my understanding from reading threads of people testing this, ALL summoned pets (including proc pets) count towards the sorc passive, unless it was changed for live
this means like defiler, maw of the infernal, morkuldin, etc all count as pets and would change you to get the 10% hp boost instead of the mag and stam (so if you only had temp pets like this, you would be constantly flip flopping between 10% hp boost and 10% mag/stam boost lol)
the only "pet" that doesnt count towards this at all is companions, since they are treated as their own entities
Oh wow, I did not know this and it is the opposite of how I would have expected the passives to behave — thank you for the information!0 -
Araneae6537✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Araneae6537
Thank you. I will go for dragonknight the. !
Dont want to go to difficult.
Is sorcerer actually a difficult pvp build to master compared to others? Its the only one i played in 5 years
Sometimes i win in BG with 18 kills and 5 deaths
But sometiles i die 14 times and only kill 5 …
So it changes drastically depending the players i am up against
Haha, yes, I know the feeling! Depending both on one’s teammates and the players one is up against, you can go from feeling like you just might be getting good to getting absolutely steamrolled (or that’s my experience anyway)!
I would say that PvP itself takes time and effort to master and I am nowhere near that myself yet. (Have I mastered anything? I think I am strongest as a PvE healer, but there too I still learn and improve.) But I don’t think that sorcerer as a class is difficult, including in PvP. Nightblade is difficult, with significant potential payoff. Necromancer is difficult, but if anyone has found a way to make it payoff, they are keeping such knowledge well hidden…1 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Araneae6537 wrote: »Necrotech_Master wrote: »Araneae6537 wrote: »Araneae6537
Omg i have not thought about procced daedric prey having an impact on my stats . If i dont have a daedric prey active then i get additional 10% mag and stam pool. But i should check if my maw of infernal negates that 10% boost ;-)
I would like to play a stamina build indeed but as it will only be my second build ever i seriously consider playing i want to make sure i make a good choice.
Is stam DK better and enjoyable to run compared to stamina nightblade
Its one of those 2 i want to run however i hear that stamblade is very difficult to master …
Surely the procced Daedroth doesn’t count against that… So it probably doesn’t get buffed by Daedric Prey either… Sorry for the confusion! I haven’t checked in either case but was grouping summoned and procced Daedra in my mind (you can have FOUR if you where the Hunger set too ).
Yes, yes, absolutely, unless you master using stealth and the summoned shade, you will be what I am when I take a nightblade into PvP — a squishblade! It’s just totally different from anything PvE prepares you for. Of course there will be some differences with any class/build, but I think this is especially true of nightblade. Unless you really want to learn the stealthy playstyle, I think that you will have more fun and better success on Dragonknight.
based on my understanding from reading threads of people testing this, ALL summoned pets (including proc pets) count towards the sorc passive, unless it was changed for live
this means like defiler, maw of the infernal, morkuldin, etc all count as pets and would change you to get the 10% hp boost instead of the mag and stam (so if you only had temp pets like this, you would be constantly flip flopping between 10% hp boost and 10% mag/stam boost lol)
the only "pet" that doesnt count towards this at all is companions, since they are treated as their own entities
Oh wow, I did not know this and it is the opposite of how I would have expected the passives to behave — thank you for the information!
i havent fully tested to see if this changed for live, but thats how it was reported to function on PTS, but something like that i wouldnt expect to have really changed between PTS and live (there were no mention of this in the patch notes)1 -
eMKa8✭✭✭Hi there
@Necrotech_Master @Araneae6537
I just checked the maw of infernal proccing and effect on health / stam / mag.
Its actually quite strange.
Max health indeed goes up 10%
Max mag indeed goes down 10%
Stam stays the same and does not change ????
So strange because the passive adds either health … or … mag and stam
Bug ? Or did they forget to change?0 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭it sounds like the passive is functioning correctly (triggering when the maw of infernal procs), but it sounds like there might be something bugged with the passive if its not boosting both mag and stam
does it do that with any other pets?
and another thing ive seen reported is that the sorcs ball lightning also triggers this passive even though thats arguably not a pet lol2